PKN XE 10000
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=102450
Printed Date: 24 April 2024 at 2:04am
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Topic: PKN XE 10000
Posted By: boots-hifi
Subject: PKN XE 10000
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 10:26pm
| Whats the verdict on the PKN XE 10000? Currently rebuilding my racks and this looks like a solid contender against other offerings or Powersoft, MC2, FFA etc.I’ve had experience with the XE 6000 but was left unimpressed with its performance on bass. I want to keep all the amps uniform, and not mix and match. I’d be powering F1 218s at 2.66. Any advice would be greatly welcome before I hand any cash over. |
Replies:
Posted By: knet94
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 10:33pm
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I don't think anyone in England has actually seen one, never mind used one Ben. Correct me if I'm wrong guys. |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 10:49pm
| Blu Aran are selling them so presumably they must be in use? |
Posted By: RONAN
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 11:09pm
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I have used the xe10000 and also sold some to customers.. one individual ordered one based on the experience he had running xe4000 & 6000 (4 years, four nights per week live band, without any issues). Years ago I set up a demo comparing a powersoft k3 & k10 2 way system, with an xe4000/6000 system.. On that occasion the xe4000 sounded nicer on top but the 6000 reached clip limit long before the k10.. Not so sure now, I think the xe10000 will easily out perform the k10, especially if your driving 2 x 8ohm 18" drivers per side. ------------- EVENT SOUND RON. |
Posted By: RONAN
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 11:17pm
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one thing that did impress me about the pkn was , I had xe6000/xe10000 driving 4 x18" subs & 4 12"&1.5 horn tops, So both amps running roughly 4 ohms.. Flat out in a marquee live band the kelsy amp meter on the rack distro never got over 8 amps !, most of the night around 6 .. How do you explain that ? ------------- EVENT SOUND RON. |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 22 August 2018 at 11:30pm
| Not a lover of Powersoft other than on bass duties as I find quite dry sounding, obvious choice would be e90s/e45s/e25s however the PKNs do sound very good so possible 10k/6k/4K rack combo would work depending on the 10k delivering. It’s priced quite respectabley too. |
Posted By: knet94
Date Posted: 23 August 2018 at 12:00am
Ben, I think that I'm thinking about the XE 10000U which I've never noticed as being in stock at Blue Aran. Still would be nice to hear from someone in England to counteract my statement. Respect due still Ronan.
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boots-hifi wrote:Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 24 August 2018 at 5:17pm
Have you had a good listen to the X series? i too never liked the sound of the K series on anything other than bass ( although bypassing the input A-D converters by using AES inputs helped a lot here), the X series sounds very smooth and hifi to me, and i suspect could be a very good option for F1. ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 24 August 2018 at 7:49pm
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XE10000 is stronger than K10, it is more like the K20 on 4 Ohms. However it is 4 Ohms optimized amp so you should not go lower in load impedance if you want the best sound. It is proven to give decent headroom on 2* 8R (2500W..) woofers per channel. Physical compare: It can deliver 210V or so to 4 Ohms load which is lot more than X series from Powersoft, also more than K10. The XE10000 has already bridged circuit (just like the XD and other XE PKN amps) which is better than Powersoft's single ended "half-bridged Class-D" circuits. If you want to go bellow 4 Ohms go with Powersoft K10/K20, otherwise the XE10000 is better! |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 12:29am
| It's better because you can't bridge it or go below 4 ohms without compromising the unit? Okay. Shame most '4 ohm nominal' systems dip below 4 ohms, regularly, eh? A bridged X4 can deliver 300v before clip, by the way. So if you compare apples to apples, considering the X4 is half bridge, you full bridge it and also have an amp that is aimed at 4 ohm usage. Plus a world class DSP and library of presets. |
Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 7:27am
DSP does not solve the issue that Powersoft failed to exploit the advantages of three phase operation and they have put a *weak* undersized power supply into the X4. A 2KW power supply is simply NOT enough for a 20KW amp... 1. Here are the rectifier diodes of the power supply -- With very small heatsink => small heat dissipated because no serious current 2. There are very small fuses, 16A maybe? these fuses are not used in amplifier what can do 100A+ output, just check the K series with much beefier fuses. 3. There is minimal heatsinking of the amplifier parts because this amp can not do high crest factors. We have measured it that time and I can confirm 4x ~470W capability instead of 4x ~5000W.. :-D I see their bad modules sold with fancy DSP expensively, bit pity. Is not it? X4 has around 190Joules / ch XE10000 has 270Joules / ch  I uploaded this picture again because it mysteriously disappeared. I think that equipment shall be judged by its true physical construction and not based on marketing crap. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 7:39am
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I think that equipment should be judged by field testing and perhaps availability? Oddly enough, there’s a lot of these out there working real gigs week in week out with great results. Not only on our own shows. What about volts? I thought speakers were voltage devices playing music? Unless you’re making the tea, milk and two for me. Bigger numbers on a spec sheet is great, but it doesn’t put food on the table. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 9:05am
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i hope the picture stays up, i think it shows the internals of one of the best pieces of industrial design that i have seen in a long time, and real world testing and usage under arduous conditions backs that up. In-fact next time i have one of my X8's open for cleaning ill take some nice pictures of that for you too... To be fair, if PKN could add a good DSP platform, along with digital signal routing options they would probably have a very good and useful amplifier platform, but in this day and age not to have these features is a serious weakness in the touring market, and as such market penetration will remain very limited, despite how many joules storage, or how good an arc welder they are... ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 11:41am
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Quote by CSG. To be fair, if PKN could add a good DSP platform, along with digital signal routing options they would probably have a very good and useful amplifier platform, but in this day and age not to have these features is a serious weakness in the touring market, and as such market penetration will remain very limited, despite how many joules storage, or how good an arc welder they are... 100% THIS
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Posted By: RONAN
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 5:22pm
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This is a terrible forum for lads answering questions they were not even asked... I believe the point of this thread was to ask an opinion regarding the PKN xe10000 ? . We all know Powersoft make good amps, so too do Labgrupen & Linea research etc. etc.. They are all pretty good depending on your application needs and budget.. Regarding built in dsp and digital inputs , lots don't need or like using them..Is there a point in buying something you don't need ? Maybe this user intends using an external xta type dsp.. (one that doesn't need a laptop to adjust or change presets).. What if this amp is to be used for simple pub /club type gigs and doesn't need a digital input. I would suggest if you contact "Blue aron" they would set up an ab test with other similar amps and hear for yourself.. My experience has been great with the xe10000 as we mostly drive 2 x18" per side, however I have also driven 3 per side 2.6 ohms no issues and lots of headroom. ------------- EVENT SOUND RON. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 6:09pm
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off course - there is nothing wrong in using an external DSP if that is your preference, and likewise there is nothing wrong at all in using analogue signal distribution, but at this price point ( 3950EUR is right up there with all the other top tier options) it does seem feature poor and it will restrict the take-up of PKN for a lot of users. but no bother either way, its a free country and all that. I would be very surprised if blue aran would be willing to set up an AB against amplifiers of similar calibre if they don't already own them. And whilst we are at it, thats another issue against the take-up of PKN, the lack of proper trade distribution, larger companies are not going to purchase their stock through a retailer, and they are not going to want to purchase their stock direct from a factory the other side of Europe, without local warranty / repair / tech support being available. It may interest you to know that i had a few racks full of PKN's quite a few years ago, and found them to be excellent amplifiers so have absolutely nothing against them... ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 8:52pm
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Same reason Matrix amps don’t make sense in the pro audio world from a business point of view, their distribution model. Nothing wrong with the amps.
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 9:54pm
| £3950 inc VAT is K20 money, possibly with DSP if you’re lucky. So yes it’s a fair comparison. |
Posted By: RONAN
Date Posted: 25 August 2018 at 11:47pm
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No your way off there on price, the xe10000 offers good value (in my opinion).. The last Manufacturers suggested retail price (Msrp) was €2600 ex vat. that's quiet a long way from £3950 stl.. So are we all sure we are looking at the same amp model ?
------------- EVENT SOUND RON. |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 26 August 2018 at 12:22am
| The XE10000 (not 'U') model is currently on Blue Aran's website for £2k ex VAT retail price. If you are a genuine trade user there is a good chance you'd be paying less than that. Doesn't look that unreasonable to me. |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 26 August 2018 at 7:34am
Exactly why I’m looking at investing in a few. The other PKNs are very reliable, we will be using this weekend again at carnival as we have for many a year now. My issue is not the lack of features ie inbuilt DSP but if it can perform rated specs (or as close as) and how it sounds.
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Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 26 August 2018 at 1:57pm
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I already have LAKE processing in the racks, We do not want to replace that. I do not want to processing separately each channels neither, things are more simpler ( ~ sounds better) with LESS invasive processing! XE10000 compared to the 6000 models gives lot more headroom and more tight control of the speakers yet the sound quality is bit warmer, as far as we have experienced. It definitely goes lot deeper in low frequencies than the 6000, feels already on low power. But I do not know why, maybe the higher rails? Be careful with settings of limiters and gain, the XE10000 has the potential to kill speakers pretty fast, much faster than 6000... Even sometimes you do not feel that the woofer would be running way over-driven due limiters. |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 1:05pm
| So I've taken the plunge and purchased a XE10000 from BluAran. If anyone fancies setting up a good old fashion amp shoot out let me know. |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 4:25pm
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Yeah, I'm up for that. Amps I have around: - Crown MA12000i, MA5002VZ - Powersoft T604, T602, T304 - Various Behringer Let me know where and when. Chris ------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 4:52pm
Call it Manchester with plenty of notice, and I can probably add K20, X4/X8, MC2 Delta, Linea 44M20 and maybe even an XTA APA into the pot, plus some subs that can take the juice  I've also got the tools to take frequency response and distortion measurements out the arse of the amps. |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 5:10pm
got the MK1 SAE PQM13 and another more recent version.
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Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 5:14pm
| Please do this.. Just find some big labG too please! |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 02 December 2019 at 9:16pm
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Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 04 December 2019 at 3:16pm
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Be aware that PKN has + and - outputs both live, need to have proper "balanced HV probes" << Not very common! Otherwise huge fire is guaranteed :-D our Martin SUBs got new life when driving with XE10000 (after the 6000 amps) even not going with Voltage above ~170V set on the internal limiters of the amp.
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 December 2019 at 3:44pm
Not interested in bench tests, we're driving speakers, not banks of copper in a bucket of water. You can measure the frequency response of an amplifier including DSP performance - if the amp has it - quite easily using a decent transformer network, and I have a dedicated device for this, as well as easy tapping of output voltage using a TrueRMS meter for devices that don't offer built-in impedance tracking. It's also much better to use a calibrated RTA platform and SPL measurement with an adjusted input stimulus to ensure that the same amount of voltage gain / multiplier is being applied. That makes it much easier to compare the 'tone' of an amp rather than getting into a pissing contest of pure loudness. That can of course be done, to see which amp is able to deliver the most peak and long-term SPL by using simple Leq measurements as well as peak hold. I can also track current draw to see roughly how efficient each unit is, although this is a place that you can generally trust the manufacturer's data if they're a decent company. You don't sell hundreds of amps to proper installs without thermal dissipation and current draw data... |
Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 04 December 2019 at 7:34pm
Please proceed with this test so we can once and for all end this pkn debate hahaha, seriously genuinely interested in the results even a bit hyped 
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Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 04 December 2019 at 8:56pm
| So the amp turned up today. Had a quick play with it, single 18" reflex loaded with PD184. Sounded really good, better than a 6000 which I find quite untonal. Appears to be plenty of power available. Obviously this needs to be tested properly and compared to similar amps but on first impressions I'm happy with it. Just waiting on Kyle to get back to me with a date. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 December 2019 at 11:29pm
In all honesty it’s going to be January, and then in our new spot perhaps whilst it’s a building site. Otherwise March. Lots on! |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 05 December 2019 at 1:19pm
| Happy to do an a/b in a venue before if anybody has any ideas. |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 06 December 2019 at 4:40pm
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I can do early January, but later on that month could be tricky. March would probably be better. Here's the list of amps we've (probably) got available so far: - Powersoft - T304, T604, T602, K20, X4, X8 - MC2 Delta - Linea 44M20 - PKN XE10000 - Crown - MA12000i, MA5002VZ - SAE PQM13 Should be an interesting day. Chris ------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 06 December 2019 at 6:33pm
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Depending on timing I can add a updated sae pcm 20 (what ben at elements audio is selling as the ck 26,) and a matrix xt6004 if anyone is interested. I'd like to see how the ck26 compares to the pkn. Suggest we run it all from a wonky old genny just to keep the speakerplans spirit alive.
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Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 06 December 2019 at 10:19pm
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I've started a new thread here: https://forum.speakerplans.com/amp-shootout-2020_topic104565.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/amp-shootout-2020_topic104565.html for the amp shootout. I'd be interested to put the Matrix 6004 against my Powersoft T604. Chris ------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 06 December 2019 at 10:21pm
I’m afraid I won’t let you plug a Matrix amp into my cabinets and drive it to the limit. Unless you’re willing to foot a recone bill should the amp fail. |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 06 December 2019 at 11:35pm
| I assume they're all cheap Chinese pd1850 copies at £61 each? |
Posted By: boots-hifi
Date Posted: 11 December 2020 at 1:28am
| Due to current circumstances I'm considering selling my 10k Pkn. I'd really rather not but an expensive divorce along with liquidation of my assets I may be open to sensible offers. PM directly on here if anyones interested. Sorry mods, understand the normal sale rules but my hands are tied so please delete this post if its a step to far. |
Posted By: DjLeco
Date Posted: 22 December 2020 at 12:41am
Very good and respectable posting! Cheers mate! For all Powersoft lovers, I put again this video, showing REAL ACTING of K10, you judge! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjGHKoTKRjk Compaired to one olsdchool Crown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO_26jekWUw And to the little brother of XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tWFikrMxHo ------------- I'm A Stupid SMART Romanian... |