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4x v1000 and proline 3000

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=102989
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Topic: 4x v1000 and proline 3000
Posted By: NOISEYNEIGHBOURS
Subject: 4x v1000 and proline 3000
Date Posted: 12 December 2018 at 9:57pm
Want to double check...4 v1000 8 ohm with one proline 3000 or is it worth buying another proline?

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"nice headphones, are they beats?"



Replies:
Posted By: NOISEYNEIGHBOURS
Date Posted: 12 December 2018 at 9:59pm
also I will have 8 v1000 (1850) soon so will need to look into buying a lighter amp, any recommendations would be appreciated! :) 

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"nice headphones, are they beats?"


Posted By: junoprobelaunch
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 12:26am
Absolutely a no go on running 4 V18s from a Proline. Any thread on here where the proline is mentioned will make that abundantly clear. Not necessarily entirely a power thing but more to do with the lack of clip limiters. Definitely worth either buying two or just grabbing a more powerful amp. I would probably go for the latter to be honest, plenty of good choices about for the price of two prolines although unless you're willing to pay substantially more, you'll still probably only be able to comfortably and safely power 4 V18s.


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 5:21am
i dont get it. ten thousands of people running proline on 4 or even 2 ohms over years without any problem and there is more continuous power available than any SMPS amp even double its price point. But in this forum, people seem to hate it. maybe they set their limiters wrong?


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 5:31am
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

i dont get it. ten thousands of people running proline on 4 or even 2 ohms over years without any problem and there is more continuous power available than any SMPS amp even double its price point. But in this forum, people seem to hate it. maybe they set their limiters wrong?


Yes, they probably did. Because most people seem to think a cheap DSP with only a peak limiter ser from a spreadsheet formula derived from the AES rating of the driver in free air and no enclosure rather than actually assessing how the driver behaves in the box and thermal capacity, airflow, real power, etc


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 7:59am
don't do it , 1000s of threads on here about it Confused

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: Jack_The_Ripper
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 3:16pm
I think the general idea about the Proline 3000 amps is that if Deton the original manufacturer got off their backsides and re-designed the amp so it has better clipping behavour and clip limiters as good as found on say for example QSC RMX and PLX amplifiers then the Proline 3000 might be the best cheap budget amp for subs.

But the amp has been out years and years and Deton seem as though they can't be bothered. I had two myself but sold them before they managed to someday accidentally shaft my drivers.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 4:11pm
But the point that’s being made is they won’t shaft your drivers unless you let them


Posted By: Jack_The_Ripper
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

But the point that’s being made is they won’t shaft your drivers unless you let them

Yes but also customers have reported that sound quality degrades before clipping occures on the Prolien 3000 meaning the amp probably has no headroom like quality amplifiers do. Plus the Proline 3000 takes out drivers with even the slightest bit of clipping which is easy to happen. 


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 6:08pm
The latter one is because it has 2000W (@ 4 Ohm) sine wave output power before clipping which is just to much for most of the drivers and something not usually available in amps of this price range. It is not the compressed waveform cause by clipping which damages drivers.
Other amps, especially budget SMPS amps, when driven near its limit /clip will be heavily restricted by the long term capabilities of the power supply. It is not uncommon to have a 500W SMPS in a 2 x 1500W amp.
So when you hit clip lights, you are looking at 1500W peaks with <250W RMS. Easy for a common 4" VC chassis.
With the proline however, 1500W peak could be much, much more RMS level. There is no "crest factor" built in the amplifier itself so if you play the "right" (or lets say "wrong" for this instance") music material, drivers will burn.

Deton does not bother because the proline sells amazing in germany at least.
With the number of prolines sold, it is easy to get the impression that it fails often because of personal reviews, while in reality, its failure rate might be no more than any other amp.


Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 6:52pm
Clap


Posted By: Jack_The_Ripper
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 7:32pm
But some people who've used the amp say once it clips it behaves strangely, ArthurG said " http://i.viglink.com/?key=5c09f99ded5d8bdd5dfa393cd8dfdb9c&insertId=dc5da36bbfa897a7&type=S&exp=60%3ACI1C55A%3A3&libId=jpmzy0u801002gs4000DL1z3hv96w&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.speakerplans.com%2Fproline-3000-people-blowing-drivers-or-amp_topic102780.html&v=1&iid=dc5da36bbfa897a7&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2FConsumer-Electronics-%2F293%2Fi.html%3F_nkw%3Dproline&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.speakerplans.com%2Famp-forum_forum24_page2.html&title=Proline%203000%20-%20People%20blowing%20drivers%20or%20Amp%20-%20Speakerplans.com%20Forums%20-%20Page%201&text=%3Cspan%3EProline%3C%2Fspan%3E" rel="nofollow - Proline , as well as all Thomann amps, has only a simple & cheap peak stop limiter that is rubbish. Lot of DC and square wave coming out when it clips. It put stress on the amp (the bipolar  http://i.viglink.com/?key=5c09f99ded5d8bdd5dfa393cd8dfdb9c&insertId=8e3c9c93c03e705a&type=H&exp=60%3ACI1C55A%3A3&libId=jpmzy0u801002gs4000DL1z3hv96w&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.speakerplans.com%2Fproline-3000-people-blowing-drivers-or-amp_topic102780.html&v=1&iid=8e3c9c93c03e705a&out=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-53200-19255-0%2F1%3Ftoolid%3D10029%26campid%3DCAMPAIGNID%26customid%3DCUSTOMID%26catId%3D293%26type%3D2%26ext%3D254002945104%26item%3D254002945104&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.speakerplans.com%2Famp-forum_forum24_page2.html&title=Proline%203000%20-%20People%20blowing%20drivers%20or%20Amp%20-%20Speakerplans.com%20Forums%20-%20Page%201&text=%3Cspan%3Etransistors%3C%2Fspan%3E" rel="nofollow - transistors  dont like it) and on speakers. You get what you pay for...".

NickyBurnell said "Because when they clip, just once, they cause a lot more damage than other amps in the same scenario. This is not hearsay or demonetization. I've owned one and the way it went from OK to nasty noise is not right. BPSound had one in install and it killed a load of Wembley B Lines and it was behind a Cloud Limiter.  The ones I was involved with were horrid. Maybe they are not all created equal?"

So maybe he's right, maybe Deton's consistency is appalling some are ok, some are bad.


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 8:53pm

I've seen them destroy entire sections of sound systems a few times, and while most of those times they were run well into clipping, I've seen them killing drivers without actually being driven to clip, but with good limiting with a nice DSP. It may have been that the drivers were quite old, but still, they're widely used in the amateur scene and I can't say many good things about them.
I tested them vs my Crests and then the FFAs, the latter cost much more but old used Crests aren't more expensive than a Proline. If you don't want to risk catastrophic consequences you better stay well out of clip (I think the actual clipping starts a little before the red lights go on, definitely Crest limiting is so much better). Most important, they don't sound that good, neither are so powerful, it was like night and day vs Crests and FFAs.


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http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: just passing thru
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 8:55pm
sorry to interfere with your conversation. but need to know your thoughts. i got 2 crown 5002 amps and 4 void 18-1000 loaded in scoops and thinking to run 2 v18-1000 on each amp bridge mode. one amp is to weak to run all 4  


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 13 December 2018 at 9:16pm
do it, but don't get carried away too much when you play your scoops! You'll probably hear when you get close to the limit. Still, I remember 8 scoops driven by two crown 5000vz as very heavy sounding, drivers couldn't take much more

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http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 1:55am
Define ‘good limiting’ for me?

Did the user actually measure the RMS voltage or current required to cause heat buildup in the magnet or coil of the driver once in the box and set the limiter to that value? Or did they just take the AES rating and stick it in a calculator?


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 7:38am
If clip is a problem you can try to find its bigger brother A-One 4400.

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I appreciate every like :)) https//www.facebook.com/genomesoundsystems
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Posted By: Jack_The_Ripper
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 8:31am
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:


I've seen them killing drivers without actually being driven to clip... If you don't want to risk catastrophic consequences you better stay well out of clip (I think the actual clipping starts a little before the red lights go on, definitely Crest limiting is so much better). Most important, they don't sound that good, neither are so powerful, it was like night and day vs Crests and FFAs.

This kind of backs up my theory because I thought they did clip before they actually clip, I mean the sound quality degradation about 3db before clipping I heard backs this up. I never clipped the two I had but the sound quality loss about 3db from clipping and the horror stories I read a lot of places of people destroying drivers made me sell mine. I too do believe the clip lights are inaccurate and do think clipping occurs before the clip lights come on so this would lead owners to believe they're only just clipping the amp when in fact clipping occured a while ago at lower level and now they're BADLY clipping the amp regardless of the clip lights only just being tickled. 


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 9:11am
Three CA copies (OHM badged) on rig resale at the moment, all ment to be immaculate, £400 each is a good price.


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 9:33am
Could well be the front panel clip indicators on these amps are not always calibrated correctly, ive seen it on several other amps, and not just Chinease amps...  

I think the fact that they have huge supply capable of delivering very high currents will have something to do with it, as has been said many other amps will limit current if you push them to the edge with lot crest factor / clipped signal, the inf8 V2 had a bit of a rep for blowing drivers and i put that down to the very high current delivery , and the confusing limiter... 


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Could well be the front panel clip indicators on these amps are not always calibrated correctly, ive seen it on several other amps, and not just Chinease amps...  

I think the fact that they have huge supply capable of delivering very high currents will have something to do with it, as has been said many other amps will limit current if you push them to the edge with lot crest factor / clipped signal, the inf8 V2 had a bit of a rep for blowing drivers and i put that down to the very high current delivery , and the confusing limiter... 


+100

You really have to check exactly where these amps start to distort with a proper meter - or scope - not rely on the clip LEDs!

And a lot of people/amps will get away with it because of a weak PSU. It sounds like the 3000 does what it says, so will blow drivers unless properly limited. And you have to understand exactly what the AES specs mean, as well as compensating for the type of muzak and dynamics (crest factor).

I can still remember the first acid house dj thing I did - after a 'normal´gig. The highly compressed signal - and continuous redlining by the dj´s cost me 2 x Gauss 4583´s. An expensive lesson.   Cry





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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Jack_The_Ripper Jack_The_Ripper wrote:

Originally posted by king david king david wrote:


I've seen them killing drivers without actually being driven to clip... If you don't want to risk catastrophic consequences you better stay well out of clip (I think the actual clipping starts a little before the red lights go on, definitely Crest limiting is so much better). Most important, they don't sound that good, neither are so powerful, it was like night and day vs Crests and FFAs.




This kind of backs up my theory because I thought they did clip before they actually clip, I mean the sound quality degradation about 3db before clipping I heard backs this up. I never clipped the two I had but the sound quality loss about 3db from clipping and the horror stories I read a lot of places of people destroying drivers made me sell mine. I too do believe the clip lights are inaccurate and do think clipping occurs before the clip lights come on so this would lead owners to believe they're only just clipping the amp when in fact clipping occured a while ago at lower level and now they're BADLY clipping the amp regardless of the clip lights only just being tickled. 



Clipping is a symptom however. The CAUSE of the failure is still too much long term average current.


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 11:18am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Define ‘good limiting’ for me?

Did the user actually measure the RMS voltage or current required to cause heat buildup in the magnet or coil of the driver once in the box and set the limiter to that value? Or did they just take the AES rating and stick it in a calculator?


Cant remember how the limiter was set, but the amp was kept below clip.

The people who do like you suggest most probably use other amps. Cant see proline amps in professional rigs


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http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 1:36pm
Pretty sure them ohm amps are Chinese too arnt tha?

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Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 2:29pm
[QUOTE=Dub Specialist Sound]Pretty sure them ohm amps are Chinese too arnt tha? [/QUOTE
Yes bud but made for OHM who have reputation to consider so should be good amps.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

Pretty sure them ohm amps are Chinese too arnt tha?
Yes bud but made for OHM who have reputation to consider so should be good amps.


Think you'll find they were not made for Ohm, but just rebranded Soundstandard amps, just like the Darq series.

UK has a long history of importing cheap chinese gear, rebranding it, and selling it for 4x times original price.

While others here cry foul of Chinese products..




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Define ‘good limiting’ for me?

Did the user actually measure the RMS voltage or current required to cause heat buildup in the magnet or coil of the driver once in the box and set the limiter to that value? Or did they just take the AES rating and stick it in a calculator?



Cant remember how the limiter was set, but the amp was kept below clip.

The people who do like you suggest most probably use other amps. Cant see proline amps in professional rigs


Below clip is still capable of being way too much RMS power for even the beefiest 21” coil when the power supply can deliver the current continuously.

Coil heating can occur at approx 400W long term power for day a B&C 18SW115 in a tapped horn where forced air cooling is BETTER than a folded horn or scoop, let alone a box with lower airflow. Part of this is proper filter design as well, so is ensuring cone movement and impedance is balanced between sound quality and efficiency (low excursion) and cooling (high excursion) especially based on the intended source material and crest factor of the music.

RMS limit for many dual 18” folded horns where the driver magnet sits in the horn path can be as low as 50v.

This is not a myth and is well documented by the driver manufacturers own Klippel data.


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 December 2018 at 4:23pm
I fully appreciate that lev, my point was OHM don't tend to put their name on shite so they could be good, no Chinese hating here, life would be shockingly expensive without them Smile



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