(Power Question) 63a 3ph convert to 'within regs'?
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Topic: (Power Question) 63a 3ph convert to 'within regs'?
Posted By: Requiem
Subject: (Power Question) 63a 3ph convert to 'within regs'?
Date Posted: 05 April 2021 at 3:36pm
Hi guys,
Sorry its a power question rather than an audio question but hoping I can get the answer here regardless,
Been offered this 63a 3ph distro for a 'good' price but been told it doesn't meet regulations (obviously with those 13a houseplugs on - hence the good price).
Obviously I want it for festival and event work but power isn't my strong suit so my question is,
Can it be converted to meet regulations for festival use or is it useful only for the bin.
Cheers
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------------- www.requiem-soundsystem.com
Custom Martin Audio WSX, USB & CSG Soundsystem based in Bristol
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Replies:
Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 05 April 2021 at 6:36pm
I am in no way qualified to advise, but I know enough to know there are issues with that.
My first concern is that it doesn't look 'factory made', so is it wired correctly, with the correct gauge cable etc? Earth bonded, structurally sound, properly labeled. Are appropriate sized protection devices fitted to each output? Someone needs to confirm all this and that means someone who understands current regs properly getting a look at the insides.
The obvious issue with it, is the lack of RCD protection which should be present on any 'final circuit' .
The 13A sockets are definitely 'final circuits' so the MCBs protecting these could be replaced with RCBOs, you could potentially use the 16A or 32A outputs to feed downstream distros with RCDs fitted, so they don't need to be changed for that regulation (although if you were to use without down stream RCDs you would be in breach).
Regs do also require all protective devices to be the same brand within one distro so you would need to match the brand already fitted, or do them all.
Changing them all to new RCBOs is probably a good idea if you don't really "know power" and would be necessary if you may want to hang lots of LED (or other high earth leakage kit) off it.
A good next step would be to price up a set of RCBOs and see if it still seems cheap. Swaping them over, inspecting the unit and running tests on it is a few hours work, so factor in a proper sparkies hourly rate too.
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: Requiem
Date Posted: 05 April 2021 at 6:57pm
Thanks for your input!
So want to look at the insides really to get an idea of the scale of the change needed.
Is there any issue with using those household plug sockets, I had it in my head that those would be an issue on a gig.
------------- www.requiem-soundsystem.com
Custom Martin Audio WSX, USB & CSG Soundsystem based in Bristol
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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 05 April 2021 at 8:24pm
Not if properly protected, electrically and mechanically.
They obviously make it an 'indoors' only device but the rest of the construction is non 'waterproof' too.
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:39pm
It's not worth a lot given that it's effectively obsolete. As above, get it looked over by a qualified person to do the design on the upgrade to current regs.
I suspect if it was economic to do so then it would have already been done though? Depends what youre offering for it!
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Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 April 2021 at 8:27am
Switch out all the MCB’s for RCBO’s and just check the wiring.
I’ve seen a lot worse distros out there!
------------- www.wedding-production.co.uk
www.stage2sound.com
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Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 06 April 2021 at 8:33am
And while you’re at it switch them up to a higher rating than “B”, you never know when you’ll need to put an amp with a high inrush current on it or maybe even a non led strobe.
------------- blah blah blah blah blah......
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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 06 April 2021 at 11:35am
Worth considering at this point what you actually need from a distro. The way that is built up with 19" panels for the outputs it would be easy to rejig it to your requirements.
Removing all the 13A socket, or changing to just 1x32A output and 2 x 16A outputs per phase, for example, would reduce the number of RCBOs you need to buy.
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: rosssss224
Date Posted: 06 April 2021 at 1:28pm
You can also get 13a sockets with built in rcd's that meet the 18th edition
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 07 April 2021 at 12:52pm
By using it, you are "installing" it to latest version of BS7671, i.e. 18th Edition.
Any final circuit has to have RCD protection, as well as over current, so, to deal with cumulative earth leakage, RCBO for every outlet makes real sense. c. £30 each.
Without looking inside, no way of knowing if it is safe. Are their glands allowing cable out of metal distro? Is CSA big enough. Are the neons wired correctly as indicators, or do they come on in fault conditions too? Ferrules are always nice to see...
Careful with C curve. Yes, you probably should, but when you do your PFC, you must have enough "earth" to conduct at least 10x rating of a C curve breaker. So for a 16A C Curve MCB/RCBO, PFC must be greater than 160A to get disconnect in under 0.4s. With a B curve, you need more than x5 rating, i.e. PFC of 80A on a 16A B Curve.
Hit that snag when running a 16A/2.5mm SPN+E supply to a video camera in audience. Length of cable meant it only just was low enough resistance of earth loop to get over 160A PFC. Solution was to use B Curve, or upgrade to 4mm or 6mm due to voltage drop/resistance per M.
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: Sonic the hedge
Date Posted: 08 April 2021 at 10:44pm
IMO it's worth no more than the cost of the parts that are re-useable.
So basically what you are getting is a rack and some CEE connectors. For someone who knows what they are doing it could be a bargain. RCBOs and wiring are not that expensive but it's the knowledge/labour that will bump up the cost. It needs to be checked, modified as required and tested by someone who is suitably competent.
I would suggest that if you have a good 18th edition sparks available for mates rates it might be worth a shot, but get a price for getting it up to spec before making an offer. Otherwise it's probably going to be more trouble than its worth.
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 2:55am
I wouldn’t recommend getting “an 18th Edition Sparks”, I would suggest you get someone that is intimately familiar with current requirements, standard practices, etc. for events/temporary installations.
You see enough abortions in houses, etc. done by “XXth edition sparks” house-bashers without them dabbling in shit they know or understand even less about 
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Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 8:19am
RoadRunnersDust wrote:
I wouldn’t recommend getting “an 18th Edition Sparks”, I would suggest you get someone that is intimately familiar with current requirements, standard practices, etc. for events/temporary installations.
You see enough abortions in houses, etc. done by “XXth edition sparks” house-bashers without them dabbling in shit they know or understand even less about  |
This, x 100.
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Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 19 April 2021 at 9:53am
JonB67 wrote:
RoadRunnersDust wrote:
I wouldn’t recommend getting “an 18th Edition Sparks”, I would suggest you get someone that is intimately familiar with current requirements, standard practices, etc. for events/temporary installations.
You see enough abortions in houses, etc. done by “XXth edition sparks” house-bashers without them dabbling in shit they know or understand even less about  |
This, x 100. |
Yes, much as it falls under "18th" whenever you use it, or 19th when that comes along, BS7909 is really where you need to be at. However, it defers back to BS7671 quite a lot. Consider BS7909 a "Special Installation or Locations" extension as it is so "special", that Section 711 (Exhibitions, Shows and Stands) wasn't enough.
I have never yet seen a domestic XXth Qualified sparks, run anything other than 2.5mm T&E for a ring, despite factors like length and insulation meaning 4mm or maybe even 6mm required. Commercially, I see a lot of 4mm FP being run on rings, almost as a standard, as someone has actually done some calculations...
------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 1:04am
Pretty much all of above, shocking no one has posted utter twaddle yet!!!
If the price is right it looks a nice setup, you will need to replace the MCBs with RCBOs ( @ £30 a pop! https://www.google.com/search?q=crabtree+rcbo+c+curve&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB942GB942&sxsrf=ALeKk01P_T-g-FoT6Wa167Gk_AtnvIEydA:1619049245196&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizuIi5xJDwAhUtThUIHdYJAu4Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=2844&bih=1377" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.com/search?q=crabtree+rcbo+c+curve&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB942GB942&sxsrf=ALeKk01P_T-g-FoT6Wa167Gk_AtnvIEydA:1619049245196&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizuIi5xJDwAhUtThUIHdYJAu4Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=2844&bih=1377 )
to make it useful, I'd get someone with an MFT to do this and provide insulation and L-E/L-N PFC results for every outlet.
Obviously you want to see the bang times on the new RCBOs as well!
but to me it looks in no way a crapper, the earth tag shows some design so the internal are probably all correct CSA etc.
It is also not a "Chip Van" rubber distro and looks gig worthy.
I'd build something like that and provide an EIC for around £2000 so if you can get the box, RCBOs and testing/installation for a good price, go for it, worse case you need £70 in tri-rate cable and ferrules to re-wire it, but all the panel work and stuff it done and the thing is reasonably well appointed ( you could pull the panel the 13As on and add Powercon/more ceeforms if you fancied ) but it does need RCD protection and with today kit I would strongly advise against a 63A 3PNE 30/30 incommer!
------------- Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 9:19am
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
It is also not a "Chip Van" rubber distro and looks gig worthy.
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What do you consider the problem with "rubber" distros?
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 10:24am
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
I'd get someone with an MFT to do this and provide insulation and L-E/L-N PFC results for every outlet. |
How is L-E/L-N PFC measured for a portable device? if connected to a supply then the results are going to be dependent on the supplies PFC? or is it a case of measuring the supply without the distro and subtracting one from another?
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 8:26pm
PFC test are a great way to check all your Screws are tight and you have no corroded terminals.
Grab the PFC @ the input and check near to none of it clears off in the box.
Ideally use a 3pne supply (16A will do, does have to be 63A) as you can confirm phase correct reference with your polarity checks but even with a 13A > 63A 3PNE socket PFC checks really show if the thing is good to go, just variance is enough to be useful.
Obviously an MFT will do your RCBOs too and I do a little EIC for all my distros, when someone asked is it PAT (tested) you can say yes, but that isn't really relevant, but email them a complete test sheet, with circuit schedule and results, it kinda show you take stuff seriously and in 99.999% of circumstances will be the last conversation about your electrical kit! :-)
------------- Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 8:30pm
imageoven wrote:
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
It is also not a "Chip Van" rubber distro and looks gig worthy.
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What do you consider the problem with "rubber" distros?
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Nothing if you own burger vans, for gigs they are awkward (crap sticking in all direction for some of them) have stupid flaps over the breakers, usually no metering and really best not on a stage.
For outdoor stuff they aren't waterproof by any stretch so you are better off with Rack kit in a power cabin (pop up gazebo or pref an iso container to lock out the dimlo population) they are just poverty really.......
------------- Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Posted By: mk2_ginger_biscuit69
Date Posted: 22 April 2021 at 9:11pm
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
imageoven wrote:
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
It is also not a "Chip Van" rubber distro and looks gig worthy.
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What do you consider the problem with "rubber" distros?
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Nothing if you own burger vans, for gigs they are awkward (crap sticking in all direction for some of them) have stupid flaps over the breakers, usually no metering and really best not on a stage.
For outdoor stuff they aren't waterproof by any stretch so you are better off with Rack kit in a power cabin (pop up gazebo or pref an iso container to lock out the dimlo population) they are just poverty really.......
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what a load of crap. Putting non outdoor key power distro in a popup gazebo  . Rubber box distros for chipvans  .
------------- ''Remember that the object of a subwoofer is to enhance the output of your main speakers, not overpower it''
''Dubstep - an elongated electronic fart''
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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 23 April 2021 at 7:57am
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
Grab the PFC @ the input and check near to none of it clears off in the box.
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Not quite sure what you're saying there?
Do you mean measuring at the supply without the distro' and then at each outlet and subtracting one from another?
------------- Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.
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Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 23 April 2021 at 8:34pm
mk2_ginger_biscuit69 wrote:
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
imageoven wrote:
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
It is also not a "Chip Van" rubber distro and looks gig worthy.
|
What do you consider the problem with "rubber" distros?
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Nothing if you own burger vans, for gigs they are awkward (crap sticking in all direction for some of them) have stupid flaps over the breakers, usually no metering and really best not on a stage.
For outdoor stuff they aren't waterproof by any stretch so you are better off with Rack kit in a power cabin (pop up gazebo or pref an iso container to lock out the dimlo population) they are just poverty really.......
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what a load of crap. Putting non outdoor key power distro in a popup gazebo  . Rubber box distros for chipvans  .
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"Outdoor Distro" all leaks and nuisance trips.
Proper kit in a dry space is better, end of!
And whilst I don't use gayzeebos I would sooner be seen with one of those than a chip van distro....!
------------- Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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Posted By: Boxes-R-Blue
Date Posted: 23 April 2021 at 8:42pm
imageoven wrote:
Boxes-R-Blue wrote:
Grab the PFC @ the input and check near to none of it clears off in the box.
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Not quite sure what you're saying there?
Do you mean measuring at the supply without the distro' and then at each outlet and subtracting one from another?
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Grab PFC = measure PFC @ input six times (L1 P-N, P-E, L2 P-N, P-E, etc) then make the same tests on every output.
If 1 is on L1 and L1 give 1600A L-N and 1350A L-E given 3-400mm of cable you wouldn't want to see less than 95% of that @ output and you would def want to see the L-N <> L-E ratio as near the same (or better as most supplies have a lower earth (CPC as I think it may be now to hipsters) conductor size than L & N and distro are wires in Tri-rate with the same CSA for L, N & E) again numbers are academic (unless you find no earth on the supply (more common than you may think!) as you can still check you kit is passing all the nice electrons thru.....
------------- Kinda Been there, Kinda done that, YOU COULDN'T handle my bar bill!
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