I am trying to have better integration of hogs and es18 and i basically found easier to flatten the response by crossing them at 65hz LR 48db octave

Thing is...whats the bad Side of It? Never see settings with LR 48db, mostly 24db...d

Will post pic later

30/60hz lr 24db hog (32/85hz -6db points)

60/130hz lr 24db Kicks  (58hz/126hz -6db points)

Almost no eq

Vs

30/65hz hog with 48db lpf

80/130hz es18 with 48db lpf

And lots of eq To get -6db Point for both At 75hz

They kind of measure the same...

these are HOG 30hz 24db LR / 65hz 48db but and ES18 80hz 48db but / 130hz 24db lr, and the sum after delay applied

hog 30/60 with es18 70/130 all LR 24db

got lots of other measurements. I didn't apply any eq in the last setting

all these measurements are of three hogs with 3 es18 above them, thats one of two stereo stacks

I work on the basis of using the lowest order filters possible to protect drivers and put the different sections in phase across the crossover region. the other approach is to use the highest order filters possible so that even if the phase relationships aren't right the crossover region is so narrow you can't hear the problem.

set your delays first.

I think is simpler if you apply a 30Hz HPF to your whole system rather than just the hogs - it means if you change the 30Hz filter you don't screw up the 65Hz crossover relationships.

having done this you can probably change the HPF and LPF on the ES18 to first or second order to get parallel phase traces.

you won't necessarily get a flat response doing this but you will maximise the in-phase overlap between the subs and kicks which increases your max output. you can use eq to get a flat response if that's what you want.

unprocessed ES18 with b&c 18nw100 sitting above an hog

I got some technicians I know to make it for me. their setting is phase and time aligned. the sub response isn't what I wanted as theres no low bass just a massive 60/90hz bass and while I can use that system for a party, in terms of 'dub sound system' sessions, I don't want any vocal out of the kick bins and I don't like hogs much at 90-100hz, when its just the bassline playing it needs to be just that, and I prefer have bit of headroom on mid tops, without any bass coming out of them.

i have their preset on the dsp ;)  

I may still put butterworth 12db on the kicks if they would mix better with the hog that way

With the filters 

But no delay and phase inversion and no eq

these are hog 30-60 24db LR and es18 68-12db butterworth to 130 24db LR, best I could do in phase alignment...after applying delay the 50-90hz part is within 30degrees of phase...any suggestions to make it better?

As ES18 and hogs are totally different boxes I suggest second approach. 

Plus crossover is pretty low so far away from kick area. Shifting time between 40hz bass and 80hz is not important.

acoustic crossover is around 75hz...

when I got the dsp I had some technicians to try setting up the system, I just gave it to them without giving them any input other than "lets put it in phase, got no time nor knowledge to do it"...

and they did, using various combinations of filters, hog is 35hz w/12db butterworth and 100hz 24db LR, kicks are 68hz/100hz butwerworth 12db, mid top starts at 100hz 12db LR, plus massive eq on hogs and 125hz on mid top, everything is in phase and sound ok for normal use, but theres no low bass at all (hog is -6db down at 52 and 90hz), and the mid top doesnt sound natural with all that 125hz boost, I've tried at full tilt and almost destroyed everything, and I can't really play with -6db @ 52hz, but if I change the hog settings, all phase alignment gets ruined...

so I have to do it by myself now, I can still use the old analog setup but of course I try to get better results

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sxz3AfQ2dfRzAogmvLbDe86_2af7gMD7/view?usp=drivesdk" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sxz3AfQ2dfRzAogmvLbDe86_2af7gMD7/view?usp=drivesdk

First is some high freq noise (~15khz) that will be used as referrence, than 75hz.

So first play it on es18 (+usual hf setup) and record.

Than repeat with hogs +hf.

It will tell how much you have to move delay to be phased.

my method was this, first I measured the boxes with no settings;

I added hpf, lpf and eq to have them quite flat but with a little overlap on crossover points and no direct 24db LR crossover, that from previous tests wasn't working good for phase alignment;

found the delays with REW this way https://forum.speakerplans.com/time-alignment-using-rew-and-cheap-mic_topic102425.html;

adjusted again eq to help with phase alignment, things didn't change much

added delay til I got a the biggest hole in response, then flipped phase on crossover and got the combined response, and its fine someway but

but still the es18 is 70hz -6db at 72hz, 12db butterworth at 68hz, I can cross lower and get to 50hz but then I need to eq that out to get phase more in line with the hog. not what I hoped, and what seems possible for others, if I touch the eq I mess the phase response...50-80hz overlap with hogs would be nice, 70/85hz overlap I was already getting it from the analog equipment. having upgraded to dsp and not getting things right would be a shame :) but being a newbie thats quite possible

YES, CANT USE IT, AND THANKS FOR THE TIPS

these are unfiltered hog and es18 

king david wrote: i basically found easier to flatten the response by crossing them at 65hz LR 48db octave

You have your answer:

How do you want to put them together?

You know that under 75hz time integration of the sound is not important. Sounds are or parts of the kick or just basslines. There are no harmonic parts of the higher notes. That makes it pointless to time-delay them on impulse responses. Just on crossover frequency.

Honestly well made setup with hogs + kicks plays it this way: kick is always played separately not affecting hogs at all during initial fast part.

are You suggesting to avoid overlaps and have steep 24db crossover or even 48?

If you play them separately after puting filters time align them. If you try them together: first time align them than put filters than time align and repeat.

How exactly did you time align them? On those impulses?

You cant make those impulses cover themselves. Other way you can make 75hz (on acoustic crossover) cover itself on both boxes. And have in mind that those boxes group delay mountains are going totally crazy around.

.

Yes I have.

I may be wrong I just simmed something similar to es18 and th18.

Both have similar gd slopes around your crossover. So approach with low order filers may work.

I do realize the point of setting group delay is to maintain impulse response without stretching it into multiple echos but here comes the problem: if keeping the peak of impulse response together shifts the acoustic crossover frequency sinewave k*2pi than around that frequency will show up valleys in response. And it wont sound seamles anyway. Most enclousures have huge group delay mountain around their bottom end of the bandwidth which together with flat higher end of response guarantees shifting acoustic crossover frequency sinewave n*2pi.

Toastyghost there is still some transient data in signal from wave I presented as sinusoidal 75hz starts sharply. So you can notice how both boxes react and choose the relevant mountain.

Basicly you are time aligning from impulse responses and then choosing acoustic crossover with filters on ears.

I am time aligning choosing acoustic crossover first on ears after choosing filters.

Your way gives you more flexibility on frequency alignment, mine more flexibility on choosing filters. I have to time align them every time I change frequency.

I was wrong:

Using toastyghost method you DONT have to align them every time you change filters. Only once with unfiltered freqs.

PS: boxes on which producer creates, boxes of mastering person and boxes on stage have different group delay responses. It leads to conclusion that higher order harmonics can be shifted without hurting sound.

King david can you export impulse responses to .wav? File>>Export>>Export impulse response as WAV.

HOG SCOOP 30hz 24db lr to 130hz 24db lr and reference (comp driver at 5-6khz)

ES18 with same reference and 3.5ms delay

and phase with the hog above. now both hog and es18 peaks measure at 27.4ms from the reference

HOG SCOOP 30-60HZ 24DB LR and 0.2ms of delay

ES18 60-130 24DB LR

And how phase overlap looks like

combined response

If the measurements posted can help others, thats the point of the forum i guess