Breaking in drivers
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Category: General
Forum Name: General Forum
Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105029
Printed Date: 24 April 2024 at 12:13pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Breaking in drivers
Posted By: oren
Subject: Breaking in drivers
Date Posted: 26 March 2020 at 9:16pm
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Getting a new 18 driver tommorow, how should i break it in ? It was a spare someone's had for years and havent used , if its old will it need special attention ? Is it nessesary to break it in beforehand? Its going inside a horn so i dont want to strain it first use . Cheers guy hope everyone is well and good
------------- Music is nice.. |
Replies:
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 26 March 2020 at 11:13pm
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If it is an old driver that was being used prior to being put to the side, chances are it is already broken in. Checking how flexible (how easily) the cone moves is a good indication if the driver is broken in or not. If the driver is not broken in, whacking your loudspeaker for 30 minutes playing your favourite tracks will do the job. If you are more adventurous, you could dump 8 Hz (or lower) into the loudspeaker and give it enough power to attain a good amount of cone movement. However, you will need monitor the loudspeaker periodically for you run a high risk of burning up the voice coil. The second option will have the loudspeaker broken in (or burned up) within 3 minutes. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 10:16am
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Thanks elliot , should i mount the driver into the cab prior or do it in free air?
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 11:05am
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Personally I'd just stick it in the box and be sensible to start with. Can't see commercial manufacturers having rooms full of drivers they're breaking in. Anyone got any objective proof its worth doing anything more than than what I've suggested above? Edit: clarity
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Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 11:27am
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I thought breaking them in was only really relevant if you are designing and need the TS to be close to a driver at a broken in stage for ideal measurements. Or you’ve got a massive sound clash going on with brand new drivers and are going to spank them from the get go. As with buying a new car or get a recon engine, you just don’t give it loads of welly for a short time. ------------- blah blah blah blah blah...... |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 11:43am
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I have been in this business since 1971 and must have loaded thousands of drivers in that time and have never run or broken one in. Brand new drivers straight out of their cardboard boxes loaded into cabinets and out on tour straight away with some of the loudest bands on the planet but used properly with good limiters to avoid idiots blowing them---I bet I could count on two hands the quantity of drivers that have been blown since then SO NO YOU DO NOT NEED TO BREAK THEM IN !!!!!!! |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 12:30pm
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In my experience brand new drivers do need a little running to achieve their intended performance. You'll see notes on driver datasheets that the TS parameters were measured after a 'preconditioning' period. The sensitivity etc will improve after they've been run at a reasonable level for a bit. However, as mentioned above, there is no requirement to do any special procedures. Just use the drivers in the cabs and the 'breaking in' will happen as part of normal usage.
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Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 12:53pm
Pushing the cone up and down to see how flexible it is will tell you nothing unless you have a brand new one to compare it to, putting 8hz through a driver that may well have been used hard previously could be a disaster for an old voice coil, put it in the box and let it play, simple. |
Elliot Thompson wrote:Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 1:16pm
The driver will loosen up in Free Air faster as it has no restrictions sitting in a box, whereas it will take longer sitting in a box. So you have a choice on what is more convenient for you. Play some of your most popular bass tunes through your box at high SPL for around 30 minutes and enjoy or, feed the driver a sine wave signal for around 3 minutes or so. There is really no right or wrong way to break in a driver, it is more about how much free time you have at your disposal. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 1:25pm
Breaking in a loudspeaker loosens up the suspension which, reduces the fs. It is not unusual to have a well loosened woofer shift 10 Hz downwards when comparing to it's published specifications at times. Some manufactures take the shift into consideration when advertising their TS Parameters whereas, others do not. Once the suspension is loose, it cannot revert back unless you recone the loudspeaker. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 1:47pm
It is very rare to find an old used driver that has not been thoroughly broken in. The driver could sit on the shelf for decades and it will not revert back to it's brand new in a box form. How much experience one has with new versus used old drivers will play a factor. Gauging the suspension's flexibility by merely pushing on the cone would not be difficult to decipher for the experienced user. Bear in mind not everyone wants to go through the process of blasting the loudspeaker until it is broken in. This is where feeding a sine wave signal to the loudspeaker comes into play. It offers the same results with the least amount of noise and a faster turn around time. Once you go below 10 Hz, the loudspeaker offers very little sound. The Loudspeaker will however offer enough piston movement to loosen up the suspension. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 2:00pm
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It can make quite a big difference with some drivers, with some drivers the difference is small. I measures TS parameters during brake in when i was testing some drivers the other week. I used a 20Hz sine wave, 9dB crest factor, driven until about +/-8mm excursion. As you can see FS reduces to a point then stabilises. 18DS115 New FS= 48.45Hz 30 min run in 10 min cool down fs=45.76Hz 1h run in 10 min cool down FS=45.09Hz 1.5h run in 10 min cool down FS=43.07Hz 2H run in 10 min cool down fs=43.07Hz 18XL2000 New FS= 33.65 30 min run in 1-0 min cool down fs=31.63 1h run in 10 min cool down FS=31.63Hz ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 27 March 2020 at 9:44pm
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I don't think anyone's saying they don't change, and the numbers make interesting reading.
Does it make difference doing it in free air vs in box other than time frame?
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Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 8:10am
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Ive never tried running in drivers in a cabinet, it would make a lot of noise and take more power to reach xmax. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 8:37am
^ This. "Breaking in" drivers is complete nonsense. All you are doing is shortening the life expectancy of said driver. Breaking-in is one of the more stupid ideas circulatiing in the insane world of the hifi nutter, where almost everything from a mains fuse to a turntable needs, in their minds,"breaking in".  ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 9:48am
^ This. Both of them. Most TS parameters have a tolerance anyway, some as much as ±20%. Also temperature, humidity etc etc have an effect on wht's measured. ------------- Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards. E=mc² ±3dB |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 10:03am
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Only thing i would advise with brand new drivers, allways stick an ohm meter on them before putting them in a cabinet...a few years back,a pair of new P Audio 18inch drivers straight out the box,one meaured 9 ohms,the other 5. So much for quality control!..Of course one was much louder than the other. ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 10:40am
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When loading a brand new driver into a cabinet also check the phasing with a PP3 9v battery as sometimes they can be out of phase from new and also double check any driver that has been re-coned as I have seen a lot of these out of phase over the years. I do tend to agree with Timebomb that new drivers are very slightly lower in volume when new---We once doubled the size of one of our touring rigs back in the eighties with new drivers inside new cabinets and on the first gig, all of the newer cabinets were stacked on one side of the PA in the venue as they were first out of the truck. When the rig was run up to a usable volume with our normal mono test tracks you could actually hear that the bass was slightly down on that one side and the two mid sections on that side were also very slightly down---HF was fine and this was easily adjusted by increasing bass and mid sends on the FOH Xover by a notch or two from our usual settings---Most people would not have even noticed the difference in a gig situation. The following night the Xover settings were returned to normal and everything was fine from then onwards. |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 11:41am
Same here, thousands of drivers in the last 40 years or so and never ever ran one in. What's the point ? Using them for a few hours in their first outing does just that. It's not that they will perform any better or longer after a "break-in". I get asked often whether speakers need to be broken in, usually followed by the expression : "like car engines ? ". My answer is always : Speakers are not car engines, totally different mechanics going on there. For second hand speakers, new old stock, reconed, ex demo or whatever the story that goes with them, I suggest to check impedance and phase, check for voicecoil rubbing, cone deformation, if the cone can move back and forth the same amount (and without any noises), things like that. New in the box, some speaker suspensions sag hard after barely a few years on the shelve and others don't move a hair after decades, no matter the climate conditions they were in. So don't worry about breaking in ( it's nonsense ), but DO check the basics. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 4:30pm
Breaking in the drivers in the box is like breaking in a brand new pair of shoes. If you and I wore the same shoe size, the shape of our foot would differ if we swapped a pair of broken in shoes in terms of comfort. So the end result would not be the same on the overall shape of the shoe. Bear in mind if you are not playing a significant amount of 30 Hz and below, you may not hear huge difference in the sound if the majority of the bass propagating is 40 Hz. On the flip side, if you are into a lot of punchy (80 Hz) bass, a broken in driver will not sound as fast (highly dynamic) once broken in as it increases the lag time. So, the results are debatable if breaking in a loudspeaker is a good or bad thing pending on your musical taste. One thing is certain, all loudspeaker's suspension will loosen up within time. The most simplest way to get an idea on the difference in sound is comparing a woofer with a 0.2 Qts versus a woofer with a Qts of 0.3 A 0.2 Qts broken in woofer will never achieve the sound of a broken in woofer of a Qts of 0.3 However, it may achieve the sound of a brand new in the box woofer offering a Qts of 0.3 Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 4:54pm
Except that by breaking a driver in you're not changing either BL or Mms which have by far the biggest effect on the frequency response, you're changing Cms which has far less effect in most enclosures (sometimes almost none). Qts (or Qes) is a derived parameter which depends on all three factors, Fs is derived and depends only on Mms and Cms. If you don't believe me take a typical driver in any simulator and change just Cms by +/-20% while keeping BL and Mms the same (Q and Fs will change) and resimulate. Now try the same but changing just BL (affects response everywhere) or Mms (affects response in mass-controlled region), the effect on response is *way* bigger.
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Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 5:09pm
What is changing is the fs. Any of the three (VAS, fs, Qts) that creates a change will alter the sound. The VAS, fs, and, Qts are the primary figures. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 6:12pm
Nope, the four fundamental physical parameters which actually vary are BL/sqrt(Re) (driving force), Mms (moving mass), Cms (suspension stiffness), and Sd (diaphragm area) -- all the others like Fs and Vas and Qes may be useful for speaker design (which is why manufacturers specify them) but they are derived from the basic four. For example if Cms changes then Vas and Qes and Fs change, but if BL and Mms and Sd are unchanged there will be little change in the speaker response, the efficiency is unchanged because this only depends on BL, MMs, and Sd. If BL or Mms changes then the efficiency changes, this has a big effect. Most box designs (reflex, bandpass, horn) are pretty insensitive to compliance changes but very sensitive to mass or BL changes -- which is a good thing because it's easy to produce speakers with well-defined BL/Mms/Sd but much harder to get consistent (and stable over time and temperature) compliance. Go and try a speaker simulator that lets you alter the fundamental properties and calculates the derived ones if you don't believe me... ;-)
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Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 6:29pm
| Funny isn't it Elliot, we as in this forum lost a very valid member (kyle) recently, Why? because he was fed up with your constant rubbish, you have never shown one photo of anything you have built, not one, yet you spout the most complete drivel, every time you post your crap you get shot down because you are just plain having sex wrong, this thread is perfect because everything you have said has been shot down yet people still follow your advice, many here are older and wiser than me, but I have been doing this sinse 1979 and I know for a fact you talk utter shite, so from another sound man it's good bye forum. |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 28 March 2020 at 6:40pm
And before I go I sold GAZ some amplifiers over the last few days, just want to say what a top guy to deal with 
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Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 10:58am
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Okay so im not sure what to make of the debate at the end of all that , should i just assume tat becae te driver has bee sat in the shed as a sparde wich may have seen very little to no use that i should test it on a low volume to see if it functions okay and if breaking in is real? Also i am not a speaker engineer but i have come across many of elliots posts in the forum in the past and have found them very helpfull , i cannot intervene when it comes to some of the more scientific debates so i dontf know on that end but hey at the end of the day i feel so lucky this forum is here .
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 12:26pm
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Okay, ask yourself this... Why am I breaking in the driver? If its to get it nearer to the correct TS for testing then go ahead. If it's to check that it works and is in good condition then just play a sine sweep starting low level and listening for distortion/rubbing. If its because you want the system to sound perfect (driver having correct TS for cabs) from the get go then just play some music through it before your first gig. If it is because you think it will sound better having been run in then this will be done (if it is a thing) within half an hour of using it on a gig. If you think it will be damaged by not "breaking it in" then this is nonsense. If you are still in anyway worried, set you limiters well, have good gain structure and don't spank it for the first half hour. Job done. Anxiety over. Basically, stick it in a cab, play some music and enjoy....
------------- blah blah blah blah blah...... |
Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 1:02pm
More than worrying about "breaking in", if the driver has been sat somewhere - maybe damp - for any length of time, check that the suspension is good, ie that the cone moves equally out & in. If not, that will definitely effect how it sounds.  ------------- Earplugs Are For Wimps! |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 1:21pm
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Yeah i just wanted to check that it worked mainly and that since its been sat around for a while i wanted to give it time to stretch as it where . What would be a good way to check the suspension? Just check by ear? I was also going to air it out before use.
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 3:23pm
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Sit it with the cone facing up, and look at how level the spider is, is should not be sunken, should be flat. If it its sunken then its worn. Regarding breaking in drivers, it can be useful if you have a brand new driver and want it to sound how it will sound in real world use, brand new drivers can sound a little harder and tighter and more aggressive straight out of the box, breaking in a driver can be useful in some situations despite what several misguided old men might tell you. Unfortunately there are several on this forum who think that because they have been into sound for many years that they know it all, and refuse to consider or learn anymore...It really is ruining the forum... This topic has come up before, i explained reasons to one forum member who was adamant it was pointless, but he did eventually listen and understand, but he seems hes reverted back to an "ive been doing sound for years and i never broke in a driver, so its pointless" kind of attitude... Its a shame some people dont want to learn, and just want to pretend they know it all already... ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 5:25pm
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Oh dear!  ------------- Earplugs Are For Wimps! |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 6:14pm
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If you consider that every major pro audio loudspeaker manufacturer in the world does not break in their cabinets or speakers in any way shape or form then I think this answers the question---in fact most of the big name cabinets are not even plugged in and tested in the factory as most are subjected to a batch testing production method. So as a misguided old man who has been involved in the industry for nearly fifty very successful years, I obviously now know nothing about the modern use of cabinets and components. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 8:44pm
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Just because manufacturers dont break in the drivers in cabinets they ship does not mean they never break in drivers to test how they sound once broken in. There is a world beyond your personal experience Robbo, i know you dont want to see it but there is quite a lot to loudspeaker development that you clearly dont understand, just because you have not personally experienced something does not mean it cant exist, you dont know it all. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 8:47pm
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Here you go quick example: "Small signal parameters measured after unit subjected to pre-conditioning signal." https://celestion.com/product/69/ntr153018e/" rel="nofollow - https://celestion.com/product/69/ntr153018e/ You will find most driver manufacturers do the same. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 8:59pm
That's item #5 on their notes at the bottom of the spec. Even better than that is #1: "Tested for two hours using a continuous, band-limited pink noise signal
as per AES standard. Power calculated on minimum impedance. Loudspeaker
tested in free air. " Two hours of pink noise is more than enough to 'run in' a speaker. ------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 10:06pm
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The guy isnt talking about breaking in a driver for measuring or testing purposes, and i dont think Robbo was either.
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 29 March 2020 at 11:15pm
I do not profess to know everything on the planet regarding pro audio and you know nothing at all about my personal experience within the industry either. Just for the record, I was involved with Peter Ross and Chris Sherwin in helping develop the famous Mega range of PA cabinets alongside David Lyth from Volt Loudspeakers. I was also involved with Peter Keeling in getting the ACES range of PA and Studio gear off the ground in the seventies and you may have also seen the Soundpower range of 19" rack equipment that I also developed. I am on this forum in order to help and advise other members especially the younger inexperienced ones within the knowledge that I have and not to promote and sell my own range of PA cabinets and cheap re-badged Chinese products. It is a shame that you do not stick to selling your bits and pieces on Ebay instead of splitting hairs and creating argument on this forum when there is no real need for it. |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:37am
Hmmm, you don't really get it do you?? Breaking (used to be wearing in back in the day) is absolutely the same whether you're measuring or listening. Back in the very early 70s when I had a few occasions for Mike Cotter to recone my Gauss 4583B's (normal 4583's but with an alumium voice coil as requested by Pink Floyd), he always left them running on their backs on the bench for about 20 mins connected to a step-down mains transformer. He told me that it they would sound better for it, and that any faults would show up. ------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 1:12am
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I may have delved deep into a controversial topic it seems . Somed posts mentioned new drivers sound hard and punchy , do they all slow down and get more flappy over time ? Obviously the type of box and driver makes the biggest difference, im just curious if drivers still deteriorate ovesr time if used sensibly, are peoples older speakers still good ? Ived heard a few id s ay ,just curious . Hope all members are good and well , Ireland has just gone into lockdown
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 2:57am
More a thing of being a little stiff when new, and getting into their stride after a little "warming-up" (much like athletes, I suppose). ------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 9:05am
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An interesting take on this......a while back,i was speaking to someone who worked in quality control at the JBL plant in Northridge back in the day, their K110 ten-inch alnico driver was made to very fine tolerances, he said that 75% of all the production of that model failed to meet the design specs during testing,and were sent back to be re-coned. So if you did actually buy one,it was perfect,and would sound exactly as intended. I contrast that to my experience of chinese drivers,where almost every one i have ever tried has some issue, so yes,breaking in drivers for an few hours would be recommended with Chinese products, to see if it actually meets the spec,and can survive its first outing in the real world. ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 9:48am
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"Mike Cotter to recone my Gauss 4583B's (normal 4583's but with an alumium voice coil as requested by Pink Floyd), he always left them running on their backs on the bench for about 20 mins connected to a step-down mains transformer." Now there´s a name from the past. Amazing guy, Mike. I loved his "Aladdin´s cave" of goodies. Sad loss when he died.  But - the point there, I reckon, is that it doesn´t take long for the speaker to "run in" - just 20 - 40 mins of signal or muzak and you´re away. No need for any special procedure, or "snake oil"! " im just curious if drivers still deteriorate ovesr time if used sensibly, are peoples older speakers still good ?" Any decent speaker should last for years. They should definitely not get "flappy"! Like it´s been said before - check the spider. ------------- Earplugs Are For Wimps! |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 10:29am
We are looking at things from a different perspective as you are using a simulator as reference whereas, I am using the procedure on how to measure TS Parameters of a driver. When you measure the driver to determine the TS Parameters you perform two tests. The first procedure is measuring the impedance curve. You measure the resistance of the loudspeaker using a multi meter. This will give you the following: fs Le L2 R2 Qts Qes QMS The second procedure is measuring the VAS. Adding some means of pressure on the cone which will shift the fs downwards. Upon completion, this will give you the following: Mms Rms Cms Vas Sd Bl ETA Lp When you are using a simulator, it will automatically recalculate the figures you alter pertaining to the modified figure so everything adds up properly. When measuring the TS Parameters, the figures will not keep changing the more pressure you add on to the cone. The fs can only shift to a certain amount and that's it. If there is not enough, pressure added to the cone when conducting the measurements, you will not get the VAS in addition to the other figures I posted in the list. This is because the fs did not shift far enough to offer the proper calculation to attain the end result. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 10:34am
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Its different with different drivers, some stabilise in half an hour some take much longer, some are pretty close straight out of the box, i had one high power 12" bass driver that took all day and still didn't end up anywhere close to the specified FS, in my experience it seems to be drivers with very low CMS that take more time to stabilise. No snake oil, only reason i use a low frequency sine wave is because it makes less noise, and it give me a constant so i can compare run in times for different drivers, its no voodoo nonsense like russ andrews, its just running in the suspension, im sure playing music will do the same job if you give it enough juice to get the cone moving. Not splitting hairs robbo, there were several people claiming there was no point running in, i pointed out that it can make a difference. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 10:36am
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Yeah, Mike Cotter was a real legend and a genuine nice bloke but I think that we should get one thing straight here concerning re-cones----All of the decent re-cone people will always run a driver on the test bench with signals through it in order to ensure that they have done their job correctly without any problems showing up as they never know the history of what has happened to the driver in question especially when a voice coil burnout has occurred. This can very often lead to a lot of crap being left in the voice coil gap which can be extremely difficult to remove at times--we used to re-cone quite a few ATC drivers back in the day and they had the narrowest gap in any driver that I have ever seen and they were a bit of a bugger to get right. Mike used to recone a hell of a lot of Gauss 31 and 42 series 15" drivers for us as Slades massive PA used all of this model driver in bass bins and low mid cabinets driven by Crown DC300A amps which as everyone knows have a tendency to go DC on the outputs and fry every driver connected to them and Mike always used to leave the previous reconed driver running with a test signal while he was working on the next recone in line. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 10:49am
I don't recall ever holding a gun to anyone's head and saying get of off Speaker plans. If someone's chooses to leave Speaker plans that is their choice and must take full responsibility for their actions. That's what Men do. If a person chooses to get upset having a civil discussion and start cursing and using derogatory statements because they do not agree with another person's comments, it means they need to take a break from the forum. We are all adults here. As Sound men we all have our own real world experience pertaining audio equipment in the field. We share our experience on helping others in need of help. There will be times when we may not agree on things. However, it does not mean we should have a temper tantrum. That is just childish. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 11:06am
| While you are on line Elliot could you please enlighten all of us on here of your practical experience in the Pro Audio industry as you class yourself as a soundman but we have never seen anything from you that verifies this fact---You do at times like to comment on certain areas that it is clear to the rest of us you have no experience in this field so I thought that it would be great if you could tell us of your experience to date. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 11:38am
It is going to brief for I am in the heart of the Coronavirus epidemic at the moment and everyday the Goverment is changing something here in New York.
I have been in the sound business (being paid) since 1982.
From 1982 - 1998 House Parties, Basement Parties, Dance Clubs, Block Parties, Sound Clashes, West Indian Day Parade
From 1998 - 2014 West Indian Day Parade, Block Parties Small
Bands, Weddings, Corporate (Government
Museums, Fire Department)
events.
From 2014 - 2019 Corporate Events, Weddings
From 2020 - Locked Down, Corporate Events, Weddings. 99% of my clients are Women, and get dates based on word of mouth. Best Regards,
------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:02pm
| So you were born in 1980(ref members profile) and you list above that you had paid work in this business from 1982---That makes you a two year old getting paid work in New York---I am truly amazed!!!!! |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:20pm
I am GenerationX (1970). I must of made an error in my profile. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:23pm
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So you had your first job when you were 12? Gosh,im very impressed, at age 12 i was washing cars for pocket money.
------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:31pm
My best friends birthday party We borrowed an upstairs neighbour stereo and played in the basement in a private house. I got 20.00 for playing. That was a lot of money for a 12 year old in the 1980s. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:44pm
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Regarding the breaking in. What do you see when when you break them in for let's say 1 hour. Then let it rest for a day, then again measure parameters. If TS parameters are back at when bought new, i would say breaking them in is pretty useless for normal use.
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Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:54pm
And you were a paid sound man from the age of twelve
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 12:57pm
This was what I was going to write, so +1! ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 9:50pm
No mate, I'm struggling to understand it I get its the same measuring or listening. Im not understanding if breaking in in free air with whatever signal has a different and more positive effect than doing it in cab with music. I appreciate there is a likely time difference to get to the same worn in ts parameters but is it measurably better done one way than the other?
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Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 11:51pm
Simple answer is no. It's to do with the suspension, which in it's fresh-manufactured form will have a certain stiffness. Some few low-frequency minutes will be enough to bring it to a state in where it will remian substantially the same fora long period. But bear in mind that taking speaker from a freezing cold van in the middle of winter, or from a baking hot van in the middle of a heatwave will have the same sort (not the same, just the same sort) of effect on performance.
It's my opinion that there would be no difference. Completely different track, but this reminds me of a tale told to me by Ian Tadd (haven't seen him around for a long while) about the Hill PA at Donnington which got caught in a flash storm - and the bass speakers dies an en masse death having all front facing cones; which resulted in much overnight reconing of 12" ATC's. Blue Oyster Cult were the first band on on the next day, and their engineer was given strict instructions that the volume was to kept reduced to give the adhesives a decent chance to dry. As soon as they came on he took the faders to the max and half the bass section was wiped out, again. edited for spelling
------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 30 March 2020 at 11:57pm
So, this isn't you then ??? ------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 12:16am
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Look what you have caused oren ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 1:17am
Yeah everyone seems a bit tense ey ? I thought it was a simple thing but turns out ive delved a bit deep . Aside from this ive been trying to study ts parameters and how they relate to box desgign and i noticed that the pd 186 is totaly not what seems to be suitable for horn loadin, maybe a br or th ? Am i missing something? Im tryingl to learn more about sound now that im off work but there seems to be so much conflicting information . My driver in question is arriving tommorow, gonna be rocking in the quarantine 
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 1:44am
Enjoy it. It's all about the bass, innit ??? ------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 10:10am
Yes!
Don't hate my first paid gig was 12 years old.  It was not unusual to earn money at an early age in the 1980's. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 10:13am
Not I. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 10:24am
Sound is subjective. So you will always get various answers based on user experience. Have you downloaded REW? It will allow you to measure the TS Parameters of a driver in addition to measuring the frequency response of your finished design. https://www.roomeqwizard.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ You can also read this to get a basic understanding of TS Parameters and where the PD 186 driver stands https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq1" rel="nofollow - https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq1 Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Wikl109
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 11:04am
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An interesting thread here. Here's my take on it: A lot of the major driver manufacturers have video's showing their finished products being tested to make sure the T/S parameters are to spec. I'd assume the ones that don't pass are scrapped/re-coned. These tests are often quite rigorous sessions with tones that really get the cones moving. So essentially a driver has had a small amount of 'breaking in' done as part of it's manufacture/testing. Drivers that are designed to have a low Fs are generally very stiff when new and you'll struggle to move them by hand with out puncturing the cone. They do always loosen up with age so the sound must change. So i'd say a driver comes partially 'broken in' from new and the sound will change over time. It probably varies with different drivers as to how much so there is really no universal answer to this. BTW guys really sad to see people falling out over differences of opinion on a forum used for discussion. It kind of defeats the object really especially when we're all interested in the same subjects. ------------- Cheers, Chris. |
Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 12:30pm
When science and concepts that are globally accepted in the audio community get debated as opinions, and put against arguments made of limited "soundman experience" supported by some random technical blurbs, it already defeats the objects of the forum, wich should be sharing and developing knowledge as far as i am concerned, not fighting it with middle age attitude, like often Elliot seems to do, with a language that sounds dangerously knowledgeable to the newbys. As stated we already lost Kyle round here, who was providing an unvaluable insight from a pro audio outlet and sharing load of technical aspects about how it is done in 2020 (and not "how ye ole soundmen used to do it back in the days") , tired of this attitude. I am relatively new around here, and not a loud person, so I was hesitant to post this, call names or to get lost in flamy debates, but i really feel sorry for this as i see the level and interest going down. This is indeed the place for roots sounds and classic sound systems, but not exclusively, there is also people interested in running o designing sounds with modern concepts and understanding and discussing the advancements of the craft, and this kind of attitude is pushing those people away. We did ban Efinque recently, but I doubt he did as much harm to the forum with his posts. about the thread matter, Klippel suggests there is a measurable fs shift. |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 2:08pm
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Toastyghost is kyle im guessing? P&L people, tis wat music is about.
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 2:24pm
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Stay safe and avoid the miasma.. ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 6:17pm
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Got to admit , yes was easy to earn money at a very young age, some of us wasnt fortunate to have a mother and farther, so you had to do wat you had to do, i was working at a very young age in the 80s, agreed with elliot... ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 7:10pm
This is exactly what i had assumed. I guess it depends if you're happy to wait for them to break in in cab or need them pre done. Testing etc or just want them ready to sound as they will broken in from minute 1. I know my subs sounded different at the end of the night compared to the start of the night the first time I used them as they were loaded with drivers straight out of the box. I'd assumed this breaking in was the same as it would have been if I'd done it in free air but never found anyone with any kind of proof, hence my first post in the thread. Not sure why it got so heated. Seems a fairly simple question if someone had data!
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Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 9:34pm
Your third paragraph is something different; that's almost certainly thermal compression. As the gig progresses the voice coils heat up and their electrical resistance (reactance in the case of a coil) increases as the temperature rises (and since they're coils that resistance will vary with frequency) ; as the coil temperature rises their output will reduce and as a consequence volumes will be turned up and it becaomes a vicious circle - it's like Ourobos the snake that eats its' own tail.
------------- It's a difficult choice, would you rather have: A: A vegan son. B: An OnlyFans daughter |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 31 March 2020 at 10:04pm
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They weren't in any way stressed so that's not very likely. Surely that's exactly what you'd expect? Or are you saying you would expect the drivers breaking in to be imperceptible? Heated comment was about this thread... Not the speakers!
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Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 01 April 2020 at 7:54am
Funny how you have made the same error in your profile on four other forums.
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Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 01 April 2020 at 8:21am
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https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?members/elliot-thompson.332/" rel="nofollow - https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?members/elliot-thompson.332/
http://www.wavemusic.com/community/member.php?u=2294" rel="nofollow - http://www.wavemusic.com/community/member.php?u=2294 Time to cut the bullshit Elliot.
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