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Newly aquired kit

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Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=103852
Printed Date: 04 July 2020 at 12:30pm
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Topic: Newly aquired kit
Posted By: FOO
Subject: Newly aquired kit
Date Posted: 11 June 2019 at 10:51pm
Evening Guys.

Just returned home from a pickup of some used boxes i have bought. 
And amongst them, there was a set of MTH30. Unloaded.
Solid build and in very good condition. 
Are these worth the time and money to load, or should i just use them as trash bins?

And what to load them with today?
The recommended PD is a No-go, so what else is out there? :)
PD, B&C, 18sound, Beyma, Fane and RCF is easy to get. 

Cheers



Replies:
Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 13 June 2019 at 8:39pm
Well, after a little searching around, i found out that the 12SB30 have been suberseded by the PD 123C01, and after a little comparing, those two drivers looks to be exactly the same. Or am i missing something?

Also found some writing on the big interweb, about Beyma 12LX60V2 being quite nice.
But havent found any proof of that, besides that post. 


Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 14 June 2019 at 12:25pm
I think Rich Ind St on here used the Beyma 12LX60 on some boxes some years ago and thought very well of them.
I had some manifold subs of a Beyma design that used the 18LX60.
If you Google "mth30 beyma 12lx60" you'll get some vids and links to a number of threads here where the cab and driver are discussed.

-------------
My laser stuff: http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems" rel="nofollow - Frikkin Lasers


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 14 June 2019 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

I think Rich Ind St on here used the Beyma 12LX60 on some boxes some years ago and thought very well of them.
I had some manifold subs of a Beyma design that used the 18LX60.
If you Google "mth30 beyma 12lx60" you'll get some vids and links to a number of threads here where the cab and driver are discussed.


Hi Norty.

Thats just those threads i am talking about :) 
I would prefer the Beyma 4" coil over the PD 3".
But havent been able to see any sims of the two drivers compared to each other, so a bit hard to tell if the Beyma would be a better choice :)
Anyhow, both the PD 12SB30 and Beyma 12LX60 are very hard to obtain.
Now we got PD 123C01 as a direct replacement and Beyma 12LX60v2.

Have also been looking at more modern drivers, with higher powerhandling, but when comparing prices, i doesnt seem to find any better suggestions than PD 123C01 and Beyma 12LX60v2.
They seem to give the best bang for the buck.

But afaik it was the Beyma 12LX60 he used. 12LX60v2 are not completly the same driver. There are some TS differences.
I am not able to sim anything as i am only running from tablet and phone at this moment.


If its the dual 18 bandpass, magnet-to-magnet design your mean, i know that one also.
Pretty good for such a compact enclosure.

Cheers




Posted By: godathunder
Date Posted: 14 June 2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by norty303 norty303 wrote:

I think Rich Ind St on here used the Beyma 12LX60 on some boxes some years ago and thought very well of them.
I had some manifold subs of a Beyma design that used the 18LX60.
If you Google "mth30 beyma 12lx60" you'll get some vids and links to a number of threads here where the cab and driver are discussed.

iirc him and james were using them in those decware wicked one scalable horn bandpass things that seemed popular for a while. have never knowingly heard that particular combo but the lx series were really good sub drivers although I guess probably superceded now since they are a 20 year old design


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LOUDER THAN LOUD


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 14 June 2019 at 2:34pm
Yes they might be superseded by many drivers. I think it was in 2008 or 2009 the mk2 hit the market.
So only 10 years for the mk.2 :D


Posted By: studio45
Date Posted: 14 June 2019 at 6:44pm
I have a pair of MTH30 and have at various times loaded them with PD 12.SB30, Mackenzie 12-300, Fane Sovereign 12-500LF and Fane Sovereign 12-200. 

I'd like to say there was a vast difference in output between each driver but there really wasn't! 

Those boxes could get bass out of a paper plate I swear down. 

I've also spent some time modelling them and then measuring the real ones, and come to the conclusion that Hornresp doesn't model them well at all. The simmed output is super peaky and looks like crap, but IRL it is much smoother and goes deeper (45Hz solid). The simmed impedance graph is also not very similar to the real one. There are three peaks, but they are not the same height or at the same frequencies as the sim. This is using Marc.O's specified Hornresp inputs.

The 12LX60 is a great driver but not really current any more. Rich had a hell of a time getting recones out of Beyma, I think in the end they sent him the wrong ones THREE times. 


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Studio45 - Box Builder Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 15 June 2019 at 10:39pm
Thank you for some great info there :)

Seems you have done your part of the homework on those MTH30. 
Regarding the Beyma 12lx60, they do still make the v2 of it. And it looks to be quite good still, compared to todays standards. 
But dont know if it sims like the v1. 

Maybe you can help me with some sims of the MTH30 with a couple if different drivers?

Beyma 12LX60 v2
B&C 12NBX100
B&C 12NW100
B&C 12TBX100

Its down to these four drivers. 
I have excluded the PD 123C01, because of the 3" coil.

We got some superb service on Beyma here, so thats not a concern for me :) 


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 3:10pm
Well... I took a long night and tried to learn a bit about hornresp, and with the help of some old input data from the big interweb, i found out how to sim MTH30 in hornresp. I think hahaha :D
And it actually looks like some sims somebody else have made. I compared a sim with PD 12SB30 up against my own sim with the same driver. And they looked identical.
So i guess i am doing something right :)

Been busy today and compared Beyma 12LX60v2 with PD123C01, 18sound 12LW1400, B&C 12TBX100, 12NW100 and 12NBX100.
Beyma, PD and 18sound are really close. 

I have attached some screenshots of my "work".
Grey plot is the Beyma on all of them.
I actually prefer what i see with the Beyma, PD and 18sound. More flat'ish respons, and especially the Beyma got a big advantage around 80hz.
But can't argue against the fact that all the B&C drivers, especially 12NW100 and 12TBX100 do got some grunt at 55hz.
To my untrained eye, these two drivers are identical besides the magnet.

Price differences and weight are not an issue here.

One thing i do not like, is the connections on 12NBX100. I cant stand those, and really dont understand why someone would use those! Ermm

And some sims...


Grey: Beyma 12LX60v2
Black: PD 123C01


Grey: Beyma 12LX60v2
Black: 18sound 12LW1400


Grey: Beyma 12LX60v2
Black: B&C 12NBX100


Grey: Beyma 12LX60v2
Black: B&C 12NW100


Grey: Beyma 12LX60v2
Black: B&C 12TBX100


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 5:11pm

The Beyma 12LX60v2 is the driver the Tham-12 was developed with, and other than the MTH30 having a dB or so extra output the response for the two enclosures looks extremely similar when using this driver.

This is interesting considering the MTH is over 25% larger than the Tham they both have almost exactly the same output.



Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 6:17pm
Dont know how interesting it is, really.
We all know that a bigger box usually means bigger boom :)
More boom doesnt come for free, usually?

Tham 12 and MTH30 isnt what i would call big boxes. 25% isnt that big of a increase when they are this small.
But i catch your drift :)

Anyways, if we look at the degree of carpentry skills needed to do both boxes, i would dare to say MTH30 is quite a bit more newbie friendly. The build difficulty is a bit more advanced on Tham12. 
So we might be talking about a simple case of R&D.

But only my 5 cent :)




Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 6:45pm

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the MTH-30.... both the Tham and the MTH are good proven designs and have very good output considering their small size.




Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 6:52pm
The 12lx60v2 is a brilliant driver, I use a lot of them in our tapped horns, some drivers do have an advantage in certain areas, however are they as physically strong, the beyma is a tank, we have abused the crap out of them and never had a problem with the cone, some will not be as physically strong, i would go with the driver the performs well and has proven itself in lots of tapped horns, just my thoughts.


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by APW APW wrote:

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the MTH-30.... both the Tham and the MTH are good proven designs and have very good output considering their small size.




Not problem.. i follow you :) And agree with you..


Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

The 12lx60v2 is a brilliant driver, I use a lot of them in our tapped horns, some drivers do have an advantage in certain areas, however are they as physically strong, the beyma is a tank, we have abused the crap out of them and never had a problem with the cone, some will not be as physically strong, i would go with the driver the performs well and has proven itself in lots of tapped horns, just my thoughts.


What tapped horns are they? Just curious :)
I know the LX series from the old series. 18LX60 was i beast. And if they have keept to the recipe on the v2 series, maybe improved it, it should take a beating!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 7:41pm
They are our own design, closer to the tham than yours and they give the driver a slightly harder time, we are currently working on a new variant that will go lower at the expense of a bit of spl and we are using the 12lx60v2 again, they really are very good in this situation, there is a driver on Thomann called the box 12 280 8w it's  about €50, a few people have said it's very good in the mth30, I've not simmed it in anything so you should give it a look, you never know Smile


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 16 June 2019 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

They are our own design, closer to the tham than yours and they give the driver a slightly harder time, we are currently working on a new variant that will go lower at the expense of a bit of spl and we are using the 12lx60v2 again, they really are very good in this situation, there is a driver on Thomann called the box 12 280 8w it's  about €50, a few people have said it's very good in the mth30, I've not simmed it in anything so you should give it a look, you never know Smile


I do not like The Box products. You get a great bang-for-the-buck, but it ends there.
Many do praise them, but i dont want to go cheap-ass.. I want the best possible performance :)
Not the best price-to-performance ratio :D

Quality do have a cost.

Sounds interesting. You got any photos? Not that i want to copy anything. Just want see what you got. Large visible magnets are porn haha :D


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 17 June 2019 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by APW APW wrote:

The Beyma 12LX60v2 is the driver the Tham-12 was developed with, and other than the MTH30 having a dB or so extra output the response for the two enclosures looks extremely similar when using this driver.

This is interesting considering the MTH is over 25% larger than the Tham they both have almost exactly the same output.


Think about how speaker efficiency increases when you go from a single to a double cab with the same driver - you'd expect 3dB more output for that increase, right.

Now work out how many consecutive increases of 25% it takes to equal a doubling.

What that adds up to is that one extra dB of efficiency for a 25% bigger cab is exactly what we'd expect, all else being equal. Wink


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 17 June 2019 at 4:23pm
The extra dB is not what I found interesting, both the MTH and Tham are tapped horns and about 100ish dB/watt is what I’d expect a typical small/compact TH to produce, The Tham 15 is almost twice the size of its little brother and still only produces about 100dB/watt.

What I was expecting is due to the increased volume of the MTH was for the F3 to be slightly lower than the Tham 12 as I expected it to have a longer horn path… this isn’t what the sims sugest, the f3 is almost exactly the same.

I haven’t worked out the lengths of the horn yet on these two cabinets so cannot say for sure, but I’d imagen the horn length to be similar.




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