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look at tops to build

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Topic: look at tops to build
Posted By: MHayes
Subject: look at tops to build
Date Posted: 15 April 2019 at 5:31pm
looking at building tops to go from 80 - 100hz up over 8 br subs. but don't know what to go for -
1. 4 x http://www.jobst-audio.de/public-address/m-serie/115-jm-sat212 - http://www.jobst-audio.de/public-address/m-serie/115-jm-sat212
    loaded with 18 Sound 12ND710 / ND1424bt / XR1464
issue is getting the crossover from the builder as it can take months for them to build and deliver
 
2. 4 x http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=JMSKIT1581&browsemode=manufacturer - JAM Systems MT1581
   loaded with 1 x Oberton 15MB35, 1 x Sonitus MR8XT, 1 x Beyma TD164 Horn, 1 x Beyma 
   CP385Nd, 1
isuue is that I haven't heard any reviews
 
price is not an issue (within the above mentioned), Weight also is not an issue (max 45-50 kgs, ideally happy around 30kgs)
 
which one to go for? or are there any other ones?
 
Thanks,
Matt



Replies:
Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 12:35pm
Peter Morris's dual 12" plus BMS coax designs over on soundforums.net.
Haven't checked pricing wrt your suggestions above though so may be a little spendy.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by DMorison DMorison wrote:

Peter Morris's dual 12" plus BMS coax designs over on soundforums.net.
Haven't checked pricing wrt your suggestions above though so may be a little spendy.


They’re pretty damn good but just be aware that to run them ‘properly’ you do need to spend good cash on the HF driver (ideally the HE variant of the coaxial BMS) and have proper DSP as well. I don’t think FIR is essential, at all, but if you’re not using a Lake or Powersoft platform you’ll need to be able to measure and align on and off axis to get the best results. Same for any box though, to be fair.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 1:25pm
The PM90/60 also works with the RCF ND950 1.4 , and only costs around 240 euros. 


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 4:19pm
PM60's have always been on my mind and was religiously following it over soundforums about until a year ago. Only that HE was/is way above budget. Good to know ND950 is possible.
 
one issue is the to run them properly, still learning but I think I should be able to get by. I until now have come across a few situations where I was tested and was successful at making them sound good/bearable if not best, with just my ears. learning how to eq with the help of tools is a work in progress.
 
another issue is, internal crossover, don't want to be lugging extra amp, wires and more channels on my crossover. I know passive crossovers are the best way ahead. but as per what I think if they are designed well, then I don't want to add more to the signal chain for a 5% improvement.
 
so for now either building one of the above 2 mentioned tops, still tops my list over PM60.
but if PM60 (with RCF) is twice louder than the 2 mentioned above then its going to be the PM60s, as its already established that they sound super.
 
Thanks
Matt


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 4:37pm
What is your budget?

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 4:42pm
haven't set a budget, but over a course of 2-3 months about £3000-4000 for all four. can stretch a bit more.


Posted By: spongebob
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 5:33pm
If you're looking for a woodworking project and have the cash to spare, then please ignore my next comments...

Why build with that sort of budget? For that money you can buy a fairly serious pro audio mid-top that will actually have a resale value when the time comes. Hell, once you get into the £500-£700 a box region you're looking at some fantastic kit, let alone £1000 a box


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 16 April 2019 at 6:22pm
I haven't discarded that option. but I haven't seen one for that price (Used is not an option).
Was just recently looking at Yamaha DZR 12 (x 4 single) and comparing them to 4 x JM-sat212 (with 2 x 12ND710 + ND1424bt / XR1464) . I understand it's powered vs passive.
12nd710 as per what I have read is one of the best drivers with the highest sensitivity, so I doubt Yahama will be using a better driver than 12nd710's. 
also not worried about resale for now, more important is what price I pay today. ( I see a better value and quality in building than buying. also if something happened to the speaker I know where to get parts from rather than wait weeks for oems and I'm sure the loss on resale will be covered). 
 
also I could be wrong, maybe Yamaha (for eg) is better in terms of quality, coverage and spl. but that's the thing. I still don't completely understand how to read the spec sheet (which all of us have been warned to take it with a pinch of salt). even then the next thing is the overall tone, which is subjective and for that I don't have the option to do sis by side comparison.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 17 April 2019 at 9:19am
So what's available at £1000 a box thats better than a pm60?


Posted By: IvCu
Date Posted: 17 April 2019 at 10:55pm
I'm running pm90 for few months now. 
Since first play and today there is night and day difference, they are just getting better and better. But as said above, measuring and experimenting is a must. I also have RCF ND950 in it Smile


Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 17 April 2019 at 11:40pm
You'd pick up a pair of Res4 for that price or thereabouts or enough EAW to make the next county cry.

I like home builds but your talking enough money to buy 2 pairs of floodlight plus spare money to build kicks. You're gonna have to be putting out some artisanal monk-grade homebrew to beat used pro tops.


-------------
Don't test the champignon sound


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 12:08am
lol


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 1:06am
If you like the idea of a conventional direct radiating "multifunctional" top with a passive x-over but are afraid of jobst-audio's waiting/delivery time, you might want to take a look here:

https://www.bs-tek.de/bausaetze/fullrangelautsprecher/bs-m-14/" rel="nofollow - https://www.bs-tek.de/bausaetze/fullrangelautsprecher/bs-m-14/

support there is excellent.

HF horn is rotatable, so these array fairly well to 120° a side if needed.


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 1:23am
good to hear PM90 with nd950 are working out for you. what are you using below them?

Yes, as much as i would like to get to get the funktion1s or others in that price range, i just think that for the moment they are not for me. maybe in future. for now i'm mainly looking 4 good tops that can take upto 8 basses and maybe 4 more in a cpl of months.

already got 4 single 15's but i keep blowing the mids on them. 2 are just good enough for 2x 18s. but, not for 4 x 18's. 

but basic idea is to be able to do multiple events at the same time and if required use everything at once, and 12 basses at 1 event is the limit i see my self going to atleast for another year or 2. 

thanks,
matt



Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 1:56am
thanks corell. i did look at them as well as PAF212 + many others.

only thing is that they are single 12's/14's

when i am using my 15" top (usually 2 bass with 2 tops per side) for most genres its fine and i absolutely love the way the whole system sounds. only when i play techno on them i have to considerably down the highs and lows to get decent mids. it's only when im playing techno i have managed to get the mids blown.

when i'm using 8 basses, i usually rent 2 dual srx tops and use 2 15s as center fills and 2 as side fills.

that is the only reason i think BS tek's wont be enough.

Thanks,
Matt


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 10:48am
my heart will always be with building rather than buying.. but they're right about second hand kit these days. one thing to bear in mind is that home built speakers have no real resale value. you'd spend a lot building these but you won't be able to sell them for anything close to what you spend on building them. . but any of the EAW / fk1 type tops mentioned, they might depreciate a bit but you'll almost certainly be able to sell them on for pretty close to what you bought them for in a few years.


Posted By: Cyklist
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 11:29am
Originally posted by IvCu IvCu wrote:

I'm running pm90 for few months now. 
Since first play and today there is night and day difference, they are just getting better and better. But as said above, measuring and experimenting is a must. I also have RCF ND950 in it Smile

what waveguide and DSP are you using?


-------------
purple monkey dishwasher


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 12:26pm
Agreed Cravings, that the resale will certainly be more than that of a home brew. but, I don't think ill be selling them as space is not an issue.
another thing is that if its home brew, I don't really have to care about dry rentals. - if something happens I know where to get the parts from and less hassle over oems. -chips/dents/box fell over 20ft, no worries, just paint it or make a new box. -less chances of theft over res 4 :D 
 
-also lets take into consideration that I got of JM-Sat 212 or pm 60s, that like 20-25 kgs vs 40-45 kgs res4.
-I can buy 2 res4s or make 4 jm-sat212 or pm60 (rcf 950). I can do 2 events rather than just 1 with res4 if need be. and I don't want to be lugging a 40+ kg top box when I'm doing a slightly small scale event that needs only 2 basses per side.
-doing a corporate event, I certainly don't want to be taking something that came out of an action movie set.
+ many more advantages and there are disadvantages as well that I haven't listed.
 
for me, having 2-3 dedicated system for specific event is a long term goal. also buying high-end branded equipment is something that needs to be earned (not money wise) which I'm still learning.
 
I am more than happy to be handed over factory preset and other goodies cos I have paid the price for the full system. but only after I have acquired enough knowledge to not need it.
 
thanks,
matt
 


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 12:29pm
Hey Matt,

what single 15" are you currently running?
I personally find that i can bring 3-4x 18" BR subs per Top (single high grade 12" -15") for techno music. About 2x 18" BR per Top for Live.
So curious to hear what theproblem is in your case.



Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 1:09pm
HK Audio L115's.. bought them used.
 
never used for live events, only for dj events with different genres.
 
most crowd is for techno events in the range of 350 - 600 max. usually lows are over powering and I usually have to turn it a notch down (around 6db if indoors and 3bd for semi outdoor events) so that it sounds clean. but when I do that the overall energy is too low and I'm being asked to increase the overall volume, which the speakers (mids) cant take.
 
so I end up bringing the lows back (usually around the last one hour) up to 0 db and at this point the sound is bassy and personally gives me a headache, its like your living next door to a club and all you hear is vibration. (hope I explained well).
 
the crowd and the event organizer are happy with this and all I get is compliments. I'll be doing this again next week. and as always they will be too drunk to notice what I did there in the last 1 hour. but, I am looking at not having to do that in the future.
 
thanks,
Matt


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 3:28pm
Can you post a picture of the 15" used in the HK Audio Top? Would like to check whether it was thermal or machanical damage (if you have blown them, you probably took them out aswell ;) )

The BS Tek (and also JM Sat) is a WHOLE different beast than the HK audio.
The HK is an entry level speaker, probably with a 2,5" VC and ~3mm xmax for the 15" and a way to high crossover point to the small 1" so that the midrange suffers. This is the case 95% of time with budget 15" tops.
The BS Tek has a 3" VC 1,4" HF (probably costing as much if not more than the whole HK cab) crossed at 1,2 kHz and the 14NDL76 has like 8mm xmax and great midrange reproduction. I guess its at least 6db louder than the HK, closer to 10dB for equal distortion figures. I would be really surprised if 4 of them would not be enough for 8x 18" BR. I usually run 2 of them (or similar tops)  (one per side) for techno and honestly feel like the bass is limiting, not the MF/HF. And i run some pretty decent 18". ;)

Problem with 212/215 boxes is that it needs an even bigger HF and horn so that you can have a low crossover point to prevent heavy vertical beaming. You are looking at BMS4590 or 4" VC drivers here (same as in the PM60). Even then, you will not have a very mulitfunctional box as it wont have any more than 30-40° vertikal dispersion throughout the crossover region, which is not that suitible for infills/monitoring etc.

Whats really limiting with a direct radiating top is the "throw", not the SPL.


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 4:06pm
Thanks corell, this makes it so simple for decision making.
 
main issue was comparing my tops or any other similarly priced ones. without knowing the drivers used in it or other basic parameters and all just mention 128db peak, 131bd peak etc. which doesn't make any sense without a&b comparison which I don't have the option for.
 
so now I'm almost set on bs-teks or jm-sat singles and save the money on duals for a better dedicated system for larger crowds in the future.
 
not worried about the throw for now as I'm not doing mini concerts with 1000 attendees. for all my events the main focus area is just the dance floor and even if there are 700 ppl attending I just want to be able to give the best sound to about 300 or less in the front and I'm usually clear about this with the organizers.
 
Also, I don't have a pic of the woofer. I usually give it back to the guys I bought it from to get it fixed. also I doubt they know what to look at. they just see if it's blown and know how to recone it.
 
Thanks,
Matt


Posted By: IvCu
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by MHayes MHayes wrote:

good to hear PM90 with nd950 are working out for you. what are you using below them?

Yes, as much as i would like to get to get the funktion1s or others in that price range, i just think that for the moment they are not for me. maybe in future. for now i'm mainly looking 4 good tops that can take upto 8 basses and maybe 4 more in a cpl of months.

already got 4 single 15's but i keep blowing the mids on them. 2 are just good enough for 2x 18s. but, not for 4 x 18's. 

but basic idea is to be able to do multiple events at the same time and if required use everything at once, and 12 basses at 1 event is the limit i see my self going to atleast for another year or 2. 

thanks,
matt


I'm using Martin audio 215mk3 and 2x othorns. Even when everything is on full tilt, PM90 still has plenty of headroom 


Posted By: IvCu
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Cyklist Cyklist wrote:

Originally posted by IvCu IvCu wrote:

I'm running pm90 for few months now. 
Since first play and today there is night and day difference, they are just getting better and better. But as said above, measuring and experimenting is a must. I also have RCF ND950 in it Smile

what waveguide and DSP are you using?

I'm using RCF ND950 driver and HF950 horn on Xilica XP 2040.




Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 18 April 2019 at 5:30pm
ahh, always wanted to hear the Othorns. I'm sure I will throw my 18's in the bin once I hear the them... Only thing that will probably stop me from that is the weight.. 95% of the time I'm setting up alone.. and don't want to be even trying to move the othorns alone. not event thinking about a 3-4 man carry on a regular basis (once or twice I think it should be ok).


Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 20 April 2019 at 10:15pm
Let me know if you need any aditional info Matt.
I dont want to make you buy anything you do not really wont, but i feel these would suit your needs you described. I am very familiar with the german DIY scene so had the chance to listen to nearly all Jobst and BS tek (and other...) tops.


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 21 April 2019 at 3:19pm
thanks corell, for now all good. just trying to source the drivers suggested for BS-teks. Just that I couldn't find a way to get comparison of JM-sats with any speaker that I have heard or even then there were no th parameters I could compare them to.
 
also I did go through the posts on german forums and the detailed comparisons from the 2 meet-up. but, the translation is not that great and can be easily misunderstood.
 
Thanks,
Matt
 
 


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 21 April 2019 at 8:22pm
There are two ex-demo units for sale in Germany. If you think they will be ok for you.
https://gebrauchte-veranstaltungstechnik.de/ad-331768-MM-acoustics+Axios+One+2x10-2x1+Horngeladenes+Topteile%2C+Demo+inkl.+Garantie" rel="nofollow - https://gebrauchte-veranstaltungstechnik.de/ad-331768-MM-acoustics+Axios+One+2x10-2x1+Horngeladenes+Topteile%2C+Demo+inkl.+Garantie


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 2:49pm
Marjan, that's really tempting. I am just worried that in the future if I need a second pair, then the new ones are going to be way above budget.
 
Thanks, Matt


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 4:19pm
There are no new one. Its discontinued, but i might be able to source you with a second pair if that "future" is not too far.



-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

There are no new one. Its discontinued, but i might be able to source you with a second pair if that "future" is not too far.



Really? That was quick!


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

There are no new one. Its discontinued, but i might be able to source you with a second pair if that "future" is not too far.



Really? That was quick!

Not really quick. They are rebadged Bold Audio boxes that i had left from the previous company.
There are only 8 of them in the existance. Full BMS inside, 2000W AES.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

There are no new one. Its discontinued, but i might be able to source you with a second pair if that "future" is not too far.



Really? That was quick!


Not really quick. They are rebadged Bold Audio boxes that i had left from the previous company.
There are only 8 of them in the existance. Full BMS inside, 2000W AES.


The Axios One? I thought you only announced that last year and it’s on your website and such.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 9:36pm
Opps, my bad. I mixed up the add.
Gonna find the correct one.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 22 April 2019 at 9:40pm
I was talking about this tops. A double 12 reflex box, but the add is gone, probably sold.
Gonna check.
https://scontent.fskp2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31460926_1614194362012681_8047395701853782016_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fskp2-1.fna&oh=7ad3334fefe39c25923a57912f98970a&oe=5D3C17D2" rel="nofollow - https://scontent.fskp2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/31460926_1614194362012681_8047395701853782016_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fskp2-1.fna&oh=7ad3334fefe39c25923a57912f98970a&oe=5D3C17D2


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: MHayes
Date Posted: 23 April 2019 at 2:35pm

what were they priced at?

Thanks,
Matt


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 23 April 2019 at 8:07pm
At about 1000 euro each if i remember right.

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713



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