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Distro Decisions

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105312
Printed Date: 29 March 2024 at 2:37pm
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Topic: Distro Decisions
Posted By: finnchapman
Subject: Distro Decisions
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 2:38pm
Easy everyone, 
Hope you are all good and making use of the sunshine - I'm out in the garden, building a few scoops as we speak.

Over the past few months I have been putting together my first system -
3 Oberton 18XB1300 Super Scoops on one channel of a Void Inf8 V2
HD215 with 2x Fane Sovereign 15-400LF on the other channel of the Inf8
2x MT121s loaded with recommended drivers (600W and 100W) running in stereo off a Void Inf5 V2 and a Void Inf X4

I also have a couple rackmount processors (EQ, compressor/gate/limiter) and a Berry DCX.

So far I have been running everything off its own 13A plug, but I am looking at getting a distro unit to tidy up the rack for gigging.

I have been offered a Kelsey PD7/32 for a good price, and am wondering whether I should go for it, or if I will be limited by having 13A output for each amp? I know the Inf8 can be powerhungry with more drivers, but will it be alright on 13A for what it is currently driving?? Should I be looking at 3-phase distros, or is that ridiculously over the top for this scale of system? How will the system perform if the distro has to be adapted down to a single 13A socket?

Any advice is very welcome! 
Cheers,
Finn (Forward Sound)



Replies:
Posted By: James Tengo
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 5:01pm
1 - What do the venues you play in have supply wise?
2 - Have you ever tripped a 13a fuse in anger? What current do you see on the Inf 8 readout under normal use?

The 32a to 13a sockets in the distro is akin to a ring main in a venue, so no different to your current use of "separate" 13a sockets for your amps


Posted By: James Tengo
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 5:04pm
The single 13a to 32a adaptor will not throttle system performance, current limiting doesn't work that way. The fuse will pass current until it fails, often at a value much higher than 13a....



Posted By: finnchapman
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 5:12pm
Thanks for the reply James - never tripped a 13A but not really pushed it too hard yet, as it's in my house and the neighbours wouldn't be too happy Wink

Venues have a mix of supplies as far as I am aware - some with 13A, some with 32A etc. I'm really thinking about futureproofing/if having this distro will hamper the system at all. The ring main point is interesting - does this hold true if the distro is off a single 13A versus each amp on its own? 

I also suppose I could have the inf8 off one 32A and the distro off another in a pinch. 

Thanks,
Finn



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Soundboy's Shaolin


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 9:10pm
I designed a 2u distro that has 2 inputs so you can run it off 2x13amp sockets  (Or 2x16 or 2x32) and it effectively runs as 2 distros, or press a switch and it runs the whole thing off one input if you only have one 32amp socket as a single distro.

I don't build them, just had the idea. 

Drop me a pm if that sounds useful.



Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by James Tengo James Tengo wrote:

1 - What do the venues you play in have supply wise?


^ this is the most important question really.

In an ideal world your Inf8 would have a 32A plug on its input and be given a 32A supply of its own.
The inf5 and inf4 both pull less than 13A each at full steam so running them both off a 32A- 13a distro makes sense as it keeps your cables a bit tidier. So ideally your venue will have 2 x 32A sockets.

But if your venue only has a single 32A supply (and you'll be lucky to get that in many small to medium sized venues) then it would make more sense to run the inf.8 from it, and run 13A from wall sockets for each of the smaller amps.



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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.


Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 28 May 2020 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

I designed a 2u distro that has 2 inputs so you can run it off 2x13amp sockets  (Or 2x16 or 2x32) and it effectively runs as 2 distros, or press a switch and it runs the whole thing off one input if you only have one 32amp socket as a single distro.

I don't build them, just had the idea.


Probably best to go with the conventional approach of cascading distros to give you flexibility.

Obviously I don't know your design JonB67, but this type of multiple input distro either makes one input live when not plugged in (ie widow maker) or is surprisingly expensive to implement correctly /  safely.


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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 8:14am
Nope, not a widow maker. Wink

I realised for my needs, and with the venue sizes I use never know what  outlets you're going to get, the ultimate in flexibility without rewiring the amp rack every time was what I wanted. 


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 12:52pm
just for reference i have used a void on 13 amp plug tops when nothing eles is  available  and seen it hit 21 amps without blowing nothing ,tho that was only running it at 4 ohm load per channel 

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: DJ-Dulux
Date Posted: 29 May 2020 at 1:03pm
Venues I play at range from garden parties to school halls to social clubs. All my racks are built with powercons. Each 20A powercon feeds either a big amp direct or a couple of items via a PDU (midtop amp and processor). Every rack has generally 2 powercon inputs.
I then have:
 
13A>16A adaptors (0.5m)
16A>20A powercon (0.5m)
16A>32A adaptors (0.5m)
16A>16A extensions (3, 5 and 10m)
32A>32A extensions (5 and 10m)
32A 3 phase to 32A single phase breakout splitter
 
Finally I have some rubber box
32A to 4 16A RCBO
16A to 8 13A
 
I can therefore run off pretty much anything I come across from 13A sockets to 3 phase 32A and its also easy to add to if I need more. The 13A>16A 16A>32A are useful for longer runs etc.
 
For most venues its 13A to 16A extensions into powercon.
 
Key is flexibility and the ability to buy or hire standard items if needed.
 
All cable in flexible rubber Ho7m-f.
 
Dupe...
 
 


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Dupe...


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 31 May 2020 at 9:29am
Unless your doing venues geared up for events coming through With suitable power etc. Keep it all 13a and just spread the load around the ring main.




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www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 31 May 2020 at 2:22pm
Most people I have seen use 16amp blue plugs or 20amp powercon for infi8’s.
A distro with 32in/out and a couple of 16 or 20amp outputs on breakers and then 13amp outs for the rest of the gear would be perfect. 
For venues with only 13amp outputs you’d just have to try to separate the amps the best you can. 



Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 31 May 2020 at 3:36pm
If you are running on a 16amp ceeform you probably have more chance of tripping the MCB than you would blowing a 13amp fuse in a BS 1363 plug.

The ceeform is likely to be fed via a 16amp type B MCB, a type B breaker will allow you to pass 3 to 5 times it’s rated current for about 10 seconds before tripping, the trip current then falls to about 1.4 its rated current (22.4Amps in this case) after about 16 minutes and eventually bottoms out as about 1.2 times the rated current. i.e. 1.2 X 16Amps = 19.2 amps

https://www.electricalclassroom.com/what-is-meant-by-b-c-d-k-and-z-curves-in-mcbs/" rel="nofollow - https://www.electricalclassroom.com/what-is-meant-by-b-c-d-k-and-z-curves-in-mcbs/

The BS1362 13amp fuse fitted in a UK BS1363 plug will allow you to pass up-to 30amps for about a second before blowing this value decreases to about 1.66 times its rated current (13a x 1.66 = 21.6amps) after about 100 seconds where it stays almost indefinitely.

The BS 1362 fuses rating is NOT its accrual current fuse is designed to blow, it’s the current at which the fuse dissipates 1 watt.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php" rel="nofollow - https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php

…. Either way the two figures are so close it’s not worth worrying about... If it'll run on a 16amp ceeform it'll run on a 13amp plug!!


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 31 May 2020 at 6:10pm
get a distro with at least three RCBs, more if you can find one. type C breakers for amps. powercon and C10 outs are preferable IMO. 32A input. decent meter and traffic lights. If you have spent thousands on equipment then spend £300 quid on a distro to run it!


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 01 June 2020 at 9:33am


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 01 June 2020 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by confused.com confused.com wrote:

..... The BS 1362 fuse with a 13 amp rating will rupture after a period of  approximately 700 seconds on a 20 amp load.It willl not tolerate 20 amps indefinitely.....


If you are referring to the “Bussmann Eaton TDC180 Technical Data 2042” the data sheet clearly states the fuse will pass 160% (20.8Amps for the 13Amp fuse) for a minimum of 30 minutes, however the accompanying graph stops at 700 seconds (Just over 11.5 minutes), the older version of the datasheet is as per the graph I posted above..... In all case the fuse MUST blow within 30 minutes at 190% of the fuse rating.




BTW, All I was trying to do was show that a 16amp breaker is just as likely to trip as you are to blow the fuse in a 13amp plug in a lot of venues with 16amp ceeform outlets… About 60% of venues I have been to recently that have 16amp ceeforms on stage are protected by a type B MCB.

I agree with you that a distro is always the best route however a lot of smaller venues only have 13amp or 16amp outlets and zero facilities to power anything larger.



Posted By: Danielr
Date Posted: 01 June 2020 at 4:47pm
I look at it this way...
Carry a decent way to give yourself the means to monitor and measure your power, and carry the relevant adapters to be able to use it in all the situation you think you are likely to encounter.

If I was only able to use a 13a sockets, then there would be an issue if the venue supplied something larger. (I'd need adapters)
For adapters, there is nothing wrong with taking a 13a wall socket, and using it to feed some equipment with a 32a plug on the back. the (larger) 32a power leads and devices will "be able to handle" anything the 13a socket should provide so no extra fuses)

but converting a 32a supply down to a 16a socket, you find yourself connecting wires rated for being connected to 16a feeds, being connected to a 32a supply and possibly not "being able to handle" what the supply can deliver, (so you find yourself either with melted cables, or adapters with breakers in them -which are more expensive.) 


So I ended up building a distribution unit that has a Ceeform 32a in (with a 32a RCBO on the input), and 16a outs, (with 16a RCBOs for residual and over current protection on each output) - So I can use a 32a ceeform wall socket. (and everything in between.) I carry an adapter that would put a 16a wall socket to connect to the 32a plug on the distro
I carry an adapter to convert that 3pin wall socket (13a) to a 16a cee socket.

Most of the time I'm using both the 3pin -> 16a ceeform and 16a ceeform to 32a ceeform adapter.
(yes there may be issues with discrimination depending on the size of fused the building has installed, and depending "how many" outputs on the distribution box I use...)

(all the adapters (except the 3pin - 16a ceeform) and cables are done with rubber cable, (H07) using appropriate sized conductors.)

echoing what a couple of guys above said:
How did I figure I wanted 32a ceeform as the input connector? - well I'd played events that provided 3pin power, and events that provided 16 ceeform. so for me it made sense, go a connector capacity size bigger than what you I was used to. (As DJ-Dulux said: I have flexibility for anything I may reasonably expect to see plus a few "bigger" supplies.)
Anything else is a large step away. I never expect to find myself sat looking at a 63A 3-phase socket. and if I am... better to hire in gear to deal with it, than buy and maintain my own for events that I just don't see.

second thing to echo: like snowflake said.
I found myself surrounded by equipment, on one side of the room was a huge amount of cash in "assets" (amplifiers, mixing desks etc.) on the other side of the room was a bunch of extension reels from B&Q...

If you're three zeros deep in amplifiers, much better "look" and much greater "piece of mind" to have the power supply/protection/monitoring sorted. 


Posted By: callumtruds
Date Posted: 05 June 2020 at 11:41am
First you should measure your actual draw. 
Power everything off one plug, be it a 13a plug or 16a cee form, play heavy duty cycle music, measure your actual current draw, turn the music up till its at war volume OR you reach a current value your unhappy with. Eg the 13 or 16a rating on your incoming socket. 
It may only pull 10a, or it may want to pull 20a. 

Its hard for people to give the right advice for your exact setup when they do not know the actual current draw of your setup.

Me personally I would put 2 x standard powercon connectors on your rack, one for the inf8, one for all other gear in the rack
Make up
2x 13a-16a ceeform
2x 16a ceeform-powercon
Buy a 32a - 2x16a ceeform distro 
 
Depending on overall current requirements for the system and how loud youll actually be playing it, you can then power your rig off any supply upto a 32a single phase socket.

I have never pulled above 13amps running 6x 18" turbo bins & 2 tops at high volumes ran off pkn xe6000 & xe2500.


Posted By: Digbethdave
Date Posted: 05 June 2020 at 6:09pm
It sounds like atm it's a hobby/play thing, so doubt you want to be spending that much on panelwork/distro. The size of venues I guess you'll be going too won't have a handy 63 or 32. Your most likely to get a couple double sockets. 
So That all run off a 13a fine, unless you are really spanking the tits off it.
If your spanking its tits, then pop the 8 on a separate 13.



Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 06 June 2020 at 1:28am
For Audio power is a bit weird, the strength of your supply is more critical than the size.

a 32A feed off 60 of 4mm will not sound as solid as 13A off 5m of 2.5MM (assuming same source PSC)

As said above, go 16A as you can use 2.5mm cable, def have 2 feeds one for the Inf 8 one for the "rest", the "rest" including DJ clutter/Band backline, common earth nodes are good make up a pair of 1.5mm 13A > 16A (there is a stupid thing about not putting 2.5mm in to 13A plug tops) and if poss rever your rack upto a double socket and plug in.

If you need run further 2.5mm 16A extensions are the thing (use decent connector and BOOTLACE the ends!!!!) you can export 13A on 2.5mm for about 30m before you have an issue, at that point you need 4/6mm cable.

Above all METER your mains!!! a £2 "socket checker" from CPC could/will save your kit and your life!!!!



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Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!


Posted By: Sonic the hedge
Date Posted: 09 June 2020 at 4:24pm

Originally posted by Boxes-R-Blue Boxes-R-Blue wrote:

For Audio power is a bit weird, the strength of your supply is more critical than the size.

This!

For community halls, pubs and even houses, a good place to  sometimes find a 'strong' 13A socket, is one built in to a cooker switch/outlet. Community halls in particular often have the kitchen next to the stage. One venue we used to use regularly has a side stage access from the kitchen which was perfect



Guaranteed to be on a 32a breaker and usually 6mm cable from the building DB. Assuming the cooker isn't being used you can be fairly sure that there is no other load on the circuit. Use a 13a/32a adapter and run 6mm from there, then the only limit is the fuse in the 13a plug, 20a all day long...

I have been known to disconnect a cooker and tail in, 100% legit AFAIAC, as long as it's connected, tested and certified by someone qualified, and get permission from the building owner of course.




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