Ultimate kick bin?
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Forum
Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105180
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 6:57am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ultimate kick bin?
Posted By: RealitySound
Subject: Ultimate kick bin?
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 3:44am
|
Do we know what the ultimate driver/design combo is yet? As time goes by with the advancement of drivers and cabinet design surely something must stand out overall? 15's vs 18's vs 21's (too slow)? Short horns vs BPH vs ported horns vs tuned reflex vs tapped horn? HD15 vs USB vs ES18 vs Cubo Kick vs Paraflex? Anyone have any experience or opinions after hearing several designs? Thanks in advance.....                ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Replies:
Posted By: fat_brstd
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 5:07am
|
The coffin bin. Basically the best in terms of sound would be a long straight horn that loads down to around 60hz and takes a high efficiency, small voice coil 15" that would have the ability to play up real high with no issues from band pass effects or folds in the horn. I played around with coming up with something that was the same depth as a Hog (approx 1m) but never got round to building anything as it just seemed a bit mad when a single box would be nearly the same size as the HD215 I use now. ------------- Melbournes Rootical Warrior Roots - Dub - Steppers http://www.facebook.com/adrians.wall" rel="nofollow - facebook page |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 11:12am
| Martin F2B. don't know if anyone did ever manage to get some plans drawn for them - been discussed several times on here over the years. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 3:02pm
Thanks. Found some old threads too. https://forum.speakerplans.com/can-martin-215-mk3-or-f2b-keep-up-with-es18-or-usb_topic89467_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/can-martin-215-mk3-or-f2b-keep-up-with-es18-or-usb_topic89467_page1.html https://forum.speakerplans.com/topic18403&OB=DESC.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/topic18403&OB=DESC.html  ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
snowflake wrote:Posted By: Dutchman
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 6:57pm
|
Megaton em15 for me. Sounds very warm and smooth. But still hard hitting. It’s a BPH , looks very much like turbosound bph238. They are also quite small and light, i’m saying this because I owned 6x Martin 115 , loved them but so heavy and big awkward shape! Usb/es18 should sound the same, heard them before, they sure kick but slow monotone 18” sound to me... ------------- We need more SPL! |
Posted By: oren
Date Posted: 01 May 2020 at 4:02pm
|
Good kick of the em15 , gets some bad rep but honestly I think it's a good bin in terms of sound throw and price . And it's easy to build great for playing dance music like techno trance etc..
------------- Music is nice.. |
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 1:03am
At least two forum members have the (real) plans, but I don't think they have been widely published. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 2:11am
|
Thanks for your help guys. I was not familiar with those cabs..... http://hornplans.free.fr/em15.html" rel="nofollow - http://hornplans.free.fr/em15.html https://forum.speakerplans.com/em15-megaton-any-good_topic57276.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/em15-megaton-any-good_topic57276.html https://forum.speakerplans.com/em15-megaton_topic62086.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/em15-megaton_topic62086.html I can't find much on the F2B as far as plans (as you said) Surprising, considering how old it is. https://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-f2b-plans-anybody_topic18403_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-f2b-plans-anybody_topic18403_page1.html https://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-audio-f2b_topic2414_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/martin-audio-f2b_topic2414_page1.html ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 5:10pm
The trouble is, as I have mentioned in another thread, that this is a very difficult box to build. As well as the plans, you need a couple of people with plenty of expertise in building tricky cabinets. Plus ideally a CNC machine to do all the rebating, although the originals were built in a woodworking factory equipped with Wadkin copy routers (the ones where you follow a jig on a pin) and full size dimensional saws plus all the usual air tools. You also need to be willing to make at least one sacrificial prototype box (built screwed but not glued) to find out what needs to be tweaked to make everything fit together properly. And you really need to borrow an original cabinet as a reference to visualise how it all looks when complete. Bear in mind that 19mm plywood has a tolerance of 1mm or so, which means that the cutting dimensions, rebates, etc have to be referenced to the centre line of the cabinet (as they are on the original drawing). It's all quite fiddly to get right. The boxes have to be properly screwed as well as glued, otherwise they will eventually develop rattles. Pilot holes for the screws are drilled along the rebates in the two main panels before assembly. You can find out where the screws are in an original box without having to strip the paint, by feeling for them with a small magnet held in the fingers like a pencil. This will also find some staples - they were used to hold some parts in place during the very complicated assembly, which has to be done quickly before the glue starts to go off. The first part of the horn flare uses a couple of pieces of softwood, each cut to a specified profile. Everything else is in 19mm plywood, except for the baffle which is made in two parts (both 15mm if I remember right). |
Posted By: APC321
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 6:06pm
| 19mm ply? |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 6:33pm
Yes, at that time we were still using imperial ply 3/4 inch so it was 19mm. 1/2 inch has shrunk to 12mm and inch has become 24mm. quite a bit of difference over a whole cab. |
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 6:58pm
| I think it was actually specified as 18mm, but we often referred to it as 19mm and sometimes it measured 19mm due to the tolerances. As per Concept-10, the name was a leftover from the imperial sizes. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 8:06pm
Is it alot different than the Mk3? http://hornplans.free.fr/martin_mk3.html" rel="nofollow - http://hornplans.free.fr/martin_mk3.html ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 8:29pm
Yes
|
Posted By: Requiem
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 10:06pm
|
I wouldnt discount 12"s, the RB212 is a pretty good kickbin! Dont think the plans are publicly available though.. I use USB's personally but im sure there are better out there... The Void Stasys 8 for a start is brutal on kick, although it eats drivers ------------- www.requiem-soundsystem.com Custom Martin Audio WSX, USB & CSG Soundsystem based in Bristol |
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 11:29pm
This is just making me more curious to see the plan |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 02 May 2020 at 11:48pm
Thanks https://forum.speakerplans.com/void-stasys-8-vs-usb_topic30010_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/void-stasys-8-vs-usb_topic30010_page1.html http://voidaudio.ru/pdf/Stasys%208.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://voidaudio.ru/pdf/Stasys%208.pdf ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 12:41am
| Very little information around about them but the Opus HB215 should be on the list IMO. |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 4:46am
Thanks. I had never heard of them before.... ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 9:06am
I've been looking for the F2B plans for 20+ years and have never found it. Unless someone's got access to a filing cabinet in MA I really don't think it's gonna be in the public domain. Your only hope is to find one, (there's loads been shipped to Africa for some reason), and cut it open and measure. ------------- Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards. E=mc² ±3dB |
Posted By: APC321
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 12:46pm
| I haven't seen trapezoidal bass bins used much. (Ref. Opus HB215). |
Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 1:11pm
Noise Control RGW112 was a particular favorite trapezoid kick bin that I've used many times... and I have to say I've never seen a blown one ever. Ported horn with correct driver seems to last longer than me !  .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: doller
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 1:12pm
|
stop being a bunch of tight arses and upload the bloody plan. I doubt very much anyone will make a dime from it and it is as old as. Also madboffin don't under estimate the skills of some diy builders. they will try and try again because they do it for fun. not for the dime. Some people just want to see it. Just think of the number of hits sp will get. |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 1:13pm
|
One of these a side & two sturdy legged crew 
------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 2:26pm
Because if you thought the F2B might be difficult to build, try doing it in a trapezoid cab with compound mitres! |
Posted By: APC321
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 3:42pm
|
That's interesting, thanks. Actually was more thinking that with a rectangular bass bin you have the choice between stacking it vertically or horizontally, which gives you more options. But with a trapezoidal box you can only stand it on its end. |
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 03 May 2020 at 4:22pm
| Yes, and truck packing is no fun either... |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 04 May 2020 at 5:09pm
|
selenium hb1505c1 ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: RealitySound
Date Posted: 04 May 2020 at 8:28pm
|
http://hornplans.free.fr/hb1505c1.html" rel="nofollow - http://hornplans.free.fr/hb1505c1.html Thanks, I think this is what Adrians Wall Sound System was referring too. ------------- When you gonna send me some $$ mate ? |
Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 8:23am
|
Just remembered that Biotec built some 15" straight horn kick bins to sit on top of the Disjunkt Terrahorns which were pretty good. Sure he wrote about them on here somewhere. I can only find this hilarious photo of them from the web....  ( edit) Found the thread... https://forum.speakerplans.com/new-kick-horn-build-pics_topic14565_page1.html" rel="nofollow - Biotec Kick Horn Build .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 8:34am
| Nice phaseplug |
Posted By: JBK
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 10:01am
Spat my coffe on my desktop, you killed me mate.
 |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 1:53pm
Exceptional bottom end - but how big should phase plug for that be ?? ------------- I started out in this business with nothing. I still have most of it left. |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 5:41pm
Not only that but it's funny to read comments from people who have never heard a stack of F2B's talking about them as kick bins.
|
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 5:54pm
+1 They are definately broader deployable than just kick bin. Never owned any myself, but worked a lot with them as a freelancer in the nineties during pretty big open air festivals. Sometimes we didn't even use subs, just dozens of those F2B. |
Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 06 May 2020 at 6:47pm
Agreed Peter, a big stack of F2Bs is a monster at 45/50, funny but scoops are still revered as subs but would be destroyed by a similar sized F2B stack lol, (let the fighting beguine).
|
Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 07 May 2020 at 8:55am
 ------------- Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards. E=mc² ±3dB |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 1:04am
|
this is the most detailed drawing I've seen of the F2B   |
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 1:33am
| I wonder if that drawing is to scale, with the external box dimensions you could get a rough idea of the internal dimensions. It even has the unfolded horn length! If I find some time in the next week or two, I might try sim it in hornresp. |
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 5:04am
|
Okay, I couldn't help my self, it honestly went better than expected, I suspect that image is based on an actual internal drawing, driver is PD.1550. 1 pixel = 9mm    single F2B 4ohm load  2 F2B, series parallel, 8ohm load  |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 7:44am
https://ibb.co/XxPx9kZ" rel="nofollow">
This is likely to either be the original driver, if not very very close. ATC still provide this unit. ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 8:36am
|
I couldn't find the Le so I just set it to 1.5mH, doesn't appear to have any impact in the usable bandwidth anyway. Seems to be quite useable down to 50hz with 2 F2B coupled. Pa100-375 Bass 
|
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 10:35am
| blc driver i think i've read? |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 10:39am
|
there is a throat chamber of the air between the driver and the baffle. I suspect that the throat area is about 350cm2 and expands in both directions in that first throat section. |
Posted By: doller
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 12:37pm
|
nice one guys. If it is to scale just think about the 15 inch driver that is a great start point. it's 15 inch. also the external dimensions of the box are available. Thanks again. interesting stuff. |
Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 12:46pm
Do you mean a chamber extra to what is pictured? or the bit I have colored in red?  Maybe you could roughly draw it on so I understand? |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 1:03pm
|
the volume that is above the cone of the speaker diaphragm, the top of it is the baffle that driver is bolted to. there must be a hole (porbably rectangular) through that baffle linking the front chamber to the throat (the bit you've coloured red). |
Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 1:52pm
|
I find all of this highly amusing because when I gave our cabinet maker an empty original F2B he had a fair bit of fun measuring everything so as to get the correct measurements, angles and sizes and then swore at me when I told him that I wanted the cabinet stretched by 2.5" to enable the speaker cavity to take large chassis/magnet drivers as only the ATC(long coil bass with linen surround) or an RCF driver would fit in the original cabinet. Even the driver rebate dia had to be made deeper and larger in order to accommodate more modern drivers with greater Xmax than the originals so the cabinet is a bit of a nightmare build for accomplished professional builders so anyone who is thinking of attempting to build without an original to copy or a proper full drawing---I wish them the best of luck as they are going to need it
|
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 2:47pm
|
The drawing in the F2 manual, detailed above by Snowflake, does show the true shape of the folded horn. I can assure you of this because I wrote the manual, including that drawing. Like Robbo, I also find this whole debate very entertaining. A modern "stretch" version would need something like an extra two inches / 50mm each end, to accommodate a wider range of drivers. Having said that, the original ATC performs very well - not surprising as the F2B was designed around it. |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 3:50pm
|
only modern drivers that will fit and are in the right-ballpark acoustically are RCF MB15N401 and MB15N405. THESE DRIVERS DON'T FIT WITHOUT MODIFICATION. any other drivers you are going to be redesigning a whole nex box rather than creating anything close to an F2B.
|
Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 4:48pm
|
As Chris posted above, you can still get the original drive units from ATC. The only difference is that they don't have a Martin L1540 badge. |
Posted By: Isitone
Date Posted: 09 May 2020 at 9:05pm
|
[QUOTE = Schneeflocke] Dies ist die detaillierteste Zeichnung, die ich von der F2B gesehen habe |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 11 May 2020 at 8:17pm
Your prayers have been answered......  https://forum.speakerplans.com/topic105216_post1041870.html#1041870" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/topic105216_post1041870.html#1041870
|