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Powersoft X4 - Used asking prices

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Topic: Powersoft X4 - Used asking prices
Posted By: levyte357-
Subject: Powersoft X4 - Used asking prices
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 11:15am
Been quoted £3.5K for one of these . 

Reasonable, overpriced?


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".



Replies:
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 11:21am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Been quoted £3.5K for one of these . 

Reasonable, overpriced?
Not over priced bro , I was quoted more or less the same range 3.3k is not far from that . Maybe in a year or two they’ll come abit down when Powersoft come with their new release. 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 12:32pm
Cheers.

Have heard them, & they sound nice playing real sub.

Sceptical about them playing 12x subs, but will definitely play 8x, better than K20.


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 12:38pm
We have K20,we have run 8*2151. Of it with no sweat but as you say I sleep better when we run them of the X4 , even though the K20 was only pulling 18a out of the 32a it was hooked on . 

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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Been quoted £3.5K for one of these . 

Reasonable, overpriced?

Not over priced bro , I was quoted more or less the same range 3.3k is not far from that . Maybe in a year or two they’ll come abit down when Powersoft come with their new release. 


Very reasonable.

The platform is only a few years old. The K series was released over ten years before the X series. I wouldn’t hold your breath for a big boy replacement just yet.

There are some new small four channel on the horizon though.

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Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 1:32pm

Not over priced bro , I was quoted more or less the same range 3.3k is not far from that . Maybe in a year or two they’ll come abit down when Powersoft come with their new release. 
[/QUOTE]

Very reasonable.

The platform is only a few years old. The K series was released over ten years before the X series. I wouldn’t hold your breath for a big boy replacement just yet.

There are some new small four channel on the horizon though.[/QUOTE]
Am kind of waiting for something four ch or 8ch abit smaller than the X4 for the mid-tops dry/hire not all engineers love my idea of running x4 on mid/tops , they say Kyle and Francis are sick , but I love to know I can do almost anything during the setups.


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: Aman Gebru
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Sceptical about them playing 12x subs, but will definitely play 8x, better than K20.


Wrong amp if you want to drive 12x or 8x subs.

1 channel of sub, 1 channel of upper bass, and a mid channel and HF channel is what will get the best out of the X4


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Sceptical about them playing 12x subs, but will definitely play 8x, better than K20.


Wrong amp if you want to drive 12x or 8x subs.

1 channel of sub, 1 channel of upper bass, and a mid channel and HF channel is what will get the best out of the X4


X8 fares better because of the improved cooling the larger case offers but yeah, they’re designed to be used in a touring standard of spreading the workload across amplifiers. Not only is this easier on the power supply and components, but this way if an amp goes down for any reason you don’t lose all of your subs, or all of your mids, etc. Plus it means you only have to carry one type of spare and any amp can do any job.

We’ve standardised on racks of 2x X4 and 2x K20 for the time being but with proper planning of where things end up connecting then 3x X4 is the ideal. 12ch touring racks are the norm across the industry now for a reason, see the LA-RAK II, d&b D80 racks, Adamson PLM racks, TW Audio X4 racks, etc.

That said, even running all four channels on sub there’s technically still enough power in an X4 to cook almost any driver if you run it too hard. The power supply not being able to sustain the full output long term can also help prevent coil burning because the duty cycle doesn’t hold long enough to fully heat up the coil - approximately 30 seconds of a few hundred watts for many 18”.

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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 2:04pm
Wont do subs better then K20.

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Wont do subs better then K20.
I can never overstand this with it can’t do subs like K20 , I get 27hz from both amps if I want them louder I just get more amps , I h
Know ones in a while we put 8 subs on the k20, I feel 6x21” on the k20 is nuff for me . 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: Sinai Sound
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 8:33pm
Used an X4 driving 2 x subs (1000w PD1852) per channel fairly recently, powered from a dedicated 32a 3ph supply and sounded quite decent doing so. Still think the K20 has a bit more oomphh mind

It got very noisy ! But it only has a small fan....... and a totally different style of fan compared to the K series

I'm fairly convinced that the X series has a nicer tone than the K series on sub, though I could be imagining things




Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 8:48pm
£3500 for a used amplifier sounds like a fortune to me, then i checked the new price....are they serious? Found one at £6500,another at £5600,then £4995. A lot of variations on price. Ermm


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

£3500 for a used amplifier sounds like a fortune to me, then i checked the new price....are they serious? Found one at £6500,another at £5600,then £4995. A lot of variations on price. Ermm

True.. however one has to keep in mind that boutique-size dealers usually have higher prices than their large, multinational counterparts due to sales figures, warehouses, SKUs, number of employees etc.


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 24 December 2018 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

£3500 for a used amplifier sounds like a fortune to me, then i checked the new price....are they serious? Found one at £6500,another at £5600,then £4995. A lot of variations on price. Ermm


It has a three phase, bi phase and single phase autoranging mains distribution unit inside each of them plus Dante and world class DSP and networking, not to mention four channels of 170v peak output. It’s also modular and magnetically held internally and the main parts can be hotswapped in a few minutes with only a few bolts to undo.

So yes the list price of £6500 is appropriate. The XTA APA is two grand more. This is touring pro kit and adjusted for inflation etc it’s not dissimilar to the list prices for the flagship amps of their time.

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 8:36am
multi phase operation is very flexible and useful idea!
good DSP could be also handy.

However the most important "the amplifier part" is not so good.. Limited only not so heavy applications, the power supply on strong 3X 400V operated is very weak capacity even for a half of size amp(!)
Unfortunately the X4 can not deliver even the fraction of continuous power of the K series.

Despite the hype, based on our testing I do not think that the X4 would be a good amp.
It is way  overpriced too if you see its real capabilities.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 8:57am
I was waiting for this reply LOL


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:05am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I was waiting for this reply LOL


Powersoft says X4 is a 20.000Watts amp
-- with a 2000Watts power supply :-D

( We have measured less than 500W per channel in long term.. )


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:38am
But once again what I read from many user experiences is that it delivers in the field, and as far as I know it's designed for that. 


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:42am
I will not comment on that right now til we’ve done our own tests , lots on test here from the early 2000’s have been one sided, coming from you Victor, you’ve talked about Pn’ amps that we still haven’t seen up til today , so banging others products down , makes me wonder your stand on this . Almost 20years ago when I first laid my hands on the first Powersoft we had , everyone was like buy amps from Uk now about 50% of Sp have Powersoft. Lab couldn’t do bass yet over half the pro companies use them , DIY dis’ them , funny No ?

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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: King Simeon
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:52am
Real data may not be disputed, but it does live up to it's promotional tag line: 

THE AMPLIFIER PLATFORM THAT REDEFINES POWER AMPLIFICATION


I said it before, it does do an impressive job, despite the actual power ratings, and if it's reliable and hard working on the road... good business. 

However for me the worst factor is that it's mono syllabic when it comes to musicality/dynamic. 

If the music getting made is lower and lower in quality/production, then amplifiers appear to be tailoring to it, why make the effort..? 

Modern times are about presenting content... the actual content doesn't have to be questioned as long as it convinces.. it an amp of our times..! 


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https://www.facebook.com/KingSimeonSound?ref=stream     
https://soundcloud.com/king-simeon


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Sinai Sound Sinai Sound wrote:


I'm fairly convinced that the X series has a nicer tone than the K series on sub, though I could be imagining things

Have to agree, X4/X8 sound as good on sub, as best transformer amps I've heard.

K20 sub tone changes,  with 6x+ cabs, and sub heavy material.
Still very loud, but not warmth of X series. However still suitable for 90% of smaller outfits, I would say.

So X series improved power supply, is proven.


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: spongebob
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 10:56am
You could have an X8 Dante for £5000 if you wanted...


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I was waiting for this reply LOL


Powersoft says X4 is a 20.000Watts amp
-- with a 2000Watts power supply :-D

( We have measured less than 500W per channel in long term.. )


I’ll take 500w real world watts that I can buy over a million mythical Hungarian ones

Anyway, 500w long term is enough to burn any speaker so?

How about we look at the voltage swing and the fact it recharges stupidly fast? So in reality, it’s perfectly fine for the vast majority of shows as proven by the fact it’s out there, doing said shows. Even reggae and dub, where big Soundsystems who demand serious performance are smashing venues with them? Or are you saying Mungo’s, Iration etc don’t know what bass is and you do?

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Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 6:08pm
I did not say that Powersoft X4 would be useless. There are many type of works where it could perform well, low duty cycle jobs with carefully aligned (split in freq. range) across channels.

However when we have tested in live environment such as driving each channel on 4 or 2.6R loads, in full range or lows with dense music it just simply deliver -3.. -5dB less than two of 'dedicated' 10K amp, either from Powersoft or others.
There was a clear indication of collapsing rails caused loss of headroom and some compression.
It would not be a problem UNTIL you do not reach the continuous power envelope, but the X4 has stellar difference between peak vs. continuous therefore it is not very difficult to reach that situation when the output quality, headroom will suffer. Of course there are various type of speakers with very different amping requirements, I am sure that there are many who happy with X4 while for others it is simply too small.
I am a bit just dissapointed because the true three phase 400V operation could have a huge potential to make a very good performing amp, but apparently the X series has not reached this goal.



Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:20pm
Yet here we are, doing high duty cycle shows with incredible feedback from punters, artists and promoters alike. So much so that many artists who own their own rigs have bought said amp.

Maybe speakers don’t behave like a dummy load?

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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 9:55pm
To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?


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Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 25 December 2018 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

[

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

actually multi channel (labgruppen, d&b, Powersoft, Linea....) amps are the standard on serious touring rigs.





Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 8:45am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:



Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?

Yes - i have one - don't build it.


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fsl.online


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 9:26am
LOL

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Be seeing you.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 11:05am
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?

Most people? Substantiate this.

Its nonsense and needs calling out. Presenting an opinion is fine but trying to add weight to it in such a fashion is unnecessary and wrong. 


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 
Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: dylan-penguinmedia
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?

You do talk some shit...


Posted By: wires
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by dylan-penguinmedia dylan-penguinmedia wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?

You do talk some shit...

Definitely needs to hold back on giving advice.
Going to be a nightmare for new people in the future, searching the forum and ending up listening to drivel without the context of other posts lol


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by dylan-penguinmedia dylan-penguinmedia wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

I think multichannel amps are best left for home theaters.. I've never owned or used one in PA but most people seem to agree that it's best to use separate amps.. in case one goes down the others will still run unless you trip a breaker or somehow manage to fry the whole rack.

Which brings into mind.. I'm building a crossover which could well cause damage to amplifiers. Is there any reasonable safety measure to prevent this?

You do talk some shit...


LOL LOL LOL


Yes, multichannel amps are everywhere in PA work. Especially for things like bi-amping stage monitors. Saves a lot of rack space. Even the cheaper units, like the iNukes are fine for this.






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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 12:51pm
Yup.

Mr Efinque, im sure you mean well, but posting random nonsense about building amp-destroying-crossovers in someone else's thread, that has no relevance at all to the topic is annoying.

Maybe best to confine your "projects" to your own Dance stack thread, that way we can have all the sillyness in one place. Thumbs Up


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Be seeing you.


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 1:20pm
Agreed, hate to see a newbie take some of this advice.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 
Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 

Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 4:19pm

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

 

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

 

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

 

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

 

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

 

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

 

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

 

Best Regards,  



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

Yup.

Mr Efinque, im sure you mean well, but posting random nonsense about building amp-destroying-crossovers in someone else's thread, that has no relevance at all to the topic is annoying.

Maybe best to confine your "projects" to your own Dance stack thread, that way we can have all the sillyness in one place. Thumbs Up

Well said Ian---Not been on here very long and within a short space of time has gone from a newbie with very little knowledge to an "expert" on almost every section of the forum!!!!!!


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 26 December 2018 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 
Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 

Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.
That’s what I said I’ve only run 8x21” on it that’s two per ch , I try to learn from the elderly Pro’s many years back Tony (ASS) said run run your bass in 4&8 ohm to get the best out of them , so I try to keep it there whenever I can. Worst case 2.6 so even thu I know I can run 8 pd2151 off the K20 I prefer 6 bins max . That way longer life for everything. 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:




<p ="Msonormal">Possibly, I am overlooking something here.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">The Powersoft X4 specification states;



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">“Current Draw



<p ="Msonormal">1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts
total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4
ohms.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically
all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Just what is written above (which appears to be a
disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all
four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically
speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not
meet up to the advertised specs.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Best Regards, <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>




Modern amps do not pull all of their power directly from the wall as it is demanded by the drivers, and have not for a long time.

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 


Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.


Thermal shutdown yeah? That’s why I suggest X8 for sub, the thermal capability is way higher even just from physical space inside. But even then, putting your rack together in a way that you can run your subs from one or two channels of each amp and the mods and highs on the others is not just making better use of the amp and power supply but also better redundancy in the event of failure.

Out of curiosity what voltage and current was each channel pushing? And how much louder does the box really go above that level?

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 11:12am
Thermal shutdown yeah? That’s why I suggest X8 for sub, the thermal capability is way higher even just from physical space inside. But even then, putting your rack together in a way that you can run your subs from one or two channels of each amp and the mods and highs on the others is not just making better use of the amp and power supply but also better redundancy in the event of failure.
Out of curiosity what voltage and current was each channel pushing? And how much louder does the box really go above that level?
Yo Toastyghost, the setup that I like most out of what i’ve Got now is using K6 on sub that’s 4*k6 to our8* 21” ,K20 on the on the 8*118i call lowerkicks cos me like them running from 60-110, x4 runs two Chs 4*215 or6*115 and the 10”s in the Res3sh,then we have the M50Q to run hi’s , sounds f””king good , like you said earlier in some post ,I or let’s say we are getting upgrade on all K6’s to K10 with dsp am yet to hear from Powersoft, if the boards are too old for dsp they said some are got had to send production dates and numbers, then I think it’l be Nice with 4*2151pd’s on each k10. Two x4’s running the rest of the sound , maybe get the X8 and X4 for lightweight jobs since we’l be Running 6way system, since 2007 we only lost two drivers to dry hire , which is still to high in my books , 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 11:21am
Kyle, it wasnt a very scientific test because it was freezing outside. Now you get the idea how hard i pushed it when i managed to thermal it at arround zero celsius outside.
No limiters applied.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

Best Regards,  



Based on the specifications of the speakers (AES) the amplifier must be able to deliver _at least_ 1/4 sustained power of the nominal value, so a "20KW class amp"  need to be able to provide at least 5KW long-term average on the output. If you have let us say 90% power conversion efficiency (keep in mind 90% is VERY HIGH, power supply + amplifier parts added in chain!) I consider that the amp has *enough* , properly sized energy storage inside to smoothen ripples caused by crest factor of the signal.
So in this case the amp must be able to pull out 5500W from the mains, just to be able to fit the very basic power requirements of the speakers.
From our measurements & experience I would say that at least 50% average capability vs. nominal power for minimumt ~10s is required to properly drive power hungry type of speakers!
Here you see that Powersoft X4 is seriously undersized for demanding type of applications.

I would think that the extra "softness and warmth" coming form your subs on the X4 it is because the rails already started to collapsing, the amp loosing control of the voice coils, free-floating membranes have some kind of similar effect.
However an amp with loosing damping means random phase operating radiators which is the last thing I want to see/hear in the system! Keep in mind that with random phase radiators you loosing coherency of your speakers, effectively damning overall sound quality and SPL.

We have not touched the X8 for testing but what I have been informed it is two X!4 in the same 2RU.
Maybe bigger fans and different case arrangement  have better cooling but same PSU and Amp modules used, particuliary the amp has very undersized fuses, and lack of proper heatsink due there is NO serious power in the system ;-) that is it.

You might be fooled when testing 1-2 channels with low duty cycle materials it could work well but once want to get some serious power (do not forget it is called, priced as a "20KW amp" !)  it will collapsing pretty quickly, and can not deliver the required SPL and headroom.


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

Best Regards,  



Based on the specifications of the speakers (AES) the amplifier must be able to deliver _at least_ 1/4 sustained power of the nominal value, so a "20KW class amp"  need to be able to provide at least 5KW long-term average on the output.


I do not know any major amplifier manufacture that uses sustained power of 1/3rd duty cycle anymore. Many American amplifier manufactures began abandoning the idea by the 1990's. Having 1/8th duty cycle long term seems synonymous globally today.

Best Regards, 


-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 5:56pm
all of this is academic - they work, and they work fantastically well providing that you share your channels across frequency bands as has been written. That said, i did use 2 off X8's to drive 8 off 218 subs ( so one 18" driver per channel) for a job a couple of days before Christmas and it sounded breathtaking! But, at 8Ω a channel its an easy task for a unit like this.

There are plenty of other options for those who prefer a different path, no skin of my nose.

I too have found the thermal capacity of the X8 superior and have started standardising onto it as a result. 24ch touring racks with a 32A 3ø inlet, XLR/ Veam in's, Speakon and Soca outs all in a 10RU rack make a lot of sense to me!

Look at the cost of the X8 as a complete management / processing / signal distro / amplifier unit split into 8 channels - its a complete bargain as far as i am concerned.


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fsl.online


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

 I try to learn from the elderly Pro’s many years back Tony (ASS) said run run your bass in 4&8 ohm to get the best out of them,


Except any "pro" worth his salt, will know a cab loaded with 8 ohm driver, could be between 10-12 ohms, not including resistance of the speaker cable between it and the amp.

So, 4x of those cabs on one channel of an amp is not 2ohms is it!?

So much for the advice of old pro's.


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

 I try to learn from the elderly Pro’s many years back Tony (ASS) said run run your bass in 4&8 ohm to get the best out of them,


Except any "pro" worth his salt, will know a cab loaded with 8 ohm driver, could be between 10-12 ohms, not including resistance of the speaker cable between it and the amp.

So, 4x of those cabs on one channel of an amp is not 2ohms is it!?

So much for the advice of old pro's.

Give it some beans and get that voice coil warmed up and your looking at more like 20-30 ohms


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 6:16pm
..you'd need to do an impedance sweep to make sure. 
To be worth your salt you wouldn't guess or assume.
BUT to give advice on using basic maths and to play on the safe side of things telling people 4/8ohm on an amp channel is fairly SAFE advice and gives the novice the chance to explore, down the road, better ways of using their boxes and how to balance channel loads as to not push them to hard as to keep killing them.


#justsaying




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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 December 2018 at 6:46pm
That 10-12ohm might be the case, so 4 drivers might result in a 3ohm or whatever load.
But the damping factor will suffer regardless, compared to 2-3 8 ohm drivers in parallel.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 29 December 2018 at 8:54am
Lol , so yesterday we did setups for today first setup is 
8*res3sh ,4*215mk2 F1, and 8*121 br’s pd2151 loaded , amps for this setup since it’s a four cornered game, is 2*m50q, 4*k6, and k20 . 
Setup 2 , all running from an X4 2*101 F1’s and 4*118 , 
First setup is using 32a, the second is fine on 16a both sounded fantastic, will put pics up on another topic, 
Lev just asking how many drivers have you blown in the last ten years ?


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 December 2018 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Lev just asking how many drivers have you blown in the last ten years ?

In last 10x years, blown 4x drivers.

2" Jbl comp, 1x PD1850, 2x Void V18-1000..

Pd1850 blown by 4050HD clipping.
2x Voids killed by Inf8mk2 on its way out on 1x Channel.

Funnily enough, when I drew 34A powering 4x of my Scoops, with 2x bridged amps, only people's minds were blown, by so much spl!!

LOL


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 December 2018 at 12:18pm

Bridged QSCs and K20 compared on sub.

Video by Ermita.

No sub drivers blown..

But on the night, dude did blow 3x 18" drivers, in his tapped horns, trying to keep up with my Scoops.

LOL


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 29 December 2018 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Lev just asking how many drivers have you blown in the last ten years ?

In last 10x years, blown 4x drivers.

2" Jbl comp, 1x PD1850, 2x Void V18-1000..

Pd1850 blown by 4050HD clipping.
2x Voids killed by Inf8mk2 on its way out on 1x Channel.

Funnily enough, when I drew 34A powering 4x of my Scoops, with 2x bridged amps, only people's minds were blown, by so much spl!!

LOL
That’s not bad cause ten years ago we talked about Soundboy blowing a bin or two every time sound systems were out 🤓, and about keeping up with the next soundbouy, I stopped , that we try to just just the best and most clear,clean sound, we can get every time we are out on a job , when people leave for home in the morning they come and say I didn’t need my earplugs, cause it sounded so f🤬cking good , am glad.


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: Shelfstacker
Date Posted: 15 January 2019 at 10:03pm
Oh christ, not this again. Sorry I'm late to the party, but I thought I'd try and redress the balance.

Yes, we now own 6 of the X8 Dante, and they perform flawlessly whatever we ask of them.  I shy away from gigs obsessed by bass bass bass these days, although when we have needed it these X8's do deliver, seemingly as much as you want.

What they were excellent at driving recently was a large distributed outdoor sound system in Nottingham, where we had to cover 10k people in the round.  On a 2 day install for a 45 minute show, we put in 600 metres of Cat 5 cable, with Cisco switches and access points, all run from a QL1 on Dante.  With a man with an Ipad at each hang or stack controlling levels.  Headroom for days and no issues.

I'm not sure how else I would have wanted to rig and control that lot without native Dante?  As a package, Powersoft seem to have smashed it out of the park in terms of all round capability vs value for money.

We have also just started swapping our smaller systems and monitor rigs over to Powersoft T604 amps, which offer half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply, but for much less money.  I'll let you know how we get on with these, but the first few gigs have gone very well with the one we are trying out.

I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I do have real world experience of this kit.


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If you are at the circus and being attacked by clowns - go for the juggler


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 January 2019 at 10:46pm
Shhhh they’re not bloody announced yet

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http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 16 January 2019 at 1:59am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Shhhh they’re not bloody announced yet

Never say I didn't warn you Lol , they can't keep it down LOLLOLLOL


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 16 January 2019 at 2:04am
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Shhhh they’re not bloody announced yet


Never say I didn't warn you Lol , they can't keep it down LOLLOLLOL


Worst kept secret

n

-------------
http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 16 January 2019 at 8:07am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Shhhh they’re not bloody announced yet


Never say I didn't warn you Lol , they can't keep it down LOLLOLLOL


Worst kept secret

n
i started getting inside info should get two-three home for testing Aka Keeps TongueTongueLOL 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 17 January 2019 at 8:31am
Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:

Oh christ, not this again. Sorry I'm late to the party, but I thought I'd try and redress the balance.

Yes, we now own 6 of the X8 Dante, and they perform flawlessly whatever we ask of them.  I shy away from gigs obsessed by bass bass bass these days, although when we have needed it these X8's do deliver, seemingly as much as you want.

What they were excellent at driving recently was a large distributed outdoor sound system in Nottingham, where we had to cover 10k people in the round.  On a 2 day install for a 45 minute show, we put in 600 metres of Cat 5 cable, with Cisco switches and access points, all run from a QL1 on Dante.  With a man with an Ipad at each hang or stack controlling levels.  Headroom for days and no issues.

I'm not sure how else I would have wanted to rig and control that lot without native Dante?  As a package, Powersoft seem to have smashed it out of the park in terms of all round capability vs value for money.

We have also just started swapping our smaller systems and monitor rigs over to Powersoft T604 amps, which offer half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply, but for much less money.  I'll let you know how we get on with these, but the first few gigs have gone very well with the one we are trying out.

I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I do have real world experience of this kit.
so you got any T604 home yet ? what would say about them ?


-------------
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: Shelfstacker
Date Posted: 17 January 2019 at 10:05am
Yes, we have had a T604 for 6 weeks or so.  So far so good, it is indeed a mini X4 with slightly fewer features, but full Dante and Armonia.

I can't tell you about flat out 28hz 1 ohm bass performance with 6x 21" a channel, as that isn't the marketplace we're in.  I have hung some JBL VRX/SRX off it though, and had no problems with various 500 to 800 capacity shows.  That's 4 x SRX718 and 4 x VRX932 over 4 channels, on a 16 amp connector from heavy mains power.

We also have a Quattrocanali 4804 that was used heavily last year, and the T604 performs very close to that, albeit it in a more sturdy, road ready package.

I've got to say, these days, we are more often asked to turn stuff down rather than up, so outright performance in voltage/SPL terms isn't something I come across often.  For us it's more about overall sound quality, pattern control, seamless scaling, reliability, durablity, portability and cost of ownership.  All these recent offerings from Powersoft that we have tried have really performed well in those areas.


-------------
If you are at the circus and being attacked by clowns - go for the juggler


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 17 January 2019 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:

Yes, we have had a T604 for 6 weeks or so.  So far so good, it is indeed a mini X4 with slightly fewer features, but full Dante and Armonia.

I can't tell you about flat out 28hz 1 ohm bass performance with 6x 21" a channel, as that isn't the marketplace we're in.  I have hung some JBL VRX/SRX off it though, and had no problems with various 500 to 800 capacity shows.  That's 4 x SRX718 and 4 x VRX932 over 4 channels, on a 16 amp connector from heavy mains power.

We also have a Quattrocanali 4804 that was used heavily last year, and the T604 performs very close to that, albeit it in a more sturdy, road ready package.

I've got to say, these days, we are more often asked to turn stuff down rather than up, so outright performance in voltage/SPL terms isn't something I come across often.  For us it's more about overall sound quality, pattern control, seamless scaling, reliability, durablity, portability and cost of ownership.  All these recent offerings from Powersoft that we have tried have really performed well in those areas.
thanks for the info boss, am waiting for some , nail biting half my nails are gone am afraid I might start biting fingers , lol 


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Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 18 January 2019 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:


Powersoft T604 amps, which offer half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply, but for much less money. 


Looks interesting but what does it mean " half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply "
Is it even weaker in its class than the X4? I mean continuous & burst ratings?
The problem with the x4 is the really weak power supply, I would expecting that powersoft develop something more robust, not weaker ;)


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 18 January 2019 at 11:51am
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:


Powersoft T604 amps, which offer half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply, but for much less money. 


Looks interesting but what does it mean " half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply "
Is it even weaker in its class than the X4? I mean continuous & burst ratings?
The problem with the x4 is the really weak power supply, I would expecting that powersoft develop something more robust, not weaker ;)

I absolutely did not expect this response.Wink


Posted By: ArthurG
Date Posted: 18 January 2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by Shelfstacker Shelfstacker wrote:


Powersoft T604 amps, which offer half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply, but for much less money. 


Looks interesting but what does it mean " half the power of an X4, with a less sophisticated power supply "
Is it even weaker in its class than the X4? I mean continuous & burst ratings?
The problem with the x4 is the really weak power supply, I would expecting that powersoft develop something more robust, not weaker ;)

I absolutely did not expect this response.Wink
He is still absolutely right..


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 12:15pm
but then again, it probably does the job Ermm


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 12:52pm
"Probably?" 

When we have tested X4 collapsed, run out of steam only 2 channels was loaded by wide-range high capacity boxes (~2000W and 4R per ch) driven by bit more heavy type music but clean and unclipped even 3* 400Vac strong 32A input!!!
The whole construction of the amp reflecting that it has been designed to deliver duty cycles of average to peak way bellow 1:10 ratio.

For which job X4 is OK? Driving PA speakers on the bus or train station...


Posted By: Shelfstacker
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 1:19pm
Again, we are nothing but happy using Powersoft X8, T604 and Quattrocanali 4804 all in real world situations, day in, day out.

Having previously owned 23x K8's that got to 10 years old and still seemed to have life in them,  I have very little to complain about of Powersofts products. 

I'll let somebody else answer Viktors ramblings, I'm a a bit busy actually being out using the products in the real world. 


-------------
If you are at the circus and being attacked by clowns - go for the juggler


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 1:32pm
The K series are very different, we have some of K10 and K20 (also Martin's own version for subs)
K10 can deliver much serious average rates when required (K10 better than 1:2 while the X4 is 1:10 or so).
It is still NOT perfect, I know that not everyone happy with Powersoft's sound quality but +3.. +6dB more what X4 can do.
Sure there are some trajectory on the speaker market too that you can get very very famous brand's top line array or highend boxes for really lot of money while they are completely scrap, can not deliver demanding tones.. power and SPL ratings are inflated: these are a perfect match to X4 :-D


Posted By: Shelfstacker
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 8:54pm
Sorry mate, I have no idea what you are on about.  I was talking more of reliability of the K series, rather than brute output.  They lasted 10 years, I'm happy.  I hope the new stuff last 10 years.

The new kit does more than we ask of it, not sure what you are slagging them off for, they work really really well for us and many other people.  Good luck with whatever it is you use.




-------------
If you are at the circus and being attacked by clowns - go for the juggler


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 9:16pm
2008: POWERSOFT
2018: POWERSOFT

This is the problem. They went to a direction of covering cheap hardware by
fancy software tricks. Behringer is on the exactly same path and now they own LabGruppen :-(


Posted By: wires
Date Posted: 19 January 2019 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

2008: POWERSOFT
2018: POWERSOFT

This is the problem. They went to a direction of covering cheap hardware by
fancy software tricks. Behringer is on the exactly same path and now they own LabGruppen :-(

LOL What are you on about? Comparing powersoft to Behringer...

Powersoft are now providing efficient products for real world applications.
X series is aimed at the touring market, where reliability and functionality is high on the list. Not outright bass and maximum spl - although they do a pretty convincing job.

The t series aimed at more mid level applications - small systems, monitors, delays, infills, etc.
Not for 4 sub per channel, bass monsters. That’s where k series still dominates.

Behringer products on the other hand is aimed at mass user market. Affordable gear with loads of features.
Nothing wrong with that, a place for both in the world.

Not sure if your affiliation with them but I’ve got to admit I was ready to part with cash for some pkn last year as heard good things vs affordability, however I was really put off by your touting of the brand and belittling others so decided to demo the others first.
Glad I did as ended up purchasing a stacks of x series after great real world results... and even more this week.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 21 January 2019 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by wires wires wrote:

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

2008: POWERSOFT
2018: POWERSOFT

This is the problem. They went to a direction of covering cheap hardware by
fancy software tricks. Behringer is on the exactly same path and now they own LabGruppen :-(




LOL What are you on about? Comparing powersoft to Behringer...

Powersoft are now providing efficient products for real world applications.
X series is aimed at the touring market, where reliability and functionality is high on the list. Not outright bass and maximum spl - although they do a pretty convincing job.

The t series aimed at more mid level applications - small systems, monitors, delays, infills, etc.
Not for 4 sub per channel, bass monsters. That’s where k series still dominates.

Behringer products on the other hand is aimed at mass user market. Affordable gear with loads of features.
Nothing wrong with that, a place for both in the world.

Not sure if your affiliation with them but I’ve got to admit I was ready to part with cash for some pkn last year as heard good things vs affordability, however I was really put off by your touting of the brand and belittling others so decided to demo the others first.
Glad I did as ended up purchasing a stacks of x series after great real world results... and even more this week.


Don't worry, you can't buy piles of PKN even if you have the money, because they ask for months lead time... speaking of which, Viktor, can you show us the mythical 3PHASE on a gig yet?

It's only been six years...

So yeah, I'll take the real world, available, but mildly compromised amps which can still burn any woofer on earth, long term, over the Hungarian unicorn.

-------------
http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.neuronproaudio.co.uk



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