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4 channel class D amplifier on sub bass duty?

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Topic: 4 channel class D amplifier on sub bass duty?
Posted By: Simpson_
Subject: 4 channel class D amplifier on sub bass duty?
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 5:54pm
I'm looking for an amp to push 4 X 4ohm 700w scoop loaded drivers. I have currently only got 2 loaded as I'm waiting on my other 2 scoops to be built but I mean for future reference.

Anyway I've seen a class D amplifier that states it is 4 X 2100w @ 4 ohm for a relatively good price (£900) from a relatively new company and it does have good reviews from what I've seen. My question is would a 4 channel amplifier be suitable for playing 35-85hz for prolonged periods? 

Alternitivley I could sell my two current 4 ohm subwoofers and basically swap for 8 ohm varients and purchase a 2 channel amplifier and push 2 subs per channel.

Little bit lost for what I should do here so any advice would be greatly appreciated đź‘Ť



Replies:
Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 8:14pm
swapping out for 8 Ohm drivers whatever way you go with amps.
Bluearan do a 4 channel amp that may be worth a look - Jam Q10 which, something I like about it is that it is rated to drive a 4 Ohm load per channel and 2 Ohms at a push and each channel is independant as in if one goes down you can disconnect it and carry on using the other three. 


Posted By: Simpson_
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 8:20pm
So you think regardless it's worth swapping out to 8ohm drivers? Thanks for the advice but what's your reading behind this? Cheers đź‘Ť


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 06 July 2018 at 9:02pm
should have said if not to difficult, would just give more options re amps, easier to get replacement drivers and also to expand the system in the future if you decide to. Not a must do.


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 8:13pm
almost all "cheap" lightweight class D 4ch amps are not designed to do sub duty on all 4 channels.. they simply struggle to deliver the required current.. (either pop fuses or pop internally, depending on design/quality..)

either balance the loads and use 2 channels for kick/top duty to keep the 4ch amp/s happy or swap for 8ohm drivers and a dedicated sub amp running 4ohm per Ch, or wire the 4ohm drivers in series and use 2 "cheap" but proven bridged amps capable of delivering about 2kw at 8ohm bridge/1kw 4ohm stereo..



Posted By: Simpson_
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 8:23pm
Thanks for the advise! Does wiring in series have any cons or is it fine to run as normal? So 2 x 4ohm drivers would be wired to 8ohm? 

Looks like my best bet it with buying 8ohm drivers and an amp used such as matrix 7k / 10k and running 2 per channel at 4ohm. 

Have you got any amp a reccomredations?




Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 8:42pm

What about FFA? For some reason Full Fat Audio is always forgotten which is shocking considering I first heard about them decades ago back on Squat Juice when Noise Control was making some good noise with them.


http://www.fullfataudio.com/products/" rel="nofollow - http://www.fullfataudio.com/products/  


Best Regards, 



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 8:58pm
I heard Linea  Research on sub duty at the weekend, not cheap but they did deliver Smile


Posted By: re-production
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 9:40pm
We run Linea's on our subs and they absolutely spank it even on a domestic power supply.

You will be looking at around £3k for any decent 4 channel DSP amp though.


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

What about FFA? For some reason Full Fat Audio is always forgotten 



I love those amps. close to 8 years of use without issues...
still I'd not recommend their 4 channel amps to run 4 scoops with 4 ohm drivers, you'd better go with the 6000/8000/10000 and run at 2 ohms, as they can do it and would deliver the sub better than the 4 ch, the latter sound fast and accurate but would clip sooner


-------------
http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 10:58pm
did St Pauls carnival with two SAE PQM13. each amp had two channels bridged into a pair of tapped horns with 1500W Fane drivers. other two channels running mid and tops. First time in a while I've had no volume restriction and a 32A supply. I thought they performed well - proper skull vibrating basslines.


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 09 July 2018 at 11:35pm
got plenty of sae 4ch ones.. guess i know their limits quite well by now.. other "cheap" similar ones are no exception to the common rule imo... compare the same cabs on say k10s or k20s and let me know your thoughts.. - specially with heavy cones and strong force/load on the cone the 4ch jobbies lose control quickly in comparison, imho.. 



Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 8:25am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

got plenty of sae 4ch ones.. guess i know their limits quite well by now.. other "cheap" similar ones are no exception to the common rule imo... compare the same cabs on say k10s or k20s and let me know your thoughts.. - specially with heavy cones and strong force/load on the cone the 4ch jobbies lose control quickly in comparison, imho.. 


I think you need to try a Saturn 10 Alex,  or the new higher power version ;)


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

What about FFA? For some reason Full Fat Audio is always forgotten 



I love those amps. close to 8 years of use without issues...
still I'd not recommend their 4 channel amps to run 4 scoops with 4 ohm drivers, you'd better go with the 6000/8000/10000 and run at 2 ohms, as they can do it and would deliver the sub better than the 4 ch, the latter sound fast and accurate but would clip sooner


Why not the 6004?

1500 watts per channel (4 Channels) @ 4 ohms

That is twice the rating of the speakers (700 watts) which is far more headroom long-term than strapping a 2 ohm per channel amplifier into 2 ohms and living off of momentary burst ratings. 


Best Regards, 



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: Simpson_
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 12:31pm
.



Posted By: Simpson_
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 12:35pm
Struggling to find reviews on that amp but I've heard great things. What's your experiences like with all 4 channels running on sub/bass? 

Thanks 


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 2:14pm
DO NOT use 4 ch amp all channels driven by sub or bass!
Currently there is almost no amp on the market which would perform good by this setup.
Split the load between channels, one shall drive low, another mid then another high speakers.
For the subs a strong dedicated good low-performance amplifier matched the needs of your transducers is mandatory.


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

[QUOTE=Elliot Thompson]

What about FFA? For some reason Full Fat Audio is always forgotten 



I love those amps. close to 8 years of 


Why not the 6004?

1500 watts per channel (4 Channels) @ 4 ohms

That is twice the rating of the speakers (700 watts) which is far more headroom long-term than strapping a 2 ohm per channel amplifier into 2 ohms and living off of momentary burst ratings. 


Best Regards, 


I've run 6004 on upper bass from 2011 to january, then moved to a 10000, and i noticed an improvement. 6004 was fine dont get me wrong


-------------
http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 10 July 2018 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

[QUOTE=Elliot Thompson]

What about FFA? For some reason Full Fat Audio is always forgotten 



I love those amps. close to 8 years of 


Why not the 6004?

1500 watts per channel (4 Channels) @ 4 ohms

That is twice the rating of the speakers (700 watts) which is far more headroom long-term than strapping a 2 ohm per channel amplifier into 2 ohms and living off of momentary burst ratings. 


Best Regards, 


I've run 6004 on upper bass from 2011 to january, then moved to a 10000, and i noticed an improvement. 6004 was fine dont get me wrong


Possibly your speakers are more powerful why you see an improvement?

 

Bear in mind the speakers are 700 watts so, there will be 800 watts of available headroom at Simpson’s disposal. That is more than the majority of users out there that use Scoops and piggyback their amplifier down to 2 ohms per channel for each loudspeaker.

 

Once you exceed the loudspeakers program rating (700 watts) times two and above (1500 watts) you have the speaker operating at optimum performance. This will give you the most volume from the loudspeaker without clipping the amplifier during the process. 

 

Best Regards,



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 11 July 2018 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

got plenty of sae 4ch ones.. guess i know their limits quite well by now.. other "cheap" similar ones are no exception to the common rule imo... compare the same cabs on say k10s or k20s and let me know your thoughts.. - specially with heavy cones and strong force/load on the cone the 4ch jobbies lose control quickly in comparison, imho.. 


I think you need to try a Saturn 10 Alex,  or the new higher power version ;)

guess i am sorted now re. sub amps.. ;) 
I am not saying 4ch amps cant do bass 40ish hz up, pqm13/tsa 4-1300 etc. do bass 4ohm nominal without major issues, even on all 4ch but most will struggle delivering low notes at low impedances and rather heavy cones - high current - though , the saturn10 will likely be no exception as its basically similar design and layout as almost all 4ch chinese jobbies, lab based, no pun intended! Happy to A/B your Amps driving 8 Orbit3s vs pqm13s, k10s, k20s anytime mate - in my books almost all 4ch amp are mainly suited for mixed loads though, which makes sense to me.. 





Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 11 July 2018 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

almost all "cheap" lightweight class D 4ch amps are not designed to do sub duty on all 4 channels.. they simply struggle to deliver the required current.. (either pop fuses or pop internally, depending on design/quality..)


Please say this again, some people here, really expect free lunch.

You've got 4x 4 ohm drivers ?

Drive 4x drivers with Crest CA18, Crown Macrotech MA5000VZ, or 1x driver per channel with 2x JBL MPX1200/QSC 4050HD.

No cheap 4x channel Class D, will come near any of the above combinations.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 11 July 2018 at 9:52pm
no 4ohm driver business here, all are 8ohm nominal lev.. 
2 of our subs are about 6ohm in reality, 4 kicks are about 3ohm..

k20s do handle sub properly, pair of subs per ch, k10s do handle 4 kicks properly, per ch..

4ch amps are suitable for small scale jobs or mid/hi mixed jobbies imho..

no free lunch there imho.. 


Posted By: re-production
Date Posted: 11 July 2018 at 11:50pm
powersoft X8? Linea research 44m20..?


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 7:39am
Originally posted by re-production re-production wrote:

powersoft X8? Linea research 44m20..?


Of course, but not cheap. People want to get away with 800 quid new stuff and expect 4 x 1500 at Powersoft and Linea ability. Nope.  You want cheap like that buy two iNuke 6000 (or the new one when it arrives).  Me, I bought two JBL MPX and 4 castors for less than 400 quid.


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 8:12am
Heard the Linea's on sub duty Saturday, very impressed even compared to the CA18s, but as you say not cheap.



Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 9:40am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

no 4ohm driver business here, all are 8ohm nominal lev..


Hi mate, 4 ohm driver comment, was for OP.

Have always considered what 9001 would be like, driving 2x 4 ohm drivers per side..


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 9:50am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

got plenty of sae 4ch ones.. guess i know their limits quite well by now.. other "cheap" similar ones are no exception to the common rule imo... compare the same cabs on say k10s or k20s and let me know your thoughts.. - specially with heavy cones and strong force/load on the cone the 4ch jobbies lose control quickly in comparison, imho.. 


I think you need to try a Saturn 10 Alex,  or the new higher power version ;)

guess i am sorted now re. sub amps.. ;) 
I am not saying 4ch amps cant do bass 40ish hz up, pqm13/tsa 4-1300 etc. do bass 4ohm nominal without major issues, even on all 4ch but most will struggle delivering low notes at low impedances and rather heavy cones - high current - though , the saturn10 will likely be no exception as its basically similar design and layout as almost all 4ch chinese jobbies, lab based, no pun intended! Happy to A/B your Amps driving 8 Orbit3s vs pqm13s, k10s, k20s anytime mate - in my books almost all 4ch amp are mainly suited for mixed loads though, which makes sense to me.. 




No, the Saturn 10s are nothing like most Chinese 4 channels, nothing like a Lab / FP biased amp at all... they are class D not class TD, completely different, and they sound different to all the class TD amps ive tested, imo much tighter and controlled on bass.

Lots of nonsense talked in this thread...




-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 9:58am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

almost all "cheap" lightweight class D 4ch amps are not designed to do sub duty on all 4 channels.. they simply struggle to deliver the required current.. (either pop fuses or pop internally, depending on design/quality..)


Please say this again, some people here, really expect free lunch.

You've got 4x 4 ohm drivers ?

Drive 4x drivers with Crest CA18, Crown Macrotech MA5000VZ, or 1x driver per channel with 2x JBL MPX1200/QSC 4050HD.

No cheap 4x channel Class D, will come near any of the above combinations.

Ive got a "cheap" class d here that will spank all of the above driving 4 x 8 ohm drivers, might not give you that nasty distorted sound you get from a VZ though...  Just because you tested a couple of lab clones years ago that blew up does not mean there is nothing out there that will do the job.   


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Ive got a "cheap" class d here that will spank all of the above driving 4 x 8 ohm drivers, might not give you that nasty distorted sound you get from a VZ though...  Just because you tested a couple of lab clones years ago that blew up does not mean there is nothing out there that will do the job.   


The OP has 4x 4 ohm drivers.

A number of experienced Macrotech repairers, have informed me, much of the bad rep/distortion reports from MA5000VZ, is due to amps not repaired with official Crown O/P transistors.

Don't get me wrong, personally I would only buy QSC, Powersoft for sub, but for 2x 4 ohm drivers per channel, MA5000VZ, with full suite of "correct" O/P transistors, would sound decent.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 10:26am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Just because you tested a couple of lab clones years ago that blew up does not mean there is nothing out there that will do the job.   



Would be great if the "Superior" lab clones have improved. First time I heard one, sub notes had me almost dribbling...

But few years ago, for approx 12x months in London, loads of crews bought into various Lab Clones, and pretty much everyone of them had amps go down during gigs. Many of these crews have moved on to K20s, some now on X4s.

So to me, save up for Powersoft, and life is easy.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 10:09pm
[/QUOTE]

Ive got a "cheap" class d here that will spank all of the above driving 4 x 8 ohm drivers, might not give you that nasty distorted sound you get from a VZ though...  Just because you tested a couple of lab clones years ago that blew up does not mean there is nothing out there that will do the job.   
[/QUOTE]


Pray tell?  What is this amp?


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 12 July 2018 at 10:20pm
its one he is trying to sell...

even top flight multi-channel amps like powersoft x series benefit hugely by mixing loads - on an X8 i would recommend 50% mid / high channels and 50% bass/ sub. Same with X4's. 

Im always amazed how small a proportion of the overall budget people allocate to their amplifiers. Large speaker stacks may get more interest, but without the right amps behind them its all rather pointless.


-------------
“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 13 July 2018 at 8:24am
Lets look at this from an engineering angle.

Why does a 4 ch amp not do it but a 2 channel (ie iNuke) can?

If the 4 ch amp has completely separate modules like the JAM one then why not?
Is it because of the shared capacitance? If so then why not stop all this 1u bull and make it 2u with another 50 quids worth of capacitors? Fashion? 1u is silly, it's not needed, damn things weigh nothing anyhow so what is wrong with 2u? If Powersoft had made all theirs 2u then 1u would not be in vogue as much. So in reality something like a 4 chan Class D made into a case that was big enough with more capacitors and separate power supplies would be possible? Hey maybe two mains inlets?


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 13 July 2018 at 9:11am
Its not just down to how many capacitors thats more to do with its burst capability than what level of current the supply can deliver.

There seems to be a few people saying "i tried xyz 4 channel amp and it wasent ideal for running heavy bass on all channels, so all other 4 channels must be the same..."    Not all 4 channel amps are built the same, some have higher long term power capability vs burst capability than others, eg the 44m20 supply will give about 3KW long term, the JAM Q10 will give over 1KW per channel iirc so over 4KW total, from memory i think it was around 1.4KW per channel i will check, this new 4 channel im testing has a supply rated at 7KW for a 16K amp, its not the only factor, burst / storage capability and output stage efficiency also matter, the point im making is not all amps are the same.

The original question was can a budget 4 channel amp power 4 x 4 ohm 700w bass drivers,  there are many out there that can, you dont need a powersoft K10 / K20 for that...  

Im often amazed at how people think they must have a expensive (normally Powersoft) amp to do job (like power 4 x 700w bass drivers) when there are many very decent budget alternatives,  more expensive does not equal better if its overkill for the application, And yes CSG i am selling amplifiers, much like you are selling powersoft amplifiers :)


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 13 July 2018 at 1:44pm
X4 is nowhere near to 2x K10 once really need to deliver power despite marketing bureau suggest.
Even on 4 Ohms.
You need to -very carefully- split frequency bands across four channels to have acceptable dynamics and not collapsing power rails.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 July 2018 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

IAnd yes CSG i am selling amplifiers, much like you are selling powersoft amplifiers :)


TB, which lab copies are you selling?

In terms of original manufacturer/distributor?

Any pics of innards?

EDIT:After 2x years waiting, research, I once bought 4x FP10000Q lab copies, as they were some of the higher specified/better built.

PSU on one of them still died, powering 1X Fane 18XB, on 1x channel.

So that was the end of trying Lab copies for me.



-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 13 July 2018 at 3:05pm
He's said multiple times they aren't LabG copies, they're pure class D, not class TD.



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