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Any good for use on low bass ?

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Printed Date: 22 June 2021 at 5:20am
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Topic: Any good for use on low bass ?
Posted By: slaz
Subject: Any good for use on low bass ?
Date Posted: 22 February 2021 at 10:51pm
Hi - hoping for a bit of input from the guys who can look at T/S params and assess how they'll do a certain job .... ( I broadly understand individual params, but I don't have the knowledge/experience to make a judgement just on the figures).

The driver in question is the B&C 15CL76

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC15CL76&browsemode=manufacturer

The attraction to me is the weight :-)
The context for wanting it is here ...

http://forum.speakerplans.com/15-bass-box-with-a-difference_topic105984.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/15-bass-box-with-a-difference_topic105984.html

So - I need a driver just for bottom octave really (lets say 40--80) as the FBT Maxx 4 12" box above plays very well down to about 70. I'm not toally sure what 12" driver the Maxx 4 uses - could very well be a 12NDL76 (its definitely a B&C  neo driver with a 76mm VC).

Here's the B&C T/S params for the 15CL76 :-

Parameters


  • Fs 42 Hz
  • Re 5.1 Ω
  • Qes 0.34
  • Qms 7.9
  • Qts 0.33
  • Vas 135.0 dm3 (4.8 ft3)
  • Sd 855.0 cm2 (132.5 in2)
  • η₀ 2.9 %
  • Xmax 7.0 mm
  • Xvar 8.5 mm
  • Mms 108 g
  • Bl 21.0 Txm
  • Le 1.3 mH
  • EBP 123 Hz
Power handling is hardly an issue - it won't get more than about 200W or so (battery power setup).

So my question is .... will the 15CL76 be able to do an adequate job as a "sub" driver ? I get the impression its designed really for 2-way boxes (maybe stage wedges etc.)
I'm not sure how much depends on the driver vs. how much depends on the box tuning ....

I would put it in a compact reflex box - not aiming to play very low ... 45Hz would be good. Just needed to fill somewhat in below the Maxx 4.

TIA





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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON



Replies:
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 22 February 2021 at 11:24pm
40 Hertz is too generous. This speaker's Sound Pressure Level will be reduced significantly below 60 Hertz.
For a stage monitor, 60 Hertz is fine. The loudspeaker's voice coil cannot generate anything below 60 Hertz with great importance.

Best Regards, 




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Elliot Thompson


Posted By: lickweed
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:50am
fbt maxx4 its 12hpl64 , 2,5" vc

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http://www.liquidsound.co.uk/


Posted By: VECTORDJ
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 10:45am
Use 18 for sub................



Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by VECTORDJ VECTORDJ wrote:

Use 18 for sub................



Erm - well thanks for replying .... but its not very useful. I have a 18" driver - which I could make a reflex box for - but until medicine has found a way to reverse ageing, found a way to permanently cure my back problems, and I've moved house to somewhere with ground-level storage, it would sit there doing nothing for all eternity.

I need a lightweight driver for a ultra-lightweight enclosure. Can be low power handling. The requirements are quite different to most - the context is in the in the other thread I linked.




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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by lickweed lickweed wrote:

fbt maxx4 its 12hpl64 , 2,5" vc


Ah - OK - thanks for correcting that.


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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:23pm
Try exploring RCF Drivers. They tend to offer better options than B&C in 15 - inch drivers capable of delivering 40 Hz.

Best Regards,  


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Elliot Thompson


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:30pm
.


Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

40 Hertz is too generous. This speaker's Sound Pressure Level will be reduced significantly below 60 Hertz.
For a stage monitor, 60 Hertz is fine. The loudspeaker's voice coil cannot generate anything below 60 Hertz with great importance.

Best Regards, 




Yeah well I thought this might be the case. OTH - I'm not expecting bass with any great authority - just a "taste of bass" ..... so I guess essentially I'm looking for something that can play a fair bit lower than 70Hz - down to about 45Hz or so.
Thing is - it also needs to be lightweight - neo motor preferably ...

Beyma 15P80Nd looks quite good - but its too expensive, and not particularly light (6Kg).

I'm not sure if such a thing really exists.

Does a lowish Fs indicate (broadly) suitability for bass ?

Eminence Beta15 looks like a possible also - weighs 4Kg.
Stated sensivity of 98db - but what about in the 40-80 passband ? Spec says "useable" response down to 45Hz - which would be OK for me. Weedy looking motor and a 2" VC.



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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 1:33pm
15CL76 is will do solid lows down to 40 Hz in a big(-isch) box, say 200 liter or so. Given the moderate power, you won't run into Xmax trouble like that, but 200 liter is hardly compact.
Look for low Vas speakers. Certainly not the only parameter dictating smaller cabs, but it's a start. Low Fs can be an indicator too.
Eminence Beta 15 is not the right speaker for you needs, way to high Vas and that would make a +500 liter cab to get the needed response of let's say 40-70 Hz. It would work very well, but VERY big too.




Posted By: studio45
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 2:01pm
If SPL is not a priority, have you considered a low-tuned reflex with a low FS, low powered, rubber surround driver (or multiple) 
Eg something like the Beyma 12BR70 will absolutely wobble out that lowest octave, but only at "loud Hifi" levels. It's got a tiny magnet. I bet two of them only weigh as much as that 15. 
Personally I've just given up on the idea of bass below 60Hz on my mobile rig, it's just too much effort!


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Studio45 - Box Builder Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

40 Hertz is too generous. This speaker's Sound Pressure Level will be reduced significantly below 60 Hertz.
For a stage monitor, 60 Hertz is fine. The loudspeaker's voice coil cannot generate anything below 60 Hertz with great importance.

Best Regards, 




Yeah well I thought this might be the case. OTH - I'm not expecting bass with any great authority - just a "taste of bass" ..... so I guess essentially I'm looking for something that can play a fair bit lower than 70Hz - down to about 45Hz or so.
Thing is - it also needs to be lightweight - neo motor preferably ...

Beyma 15P80Nd looks quite good - but its too expensive, and not particularly light (6Kg).

I'm not sure if such a thing really exists.

Does a lowish Fs indicate (broadly) suitability for bass ?

Eminence Beta15 looks like a possible also - weighs 4Kg.
Stated sensivity of 98db - but what about in the 40-80 passband ? Spec says "useable" response down to 45Hz - which would be OK for me. Weedy looking motor and a 2" VC.



Eminence will give you lots of options in terms of 15 inch drivers however, the response curve will not be flat due to Eminence preferring a reasonable sized cabinet. You could always add a hefty dose of wadding to tame the over bearing 60 – 80 Hz under the given circumstances.


Honesty, for the power you have to drive the loudspeaker, the cabinet size restraints in addition to, the 45 Hertz objective, I would explore 12 inch options from Eminence. Possibly the Beta 12. You should get 50 Hertz out of a 90 Litre box. A +6dB boost @ 50 Hz should get – 3 dB @ 40 Hz.


It is a 250 watt RMS loudspeaker which, will be a lot easier to drive on a 200 watt amplifier than, a modern-day 15 inch driver that needs 3 times the power just to move.


You can always contact Eminence and tell them your requirements and, they will find the best driver for your needs if you must have a 15 inch driver.


Best Regards,





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Elliot Thompson


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 23 February 2021 at 3:17pm
Bear in mind that if you use a more powerful driver you could do something like tony wilkes q15 (tony sadly passed away a few years ago but the plans are still available from bee on this forum) which used a b6 alignment and a stack of eq to get a decent response from a tiny cabinet.

https://forum.speakerplans.com/q15-compact-15-bass-bin_topic70808_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/q15-compact-15-bass-bin_topic70808_page1.html

I post this as plywood is heavy and so a box that small will be light enough to offset the weight of a bigger magnet several times over.  

He also did a q12. 


Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 24 February 2021 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Bear in mind that if you use a more powerful driver you could do something like tony wilkes q15 (tony sadly passed away a few years ago but the plans are still available from bee on this forum) which used a b6 alignment and a stack of eq to get a decent response from a tiny cabinet.

https://forum.speakerplans.com/q15-compact-15-bass-bin_topic70808_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/q15-compact-15-bass-bin_topic70808_page1.html

I post this as plywood is heavy and so a box that small will be light enough to offset the weight of a bigger magnet several times over.  

He also did a q12. 


Yeah I met Tony once at a sound system shoot-out (in a church in Hackney !!) - lovely unassuming fella .... and funnily enough I kinda had something of that ilk in mind - but I wasn't really aware of the need for such heavy EQ (and corresponding amplifier headroom).

Plywood - well I don't doubt what you're saying about that, but I will NOT be using plywood.
Prospective material is a specialised aluminium honeycomb faced with fibre glass - hellish expensive stuff, but I happen to have some (recycled) already. Much lighter than plywood.
Not sure how it'll behave as a speaker enclosure (well I'd actually use a plywood baffle with the other 5 panels from the composite stuff) .... one way to find out. Dunno if anyone's tried it ...
Almost sure it wouldn't hack it for being chucked in the back of a transit time and again, but thats not my intended use.




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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 24 February 2021 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by studio45 studio45 wrote:

If SPL is not a priority, have you considered a low-tuned reflex with a low FS, low powered, rubber surround driver (or multiple) 
Eg something like the Beyma 12BR70 will absolutely wobble out that lowest octave, but only at "loud Hifi" levels. It's got a tiny magnet. I bet two of them only weigh as much as that 15. 
Personally I've just given up on the idea of bass below 60Hz on my mobile rig, it's just too much effort!


Well yeah I tried to look into that a bit. I actually have a bunch of hi-fi 8" woofers - would play quite low methinks - but would need at least 4 I reckon to match a 15" for cone area. Box would wind up quite big I think.

The 12BR70 - wobbling out :-) .... do I get the feeling you think it'll have crappy cone control ? Muddy vwoom vwoom ? Thats NOT what I want :-) Nice well-defined bass lines around here thanks very much :-)

Personally I've just given up on the idea of bass below 60Hz on my mobile rig, it's just too much effort!

Yeah - know what you mean. Even with a super-lightweight box, it's still gonna at least double the size and weight of my rig - will need extra battery, extra amplifier, quite possibly a DSP or analogue Xover, bunch of extra cables, extra trolley .... eck. All for an extra 25-30Hz !!

TBH, most of the "punters" (well they're not paying money) seem to like it as is. It does sound miles, miles better than any of the cheapy Chinese plastic things they're used to hearing around the place. I'm the only one really wanting/missing the bass extension :-)



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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 24 February 2021 at 4:51pm
"Almost sure it wouldn't hack it for being chucked in the back of a transit time and again, but thats not my intended use."

What about gluing on a thin veneer of 4mm/6mm ply? That will make it far more robust, easier to rivet extrusion/edging & not add too much weight!   Smile

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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 24 February 2021 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:

Not sure how it'll behave as a speaker enclosure (well I'd actually use a plywood baffle with the other 5 panels from the composite stuff) .... one way to find out. Dunno if anyone's tried it ...


Kinda sorta... used 1 cm aluminum honeycomb panels for things like access panels in horncabs. Properly stiff and all that, but it was way too difficult to glue/bolt/... together as in a complete cabinet. Great for "loose" parts though.
To save weight I tend to make (sub)bass cabinets in 10/12/15 mm birch ply and brace a lot more than you normally would. Triangels in corners, small ribs on every panel, connections between left-right, top-bottom, etc.. and glue/screw together in the middle of the cabinet, where connection ribs cross each other in all dimensions. Always amazed how "thin" you can go with the outside panels and end up with a seriously stiff box. It's a lot more labour, but it works out real fine.




Posted By: KaphaSound
Date Posted: 25 February 2021 at 6:55am
Originally posted by slaz slaz wrote:



Yeah - know what you mean. Even with a super-lightweight box, it's still gonna at least double the size and weight of my rig - will need extra battery, extra amplifier, quite possibly a DSP or analogue Xover, bunch of extra cables, extra trolley .... eck. All for an extra 25-30Hz !!

TBH, most of the "punters" (well they're not paying money) seem to like it as is. It does sound miles, miles better than any of the cheapy Chinese plastic things they're used to hearing around the place. I'm the only one really wanting/missing the bass extension :-)


Those bottom 30hz are a whole octave! And imo end up being a real differentiator between average typical venue sound and a complete system. 15s can definitely be used to push that weight like Danley’s new BC215 series but it is trickier and often times an 18 will be best. Agree on downsizing though to save weight/backs/space


Posted By: KaphaSound
Date Posted: 25 February 2021 at 6:55am
Woops posted twice


Posted By: Meat Substitute
Date Posted: 25 February 2021 at 8:04am
BMS have some stonking small cab drivers. For example my 18s only require 130l which is more like a 15" enclosure. Some of the new B&Cs like BG range seem to do this too.

For super compact low and light the BMS 12n630 would be where I'd go. Solid little driver that. I think Tony Wilkes was getting decent performance at only 40l or so. I did something similar with the ciare 12.00SW which was good fun but that was a heavy little bugger so it wouldn't fit your brief.

The 15CL does look great value and super light but as others have said I don't think its gonna do what you want.




Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 26 February 2021 at 4:06pm
Hmmm.

Nobody's posted any sims, in 1.5pages of replies? Poor show.

Anyway, whether it'll be loud (& deep) enough depends entirely on you I'm afraid. It will certainly be capable of producing more output than your Maxx4 down low, but it might not be enough to be worth it. If I understand you correctly, you're going to be limited by both amp power and by total cabinet size if you want to use those Hexalite panels from your other post.

If you want to keep to the approx size of the Beyma cab you used as an example previously, that gives you only about 90 litres net internal volume. You do have enough panel area to go a bit bigger (assuming the panels are decently straight and you don't have to trim them for ragged edges etc); I think you can get to about 110 litres net mostly by deepening the cab, which won't add too much weight.

Herewith the 15CL76 in each cab size, alongside the 12HPL64-4 as a rough guide to what your Maxx4 may be doing (use that for the SPL only, obviously I don't know the exact box size & tuning to predict its exact LF behaviour). 
Also, I've assumed it's one of the Bassface 4.1 models you have, I think I remember that from a previous thread. That limits you to about 33Volts bridged into 8 ohms or 27 Volts bridged into 4 ohms, which are the values I've used here. The 110 litre option has the attraction that it can use 2 of the 100mm dia ports that Blue Aran sell without needing to faff about cutting them to a different length (or building in a shelf vent etc). The 90 litre option doesn't fall so conveniently unless you wanted to tune it a bit higher, which would increase its max spl by about a dB but also raise its LF cutoff.


One thing to bear in mind, if you were to decide it might be worth investing in a bigger amp in the future, this driver could go about 5dB louder before reaching XVar which *might* be enough to sway the choice. You'd be best to build the box with bigger ports from the start if you were going to do this - no point buying the bigger amp then being disappointed at noisy or inefficient ports after all.

HTH,
David.


Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 26 February 2021 at 7:45pm
This would be my take on it :
12N630 in a BP6 config and tuned so it complements your current cabs, without the need for a crossover (or just a lowcut).

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c" rel="nofollow - https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c


Posted By: infrasound
Date Posted: 26 February 2021 at 7:47pm
Nice one David

Smaller driver such as 12CL64 (4r) may be worth a look too, given the low power available.

F10 will be lower , but SPL will suffer slightly too.



Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 27 February 2021 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Peter Jan Peter Jan wrote:

This would be my take on it :
12N630 in a BP6 config and tuned so it complements your current cabs, without the need for a crossover (or just a lowcut).

https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c" rel="nofollow - https://app.photobucket.com/u/Peter_Jan/p/d73cfb1d-7e5f-47b2-9843-dbf3e549365c

Undoubtedly a higher quality driver than the B&C CL series, and nice & compact, but still 4-5dB less output than the 15CL76 over most of the bandwidth. Would be viable if the OP were happy to buy a bigger amp though, as it has plenty excursion available.


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 27 February 2021 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by infrasound infrasound wrote:

Nice one David

Smaller driver such as 12CL64 (4r) may be worth a look too, given the low power available.

F10 will be lower , but SPL will suffer slightly too.


I did look at that, unfortunately the 4 ohm versions have very low Qe, meaning there's quite a sag in the bass range, so even though it'd draw more power being 4  ohms, it doesn't keep up with the 8 ohm 15".

I also looked at using 2 of the 8 ohm version; while that gets louder than the 15" it doesn't get as deep, unless the cab can be made bigger still.

Two of the 10CL51 would be hilariously light and get about as loud & low as the 15", though would be a bit more ££. 
Not as suitable for upgrading the amp later however as they'd already be close to max excursion on the existing amp.

I actually do think that the 15CL76 in the biggest box that Slaz can afford to make out of the Hexalite panels (and indeed carry up & down the stairs), is the sweet spot right now, FWIW.


Posted By: slaz
Date Posted: 02 March 2021 at 5:13pm
Wow ! Only just spotted these posts .... thanks v. much guys !!

But - <sigh> I'm still humming and hahing about what to do.

I'd love to have a bit of bass extension, but I'm also thinking along the lines of what studio45 posted

"Personally I've just given up on the idea of bass below 60Hz on my mobile rig, it's just too much effort!"

More bulk, more weight, another trolley arrangement, more storage space, more batteries reqd. prob a bigger amplfier, possibly a DSP or active Xover .... and quite a bit more money - aaaargh !!

Also wondering if I had a proper EQ/DSP and maybe a Pioneer GM-D amplifier with a bit more power/headroom, might I squeeze an extra few Hz out of the FBT mid-top ?

OTH - I do kinda like the idea of using that Hexalite stuff for a speaker box !!

Weather/daylight is on the up, getting a bit nearer the "season" now .... need to decide soon.



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REMEMBER....POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 04 March 2021 at 2:04pm
Aye, unfortunately easy, light, cheap, loud, low & good for battery life just isn't a combo that works together, sorry.

On the other hand, leftfield thinking time....

What if you ditch (ie sell to help with costs) the Maxx4 altogether?
A 15" 2way with the 15CL76 as modelled already and a decent HF could save you needing to carry 2 cabs in the first place?
RCF ND640 (hell, maybe even the new B&C DE111 - seems too good to be true but as you're not trying to thrash out insane volumes might just be enough) on an HF94 should be able to cross over quite low, and only adds 2.4kg (or 1.6 with the DE111!) to the weight of the cab, just as an example.
I would recommend biamping that, partly because it's easier then designing a passive crossover (you can make repeated adjustments incredibly easily when it's just tweaking values on a screen) and partly because the Thomann DSP 4x4 Mini already runs off a 12V supply, saving the hassle of converting up to 240V to run most other DSP's.


Re: EQing the Maxx4, we'd need a bit more info about it to be able to give any useful advice.
Do you have a datasheet for it by any chance? I've googled and can't find one.
Failing, that, do you have any test equipment, or even the opportunity to do a small practical test please?

I'd like to know what frequency the ports are tuned to, as that will dictate how low it might be possible to apply any useful boost. Even without test equipment, you can get a feel for that by literally resting your fingers against the cone and sweeping a sine wave through it at moderate volume (just enough to feel the vibration). There will be a frequency, probably somewhere between 45 & 65Hz for a speaker like this, where the vibration is minimized, with more vibration above & below. That is the port tuning frequency.

Also, have you ever tried running the Maxx4 just on one single channel of your amp?
If so, how much poorer would you say its maximum volume was compared to when you bridge 2 channels of the amp please?

Cheers,
David.


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 10 March 2021 at 7:09pm
Bit late to the party but I use the Beyma 15G40 ( http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMA15G40-8" rel="nofollow - http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMA15G40-8 ) to run the low end of my small system in cabs about 55cm cubed (roughly).  I get a pretty usable response down to about 45Hz which is enough for small live and mobile disco jobs. I put little 3" castors on them and use them to wheel the tops around on.

I've also had good results with the Beyma 15LX60, 18Sound 15LW1401, B&C 15PS40 (older driver) and there will be options.  The old Eminence Kappa15LF was pretty good for such jobs too.

While it might be tempting to go for neo, I'm not sure it makes enough difference to the weight of the cab to make the price premium worthwhile, especially if you have to go for a lower spec driver to meet your budget.




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