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12 line array cab plan

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Printed Date: 26 March 2019 at 12:07am
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Topic: 12 line array cab plan
Posted By: rayrainx
Subject: 12 line array cab plan
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:22am
Please somebody advice me.. Are these line array plans a GO. or is it just a bunch of crap? Happens to be the only available line array plan on the internet I have seen on sale.
http://spragueaudioworks.com/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://spragueaudioworks.com/index.html



Replies:
Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:36am
Odd.. I thought Sprague made capacitors.

The plans look ok to me though.


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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:33am
That is not a line array it just sorta looks like one. The real magic of a line array happens in the DSP processing and even then only when every single driver is on it's own amp channel and the boxes are designed to work correctly in a column. You will get none of that with the above plans, yes it will make a bunch of noise but there won't be any control over it.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:59am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

That is not a line array it just sorta looks like one. The real magic of a line array happens in the DSP processing and even then only when every single driver is on it's own amp channel and the boxes are designed to work correctly in a column. You will get none of that with the above plans, yes it will make a bunch of noise but there won't be any control over it.


Three posts and every single one is horse crap, a new record for SP!

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Posted By: rayrainx
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 3:28pm
whats your opinion toastyghost


Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:24pm
Stand under a home-made 12 box line-array? no, thx, lol


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

whats your opinion toastyghost


Build a point source if you need one. Buy a line array IF you really, actually can prove you need one.

That means a show of over 2000 capacity, with the ability to fly it. After you’ve done the training, research and worked on some other shows using one.

A line array is not just a vertical hang of boxes, it’s the entire deployment from pre show design to hang to verification alignment and tuning. Its as simple as that really.


Oh and the thing you posted, is good for firewood. No data, no dice. Besides, the tech is over 20 years old at this point. You can buy a better box than that with a known badge, known data, known presets, and support for less than the cost of building and designing one.

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Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:44pm
"A line array is not just a vertical hang of boxes, it’s the entire deployment from pre show design to hang to verification alignment and tuning. Its as simple as that really."

That´s more or less what Conanski said! So why call his post horse crap?  Confused



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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Odd.. I thought Sprague made capacitors.

The plans look ok me though.


how reassuring Ermm


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"A line array is not just a vertical hang of boxes, it’s the entire
deployment from pre show design to hang to verification alignment and
tuning. Its as simple as that really."

That´s more or less what Conanski said! So why call his post horse crap?  Confused



Because they’re not the same thing at all. I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP - quote the opposite for a good sounding hang - nor that it only works when every driver has its own amp channel and DSP. If that was the case then for L’Acoustics don’t make a line array and they bloody invented the things! At that point it isn’t really a line array anymore and you can clearly see that in the MLA marketing and training.

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Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"A line array is not just a vertical hang of boxes, it’s the entire
deployment from pre show design to hang to verification alignment and
tuning. Its as simple as that really."

That´s more or less what Conanski said! So why call his post horse crap?  Confused



Because they’re not the same thing at all. I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP - quote the opposite for a good sounding hang - nor that it only works when every driver has its own amp channel and DSP. If that was the case then for L’Acoustics don’t make a line array and they bloody invented the things! At that point it isn’t really a line array anymore and you can clearly see that in the MLA marketing and training.



Ok, understand - but without the appropriate DSP (and setup) 'line arrays' are just a bunch of boxes making a load of noise...






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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"A line array is not just a vertical hang of boxes, it’s the entire
deployment from pre show design to hang to verification alignment and
tuning. Its as simple as that really."

That´s more or less what Conanski said! So why call his post horse crap?  Confused



Because they’re not the same thing at all. I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP - quote the opposite for a good sounding hang - nor that it only works when every driver has its own amp channel and DSP. If that was the case then for L’Acoustics don’t make a line array and they bloody invented the things! At that point it isn’t really a line array anymore and you can clearly see that in the MLA marketing and training.



Ok, understand - but without the appropriate DSP (and setup) 'line arrays' are just a bunch of boxes making a load of noise...






Technically, so is any speaker...

The training and deployment is what makes a line array work. There’s a reason the old VDOSC manual was over 400 pages long and had a LOT of theory. Sure, the big boys have software tools to save time with that and I believe too many people with line arrays out there are just operators and not engineers now, but that’s a privilege that cash reserves and doing it for ages affords. A beginner would still need to do enough theory to make a workable design let alone actually hang it and make it sound good.

The VDOSC manual even reminds you that you don’t get a ‘line array’ effect for the full range of the box and that the stated nominal dispersion is actually different on the main frequencies of interest. Funny what manufacturers won’t say, these days.

Dig that manual up, it’s a quick google and great reading. Mandatory for anybody thinking about building rather than buying.

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Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

The training and deployment is what makes a line array work.

Probably.. but I've yet to see a world-renowned engineer setting up an off-the-shelf array (and being world-renowned for doing so). What I mean by this is that they most likely designed and built the rig from scratch.


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Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:35pm
what??

do you actually know what a line array is?


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

The training and deployment is what makes a line array work.

Probably.. but I've yet to see a world-renowned engineer setting up an off-the-shelf array (and being world-renowned for doing so). What I mean by this is that they most likely designed and built the rig from scratch.

What??????

Name one world class engineer you've watched setting up their own design and built line array?


"Ive yet to" makes it sounds like you watch it every Tuesday.  


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

The training and deployment is what makes a line array work.

Probably.. but I've yet to see a world-renowned engineer setting up an off-the-shelf array (and being world-renowned for doing so). What I mean by this is that they most likely designed and built the rig from scratch.
Holy god, a new milestone.


Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 6:15pm
I did not think it could get any worse but obviously there is no end in sight for his constant idiotic posts---I think it will only end if Ian(jbl man) gets involved with his big baseball bat.


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 6:22pm
It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed and/or validate himself, and to comment on everything that he reads in these forums whether he has experience of the subject or not.

Rather like AOLers 30 years ago LOL



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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed and/or validate himself,


And how exactly is that different that what you and the others are doing? So what if the guy doesn't have a lot of experience, be an adult and just ignore his posts if it's that big a deal to you.


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed and/or validate himself,


And how exactly is that different that what you and the others are doing? So what if the guy doesn't have a lot of experience, be an adult and just ignore his posts if it's that big a deal to you.
I dont think anyone else posts for a need to be noticed, what concerns me is a newbie taking some advice from him and causing damage to his kit or himself, then that would be a big deal.


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

  I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP -
Neither did I.. I said the magic happens with the DSP, yes you can build speakers and not use DSP but it'll be a crude noisemaker compared to one that has custom processing applied.


Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

  I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP -
Neither did I.. I said the magic happens with the DSP, yes you can build speakers and not use DSP but it'll be a crude noisemaker compared to one that has custom processing applied.

you dont need dsp for processing to be custom


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

  I didn’t claim there’s magic DSP -
Neither did I.. I said the magic happens with the DSP, yes you can build speakers and not use DSP but it'll be a crude noisemaker compared to one that has custom processing applied.


But it really doesn’t. The exact same tools are used in point source systems, every day.

The ‘magic’ if you want to call it that was their insistence on training people before you could buy it, as well as reducing truck packs. Simple as that.

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Posted By: rayrainx
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 8:21pm
there is a detail sample plan for the LA112 I just want to know if the box plans are good enough for a starting point..some guys here are making it sound like the line arrays fell down from space..am interested in getting the cabinet part of things right first.


Posted By: rayrainx
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 8:32pm
the theory behind line arrays are very simple and straightforward to me..any one can actually make them..if the sample plan for the LA112 provided in the website is typical to a line array box and will work well with the recommended drivers and couple with the design for the wave guide, then.it means a great deal to me...some body must have ripped open a line array cab in the past and modelled it right?


Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

some body must have ripped open a line array cab in the past and modelled it right?

I did that with a Labtec 2.1 speaker set.. I just took out the active parts and put them into a single enclosure to function as a monitor.

A large line array requires some means of flying it.. a small, 2-box system would work on a pole or on top of a stack. I've been looking at dB Tech DVA M2M but it's ~1,7k a side, and they'd need proper subs.. which in turn are 2-3k per box, one on each side so we're talking around 10k and a processor would be great but not a necessity since they have inbuilt DSP.

So far I've spent like 100e on my system in a year.. maybe a bit more if you count in the electronics like the mixer, crossover, amp (I only have one atm) etc.


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Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

the theory behind line arrays are very simple and straightforward to me..any one can actually make them..if the sample plan for the LA112 provided in the website is typical to a line array box and will work well with the recommended drivers and couple with the design for the wave guide, then.it means a great deal to me...some body must have ripped open a line array cab in the past and modelled it right?


It is not good, it will not work and it will sound shit. Stop thinking about it and find something what actually works.

I'm not going to spend my evening writing here what is wrong with it, so i'll just say it in shortest possible form: Everything.



Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

some body must have ripped open a line array cab in the past and modelled it right?

I did that with a Labtec 2.1 speaker set.. I just took out the active parts and put them into a single enclosure to function as a monitor.


What the these have to do with each others?


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:02pm
3pages.... gotta be a forum best

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Posted By: rayrainx
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:04pm
why will it sound shit? I believe if a single box will sound good..then it can be arrayed..with proper eq, DSP and delay settings including good sub's ..I think it can't be far from the real stuff


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

why will it sound shit? I believe if a single box will sound good..then it can be arrayed..with proper eq, DSP and delay settings including good sub's ..I think it can't be far from the real stuff


What you think and what happens in reality are 2 different things. If you look for a white paper by some small guy from L-acoustics who explains how line arrays work, you'll find out that this box hasn't got anything right.


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed and/or validate himself,


And how exactly is that different that what you and the others are doing? So what if the guy doesn't have a lot of experience, be an adult and just ignore his posts if it's that big a deal to you.


It's vastly different.  I and many others don't pontificate on matters about which we know nothing, and nor do we give out incorrect advice.

It's a big deal because some inexperienced newbie visiting here might use some of his ill-informed advice.

Generally I do ignore his posts (or laugh unbelievingly at things like his plastic mouldings) but in the last few days he has constantly posted innacuracies; viz. his notion (in the PKN H8 thread) that you can only use active boxes over short distance unless you have a very capable mixer.


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Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

why will it sound shit? I believe if a single box will sound good..then it can be arrayed..with proper eq, DSP and delay settings including good sub's ..I think it can't be far from the real stuff
HF dispersion. There's one. There's one reason it won't work.
Rather then this barrage of f##king nonsense I thought maybe giving you one good reason it won't work would be a good start.



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Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:49pm
you would probably be better off with a different system unless you are doing very large venues or outdoor events. if you really want a line array just buy a second hand one. if you had the experience to run a line array you would already know this though without having to ask this forum. I say this as someone who has never operated a line array - but I realise what I don't know. there are others on here with a lot more knowledge than me telling you the same.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Originally posted by rayrainx rayrainx wrote:

why will it sound shit? I believe if a single box will sound good..then it can be arrayed..with proper eq, DSP and delay settings including good sub's ..I think it can't be far from the real stuff


What you think and what happens in reality are 2 different things. If you look for a white paper by some small guy from L-acoustics who explains how line arrays work, you'll find out that this box hasn't got anything right.


rayrainx: both Pasi and I have said the same thing although he was a little nicer than me. This is a box built by someone who knows what a line array looks like, and not how it works. Likewise even for some commercial products to be honest.

Go read the FULL VDOSC manual and whitepapers. Run some mock simulations in their free software. Go work some shows for free as a box shifter and ask questions afterwards, politely, about the deployment. Then think about maybe building a few boxes for fun, to experiment. But don’t think you’re remotely close to the real thing by downloading some point source box plans with the HF horn made narrow on one axis and rotated by 90 degrees.

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Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 06 January 2019 at 3:35pm
This thread reminds me of the heated internet discussions that were going on 20 years ago, when calling something a "line array" had become the new way for manufacturers to persuade unsuspecting customers to buy their speaker systems...

The term "line array" has no scientifically defined meaning and therefore it can mean whatever you, or a manufacturer, wants it to. A bunch of speakers laid out in a line.

On the other hand, the term "line source" does have a specific meaning, as defined in any good book on acoustics.

With considerable R&D effort, it is possible to make something that has many of the attributes of a Line Source over some (or even most) of its frequency range.

The most successful of these are the ones with full DSP control and amplification integrated into the speaker cabinets. MLA and Anya, for example, are line array systems with highly optimised alignment that gets them close to line source behaviour. They also have further facilities to divide the array into sections and break up the coverage pattern into more than one beam. The manufacturers of these are careful to avoid calling them "line arrays" but this is for reasons of market differentiation - they have taken the concept a lot further and are so much better than what the term usually implies.

Quote I believe if a single box will sound good..then it can be arrayed...

This is usually not correct. All through the 1980's, manufacturers and their marketing departments persuaded customers to buy "one box" systems on this basis. Some sounded lovely in isolation, but none of them worked properly when combined in large quantities. A typical large festival system only sounded good at the mixing desk, which of course is not where most of the audience are. But it is where the FOH engineer and management listen to the show from, and they are the ones who hire the sound company...

Due to the size and shape of the audience areas at most large-scale events (you need to consider these as if viewed by the loudspeakers) it is easier to mitigate the ill effects of combining multiple speakers by designing systems that work better when stacked vertically. Doing this also makes it easier to design systems that can be flown from a minimum number of suspension points, which drastically reduces the time and cost of installation and de-rig. So the old One Box systems gradually got replaced with vertically arrayable cabinets, which everyone called "line arrays", some of which worked better than others in terms of acoustic design.

If you want to design a tall thin column speaker that has some attributes of a line source, you need to design the whole column first, then break it up into modules that are easy to transport, handle, and connect together. Having done this properly, the individual box probably won't sound very good on its own...

As has been mentioned, the V-dosc was a complete concept - including full system design, training, and user certification. The user and training manuals were particularly good (by Paul Bauman, I think?), as was the training course, and contributed greatly to its success. It was the first modular line array system of its type and was very well designed for its time.




Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 07 January 2019 at 9:58am
Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed and/or validate himself, and to comment on everything that he reads in these forums whether he has experience of the subject or not....



How very dare he; that's MY fooking job.

I feel the need to find a socapex and shove it where the sun don't shine...and not one of his efin' SELV DMX ones; one running 6 channels of dimmer up it, at full brightness, over 3 phases, with all earths and RCDs removed.


Jog on with your baseless "I read it on Wikipedia" statements that you are trying to pass as fact. One of these days, your keyboard diarrhoea will cause someone to either loose a lot of time, money, or, when fecking with significant power, maybe worse.

FFS



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Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 08 January 2019 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed


Says the man who insistently posts everything in bold....

Oh the irony

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Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 08 January 2019 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:

It appears that he has a constant need to be noticed


Says the man who insistently posts everything in bold....

Oh the irony


And a Happy New Year to you too, you Norty Norty man Big smile

And you forgot size 2 and Verdana font, and it's not ionsistent, it's consistent LOL


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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 08 January 2019 at 10:13pm
Do you have this manual somewhere? How many pages exactly? Or just give something characteristic for google.

There was another line array topic with link to pdf explaining how fucked up is the impulse response of 3 boxes. Cant find it Ouch


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 08 January 2019 at 11:38pm
You can literally Google “VDOSC manual”

I have some measured impulse responses of a real array vs a Jericho on our website...

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Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 7:14am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

But don’t think you’re remotely close to the real thing by downloading some point source box plans with the HF horn made narrow on one axis and rotated by 90 degrees.

Wait, it is not?! Fock, you just made some big brands R&Ds lose their design conceptShocked Duran Audio Axys is the most ridiculous one I have seen I think. Nova also has some "great" ones...


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 8:49am
And here comes 119 pages update from 2013 and 5 leaflets..

If you are saying about coaxially mounted speaker vs danley horns... notice BMS triaxial drivers and what is happening around their crossover frequencies.
Has any of those big brands producers published weightened directivity plots?
Look at the reflex plot of eighteensound reflex:
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18_Sound_12_2_Ways_v1.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18_Sound_12_2_Ways_v1.pdf
So only one producer is not ashamed?Embarrassed

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


I have some measured impulse responses of a real array vs a Jericho on our website...
How would you compare best Danley to best line array?

I think Elliot posted link to this paper. I just dont agree that reflex impulse response is lame. Nor to the conclusion of triple peak impulse response. It may happen on frequencies where wave will be splitting so far into hf range but im not convinced that it will look like tripple peak on single mountain. Tapped horns has this strange not decaying impulse response.


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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:52am
Ray, all these people talling you it wont work are just talking out of their asses and play wise man.
Its gonna be awesome. Go build it.


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

And here comes 119 pages update from 2013 and 5 leaflets..

If you are saying about coaxially mounted speaker vs danley horns... notice BMS triaxial drivers and what is happening around their crossover frequencies.
Has any of those big brands producers published weightened directivity plots?
Look at the reflex plot of eighteensound reflex:
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18_Sound_12_2_Ways_v1.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18_Sound_12_2_Ways_v1.pdf
So only one producer is not ashamed?Embarrassed

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


I have some measured impulse responses of a real array vs a Jericho on our website...

How would you compare best Danley to best line array?

I think Elliot posted link to this paper. I just dont agree that reflex impulse response is lame. Nor to the conclusion of triple peak impulse response. It may happen on frequencies where wave will be splitting so far into hf range but im not convinced that it will look like tripple peak on single mountain. Tapped horns has this strange not decaying impulse response.






No, not a coaxial speaker. It's a real measurement of a 10 deep hang of a big name line array, large format. I won't say which, but it's similar for many of them.

You can 'think' all you like, I prefer to 'verify' and 'measure'.

I also never said anything about reflex impulse response nor tapped horns. You asked about line arrays...

If you can't be bothered to read the manual you asked for, then that's on your head dude. It's hardly massive, and is immensely useful. It should frankly be required reading.

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Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 1:40pm
genome:
actually very simple to answer. Jericho is superior sound quality wise as long as one box per side is sufficient for the venue. For 20.000+ Pax, there is no way around a Line Array though.
Kyle posted a sheet of notes he took from a Merlijn van Veen training where he wrote: Tonal variance is worse than level variance.
this summs up so many aspects of pa speakers design and deployment in such a short sentence that it is actually genius to me.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 2:06pm
Not so sure on 20k+ needing a line array. It's one solution sure, but then you're doing zero degree horrors to achieve it. I'd rather use out-fill, and delay lines with BIG point source if the option was available.

But yeah, that one resonated with me a lot (pun intended). I'd rather listen to/give an audience a consistent tonal sound at as many seats as possible than make sure all of them have a big number on an SPL meter. The infamous early line array 'nasally' sound outside of the pit / behind FOH is totally unacceptable to me. Strides have been made in that area - seemingly, treating the systems as sections of coupled point sources through array processing techniques, either done by computer or done by humans with FFT - but there's also still a lot to be said for improving direct to reverberant ratios at more seats.

To do that, you also need a better-behaved source, though.

I don't hate line arrays, far from it, they're a great tool that's massively improved the consistency of audio deployment for over 20 years. I've done multiple courses, manufacturer specific and agnostic, on designing and deploying them and done plenty of hangs myself. We own line array.
But I do think they're pretty much a done deal and there's only so many 'magic' tricks you can apply, many of which the big players already seem to have deployed

None of which currently appear to be able to tackle the primary issue of Europe being a pretty windy place with variable temperature.



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Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 2:33pm
Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...

We ask our computer to design a nice line array hang that will generate a consistent sounding main lobe, that will *just* cover the audience plane but no more. Build it, tweak it with all the latest measurement toys, and verify its performance on an empty venue at the soundcheck.

Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?



Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 2:46pm
Sounds like Glastonbury 2007, per chance.

Thermal layers refract waves....aim it as much as you want, but as the wave passes through the difference in density/S.o.S. difference, the wave bends from original path.

Wind is a doppler effect I presume, artifact of S.o.S. being only one or two orders of magnitude bigger than typical windspeeds, 30mph ish wind is 10% of S.o.S., and becomes significant. Although I would of thought some events may be suspended due to structural limits Vs some wind speed.

Mewh. Putting sound waves through air as a medium is a real PITA.

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Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 4:51pm
I know virtually nothing about line array systems, but - just curious ....

Do they generally just use a heap of reflex double 18s below the line array elements, or is there (typically) an upper bass/kick region section aswell ?
And am I also right in thinking the mid-top flown boxes are typically 2 x 8" or 2 x 6.5" high-power mid-range units with CD ?

If so - what kind of frequency is used to cross from bass boxes over to the flown boxes ?



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Posted By: lickweed
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 5:21pm
you have big format line array,exemple:2x15" or 2x12" then medium then small.
depends on size of audience in general


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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

I know virtually nothing about line array systems, but - just curious ....

Do they generally just use a heap of reflex double 18s below the line array elements, or is there (typically) an upper bass/kick region section aswell ?
And am I also right in thinking the mid-top flown boxes are typically 2 x 8" or 2 x 6.5" high-power mid-range units with CD ?

If so - what kind of frequency is used to cross from bass boxes over to the flown boxes ?



Whole range of options, from tiny drivers through to 4 way boxes, through multi-element arrays like MLA.

The trick is, for whatever driver you use, for any particular frequency band, they have to be physically close enough together, in box and inter box, so their physical centres are closer than the wavelength they are trying to produce. Then, if your total length of line is of the order of magnitude of the frequency you are trying to get pattern control over, you then get some interesting effects.

The main desirable effect is to break the inverse square law. A point source in space, will obey 1/r^2; double distance, remove 6dB. The wave emanates as a surface of a sphere in all directions, see pic:



Now, if you can get your line array long enough, you can make your wave emanate from it as a cylinder, not a sphere, so for doubling of distance, only -3dB reduction in volume.


Consider how a long ribbon tweeter works; a proper line array tries to do the same on a much bigger scale, to achieve a lower cut off frequency.

However, big problem from multiple sources is destructive interference, what we call comb filtering. The trick of keeping drivers close to each other, relative to the wavelength they are reproducing, is this comb filtering is greatly reduced, but you get the cylinder type propagation of wave.


With HF, where 10KHz wavelengths are below 33mm, 15KHz is 22mm, etc, you can see how getting the individual drivers close enough to form cylindrical summation is a ball ache. In these bands, they resort to waveguides to keep the HF wavefront as linear/cylindrical as possible, eg 90 deg H x 10 deg V is typical.

MLA is a bit cleverer. It uses constructive and destructive interference to create pools of nominally flat sound, so at any one spot on the field, it should sound the same as any other, just a bit louder or quieter. By using multiple drivers to aim noise at any one spot and time delaying others to same spot, you can achieve this, and even get destructive interference outside your fields boundary, to try and minimise spill. Requires some serious number crunching.


Whether anything sold as being a line array actually is, is up for discussion, and certainly not unless you hang enough of them to actually achieve a very long line. And then you have to actually deploy the blasted things, calculating and tweaking interbox angles and power shading to get nice even coverage.

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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 5:42pm
It should be noted though for any cylindrical wave emanating, at "some distance" from origin normal inverse square law will start to work as normal, as air "friction" above and below the wave, will tend to draw the cylindrical expansion, into a spherical expansion.

The ball ache is that this "some distance" is frequency dependant, as ever, so HF will hit it at a different distance to MF to Low. Often this point is in the reverberant far field any way, but still another thing to overcome.

Ultimately LA are "typically" quicker to rig, by less bodies, from less fly points, so for a tour accountant, they are cheaper and therefore chosen, over old school F1 ResX arrays or similar blue or black boxes.

I am going to jump ship and become a lampy or a Vidiot, far easier.

-------------
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by lickweed lickweed wrote:

you have big format line array,exemple:2x15" or 2x12" then medium then small.
depends on size of audience in general


Except that doesn't cheat the physics. The property of an array is equivalent to line length, regardless of the size of the drivers contained in it. Matt may love his new RCF, but six boxes a side of 6.5" array is a small point source array, just one with nice rigging!

You will get spurious side lobes up and down, perpendicular to the hang, plus a large amount of rear radiating energy up into the roof. The amount will vary with frequency, based on line length and curvature. Everyone curves the array because otherwise, it sounds horrendous and inconsistent.

Again, I refer back to the VDOSC manual, which clearly states the frequency range you can expect a cylindrical effect (its not the entire box, nor even the entire HF range) and the 'real' dispersion vs stated. Something most manufacturer's now seem to choose to omit, but still provide data for, if you know how and where to look for it.

The main thing is to download some prediction software for a premium brand, and play. Look at the response in plan and side views, using 1/3 oct width, and scroll down the frequencies from VHF to lows, and see how the pattern and 'throw' changes.

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Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 6:35pm
Gor blimey guv - didn't expect anyone to write that much :-) .... thanks anyway.

Yeah I understand inverse square law and comb-filtering (got some maths/physics education).
But I kinda assumed the flown boxes were the ones with the s/w trickery controlling the DSPs, and that the bass boxes were just normal clutches of non-directional bass box driven by amps without any particular DSP trickery.

Is s/w controlled  DSP used to steer/control the bass frequency bands also ?




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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 
You can 'think' all you like, I prefer to 'verify' and 'measure'.
Maybe I just value your subjective opinion.
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 
I also never said anything about reflex impulse response nor tapped horns. You asked about line arrays...
It wasnt you. Maybe Elliot gave link to this. I cant find this topic.
toasty any link is always very appreciated.

I got pulled with those coaxials, but basicly using one horn is just another solution in fight with wavelengths.
One more thing. Point source doesnt especially mean one cone/membrane. At higher frequencies centre of the speaker can play 180deg out of phase than outside. And there can be multiple different modes from unicornland. With cone in free air it will affect directivity. If you make compression horn though, this issues will have to solve on transition frequencies between different modes, in phase plugs.
Using one horn like Danley where you can use appropriate size of a membrane to run away from membrane modes and ring diaphragms at higher end you still have to fight against circumference on horn entry points.

Here is what happens with the impulse response of reflex boxes in line array setup as the listener moves x meters from the stage. Those are 4 boxes arrayed like line array. All the listeners at different distances listen to the same frequency response with slightly different levels. So naturally it represents the concept of line array.
Im curious whats happening in more complex deployments.

Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Yeah I understand inverse square law and comb-filtering (got some maths/physics education).
Basic math doesn't work hereOuch


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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?

So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?


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Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by corell corell wrote:

genome:
actually very simple to answer. Jericho is superior sound quality wise as long as one box per side is sufficient for the venue. For 20.000+ Pax, there is no way around a Line Array though.
Kyle posted a sheet of notes he took from a Merlijn van Veen training where he wrote: Tonal variance is worse than level variance.
this summs up so many aspects of pa speakers design and deployment in such a short sentence that it is actually genius to me.

But for real, how often is a concert rig deployed to 20k punters? Granted, these kinds of events do exist, but are generally restricted a handful of touring bands and a few more festivals for any given region, no? Only Olympic stadium in Berlin has that kind of capacity for a single stage, save the makeshift parks turned festival grounds for Lollapalooza (which is moving to Olympic stadium), and Brandenburg Gate, which needs delay lines for its big audiences anyway. The 2 outdoor amphitheaters, the various arenas - all under such capacity, and where 99 percent of the action is.

It might be different in other markets, but for the Berlin metro area, I can't see why any rental company outside of the big l'acoustic shop would need to worry much about such larges audiences, yet they all carry line arrays, even for small gigs


Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?

So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy


Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Is s/w controlled  DSP used to steer/control the bass frequency bands also ?

sometimes. A bit of delay and you can easily move bass around, depending on the listening area and sub deployment.  This paper demonstrates how fairly well.  http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publications/AES131_LS7_Subwoofer_Arrays.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publications/AES131_LS7_Subwoofer_Arrays.pdf


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?


So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy


I see your video and raise you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lxj7535S-g" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lxj7535S-g

Also gen0me, check the circumference of the entry hole for the 15" drivers on a J3-94, for example.

Anyways, to avoid this turning into promotion, my main issue is people being told and expecting their tiny hang of tiny boxes to behave remotely like a line array except for in a really narrow HF section. Even more so when ground stacked.

Yes, in principle, you can get cylindrical behaviour down low. The best result I've seen with that goal was NIN in Houston, Dec 2017. It was a RAT deployment of K1, and it was 18 boxes a side, hung in very gentle curves, with 18 KS28.

The capacity of the stage was 5000 people.

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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?

So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy

That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.


-------------
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?


So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy


That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.


Just goes to show that any kit can be setup badly! It has quite low HF distortion though, which side by side with boxes that have single drivers driven super hard, sounds like a 'dull' HF in the upper region.

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Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy

That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  The harmonic design system was demonstrated with one and 2 tops per side on, and I thought it sounded noticeably worse with both on.  I was surprised how much one speaker punched above its weight, but I didnt think it sounded better than the J3. The only other acoustic memory I have from those days was that the funktion one demo had really loud subs compared to everyone else but their tops sounded like garbage.

The purpose of my video was to demonstrate how the danley speakers held up over distance and how much quieter they were behind the stack/hangs, since such videos were not common


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Also gen0me, check the circumference of the entry hole for the 15" drivers on a J3-94, for example.
There wont be any noticeable. They are low frequencies. Problem is with high frequencies. Up to 2khz you can do with waves really a lot for 8" for example.
Anyway if you compare this solution to other presented it is still years ahead:)
PS also this circumference is probably different that the one that appears in phase plugs. There is no resonance excitation here.


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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by madboffin madboffin wrote:

Ha ha yes. Not just the wind either...
Then somebody puts 50,000 people in front of it, each generating 100W of heat, or substantially more if it's a rave and they are all dancing.

What happens?


So you have bigger chance to fix it using Danleys? Lift crane up/down? Tilt more?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy


That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.


Just goes to show that any kit can be setup badly! It has quite low HF distortion though, which side by side with boxes that have single drivers driven super hard, sounds like a 'dull' HF in the upper region.

Those Harmonic Desing tops have 4 HF drivers. Not one.


-------------
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MM-Acoustics
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy

That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  The harmonic design system was demonstrated with one and 2 tops per side on, and I thought it sounded noticeably worse with both on.  I was surprised how much one speaker punched above its weight, but I didnt think it sounded better than the J3. The only other acoustic memory I have from those days was that the funktion one demo had really loud subs compared to everyone else but their tops sounded like garbage.

The purpose of my video was to demonstrate how the danley speakers held up over distance and how much quieter they were behind the stack/hangs, since such videos were not common
System sounded so bad that i even called Mike Heden (Danley's owner) to tell him to do something about it because people were reacting very bad to the sound.
There is a talk about this here on the forum from that time. It wasnt only me but pretty much everyone i talked with at the show.
The SPL limmits are set, but they are measured A weighted, which means you can push the subs as loud as you like to. Hence you comment on the F1 demo. They are shaking the entire area every year. So that is not an excuse.



-------------
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:16pm
Just  to set the things clear, the year before that they had a different setup that sounded excellent. 
But the one from 2017 simply sucked.


-------------
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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 09 January 2019 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  
They have to... If those basses would be fast and punching then how would you time align them to the Jerichos precisely? Add another crane?Big smileEmbarrassed


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 1:10am
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  

They have to... If those basses would be fast and punching then how would you time align them to the Jerichos precisely? Add another crane?Big smileEmbarrassed


I find with a single 2nd order Allpass at 150Hz, with a Q of 1.5 works pretty good in a similar configuration, myself

But I agree with Marjan sadly, it wasn’t a great demo. The guys used APL TDA for tuning I believe and I’m wary of any software that claims to be magic and only needs you to wave your arm around your head a few times at one position to get ‘perfect sound’

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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:06am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Matt may love his new RCF, but six boxes a side of 6.5" array is a small point source array, just one with nice rigging!


I have never claimed anything else!

I am well aware that my line length is not even close to be long enough to generate any cylindrical wavefront effect. I think max hang hardware limit is 16 boxes, and even that is not going to be long enough to amount to much!

With HF being 10degV, it almost forces you to form spirals/curves to minimise HF clash between boxes.

But, with a bit of EASE planning, bit of listening and tweaking, easy to make a pleasant noise, for the small scale gigs I do. And 1 man deployable!

3 HDL6-A to 1 8004S-A seems the ratio of choice

And they are only 2 x 6" per box (2" VC!), with 1" throat, 1.7" VC HF on a waveguide doing 900Hz and up, 100x10deg. And their mostly plastic! Proper willy waving numbers!

I can hear you dry wretching from here!

For the money; awesome - convenient and good enough. If I had big events and a huge budget, would have obviously gone bigger and better, but for where I am right now, gets me back into the pond.

-------------
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 12:05pm
Saying all that, nice article in LSI this month about point source still being relevant.

Admittedly, bit of a puff piece about Autograph, using KV2, doing some tours to "provincial" theatres, but it is the LSI mag!

However to quote p22 of LSIonline Jan 2019 edition:
Originally posted by Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show wrote:

It sounds a bit old-school, but in reality, if there's a part of the room that we need to cover, we install a loudspeaker, and point it there - it just works.


He also mentions that most small theatres don't have fly points for line arrays anyway, so point source is easier to move from venue to venue.

Back to what should be common sense really, right tool for the job, and LA is just one tool.

-------------
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Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Back to what should be common sense really, right tool for the job, and LA is just one tool.

According to the band a city full of them.


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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:


He also mentions that most small theatres don't have fly points for line arrays anyway, so point source is easier to move from venue to venue.
Its no point to mount it on height of the heads either. If you want even coverage it has to be far from audience. So placement reflects coverage.


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Saying all that, nice article in LSI this month about point source still being relevant.

Admittedly, bit of a puff piece about Autograph, using KV2, doing some tours to "provincial" theatres, but it is the LSI mag!

However to quote p22 of LSIonline Jan 2019 edition:
Originally posted by Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show Andy Sharman - Sound No1 on tour of Kinky Boots stage show wrote:

It sounds a bit old-school, but in reality, if there's a part of the room that we need to cover, we install a loudspeaker, and point it there - it just works.


He also mentions that most small theatres don't have fly points for line arrays anyway, so point source is easier to move from venue to venue.

Back to what should be common sense really, right tool for the job, and LA is just one tool.


Autograph aren't the only ones talking about it
https://www.psneurope.com/business/danley-sound-labs-uk-plans?fbclid=IwAR0HHf536S7GQMfRzE6delCMs-kiqMhnGFv1CGuyBx-q9g3K53H6xa014BA" rel="nofollow - https://www.psneurope.com/business/danley-sound-labs-uk-plans?fbclid=IwAR0HHf536S7GQMfRzE6delCMs-kiqMhnGFv1CGuyBx-q9g3K53H6xa014BA

And I get you on the RCF, it's a tool for sure, and it doesn't sound bad, and the rigging is pretty slick / invisible which sadly is what matters more to most events than the overall tonal quality.

Flexibility makes more business sense even if it doesn't make much sonic sense.

Since we're talking about the HDL6A, how about we look at some data? All single box, driven with AES Broadband signal:

Horizontal isobar


Vertical isobar


Transfer function


Horizontal off axis freq response deviation


Same but vertical


Directivity index


Max SPL (although it seems they have entered max SPL data as sensitivity and vice versa in the GLL file, curious if that's a trick to make plots look better in Focus 3...)



Make your own conclusions as to the effectiveness of the horn and how well the box complies with it's stated nominal dispersion or line array theory. I'd be applying a LPF at 16KHz myself, to avoid that splashiness above.

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Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIpJ5sgdb6Q

granted, not even 50 people, but it was windy

That system there sounded horribly wrong. No dynamics at all. Dead at 50hz, dead at 8Khz. That small Hormonic Design boxes that were hanging beside it, killed it badly in sound quality.

I don't know how any of that stage's systems were tuned aside that the danley system had to have some bass removed to comply with the trade fair sound police. While this thread creeped a little bit into sub territory, 50 hz would have been covered by different speakers than the tops, and you would be one the few people to say that danley's subs suck.  The harmonic design system was demonstrated with one and 2 tops per side on, and I thought it sounded noticeably worse with both on.  I was surprised how much one speaker punched above its weight, but I didnt think it sounded better than the J3. The only other acoustic memory I have from those days was that the funktion one demo had really loud subs compared to everyone else but their tops sounded like garbage.

The purpose of my video was to demonstrate how the danley speakers held up over distance and how much quieter they were behind the stack/hangs, since such videos were not common
System sounded so bad that i even called Mike Heden (Danley's owner) to tell him to do something about it because people were reacting very bad to the sound.
There is a talk about this here on the forum from that time. It wasnt only me but pretty much everyone i talked with at the show.
The SPL limmits are set, but they are measured A weighted, which means you can push the subs as loud as you like to. Hence you comment on the F1 demo. They are shaking the entire area every year. So that is not an excuse.


F1 stage was in the the inner yard, the other demo stage was close to a hotel, which ironically I assume was full of trade fair attendees, anyway. My understanding was that the danley stage still had something like 16 dB headroom and one of the demo ops said they had to turn down their subs.

The last I had done the outdoor demo stage walk was over 10 years ago, which was when it was in the middle of having sex nowhere except close to houses where people lived next to the trade fair grounds, so was surprised at the amount of bass F1 was allowed to push, especially because none of the other systems in the inner yard pushed their bass that much.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:40pm
Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue:

16k


8k


6.3k


4k


1k


315hz


Anybody see any kind of cylindrical wavefront effect in play? At what frequencies? Not a trick question, I'm genuinely asking if someone can point out where you get only 3dB loss per doubling of distance. Feel free to recreate the sim yourself, it's just using free EASE Focus 3 and the data on RCF's site.

So to all those people who say the inter-box interactions aren't that noticeable, look at the plan view, and the side view. Now imagine you have important audience members in some of those nulls.

Or, imagine that there's a reflective, concrete wall behind the stage, and a tin roof above, at the height the sim stops. Check out the spurious side lobes that come in hard at 6.3KHz and again at 4KHz. The rear beam and side lobes at the midrange. How nice would your mix be in a difficult venue, let alone with open mics roaming in the space?

This is my main issue, they're useful tools but there are clear flaws that have serious impact in the real world. But of course, smoothed measurements, broad views of multiple octaves, filtered stimulus all makes this less obvious, and often a sim and design isn't even done, it's just thrown up and the boxes aimed roughly where the crowd are.

For what it's worth, I never, ever use autosplay for a real gig, but many, many people do.


Also sorry Matt, I'm not picking on you or your new baby, it was just a box at the forefront of my mind and RCF actually share data in an easy to find place

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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Also sorry Matt, I'm not picking on you or your new baby, it was just a box at the forefront of my mind and RCF actually share data in an easy to find place


None taken, don't worry!

And, as you mention, the RCF data is freely published by them, and it does reflect what you hear.

As you also said, flexibility and ease/cleverness of rigging was really important, even to the detriment of sound. And, what I paid per box was silly cheap!

However, in their defence, you should do the same EASE work with some of the competition! I did, and they were even more horrific.

I presume the 800Hz horizontal drop out is a function of the 6" drivers being 300mm apart, but the HF horn comes in from 900 Hz. Perhaps they should have got it to work lower?

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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:00pm
Oh trust me, I've done the same sims and real world measurements with plenty I'd advise anyone looking at using, let alone buying, an array to do the same.

My main issue with this sort of tiny box is the HF horn is really only working like a line array horn from 8k to 16k. Below that it's into normal point source horn territory, with all the comb filtering you'd expect, unless you go for extreme angles that then mess up the lower frequencies.

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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

For what it's worth, I never, ever use autosplay for a real gig, but many, many people do.

Agree on autosplay being a bit mewh.

Tend to use it for first guess, and then fiddle to see what changes as angles change, and then do my own "iterations". As ever, it is about adjusting until the compromises are optimised to real life.

Funny you picked 315Hz as one of your lobe pictures, my first use was just a couple on sticks and EASE did predict the lobe aimed directly at mic at 315Hz, and, on site, it was there! Forewarned was forearmed, so no great issue, and gave me some faith that the EASE data was true.

-------------
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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:34pm
Basicly looking at this there is no chance you would get as huge tonal variation from well design horns sprayed by each other (f1 style spraying).
Are you sure they are properly tilt? How with the manual positioning?

Notice on the second post tonal variety on 1khz. On the view from the top you can clearly see the centre of spl on audience is moved from another frequency sims. 
This:

Is unweighted. Keep in mind 0db on axis to keep it into perspective that for it you still need dsp work.

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


My main issue with this sort of tiny box is the HF horn is really only working like a line array horn from 8k to 16k. Below that it's into normal point source horn territory, with all the comb filtering you'd expect, unless you go for extreme angles that then mess up the lower frequencies.
What could be better hf waveguide choice for this splaying? This one clearly has issues around 1k and under 2.5k
Or things would change with better manual splaying?



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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:42pm
F1 style spraying: 2 bottom ones splayed 40deg give the top one:
1 colour is 2db.
Its intended bandwidth is up to 2.4khz. Higher you would have to deal with hf horns.


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Posted By: efinque
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue

Cool.. are those measurements/graphs hard to take?

I mean, do you need a special measurement mic to plot from several positions or something?


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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 8:47pm
hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.

These issues occur on ALL line arrays, but at different frequencies depending on box size, arrangement, J curve and line length.

efinque: the data is a simulation calculated from GLL balloon data, which is a full 360 degree measurement of magnitude, phase and impulse taken using a single mic in one position, and the speaker rotated in all directions in one degree increments using a robot arm. Usually done in full anechoic or semi-anechoic environment, with the latter being a windowed measurement.

To be really effective at the entire range of stated frequencies a line array HF horn just needs to be really, really deep. Like more than a metre deep.

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Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Just to continue the 'data' fun, here's a hang of 6x RCF HDL6A, flown 6m trim, with autosplay. Input signal is AES Broadband pink noise, and the complex summation is enabled up to 16KHz. By default they don't have it up this high because it's heavy on the CPU. All views are 1/3 oct. I've only flown this high to make the dispersion clear, but it's a realistic trim for a gig in say a 1000 pax theatre venue

Cool.. are those measurements/graphs hard to take?

I mean, do you need a special measurement mic to plot from several points or something?


Those graphs are using data in the form of 'ease' files which are supllied by the manufacturer so users can model the acousti c response of different arrays to work out what would work for their needs.The graphs can only be as accurate as the data provided ther efore measurements would normally be done with a reference grade measurement mic, the amount of data to be collected is not insubstantial, I have not persoanally looked at the criteria but would frequency response and phase response at multiple positions over a 360 sphere around the loudspeaker if I'm not mistaken.

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare, at 1Khz likely to be the 2 * 6” drivers narrowing due to spacing as full width of the cabinet is a radiating surface around the xover frequency.


Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.
Dsp in terms of eq which is the same on each box? Or dsp as applied delays to boxes, or even doing fft on every box input, and using linear phase filters. Composing frequencies back from fft with different delay applied.
First one?
Im curious how far can go the second one.

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare
See that 8" flare dont have it in its usefull bandwitch or rather it can be equed flat independently from listeners position.


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Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

hen0me: these are boxes with built in DSP. The data is collected with the DSP and all correctional tools from factory already applied. The splay is ‘correct’ as much as any given splay is ‘correct’ - it’s down to design goal for the hang, and there are things you can do to help mitigate these issues but as Merlijn says, pick your battles because you don’t have long even if you have a million channels of DSP.
Dsp in terms of eq which is the same on each box? Or dsp as applied delays to boxes, or even doing fft on every box input, and using linear phase filters. Composing frequencies back from fft with different delay applied.
First one?
Im curious how far can go the second one.

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Gen0me , narrowing at 2.5Khz may well be 'waistbanding' caused by the shape of the horn flare
See that 8" flare dont have it in its usefull bandwitch or rather it can be equed flat independently from listeners position.

Not possible to eq it flat if it's due to the waveguide geometry, if it's due to filter/phase interaction then maybe possible to do something with dsp.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 10:28pm
Default EQ which is the same on each box, and some factory presets for some generic hangs I would assume.

At this level of box I’ll be very, very surprised if anyone is remotely deploying it in close coupled coherent sections, each with their own filtering, independently measured.

Typically on a ‘proper’ system you break the hang into three or more clusters, aiming at specific parts of the audience, and sharing inter-box angles. You can then measure each ‘cluster’ and treat it as one box.

Often EQ does very little here, because it will make other issues worse at other positions, and it has a serious law of diminishing returns. In fact it’s often better to drop the hang and change angles based on new predictions and verification.

However some careful allpass placement or delay can help, but again, you need to measure in minimum three positions, on axis. When you’re happy, you verify off axis, and copy to the other hang.

The funny thing is, at this point, you’re actively trying to reduce the tonal variance in response because of HF absorption, LF buildup, and the inconsistent ‘cylindrical wavefront’ behaviour. Which means you basically push them back closer to a vertical hang of big point source ‘boxes’. So why not just use big, true point source boxes in the first place, rather than this mish mash of different design components?

The other issue is, how much time do you have on a real gig to do this? With shorter load in times, most gigs needing sound checks for multiple bands, and other people working on light, screen, etc? Let alone shows with more than a left and right. This is why so many people whack the boxes up by eye, or at best, spend ten minutes in the prediction software. Particularly at the level of smaller, cheaper cabinets. E.g. smaller than 1500 cap.

Hence the drive to preshow design and FIR calculation with uploads to the boxes on site. FIRmaker, etc all do this, and rely on good venue and box measurements. Very few are verified properly in the field, the tech is trusted, and frankly, the work of the algorithm is kind of beyond a field measurement anyways. Which makes more and more ‘engineers’ become operators, really, which is a fundamental problem.

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Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 10 January 2019 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

 Very few are verified properly in the field, the tech is trusted, and frankly, the work of the algorithm is kind of beyond a field measurement anyways. Which makes more and more ‘engineers’ become operators, really, which is a fundamental problem.

+1


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 1:53am
http://youtu.be/rmu52IgZmnA" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/rmu52IgZmnA

Lol




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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 4:03am
Even better...




Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 7:12am
Perfect Smile


Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Even better...




Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!

-------------
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Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 9:41am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Typically on a ‘proper’ system you break the hang into three or more clusters, aiming at specific parts of the audience, and sharing inter-box angles. You can then measure each ‘cluster’ and treat it as one box. 
What about those lobes?
Or do they disappear on longer arrays?

PS. Here are conditions from 4*8 I used for impulse response:
Black dots are the listeners. Not every listener is on the chart. On picture above distance between 1 dot is 1m. Z is distance on the chart.


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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 10:37am
I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

However, whether you have Vdosc deployed, or something naff deployed really as best it can be, you can see that LA is not the magic bullet it is sold as.

My own choice was mostly down to flexibility, multipurposeness/convenience of box, and sound quality was down the list - I am not proud or recommend it, but just being honest. It was also a silly price! I reckon with some feckin' about I can get a "good enough" sound so that the average punter is happy, but by cutting back on labour/transport costs, I can keep promoter/client happy as well.

A point source set-up would probably sounded better, Martin H3T+ over 218+, or equivalent, but I would always need a second pair of hands for lifting and shifting, which, at my runt end of the market, budget does not always allow for.

In short, I get paid. I'm a whore, but truthfully, who isn't? We all have bills to pay, mouths to feed, and at some point I wouldn't mind a nice holiday, or a new(er) car...

However, as Toasty as eluded to, even he is effectively using LA as clusters/arrays of point sources!

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

*Retires from lit touch paper, and hides in bunker*

-------------
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:13am
gen0me: those lobes are in the domain of the waveguide and where it loses pattern control (900Hz to 8KHz) so the angle will change based on line length and curvature, but they will always be present. The resolution is not fine enough to see but there are many more cancellations in between boxes, at various distances and positions. This is why you get the ‘swishy’ sound.

Honestly play for yourself, EASE Focus 3 is free and so are the data files. It’s super easy to use and you can compare to many many boxes, TW Audio, DAS, even Void use it.

The bigger guys have software that doesn’t do explicit side views (Sound Vision) or uses coarse resolution of 1m blocks (ArrayCalc) só you’ll never see it there... MAPP XT does however, and well, look at how bad the HF waveguide was in some of the pre LYON arrays from Meyer. MINA is a shotgun above 10k!

Matt: not just me pal, this approach is taken from the full four day Meyer course, Merlijn van Veen’s courses, the documentation for MLA and Anya, same for ArrayProcessing by d&b, and one of AFMG FIRmaker’s target goals (albeit better explained by the K Array documentation).

Also, I totally get it. Our most profitable and most busy boxes are by far YAMAHA actives. Second to that is the SM80, which is a 12” coaxial on a massive bowl.

The more ‘real’ line arrays out there are the stupidly huge columns from JBL, K Array and Renkus Heinz, but those are focused on beam steering and are also very expensive. The RH sounds lovely to my ears but it’s so much cash!

And on that note, have a read of this, download the PDF and listen to the embedded recordings within it of column speakers in a church:
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2015/07/31/tectonic-loudspeakers-at-techny-towers/" rel="nofollow - https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2015/07/31/tectonic-loudspeakers-at-techny-towers/

Use good headphones. There are three or two front runners to my ears, and one of them isn’t a line array, and costs about a third of the others.

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Posted By: Racks&Stacks
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 11:48am
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!

Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?


Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.

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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

Originally posted by MattS MattS wrote:

Didn't Nexo do some hardware and presets for doing that with PS15s!?!


Wasn't that with a top cab inverted on top, rather than landscape arrayed?
The Nexo at least has the rotatable asymmetric horn.


Actually I'm struggling to find it, so I may be efin' up.

I know I did hear one, at a cabaret venue of a hotel in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic, 4 PS15 a side, landscape, flown "Arrayed" with what looked like "proper" rigging. On my return from holiday, looked it up and found it, but now can find no reference to it, apart from on Alibaba....

Ignore me, having one of those days...already. I can still taste the toothpaste FFS.

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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 11 January 2019 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

I think this discussion is quite refreshing, for years "Line Array" has been fashionable, and therefore deployed - as much for the potential for cheaper rigger/rigging costs, but also claimed "magical acoustic benefits" by manufacturers! Most of the acoustical benefits are tenuous at best, if they ever existed at all, and it is finally being called out. Certainly on short line lengths, it was bolloxs.

Does this mean - are you ready for this - Ol' Golden Ears Andrews was right all along!



Something to consider is that since most manufacturers dropped everything to try to compete with the fancy vdosc boxes which quickly changed the market, line array modules were the ones benefiting most from any wave guide and driver improvements. Also, since dsp got better and cheaper, it was easier to develop improvements to basic line theory designs (as long as the driver spacing reasonably played by the rules), than tinker with less forgiving horns.

Given that tony built his own line array, it is less an issue to me whether he was right or wrong as to whether his previous designs were good enough to cut through the competitive market. I mean, the resolution horn design is essentially a tweak on the flash/flood stuff. If those weren't going to take over the world, painting the box a different color wasn't going to, either. I've never critically listened to his speakers in large arrays. Do they actually behave much better than the tech he kept patting himself on the back for not using? What makes a res or evo box better in clusters than a kf650 or w8c, given similar dispersion and array building style?


Actually the VERO is far from a line array nor tries to be one. It is a wide point source box, that happens to hang vertically. It’s essentially two EVO mid axeheads flanking a vertical stack of two or three ‘standard’ HF horns, depending on whether you’re talking about the 60 degree wide or the 90 degree wide box.

They call it ‘geometric energy summation’ but that seems to be branding for shoving an axe head like fin between each horn’s exit as you move down the row vertically.

They also insert the triple 15” kick section every so many boxes to break up the hang.

Unfortunately there is no public data for the boxes, so I can’t verify how much comb filtering there is, but given Tony’s other designs in the past, I would wager it has a bunch because he seems to think it’s relatively unimportant and in fact, the EVO measurements in Peoduction Partner indicate that it’s part of the design to smooth out the dispersion when you use two or three boxes. You can see that on the isobars where the horns narrow in coverage as they move down in frequency.

That said, out of the box they do sound very nice on the mid and high. The lows, not so much. I’ve never been a huge fan of BPH and don’t think I ever will be.

The boxes are not magic still, and benefit from similar treatment and measurement as any other. The best EVO deployments I’ve heard used allpass and more even in a smaller pineapple. VERO I’ve heard three times and each was hit and miss from set to set but it was early days.

Again, this is a step in the right direction to me and I think it could be great - I would love to deploy it myself sometime to find out. But I still would rather use a better point source, a true point source in fact, and maybe 3 or 4 in a hang in total. Fewer sources, fewer interference problems. Better behaved sources, with pattern control across their ENTIRE passband, not just a tiny fragment, and fewer problems again...

The real world needs multiple boxes. I don’t deny that. But it shouldn’t need as many as you have to hang in a typical good line array deployment, and it should need less work, and sound better. It’s been over 20 years, and VDOSC launched around 20 years from the start of ‘real’ tours with various point source boxes.

The funny part is the big guys sort of know this, and they have their own projects on the go from what I’ve been told. But they don’t want to cannibalise the huge sales of 64+ boxes at once they currently have, and nor do the driver manufacturers - just think how much B&C’s pockets grow every time d&b sell a GSL or KSL rig, with its minimum box count and buy in! Hell, the d&b V7p and V10p is about as close to a Synergy style design as you can get without actually making one

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