Running turbosound tms2's with bss analogue kit
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=104830
Printed Date: 23 April 2024 at 6:10pm
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Topic: Running turbosound tms2's with bss analogue kit
Posted By: Trig
Subject: Running turbosound tms2's with bss analogue kit
Date Posted: 11 February 2020 at 8:51pm
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We've decided to run our tms2 rig using old analogue bss kit. We have some fds 360 crossovers, and an fcs 960 graphic equaliser. After having some issues with the crossovers when we initially tested them I've realised that there is quite a lot to learn about running them like this, so I'm interested in any advice people have. Also considering getting new amps to run them off as well. We have always used ecler pam series in the past, but they are old heavy and have started failing. I know they were used with c-audio originally, also qsc and mc2.....again, interested in any advice or opinions people have. |
Replies:
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 12:05am
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One thing to getyour head around is fds360 run with pin3 hot on the xlr input. Tms2's as std ? run the fds 2 x 2 way with 250hz card in the fds ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 10:55am
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4D wrote:Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 1:16pm
| NO DON'T RUN THEM LIKE THAT---Just run all of your 15" bass drivers up to 250hz as the bass section in a TMS2 is identical to half a TSE215 bass cabinet so you will gain nothing at all from splitting xover frequencies--in fact it will be just the opposite and you will lose out on volume and performance. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 1:30pm
They aren't identical, the tse215s play down to 40 but the tms roll off sharply after 60, and the tse don't sound nice at all playing higher than 150. We have 6 tse under 4 tms2s, running all those 15's up to 250 would give way too much mid bass. Using a digital crossover I used to run the tms 15s down to 90 and that used to give a nice balance. Not sure how they will sound running down just to 125 though, thinking that might be a bit high to cut them
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 2:05pm
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The TSE215s may play down to 40hz as you are getting the coupling effect of the two 15" drivers in the same horn cavity but as I said above, if you cut a TSE215 in half then you would be left with two bass sections of a TMS2 and also all of your cabinets contain the same 15" drivers so there is absolutely no point in splitting bass two way with identical drivers and the same horn loading. I know all of the old Turbosound designs from many years of personal experience working with them and what you are attempting to do is pointless---Just as a matter of interest, what subs are you using below all of your 15" bass section as it seems that you are attempting to force the TSE215s into reproducing sub bass which they will never achieve. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 3:55pm
| The ones turbo built might be identical but the copies we have are slightly deeper than the tms. They have different drivers in as well. Six tse215 in a pile play pretty low, never measured them but we don't use any subs under them. Always been happy with them, we don't play much music that needs loads of deep sub anyway, no dub or reggae just a bit of jungle and old breakbeat hardcore, we mostly play techno |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 4:07pm
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are they definitely tse215 copies? if they look like http://hornplans.free.fr/turbo_bph238.html" rel="nofollow - these then they're copies of older boxes, tb215. and a bit different to the tms2 bass section. but robbo's advice stands.. i wouldn't expect them to play down to 40hz. and yes they won't sound nice above 150. i have 6 of these boxes for well over 10 years now.. i'd definitely recommend subs under them. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 4:13pm
| Could be, I'll have to get the tape measure out when I get home. I'd love to add a load of dedicated subs under them but I don't have the finances or the space, and as we will likely only use them a few times a year for little parties (most of us are in our 40's now and don't have the time or energy to get the rig out every weekend!) it's not really an option. Not sure about exact frequency range but they definitely play lower than the tms can |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 12 February 2020 at 8:38pm
What subs do you run under them ?
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Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 12:04am
| X1s |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 11:53am
Heretic... :) back to the 15" @250hz the trick is not to overdrive the box too much power and the honk honk honk gets exaggerated
------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 12:38pm
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floodlight, single turbo 15, and 2 x1s here. have found that reverse loading the drivers and adding bracing has helped reduce honk noises from the 15s. happy up to 180 now. have 6 x1s, 4 double turbos and 4 singles, and have done all various combinations of them, depending on music or ceiling height and stuff. i like the setup pictured. 
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Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 12:44pm
When I bought them they had 500 watt drivers in, meaning each box would need 2k, which is as you say too much power for them, and made them sound honky. They now have 300 watt drivers which is closer to the original spec. 1.2k a box now and they don't have that issue. I will definitely try running them all up to 250hz as robbo recommends and see how it compares to how I usually run them. Still interested in amp suggestions for the tms and any other tips for getting the best out of them using the bss analogue gear.
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Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 12:58pm
Looks like a very nice rig you have there.....the venue looks nice as well
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 1:43pm
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That is a very nice well balanced rig there and should imagine that it sounds very nice. If it is any help Trig we used to run G subs below our TMS and TSE cabinets laying the G subs flat on their sides with the other cabinets stacked on top and this really worked well with the G subs wired in reverse phase to line up with the horn loading of the TMS and TSE boxes. We also used digital Xovers so that we could overlap the frequencies sent to the different types of cabinets---The G subs were run from 40 Hz up to 120 Hz and the TMS and TSE boxes run from 70Hz up to 250 Hz(standard Turbo Xover point)---We spent many hours with our combination of cabinets trying and experimenting with time alignment and Xover points and we settled on this set up as we found it great if a little weird but it really does work. We also experimented a fair bit with running TMS4s and TMS2s three way active but found the difference to be that minimal that it was not worth carting extra amps around the country to run them three way. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 1:59pm
What amps were you using to run your tms2s? Have thought about trying them 3 way as have read on here that they sound a lot better but they do sound very nice using the internal crossover, so it is interesting to hear you didn't think it worth the extra amps and cables. Do you need delays when running the g subs? Or does running them out of phase do that job? As that's not an option with the current kit we have
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 2:26pm
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We started off using Rauch DVT250 Mosfet amps on our blue boxes then used C Audio for a few years then Powersoft Digams which were the best sound quality wise and also better for 50 year olds with bad backs. We used short adaptor leads that we made purely for reversing the phase on the G subs as they worked out spot on being 180 degrees out of phase. There have been a few people on here advising running TMS full range cabinets in three way mode but the gain in sound quality really is minimal and just not worth it. One thing that we did do which improved the HF a lot was to standardise all of our HF drivers to 16 ohm B+C DE250 as we ended up with a fair old mix of different HF drivers after running Turbosound for a few years as the boxes are so loud and efficient that it is very easy to get carried away with the volume at times and pop HF diaphragms. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 3:06pm
How many g subs would you use with 6 tse and 4 tms2
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 4:02pm
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Per side, I would use one G sub laid flat with two TSE215s on top, side by side but one of them upside down so you will get the horn coupling from them and then a TMS2 on top of each TSE215 to give a nice looking uniform stack. This would mean dropping off one pair of TSE215s from your system but this would give you a better balanced rig anyway. |
Posted By: Trig
Date Posted: 13 February 2020 at 8:06pm
It's something to think about for the future.....for now though I just need to start using the rig we have again before the Mrs starts making noises about selling it
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