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Dual 12+ HF

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105193
Printed Date: 03 December 2021 at 9:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Dual 12+ HF
Posted By: smitske96
Subject: Dual 12+ HF
Date Posted: 05 May 2020 at 1:08pm
Despite the current corona events, I am busy with some new stuff. For my latest project(s) I am busy with a total new system containing some Cubo21's (modified, to suit my dimensions better and loaded with 21DS115 or comparable). So with two A side I need some hefty mid/highs to keep up. I always liked the stackable systems like C7,XA2 etc, so I went this way with the whole systemdesign. 

What do I need:
-Enough SPL to keep up with 2 (ideally 3) cubo21's.
-Strong 100 Hz extension
-600x600x750mm max dimensions
-Passive XO can be implemented
->70 degree horizontal dispersion

So with these criteria in mind the first design that came to mind was the PM90/60. However, the total stack height would reach more then 270cm's. For the applications that I would use the system, there is not always that much height available. Also the passive XO would be difficult to even fit in the cab itself.

So i just started drawing some ideas up, and came with the following:

Loaded with something like a 12NDL76 or comparable. 
From the start I knew I would end up with a low XO for the HF-driver. So HF950 with ND950 or maybe a coax HF or the rest of the spectrum. I probably end up with some bandpass effect atm due to this arrangement. Trying to sim it in hornresp would clear this up in the future.


Next to this design I am looking in to the unity/synergy option. They look tempting, but are also a lot more complicated probably. 


Notes: Bracing is not done yet, so will be added where needed in the eventual design. 
BR ports could be added if extension is not low enough.
Passive XO is not needed right away, but it is planned in the future.



Replies:
Posted By: Old king coles
Date Posted: 01 June 2020 at 6:15pm
Interesting design! Any progress yet?


Posted By: P@Freak
Date Posted: 19 June 2020 at 11:29pm
Hello,

the shown will not work as intended because the construct will not play high because of length interference the ' tilted ' membranes ... ! You must develop + implement " Phase Plug Technologie " or your Crossover Frequenz is much to low for normal HF Drivers !! 

Wink P@Freak


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 20 June 2020 at 12:33pm
I kept in mind that some adjustments could be made between the two 12" drivers. So some kind of phaseplug would be possible. However, I do not need to go >1 kHz. Coax drivers or the ND950 are capable enough to be crossed that low.

That being said: In the end I went with a more conventional hornloaded dual 10. 
Main goal is that it has to workable from 110/120 Hz and up, loaded with 2x Oberton 10MB300 (hf driver not certain atm).
Now only waiting for the wood to start building.

Underneath 2x Dual 18 per side. For now powered by 3x Powersoft K3 DSP.


Will report when the building starts Smile


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 9:14am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

They look tempting, but are also a lot more complicated probably.

they're not. just figure out your wavelengths and pick the lowest values that line up. it's worth it 


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 9:16am
lowest distances not freq


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 12:45pm
From what I have read, all passive XO's for synergy horn were much more complicated and difficult to design. XO for the coming dual 10 won't be easy, but probably not as difficult like the synergy equivalent.


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 2:46pm
yeah they're complex passive circuits that set the precedent, but not having the time to build a complex passive crossover is not a reason not to build a unity horn, just run it active.

you have to give yourself the best possible mechanical canvas to begin with, and improve it from there electrically. 'you can't polish a turd' is probably a bit harsh of an anology because i respect people who have the capacity to build anything. However there's some truth to that saying too, and it does have an application in this context.  

arrange the drivers properly, run it active, measure all the possible variables, improve it. you never stop learning right?

and Danley run a ton of their big boxes actively....try not to buy into the hype surrounding how complex things are. we're only ever one step away from understanding what we don't know. and sorry for the rant



Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 5:55pm
I get that, designing such a crossover would be possible, but time is not on my side every year.
Even with this arrangement, these will take some time to get right (and still are expected to be good quality wise). 

Active on the longterm is also not really an option. I made the step to Powersoft k-series last week, and just buying one extra is not possible budget wise. Ging with a passive XO gives me some more options regarding deployment (in my case).


Note: I am thinking of going for a smaller synergy dual 8/10 for the smaller jobs, these won't have any problems regarding free time, and are easier to get tested (due to size etc).


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 6:08pm
but by the time you build them you'll probs have enough for another powersoft haha, 
but no, fair call i guess.
 
but on the other hand, someone might give you another powersoft when they find out your building a unity horn lol


Posted By: Digbethdave
Date Posted: 26 June 2020 at 7:37pm
Could you not just source some C7


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 27 June 2020 at 1:27am
@Keen
Building is a couple of weeks (if everything goes right), if you know anyone that gives powersoft dip amps for free: HIT ME UP. WinkLOL That aside, getting some K10's instead of K3's is higher up the list. (earning money is a different thing these days Embarrassed)

@Digbethdave

Sourcing some C7 is not much fun. That aside, I am more after Nexo Alpha M3/8 performance but with just a lower starting freq, and better sound quality. A challenge? Yess, but doable (in my eyes).


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 27 June 2020 at 12:27pm
LOL 

true that, man Confused 

- all the best with it anyway 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 21 August 2020 at 1:52pm
So the project is crawling along during the Covid-19 period and some changes have been made:

Per side:
-2x modified Cubo sub (with some help from Johan, many thanks!), mostly changed outer dimensions, including more height for stacking >900mm. Loaded with Ermm ; LF21N551, SAN215.30, 21SW152 etc etc. I am leening against the RCF or the Lavoce, mostly because both are very very similar LOL To keep the needed space for transport as small as possible, the wheels are mounted like a TH118.

-1x Dual 10" hornloaded top with a more conventional way of loading the 10" Oberton 10MB300 drivers.
For the last, I kept in mind that a lot of tweaking could be done to get the desired result, so don't look at the pictures like it is the final result. Things that could change: rear volume, first segment before the cones, some kind of cone correction etc. For the HF driver I am leening towards a coax (DCX464) mostly because of the possibilities in crossing down lower and the overal soundquality.

All will be powerd by Powersoft K series (DSP), for now I have three K3's but want to add a K10 or K20 in the near future. 




Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 24 August 2020 at 2:37pm
take a look at the ht210pro..
it uses the 18sound 10nda610 iirc + faital hf146.
(the HF horn is crap, better use something like the xr1464!)

- its a rel. cheap, small and lightweight cab that packs quite some punch and sounds good.. :)


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 25 August 2020 at 7:44am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

take a look at the ht210pro..
it uses the 18sound 10nda610 iirc + faital hf146.
(the HF horn is crap, better use something like the xr1464!)

- its a rel. cheap, small and lightweight cab that packs quite some punch and sounds good.. :)

Powerhandling wise it looks like they use the 10fh520.
It also does not have as much hornlenght, i am hoping to go down enough without using additional BR ports like the HT210.

Horn choice I am not sure yet, if I go with the low crossover there are onle 3 horns probably: XT1464, HF950, and the new Ciare PR614.


Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 29 August 2020 at 8:56am
I’m curious how the cubo sub works out. Do you think it will preform better then the paraflex you build?
I can recommend the 10fh520 very nice speaker!

Looking forward to see the results! 



Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 29 August 2020 at 10:50am
It probably won't perform better than tye paraflex cab, however that can be accounted to the larger cabinet. Cubo sub shows around 100/101dB and  106dB higher up, paraflex type-C shows similar but here and there an edge of 1/1.5 dB. Knowing that type-C paraflex etc are just to big for my use, these cubo subs will fit perfect with transport.

10FH520 looks like a nice driver, but I think other drivers fit better with hornloading.


Also busy with looking for options to source the Eminence NSW6021-6 here in the EU. Should have an edge over current pro 21's.





Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 30 August 2020 at 12:30am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Also busy with looking for options to source the Eminence NSW6021-6 here in the EU. Should have an edge over current pro 21's.



In what terms should heve an edge over pro 21?
Didn't look into it yet, just curious 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 30 August 2020 at 12:38am
More powerhandling, more Xmax, probably more lineair excursion.



Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 31 August 2020 at 9:57pm
..faital doesnt offer A.I.C.. ;)
nsw6021 in VUE sort of Cabs/processing might well be a great option to reduce weight/size, despite its costs, same as 18xl1800..?


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 31 August 2020 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

..faital doesnt offer A.I.C.. ;)
nsw6021 in VUE sort of Cabs/processing might well be a great option to reduce weight/size, despite its costs, same as 18xl1800..?

Aside from the larger Sd, the NSW has a stronger motor, stronger cone, more powerhandling etc.
From the reports that I have seen, cubo sub worked best with high BL drivers.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 26 November 2020 at 7:03pm
And the HF section arrived! Smile

https://ibb.co/tx79dyf" rel="nofollow">

With it, RCF HF950 horns and a Convair crossover (need to test, if it would suffice).




Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 27 November 2020 at 7:10am
I have a genuine question that rises once again after seeing this post;
I've seen you build all sorts of systems, most i've read/seen end up getting sold again.
Will this actually be a system you will keep?
What's the intended purpose for this system?



-------------
Best regards,
Teun.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 27 November 2020 at 7:21am
@Teunos

Until now, I only sold the TH-18 cab which I've build Wink

And yes, this one would be for keeps. Or the results have to be bad LOL


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 01 January 2021 at 9:44pm
So the build has started with the modified cubo 21" and 15" 6th order BP.
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">

Mid/high wil start in the coming weeks. At first one cab for testing and alterations, after that two final ones (4x10" + DCX464)


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 06 January 2021 at 8:16pm
Also ordered Raptor Liner, curious about the outcome.



Posted By: Bams
Date Posted: 06 January 2021 at 8:54pm
Thats some serious woodwork going on! But dont the 21” and 15” overlap?


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 06 January 2021 at 9:57pm
Overlap as in frequency response? If yes, they aren't ment to be used together normally.
Obviously I will try it at some point in the following configuration: 21"/15" BP/ (12"/1") reflex top.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 10 January 2021 at 12:08pm
https://ibb.co/6skfk5s" rel="nofollow">

Ready for painting Smile


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 10 January 2021 at 12:19pm
they look good. good work.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 17 January 2021 at 7:48pm
So far a good result with Raptor Liner:
https://ibb.co/N2jX0Zf" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 19 January 2021 at 9:03pm
the finish does look good indeed, congrats, i am curious about its meachanical and chemical long term durability - any experiences with aged Upolraptor cabs? :)


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 20 January 2021 at 7:17am
Top work! You should be proud :)

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 21 January 2021 at 4:58pm
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">

https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">

All loaded, next are the grills and connector panels. When those arrive some extra spraypaint to make the insides a bit more black.


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 21 January 2021 at 5:21pm
very nice Stef! Top Job!

btw., did you use PU glue or regular white woodglue?


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 21 January 2021 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

very nice Stef! Top Job!

btw., did you use PU glue or regular white woodglue?

Thanks Smile
I used water resistant (D4) white woodglue from Frencken to be precise. 
 


Posted By: aw-audio84
Date Posted: 29 January 2021 at 2:50pm
This is my own Development

Compact dual 10" Horn Top #PSH210 

2 x 18Sound 10nmb420
1 x Faital HF146 on Oberton H1460 Horn

https://aw-audio.de/boxenbauplaene/PS-H210%20standard%20V1.pdf


Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 29 January 2021 at 3:15pm
^ is it necessary to place "advertising" in someones build project thread?

Wouldnt it be better to open you own thread to explain/present your Project? :)


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 5:48pm
Some progress with the first prototype:
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">
https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 18 February 2021 at 3:21pm
Due to the (to) small room, mostly everything under 300Hz is not really usable. So here is the first set of not really usable measurements: LOL

https://ibb.co/ZKNnzvp" rel="nofollow">

Red is without a plate covering the 10" cones, light blue is half covered, rest is in between.
As expected, it definately helps getting the LF go some higher. I suspect the dip at +-300 Hz to be from the rather large S1. 

Also did some measurements with 6 70mm BR ports (above pic is without). Definately more LF output (by ear) Tuning was measured around 65Hz, but my laptop crashed just after the measurement, so could not save them Angry

Next step:
-Make S1 smaller
-Mount phase plugs (already made)
-Outside measurements




Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 19 February 2021 at 11:44am
Looking nice!
With plates covering the woofers, do you mean that they fire through a slot loaded chamber, creating a acoustical lowpass?
If so; it would likely benefit moving the slots towards the throat a little to maximize loading by the horn as well as provide a smoother horn profile to minimize reflections.
What are your plans for a crossover point? The 800Hz rolloff suggests a capable 1.4" should be ample to not require phase plugs, and the DCX464 should definitely be suited that low, or even lower.


-------------
Best regards,
Teun.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 19 February 2021 at 12:40pm
With that plate I create a half moon shape slot. With indeed the opening to the back maximizing the hornlength. If I go for a rectangular slot, there is more space left between S2 and S1. Due to the dimensions I cant place the drivers back any further.  The next panel will be fitted in the baffle cutout, and has a recessed ring for the driver to move freely.

As seen in the pic, it also helps with out of band peaks.
The DCX464 should be a nice combo. I already played a bit with the combo by ear, and it can certainly be loud. LOL


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 28 February 2021 at 10:12am
First connector panel done;
https://ibb.co/DgztxYk" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 06 March 2021 at 3:28pm
V2 ready for testing:
https://ibb.co/WBT09qk" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 3:40pm
Spent 5 min measuring the Cubo sub (no callibration what so ever), rain and wind prevented any further measurements unfortunately:
https://ibb.co/Wpj3Ymh" rel="nofollow">

Response is as expected rising in the upper part of the passband. Needs some out of band EQ to tidy it up. Nonetheless, I like the sound. 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 18 March 2021 at 4:55pm
New set of measurements done on the 4x10" with the different slots (as seen two posts above).
This time a GP measurement, mic @1m on the ground. Used space was an carport this time, so still some problems with lower frequencies

No EQ:
https://ibb.co/VJVXSML" rel="nofollow">

With EQ (5 PEQ) and off-axis (0/12/24/35 degrees):
https://ibb.co/MDz3npM" rel="nofollow">

With this info, I would chose a 650/700 Hz crossover (depending on the used type) between LF and the HF driver. Also raising the tuning a bit from 65Hz to 80Hz.  



Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

New set of measurements done on the 4x10" with the different slots (as seen two posts above).
This time a GP measurement, mic @1m on the ground. Used space was an carport this time, so still some problems with lower frequencies

No EQ:
https://ibb.co/VJVXSML" rel="nofollow">

With EQ (5 PEQ) and off-axis (0/12/24/35 degrees):
https://ibb.co/MDz3npM" rel="nofollow">

With this info, I would chose a 650/700 Hz crossover (depending on the used type) between LF and the HF driver. Also raising the tuning a bit from 65Hz to 80Hz.  




Good start, 1 metre is problematic though. The typically accepted norm for ground plane (or other measurements) is to go ~3x the largest cabinet dimension:
http://excelsior-audio.com/Publications/AES137_PD16_Measuring_Loudspeaker_Systems_rev06a.pdf

Another useful tip is to put the most reflective thing you can between the cabinet exit and the mic. You'll likely find this smooths things out a little.

What windowing is in use, if any?


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 5:42pm
@toastyghost
1m is indeed to short of a distance, last measurements I was bound by the weather conditions. Going for a larger distance would give me problems with other boundaries. In the coming weeks, weather is improving which gives me more freedom. A 244x122cm piece of wood will probably do the job as a reflective underground. For now that with a large grass field is the best I can do. A large concrete surface would be ideal, but not much of those in the neighborhood.

In the above pics, the IR window is set at the default values. So 125ms left and 500 right.


Btw thanks for that PDF, have not read that one yet Smile


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 6:32pm
Which 21" driver did you go for in the end? 




Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 22 March 2021 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Which 21" driver did you go for in the end? 



I settled on the SAN214.50. The 215.30 was still very hard to get.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 12 April 2021 at 10:59am
Quick update:

Getting the tuning frequency a bit higher to around 70-80Hz is very difficult with the current port layout.
So for now I am going back to panels that close fully at the front, and drill or cut the ports in to the panel (like the T24N). 

Also busy with the bracket for the DCX464 and HF950 horn. I can't mount the HF950 just at the front due to the weight. And not only an the entry due to the extra ringing of the horn if its floating free in the air.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 26 April 2021 at 7:22pm
Next up is the following layout:
https://imgbb.com/" rel="nofollow">
Hornresp predicts (as far as it can) some smoother response between 150-500 Hz. Also some gain rearchamber volume and space to get the drivers mounted. Hornlength is a bit shorter. 







Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 26 April 2021 at 8:46pm
You are nearing something like EV MTH4 mid section.
Missing the triangled block between the drivers, to reflect the sound 🙂




Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 27 April 2021 at 2:09pm
Correct, I am also opting to add such a panel later on while testing.
Note that the current panel between the two panels is for bracing purposes.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 08 July 2021 at 10:14am
To bump this topic. Next version of the 4x10" is on its way. Also carefully looking for some 10" neo options due to the weight. Hope to get some measurements done in 2 weeks (maybe 1). 
Besides that also curious about the eventual sensitivity of the Low/Mid section, could be hard for the DCX464 to keep up. 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 2:31pm
New update:
Unfortunately no grills from ra.be. They had waterdamage from grom the recent floods and can't profuce for quite some time. So I decided to go with foam grills and look for other options in a year or so.
Also ordered some 10FH500's for testing and possibly replace the ferrite Obertons. Weight wise they would save me 13,6kg per cab, besides that also some extra powerhandling and xmax. In return I lose some sensitivity, though not that much as the specsheets would give away probably.




Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 17 August 2021 at 2:42pm
With grill/foam:


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 07 November 2021 at 1:04pm
Some quick measurements with a UMIK 1 (@1,5m). 

Only low section, no EQ or filtering applied and the dip @118Hz is due to reflections.

Also tried it quick with the DCX464, no allignment done, just a LPF and HPF (24dB BW).

Even with this simple setup I already see a lot of potential in it, very good speech intelligibility and LOUD!
Next I really need a better measurement location to get some real things done but first i will assemble the cabinets for real. 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 10 November 2021 at 9:12pm
And since I still want to know the difference..

I bought a SAN215.30 LOL



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