Those of you who have blown amp, drivers, trying to get 2kwpc @ 4 ohm, after believing hearsay.

Please comment here, people are still doing this.

corell wrote: what exactly is the "hearsay" ? that it's Output is 2000w @4 Ohms or that it blows Drivers?

https://forum.speakerplans.com/amp-to-drive-4x-pd-1850_topic42337_page3.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/amp-to-drive-4x-pd-1850_topic42337_page3.html

dOpeShack wrote: I drove 2 PD.1850 per side of a proline and clipped (it is my fault, still it clipped real quickly) and burned two PD.1850 out of the 4. Not enough headroom. I got a void inf8 now which i bought for 1000euros. What people recommend in here with the proline is bridge it to drivge only two PD.1850, then you have plenty of headroom. But then for 4 scoops you'd still need two prolines, and then can get a high end amp like the void for the same price. PEACE

https://forum.speakerplans.com/proline-3000-powering-hogs-q_topic102193_page2.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/proline-3000-powering-hogs-q_topic102193_page2.html

rosssss224 wrote: I read forums, deduced it would be fine, blew 4 drivers, regretted even trying. Now face £££ recone bill and need to get an inf8 instead. Just dont want someone to make my mistake (again) also bought the proline new for £550 and wont be able to sell it for anything less than £350 but it will make a solid kick amp. If you do use it buy an inline attenuator (-10 or -15dB) to make sure the limiter is catching peaks.

corell wrote: what exactly is the "hearsay" ? that it's Output is 2000w @4 Ohms or that it blows Drivers?

Do you have test figures stating 2000w @ 4 ohms, for 40-60hz?

munkey wrote: I ran 4 v18 loaded scoops for 3 years off a proline with no problems and would have people commenting on how loud the scoops were all the time. They were used nearly every weekend for 5-24 hours at a time.the drivers and amp were sold, still fully functional. Always limited off my ultradrive

IMHO, great in 8 ohm stereo, 4 ohm bridge, OK in 4 ohm stereo, but not enough to fully drive 2x 1kw drivers per channel, with bass heavy material.

From at least 10 years ago, someone here said, amp good for 2x15s per channel at 4 ohms, but not 2x 18s pet channel.

I sold mine because although I never clip my pa system some of my mates do ease the level up a bit so I only used the Proline 3000 amps once at a party and wasn't prepared to keep using them if they definately would send the subs drivers into hell. Like I say I never tested the RMX4050HD alongside the Proline 3000 but I can say that although i'm underpowering my subs by about 200 watts per sub the RMX4050HD is definately capable of 40hz power continuously and my subs you can feel the sub bass in your stomach.

I think if the amps are that dangerous to drivers then we need to put the word out to make sure no-one buys them and instead buys something with half decent clip protection.

The problem is not really the amp.

It's the people who incorrectly repeat the results of the German lab test.

Lab test said 2kwpc at 4 ohms @ 80hz !!!

That does not mean amp will do 2kwpc @ 4 ohms at 40 - 60hz, so people who think they can get that, clip the amp trying, and oh well..

Let us remember Crown MA3600VZ, will also eat drivers when out of steam, as that had no inbuilt clip circuitry!!!

Because when they clip, just once, they cause a lot more damage than other amps in the same scenario. This is not hearsay or demonetization. I've owned one and the way it went from OK to nasty noise is not right. BPSound had one in install and it killed a load of Wembley B Lines and it was behind a Cloud Limiter.

 Post was about amps ability to kill drivers, if yours hasn't cool, fair play, the ones I was involved with were horrid. Maybe they are not all created equal?

That's why I was asking why would anyone who's heard horror stories about the amp use one. If you only have to clip it once and it kills your drivers then surely something is wrong with the design of the amplifier or maybe it's internal components aren't what anyone would class as reasonable quality I don't know. I've seen my mates use cheaper amplifiers before like W-Audio, Samson etc...which have clipped occasionally and not destroyed drivers. Maybe the only way to really use the Proline 3000 is if you leave AT LEAST 3db headroom AND use a loudspeaker management system at the quality level of say XTA DP426 etc...which has excellent quality RMS and Peak limiters. 

And if they're not all created equal then it's obvious Deton Audio (who makes the Proline 3000 and Thoman rebadge as the Proline 3000) has VERY serious quality control and manufacturing consistency problems.

"And if they're not all created equal then it's obvious Deton Audio (who makes the Proline 3000 and Thoman rebadge as the Proline 3000) has VERY serious quality control and manufacturing consistency problems."

So I say in my opinion try and go with amplifiers from reputable manufacturers like QSC, Crown, Crest, Peavey, EV, Powersoft, FFA etc...even if you take a slight hit on the sheer bass impact because at the end of the day reliability will be better. The Proline 3000 is a brilliant amp for subs but the reliability and it's ability to destroy drivers makes it not worth it. I had two and sold them before it had a chance to take out drivers, now I use QSC RMX4050HD for subs until maybe one day I can afford something even better.

+1

I´d say that it sounds like the Proline 3000 does exactly what it says on the box, but unfortunately that turns into a square wave that the 'optimistically' rated speakers we have these days just can´t handle!

People throw around stupid numbers for speaker powers that are really a nonsense - just like some of the amp power figures we see, especially on some of the low grade powered cabs around.

I know that there are some exceptions, but really most (15"/18") speakers couldn´t actually handle more than 400W-500W of 'real' power. Fortunately, most of the time they don´t actually draw much more than that when in use, so people don´t really notice. And the high-end powered cabs all have complex DSP´s that make sure they don´t!

Regarding amps, etc. - I can´t remember when I last blew a driver. Most of my gigs are powered  by old Crests (ok  - and a 9200 and Chinese CA18 copy - but a really good one ). I´ve stuck with my Crest 8001´s and 7001´s because they have one of the best soft-clip cicuits in the business. Just what the Proline lacks! 

The Proline 3000 could be hooked upto a sub on one side of the amp that could handle 5,000 watts continuous average power and still it'd blow the sub if clipped, I think it's the behavour of the amp when it clips which is so amazingly destructive. I've read Abeltronics reviews of amps they've tested and as far as I can tell not all amps clip the same. I mean somne seem to clip and you can damage drivers if it keeps clipping and some are so dangerous if you clip them once say goodbye to your drivers. That's the kind of amp the Proline 3000 seems to be and if there was a Cloud CX335 used before it and it STILL managed to take out drivers that tells you how dangerous the amp is. 

I've read reviews of the Proline 3000 that back up my theory that even when you get close to clipping  but don't actually clip the amp the sound quality degrades.

For example the QSC RMX4050HD tested here :

https://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=QSC_RMX4050HD" rel="nofollow - https://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=QSC_RMX4050HD

Abeltronics say "Clipping behaviour is excellent with no nasties", and we know that when the Proline 3000 clips there's definately so called 'nasties' because the amp murders your drivers. Earplug, you say the Proline lacks good limiters but also i'd say it doesn't just need quality clip limiters it needs better components too so when you get close to clipping sound quality doesn't degrade.

I´ve never used - or even seen a Proline 3000, so can´t really comment, but if people are relying on the clip light on the amp to tell them what´s going, then they´re crazy. The only way of knowing exactly what the amp is doing is to use an oscilliscope.

I´ve seen many amps start clipping long before any warning light comes on - especially with a low impedence load and a crap PSU. That may be the case with the 3000, in which case the crest factor is obviously dropping to 1 (0dB) and goodbye to your '5000W' speaker!  

Can assure you the Proline  3000 has very well endowed PSU section, with huge Transformer, plenty of smoothing, and approx 25x output devices per channel. This gives them the legendary sound and bass notes. Don't forget they weigh 5.5 stones !!!

The only drawbacks on this amp, are the lack of sensitivity adjustment, and clip circuitry, and moody inrush circuitry components.

In the right hands, e.g. someone using limiter before the amp, and not trying to get 2kwpc @ 4 ohms, they do sound very nice.

Yeah but it's been said that even with a mighty Cloud CX335 limiter before it, it still killed the drivers, maybe that's in part the fault of the CX335 but i've been told about 3db from clipping it starts to lose sound quality, I can't remember myself I only used my pair once and then sold them just in case they blew up one day soon.

So, actually the loss of sound quality is the first warning sign...

Maybe people should operate their soundsystems with ears rather than eyes.

As an operator, I knew when power compression was happening and could tell when an amp-driver combo was at its limits. My old 80's Mr Eddy transistor amps have absolutely no protection.

This is a problem of power in inexperienced hands.

Btw, just because a decent limiter is used doesn't mean it's set up correctly, and even if it is, a saggy mains negates that.

Ok, understood. Like I say, never seen them, but the Thomann stuff is usually quite well made. Obviously there´s been some shortcuts taken with this amp that limit it´s usability.

"Maybe people should operate their soundsystems with ears rather than eyes. "

Yup!  

"Btw, just because a decent limiter is used doesn't mean it's set up correctly, and even if it is, a saggy mains negates that."

Or a 'saggy' PSU. 

Website says 2400W! 

When will the BS stop? 

JBL, of course, have there own way of doing things. A friend just rang me about one of these:

He´s got a load of them under his VRX - and at least one of the cabs has reversed phase! After checking with the local tech service, he was told that it could happen if the speaker was overheated! 

Only solution given was a recone.  I´m waiting for him to drop the thing around here so I can have a look. Amazing. 

Hope he was serious this time.

Read and understand specifications of speakers.

Usually most low-frquency transducers can handle 25% of the nominal power in long term (for minutes)

For example : 1200W AES & 2400W Peak means:

average maximum power of: 300W

However if you reach that 300W average the lifetime likely will drop seriously.

Otherwise the testing methods defined lifetime suggest that need to survive only 8 hours of operation prior lifetime and parameters degrading.

What is the Preal?

As P Re changes and Preal not(exmple 4000s-4500s and 5500s-6000s) than it has to be on different test signals.

Was there some more description to this? What test signals are those?

Isnt 225W of real power still not much for the speaker. At beginning its voice coil got like 220 deg C. For 225W on worst measured scenario temp was ~170 deg C.

Or is 225W B&C recommendation for long lifetime?

And whats the enclosure?

A pretty common sense result considering the thermal mass of each I would think. But interesting none the less. There seems to be a lot of discussion currently about voice coil temeprature sensing etc, I should hurry up and build the prototype I have been thinking of for years.

Who am I kidding, another 5 years minimum.

This post has become refreshing.

Notice some Fane 400w 15's in the for sale section, proper loud and lovely with not much input.

Maybe sensitivity in drivers will make a come back when they run out of bull?

 Quite, I always love the look on peoples faces when I tell them that my mids are only 200w (Studio 12L's), it gets even better when I also tell them that they are set -3db to the rest of the system. 

Yes they are exceedingly nice drivers.

I'm sure seller will accept offers, if cash collection..

Wait, what? He's got a driver that has reversed its *own* phase after being overheated? How could that possibly work?

Yes - and confirmed by the official JBL service center here. I don´t understand it either. It does sound crazy. Hopefully I´ll get the cab into my workshop this week, then I can investigate further.

He noticed some bass-end cancelation at a gig and found the odd cab/driver.

Maybe one of the coils has burned out - or through and causing some sort of short-circuit, who knows. Apparently the guy at the service center has seen this before with these drivers. The blurb for the thing talks about "Dual-Bridged Technology, Class D", so anything is possible!  

1. Input signal Clipping which could have been better but how many of the users are actually clipping.

2. The bass grip and the restoration of kick drum hit is amazing as many has expressed. Probably thats happening because its not really class H its because of Class G kind of operation. 

3. NTC inrush limiting is punny and there are many places the amp is under engineered. Which could have been better if it would have solved the above issues but prices is what everyone seems looking at. How many would come forward if the price is about 2.5x or 3x and yet has drive capability of the proline 3000? As far as I know many who drove Class D amps never said its better than Class AB/H but none of them who i know tried proline 3000. 

Look at the following input clipping system where the input of the amplifier itself is getting limited and giving this soft clip. Can anyone rate it that if thats the clipping behaviour of the amplifier then would that be ok? https://www.dropbox.com/s/n24lwg2926kn2qj/input%20limiter.JPG?dl=0

Yes, some good points. I´ve never used a 3000, but it sounds like it does what it says on the box and a lot of people just don´t understand AES ratings and low crest factor source muzak pushed to the limit, etc.

As regards the clip, it´s impossible to comment without more data, ie what was the input voltage at that point. I´ve just looked at the specs for the amp and see that it´s input sensitivity is 0,77V. That´s actuall quite low for such a big amp. Most will use 1V, or more - in order to avoid 'premature' overdriving and clipping. So that could be an issue with the amp.

I was thinking to send them an email but, considering the fact that someone else build those amps for thomann, i doubt they know this kind of details.

It's been a year since i'm checking their amps on their website but i swear that today is the first time

the "class AB" classification is present. Must have been added recently.

These are new versions of the amps.

The pictures on Thomann website, need updating.

I just checked the original manufacturer's web page.

Really there are new versions of those amps?

Even proline 3000's price has changed: 658 euros before 599 euros now...i'm intrigued

Can someone confirm?

If those amps are in class AB now they should also sound better...would be nice to know much more.

Would love to use a proline 3000 in my home setup

Are these originally manufactured by Deton?

Yes - I think that once you get to rail voltages over +/- 95 or so, you really need to go H or G to avoid excessive  stress on the output devices.

I remember reading an article once about how there can be more stress on the O/P transistors with the volume less than 100% due to the fact that the devices are having to drop a substancial amount of voltage, rather than just working in 'swithching' mode.

And then add in phase shifts, etc:

http://sound.whsites.net/patd.htm" rel="nofollow - http://sound.whsites.net/patd.htm

Find it highly unlikely.

Thomann have had these amps labelled as Class H on their site for at  least 12x years.

They would not change that "Willy Nilly".

I would expect Deton has modified these amps.

Unless Deton standards have fallen, and they are now blatantly lying in their specs, as is the case with other Chinese manufacturers.

Or just tell Thomann you want to buy a load - but need to know what they really are...  

About the "Class-H" :

All Class-H circuitry have rail separation diodes which completely blocking the reverse energy flow.

This circuit works only with pure resistors type load, otherwise -- with reactive load-- the load character is completely undamped between rail steps..

In other words the membranes of speakers are "free floating" due lack of active damping effect.

Maybe somebody like this effect but I would not say it *professional*

You can not stack effectively working (proper phase aligned, SPL & transient response) multiple speaker arrays from random phase radiators neither.

All i can say is that on deton website there are a whole new line of AONE amplifiers.

Before we had Deeton AONE 3600 (marketed ny thomann as the proline 3000 we know) and the AONE 4400 wich, unfortunately, almost none of us has seen in real life. The new AONE series has 3 amps: A_ONE I, A-ONE II and A-ONE III. They are indeed class AB , the faceplate looks almost identical but the speacs and the rear are way different, a total different amplifier. I don't think that thomann could ship an amp so different in place of the old amp without warning the buyer.

Also new Deton amps have poor specs: damping factor and slew rates are very poor. Hope t hey don't go downill like naphon did.

Also, i must point out that thomann never advertised ta 2400 and proline 3000's as class H amplifiers on their websites or manual, no information on the class of these amplifiers has ever been available from thomann and the schematics have never been available. Honestly i can't recall if deton has ever advertised the AONE 3600 as a class H amp or not but, on their website, AONE 3600's specs are still available and there's no mention of the class of that amp.

I do think they are class H at this point but, more than that, i would be interested in knowing how they would perform in a home stereo setup in terms of sound quality

Totally agree.

Please can you comment on the sound quality of the proline 3000?

I would love to use it FULL RANGE for listening / monitoring pourpose.

Right now i'm using a qsc rmx 2450...would the proline 3000 be a step down?

So you think the output transistor alone is not blocking the reverse energy? Think about it.. they do! Only one way current is possible as well as with those diodes. 

Also keep in mind, output stage has complementary bjt pairs. So there is actually no blocking for +/- reverse current as you might think :)

And there is no diodes on high voltage rails.  

Class H/G amp may have big damping factor = amplifier has cone control and thus it is not free floating.. 

I have some QSC mx3000a's, they are class H (or G).  One of the best cone control I have seen!

 

I have a pair of JBL MPX1200s (rebadged Mx3000a), one is in the house, connected to the TV..

Maybe I should stop trying to sell one and keep it.

I also had some Tamp ta1400's for a while, great little amps too as being class H (after I repaired some bad solder joints and one faulty bridge rectifier). No signs of losing cone control. 

I need to get proline 3000 for my test bench, just to find out if there is something wrong at clipping..

Another interesting fact to consider is the difference in slew rate between the proline 3000 and the ta2400:

Proline 3000 45V

TA2400 60V

pretty strange considering how much bigger the proline 3000 is.

Made some research and noticed that a lot of big amps (way bigger than the TA 2400) have slew rates of approximately 45V...so they are supposed to give less bass impact compared to the TA2400?

 Point is that the most part of bigger amps don't seem to have bigger damping factors/slew rates than smallish amps (qsc rmx 5050 has smaller damping factor than the rmx 2450 for example).

Cerwin vega cv 5000ìs damping factor is 300

Even the monster crest ca 10001 has a damping factor of 500...

Crown ma5000vz slew rate is only 30!!!! (Damping factor is outstanding at "greater than 1000")

Tamp TA1400, similar to TA2400, produces indeed tight bass.  I actually liked it pretty much. 

 

There is no point for a bass amp to have such a big slew either. Lets take as example 5 samples(44.1k/1s) voltage swing from maximum voltage to minimum. Thats close to maximum angle at which samples are falling during bass drop. 5/44.1k~113us. Even counting some ridicolous power on the speaker in worst impedance scenario. sqrt(3kw*8ohm)*2sqrt(2)~438V

3.9V/us

I wouldnt want to test it thought.

On a side note I do remember quite a few people in the past saying the Crown MA5002 were dangerous when clipped and at clipping could destroy drivers. By the way regarding the TA2400 i'm sure i've read on this very foreum that they're not good on bass especially when bridged as they can't handle 4 ohm bridged well or at all, can't remember the actual details but i'm sure I read something like that. 

Keep posting then 

Looking at the schematic the clip LED is driven directly off the output with no reference to the supply rails or input signal whatsoever. There is a trim pot but even if calibrated the circuit is not able to account for different speaker  load conditions or supply rail voltage sag, which happens in even the best built amps at full tilt.

Some old QSC amps had a bit different clip indicator circuit but it works too. 

You get what you pay for...

Apart from, when you get even less..

Thats the way it is indeed. 

However, T.Amps has very good price/performance. As well as Some Behringers.

Ok two things, first what the hell made them make the amp like that without properly accurate clip lights? To me that's dumb because surely as the word gets round that the amp kills your drivers when only just clipping whereas most decent amps don't sales will go down. Secondly how do you set full system gain structure if you can't rely on the amp clip lights? I know how to set gain structure with a 400hz sinewave and a piezo all down the line but I always then turn up the amp's attentuators until the amp's clip lights flicker then turn them down a tad just below clipping. Would you use an oscilloscope? I have no idea how to use one.

Exactly, it's not even really a cost issue just bad design.  I guess good design costs money too, but why would a manufacturer care, people still buy them anyway.

It's a shame, because otherwise it looks like a perfectly good amp. There are certainly a lot worse about.

Well ideally you would use a scope to find the clip point, that's how you measure the maximum unclipped output of an amp, it's the point just before the voltage peaks start to square off.

Guess instead you could measure the rail voltage and peak output voltage with a DMM and just keep turning it up until the voltages are the same. But that still needs a dummy load.

Failing that just make sure you don't put more than 770mv into the input, since that's the level for rated output. There are plenty threads explaining how to calculate gain & limiter settings back from there.

 Or using your test tone push a signal until it's hitting your limiter then use a DMM on AC volts RMS to measure the amp input voltage and adjust the gain until it's 770mv, then back it off a bit like you say. That would be running the amp flat out though, so only do it if your speakers can handle it.

Agreed 

But to be fair to the Proline,, despite the obvious shortcomings it's still a lot of amp for the money.

A couple of cheap mods could make it into a perfectly good amp, one that would put many much more expensive to shame. 

I guess in a way it'd not be worth buying a Proline 300 and testing it, for what it's worth it'd be better to stick with what I have. Thanks for your help.

But if you modded it then wouldn't the hassle not be worth it? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a used Crest CA18 or maybe Crown MA5002VZ or maybe even what I have QSC RMX4050HD. I just don't see how a Proline 3000 could make yours subs THAT much better that it'd be worth it. Here's a thought that's maybe or maybe not worth considering, just a random thought out of the blue have any of you very well educated guys ever thought of maybe contacting these cheap Chinese amp companies and asking if you can work with them to provide them with the knowledge of how to make their amps more reliable and witrh quality clip limiters?

I know i've heard how good many Chinese amps are for subs but i've also heard the reason more people don't buy them is reliability. Maybe you guys could get in touch with them and inform them how to make them more reliable and transform the Chinese amp world and make it a definite viable option for UK people.

Fully agree.

My comment was regarding the Thomann TA2400, Ok amp on Mids, but would not use for sub.

The Proline 2700/3000, was a whole lot of amp for the money, back in the day.

Proper transformer, huge amount of output devices per channel, exceptional cooling/air flow strategy.

I mentioned years ago, I ran a 2700 in 4 ohm bridge all night, and when party was done, amp was cool to the touch.

Only problem with these amps, was the clip handling, which is why I always said, these are great bridge monsters, but who wants to walk around with 5.5 stones of amp, per pair of 18s.

Probably, those are all excellent amps, but if buying second hand the Proline would be cheaper. l guess in terms of mods it's fine if you can DIY but certainly not worth paying someone to do it, when you can pick up better amps for perhaps £100-£200 more. But the Proline is still a solid amp for the money.

Fred_dibna wrote:  Here's a thought that's maybe or maybe not worth considering, just a random thought out of the blue have any of you very well educated guys ever thought of maybe contacting these cheap Chinese amp companies and asking if you can work with them to provide them with the knowledge of how to make their amps more reliable and witrh quality clip limiters?

Anyway, its kind of nice that even today, some big iron amps are still manufactured. Mostly chinese things tho.. but as example QSC RMX 4050/5050 are very good.

Crown's last heavy w. amp was XLS 5000? 

Tbh I have never actually seen the inside of a Proline for real 

But from what I have seen/read online the assembly quality is ok/average. The basic drive, output & PSU design is quite similar to some of the classics, the main difference seems to be the components are speced much closer to the wind, whereas the old school heavies were usually massively overbuilt,120v caps for 80v etc. which is why they go on forever. Crest used to do a 24hr, 100% output burn in test, for every new amp built!

The Proline should  do the business, but not so sure how long it will last! 

Tonskulus wrote: Anyway, its kind of nice that even today, some big iron amps are still manufactured. Mostly chinese things tho.. but as example QSC RMX 4050/5050 are very good. Crown's last heavy w. amp was XLS 5000?