Mini Sound System - 12'' scoop vs.?
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Scoops
Forum Description: One scoop or two ;-)
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=105930
Printed Date: 16 April 2024 at 6:19pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Mini Sound System - 12'' scoop vs.?
Posted By: jan.i.am
Subject: Mini Sound System - 12'' scoop vs.?
Date Posted: 10 December 2020 at 5:53pm
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Dear forum, I'm planning to build a mini sound system, starting from 2 scoops. I came across the 12''scoop plan from Eminence (as shown below) and I'm wondering how it sounds. Does anyone of you have a frequency response of that plan? I couldn't find it anywhere.. What design do you suggest as an alternative? I was thinking about the ES-15BLH (Staiper 15'' micro scoop) I mainly want to play reggae/dub on it and I want to build something small for manageability purposes. My goal is to reach as much sub bass as possible with those small dimensions. Could you also recommend me a suitable driver? Thank you very much for your wisdom!! 12''scoop plan from Eminence http://scoopbin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Eminence-12inch-Scoop.jpg
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Replies:
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 10 December 2020 at 8:33pm
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Personally I would recommend going with a tapped horn design. THAM12 or Cubo 12 spring to mind. I built Cubo 12 and they where great little bins. THAM is supposed to be better... Anyway, small rigs are great fun, hope you go through with it.
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Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 10 December 2020 at 8:34pm
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PS if you really want to hit sub 50hz, you may want to go reflex... And sorry I didn't answer your questions.
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Posted By: fat_brstd
Date Posted: 11 December 2020 at 11:07am
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12" scoops only work well when they are massive, the horn needs to be long in order to hit low notes so when you make them small they stop dropping low. Not really the best when it comes to being portable. Reflex 15" can do a lot of damage and hit easily low enough for reggae/dub. Really it is all about how loud do you want to go vs how small you want, as always Hoffman's iron law applies. I think if you did want to go for a small driver in a scoop then rather than that old eminence plan which never worked very well the handful of times I've heard it, you would be better off using a more modern plan. Keep the horn shape, shrink it width ways so it really narrow, and adjust chamber size until you get something more suitable to a small driver. You could also get away by reducing the height by 6" compared to an 18" scoop plan, just cut 6" off the top and move the internals down that far. ------------- Melbournes Rootical Warrior Roots - Dub - Steppers http://www.facebook.com/adrians.wall" rel="nofollow - facebook page |
Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 11 December 2020 at 11:19am
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With 312L outside volume you definitely have better options then the ones you posted earlier. THAM 18 is even smaller, but doubt it would go low enough for your needs. Personally I also would go the tapped horn/ paraflex route. 300-350 L gives you enough options. Being not always that popular, Cubo Sub will do 35 Hz -3dB using a nice 18". |
Posted By: SubMeditation
Date Posted: 27 December 2020 at 9:07pm
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How you want to transport your sound? For mobile use? Keep in mind that one big 18" will be more efficient than two 12". But if you want to keep things small and want to hit 30hz on the same level as the ones above, something like volvotreters 10" could be a good option as well ( http://wp.volvotreter.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/AWM104_TH_Rev_0.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://wp.volvotreter.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/AWM104_TH_Rev_0.pdf and http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-mivoc-30hz-tapped-horn/" rel="nofollow - http://wp.volvotreter.de/projects/th-2/the-mivoc-30hz-tapped-horn/ ) A friend of mine got this one, i've build a tapped horn for 30hz with that cheap driver as well and it worked great for small sessions with 20 people or so while still being able to transport it on a bicycle trailer for children. And the 12v batteries for the session on the carrier. For mobile use it's a nice driver since it got 4 ohm resistance and most cheap class d amps can output more watts on 4 ohm. I read somewhere that the eminence 12" plan doesn't go that low, surely not lower than 40hz, so great for roots, but not deep enough for the lowest notes on steppa tunes. I've heard reggae music for 2 years over a mobile system that goes to 38hz, and still its great, but if you stick with it, you want to hit 33hz sooner or later to enjoy steppa to the fullest. Still, i know a local sound guy who does his small mobile sessions with one hd15 as it's the most eficent cab in that size, between 80 and 150 hz tough. But still, if the tunes are spinning and the session is blaz'in, it's great fun. |
Posted By: jan.i.am
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 9:15am
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Thank you so much for all your replies!! It's really helpful ro read all this things. Reflex or tapped horn would be efficient, but I really would like to stick to the horn shape and build a scoop. I think I might try to design a scoop myself and then simulate it. Like fat_brstd suggested, I will try to shrink the size of a 18''scoop down to a smaller one. I'm still in doubt what size I should choose. Whether if I should build a mobile 12'' one or a 15'' one to hit the lower frequencies. As always I have to settle for a compromise in terms of compact size and deep bass. So if you have any suggestions or opinions, I would like to hear them.
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Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:07am
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Here is the plot for the 12" emi scoop you asked for, dosen't go low at all:  |
Posted By: jan.i.am
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:09am
| Wow thanks!! Do you know which driver was used? |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:11am
Wow that is bad
 waste of wood  |
APW wrote:Posted By: jan.i.am
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:14am
yeah, doesn't look that great.. but who knows which driver was used for this
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Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:21am
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The driver is as stated on the plot (Old EM12-150), the plots for all the old emi scoops are with the plans in the old Eminence book that’s from the late 80s/early 90s and is almost identical to the plan in the Fane book from the late 70s/early 80s…. it’s a very old design!! …. Plus it doesn’t matter what driver you put in this design the horn length it way too short. |
Posted By: jan.i.am
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:24am
Ok thank you. Pretty sure I won't go with this old design;)
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Posted By: SubMeditation
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:35am
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The driver is not the reason for the fast drop, its the horn length. So if you just scale down an 18“ scoop you‘ll reduce the horn length aswell, resultung in an higher cutoff. Still you can squeze out a few hz with a bigger chamber, but it will only do a few hz though. So you‘ll need at least the path length of a normal scoop, but be aware that one normal scoop also drops quick after 38hz - only 4 reach lowe keys with presence. So maybe a mini scoop wich looks like a small scoop but works more like a reflex bin is best for you? If you don‘t plan to build 4-6 cabs and want to hit 33hz that would maybe be a better option. But you can still modell an own scoop with hornresp, its great fun to learn it ;) i just want to warn you of just scaling down as that changes the whole charactaristics.
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 28 December 2020 at 11:17am
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I remember someone posting about a successful 15" paraflex build. It was in a thread about something else, but the poster was very happy and reported good extensuon down to 30 hz.
I also remember seeing a double 8" scoop made by some swedish guy on the web...... Maybe a 15" scoop with 15DS115 would be the ticket to get low extension with a single scoop.....
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 30 January 2021 at 3:31am
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Found the thread in the new projects section, in case you missed it, paraflex altcon 15 build with B&C 15ds115. Check out the size and outout compared to a full scoop http://forum.speakerplans.com/2x10-vented-horn-idea_topic100997_page8.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/2x10-vented-horn-idea_topic100997_page8.html
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Posted By: SubMeditation
Date Posted: 31 January 2021 at 1:56am
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Woo, that looks wired, like an 6th order bandpass box - tapped horn hybrid..? Or why there is a big chamber near sourround the back of the speaker, a lot bigger than the opening? But the messurements look great! So can someone explain how it works for better understanding? The hornlengh is definatly to short for 30hz, so the chamber size tunes it down? ...still the output at 33hz is a not like i would tune it, but an adaption of that principe could be worth a try.
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 31 January 2021 at 9:43am
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Its a serie tuned 6th order band pass with a additional resonator parallel tuned. there are a lot more different designs you can find them on Facebook High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community). Take a look and enjoy! I really like the sound, the size to spl en bandwidth ratio.
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 03 February 2021 at 4:03pm
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Personally think 12" Scoop would be complete waste of time. Think the same of 15" Scoops. If you want huge bang in small cab: 1. Build Staiper MS18 MiniScoop/Mykey Rhino 18" Scoop 2. Buy used Shortman Mini Scoops 3. Load them with Void V18-1000 or PD1850 or PD1851. 4. Power them with proven quality amplifier, not cheap chinese sh*t. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: jan.i.am
Date Posted: 03 March 2021 at 9:16am
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I'm building a mini scoop. I already designed one based on the Staiper MS-18 MK3. Today I go to the sawmill to buy the plywood and then I start building it. I still don't know which driver I'm gonna choose.. I have to do some more simulations. I will keep this thread updated.
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Posted By: SubMeditation
Date Posted: 03 March 2021 at 11:05am
Thanks for the tipp! Looked through it and red the thread on diy audio + made some simulations to design a 10" which can play to 32hz and have the additional spl that is normaly in the kick area tuned down to 80-90hz - still working on a good folding that keeps the barycentre low because we want to carry it around on bicycle trailers. Comparasion measurements with 3-4 other cabs with the same 10" driver coming this summer ;) I'm really curious how it proforms in the real world against the other drivers since the facebook group and the +100 pages diy audio thread are quite poor on good (not taken with the smartphone) real world messurments...
If you are a commercial dj touring with a van - you're right. But if the want to carry around your speaker on a bicycle, listening while riding, beeing able to carry it alone and use it as your home sub aswell, a 12"/10" scoop could still have a reason as you can make it smaler=lighter than an 90x90x60 mini scoop - for sure not close with the same output/efficiency but still enough to fill city streets - and if everybody of your friends gots one fun gets even bigger if you meet up ;) (talking from my experience on bike demonstrations with one 10" car audio sub driver that i got for 35€ on ebay screwed in a tapped horn and driven from a 500w (300w real output) chinese amp for 10€ (still had to invest 30€ in two step up converters to run it from 12v batteries;))
Great! Looking forward for your modifications on the designs and further updates! :) |
Posted By: JBK
Date Posted: 03 March 2021 at 4:02pm
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Greetings, I think the remarks saying "10"/12" scoop is a bad idea" are not regarding the general concept of having a compact sub, rather that the scoop design isn't suited for smaller drivers/cabs. Also, scoops are usually made to be played in stacks, one scoop alone won't drop as low as several (typically group of 4) due to the horn loading. I'd rather look at bass reflex or ported horn designs for smaller cabs. If it's just fo looks you can make a BR look somewhat a scoop. For your aim this cab http://hornplans.free.fr/mth30.html" rel="nofollow - http://hornplans.free.fr/mth30.html seems adequate, I'v never heard it personnaly but heard quite good reviews on it (people are impressed on the output vs the size of the cab) |
Posted By: SubMeditation
Date Posted: 03 March 2021 at 9:07pm
True dat, you cant have the quarter sinewave effect with on scoop. Personally i'm preferring tapped horns against scoops on small sized boxes of that reason as well from the theory, but i haven't tested them 1 to 1 jet. Testing an 12" BR vs same sized 10" scoop/tapped horn designs is also something im looking forward to test. Still i felt like adding some points to the discussion of small sized boxes (not specially scoops) here: From my comparison an adam sub 10 (BR box), an 15" br box and an 10" and 6,5" tapped horn i can say that the smaller the driver the least room resonance & more feeling (vibration) just in front of the speaker you get on same levels. Also i felt this was the case on the tapped horn vs the BR. So if home use in a flat with neighbors is a factor, you could have more of the soundsystem feeling (considering the same volume in the neighbors flat) with small drivers sitting/standing right in front of them, than with a BR box or bigger drivers - for sure something not many people will need though ;) I didn't listened to the mth30 but from my expirence with tapped horns that run to 38hz i felt that if you want to enjoy modern steppa music to the fullest you'll have some of the lowest notes missing in maybe every 4rd song or so - still you can enjoy it a lot and most people won't notice that the bass stops because the box won't play it in that moments, but if you know it, and know how the song is supposed to sound you'll avoid playing this songs - at lest for me ;) The MTH30 cuts at 50hz, while that makes it enormous efficient, as you mention, i won't get happy with it i guess - but it depends on the music you play and if you can compromise on low bass notes in exchange of a lot more SPL. |