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48v PV/Lithium system - Build in progress

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=106352
Printed Date: 21 September 2021 at 8:46pm
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Topic: 48v PV/Lithium system - Build in progress
Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Subject: 48v PV/Lithium system - Build in progress
Date Posted: 20 June 2021 at 2:38pm
Hi folks, I'm in the process of putting together an inverter + battery system. Theres not loads of sun in the north of England so the PV won't be the main source, the idea is that instead of putting in a 20Kva set and running at 10-20% most of the time, we can have a 4-6Kva LPG and the battery system provides peak load when required. It will also keep the batts topped up as required.

On single day gigs we should be able to run all day just from the batts and recharge from hard power on a renewables contract once finished.

To start with we'll only have one solar bank and one battery bank but will put in all the connections to expand as funds allow. Batts, Inverter and MPPT will be linked with the CAN bus so they can talk to each other.

Breaker sizes are a rough guess and only placed as makes sense to me but if anything is amiss please let me know. I can only afford to do this once!




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Replies:
Posted By: KaphaSound
Date Posted: 20 June 2021 at 2:53pm
Don’t have helpful advice but I think generally speaking this sounds like a great project. Always wondered how feasible a solar setup would be for a proper rig


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 20 June 2021 at 5:17pm
You don't seem to have a centralised system for controlling everything together (solar, generator, batteries, inverter) to control/limit currents and properly charge the batteries. This system (with a generator) is very similar to off-grid or boat systems, which I've been looking at a lot recently because I'm getting an electric narrowboat built.

For batteries you might be better off with as many BYD Premium LVL 15.4 as you need, these are better quality than Pylontech, have a 10 year guarantee, each one can provide 250A (so you only need 1), and you can easily parallel as many as you want. The most popular kit for connecting everything up (including generator) and providing mains is Victron, maybe a Multiplus II 48/10000 plus MPPT controller and Cerbo GX/Touch 50. Much more common and better supported than Studer.

Try these guys, they sell everything you'll need and actually started out as a provider of solar powered kit for festivals...

https://www.bimblesolar.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.bimblesolar.com/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 20 June 2021 at 5:44pm
I’ve spoken to the folks at Bimble and they’ve been helpful however they have tried to sell me a full Victron system but I’ve got a good deal on the Studer stuff so that’s what I’ve got. I have one off the RCC-03 panels to manage everything and both the MPPT and inverter will talk to the batts via the CAN bus and provide current and voltage control of charging as far as I gather. I haven’t brought the batts yet and BYD have been mentioned elsewhere so I’ll investigate that. Cheers.

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Posted By: billso
Date Posted: 20 June 2021 at 11:33pm
Just to add the breakers after the panels and after the mppt are unnecessary and wil cause more problems than they will solve.Keep it simple.


Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 21 June 2021 at 5:01am
Funnily enuff we've just placed our order for upgrading our solar trailer to LiPo. Pylontechs with Victron 48/5000 with Cerbo GX talking to our Midnite Solar Classic.As Billso said you only need breakers for the inverter and maybe one on each panel string before the isolator.
Will let you know how it works out when it all gets fitted !

.p.

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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 21 June 2021 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Phil B Phil B wrote:

Funnily enuff we've just placed our order for upgrading our solar trailer to LiPo. Pylontechs with Victron 48/5000 with Cerbo GX talking to our Midnite Solar Classic.As Billso said you only need breakers for the inverter and maybe one on each panel string before the isolator.
Will let you know how it works out when it all gets fitted !

.p.

Cool, what Pylontechs are you getting? the 3.5ks or 2.4ks? It looks like there are none in the country and I need this for a gig in July so I might go down the BYD route...

Quite a steep learning curve this and I've throughly thrown myself in at the deep end!

Standard....Big smile


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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 21 June 2021 at 12:26pm
I'm in Melbourne so might be a bit different supplies from the Uk !

We are getting 3 x 3.55 Pylontech to start with and then going to expand when funds allow, and as we are moving up to 48v from our current 24v setup means we don't have to worry about cable sizing !

We have DC breakers on our panel strings and then DC fuse on the inverter / batt bank. All our inverter outs are RCBO ( 1 x 32a , 2 x 10a) .

.p.

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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 21 June 2021 at 1:16pm
Are the ones you're getting the US3000 or the US3000C? From what I gather the differences are the discharge ability to 95% instead of 90% and that you can stick more in a bank with the C version.

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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 22 June 2021 at 3:44am
We have the 3000c 's

Our new toys arrived this morning !!




.p.

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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: carlosdelondres
Date Posted: 07 July 2021 at 1:52pm
This is a great setup. I have Studer XTH 8000's in our electric barge, they are a cut above Victron imo.
Worth noting that you don't need to stick to 48Vnom with the Xtender, they are OK up to 68V input. I just built a 1200Ah 17S 60p battery for the barge, ~75kWh at 69.4V fully charged. Absolutely loving the lithium, replaced 930AH 48V FLA and it is night and day. For some reason the rotation is wonky on the image, but pics below...





Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 14 July 2021 at 11:54pm
So I got my new toys.....

Went to Coventry to pick up what I thought were Pylontech US3000 and they were sent the wrong type so I got the newer C version for the price of the older one! 13.5 kwh of batteries... wow...

Only 1kw of solar so far, MPPT can take 3kw so I'll get some more panels when I can, maxed out my spends pretty swiftly, fingers crossed I can get it all going by the 24th!





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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 15 July 2021 at 6:54am
Nice ! Beware the cost of the Radsok connectors needed to go on the Pylontechs. Just realised we will need a few to reach the batts in the trailer !

.p.



-------------
Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 15 July 2021 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Phil B Phil B wrote:

We have the 3000c 's

Our new toys arrived this morning !!




.p.

I picked up the spacer brackets that fit between them but it looks like they aren't for when you rack mount, are you planning on putting a 1u space between them in the rack? I'd rather not but can't find any info as to whether they need space for cooling...


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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 16 July 2021 at 9:09am
Haven't worked out how we are going to mount them in the trailer yet, provisional idea is 2 next to each other on each side of the trailer. Plan was to empty the trailer this weekend and start measuring up...BUT of course we are in our 5th lockdown and at home....sigh.

Not sure about the air gap, and like you I couldn't find anything about it but we are a bit concerned about mounting in a rattly trailer ! So it's probably gonna be some kind of suspended rack frame for each unit.

.p.

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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 21 July 2021 at 8:32pm

Nearly done! 





I would have done it a little different if I'd realised how inflexible 70mm cable is. tbh i should have known, it just didn't occur...Confused 

I've still got to wire in the lines from the panel mount MC4 connectors to the fuses and then we're good to go. I've got three 330w panels so far and hopefully should be able to pick up another 6 once its earning money. I'm really pleased with how plug and play the Studer has been. On the surface, its VERY complicated but with it linked to the Studer MPPT, the RCC control, the CAN BUS convertor and the battery it all just seems to talk happily amongst itself. 

The batteries came 50% charged so I set that up and you can easily limit the input current so it can take into account different inputs from a single 13a plug (i limited that at 8A and it got warm!) to a small genny or a full 32/1. 

I had it charging at 8A as I said and put two 650w lights on the other end and it dropped the charge current automatically and diverted power where it was needed. I assume this will work the other way if we're using a 5KVA genny and need a bit more every now and then, this will come from the batteries. This means we can spec smaller gennies and run them more efficiently or if solar is enough just charge from that.

I have eve energy home automation switches with power metering on them that I'll put one on the stack to monitor power draw during live acts and the dj sets and I'll have another for the all the backline so I can see what that draws separately. The idea is to build up a database of average consumptions for a variety of scenarios and spec to that  rather than just peak draw.


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Posted By: imageoven
Date Posted: 21 July 2021 at 10:11pm
Looking good.

I'm interested in the capability without the generator and assuming poor solar performance. 

How long (ballpark) to recharge from a 13a supply?
Could you potentially finish a festival stage gig one night, drive the batteries home to recharge and return to the festival the next day?

Good luck with the gig.


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Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 22 July 2021 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by imageoven imageoven wrote:

Looking good.

I'm interested in the capability without the generator and assuming poor solar performance. 

How long (ballpark) to recharge from a 13a supply?
Could you potentially finish a festival stage gig one night, drive the batteries home to recharge and return to the festival the next day?

Good luck with the gig.

I'm also trying to set it up on the assumption that there will be no sunshine and that anything gained from the panels is a bonus as its just not reliable enough. Regarding charging overnight, I have 13.5kwh  of battery, if they were discharged to 90-95% I'd say you'd probably need a 32/1 installed at home to get a guarantee that they'd be back up to spec (if you're leaving site at midnight and returning at 9 am thats not long by the time you got home and plugged it in)

However, the other part of this system is about better generator loading. We all spec max power from generators and for good reason but then we run them at really low load most of the time especially overnight so they run REALLY inefficiently. If you chuck the battery bank on one of these sets thats just powering the overnight cabins you'll be making good use of an engine burning through diesel for not much reason. Also, if you take it home, you'd batter have a pure renewables contract!


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Posted By: billso
Date Posted: 23 July 2021 at 1:53pm
Monkeypuzzle that looks ace will try and come and have listen one day.Philb. what's the point of the breakers on the solar panels ? .can't work it out.


Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 24 July 2021 at 10:10am
Originally posted by billso billso wrote:

Monkeypuzzle that looks ace will try and come and have listen one day.Philb. what's the point of the breakers on the solar panels ? .can't work it out.


Short circuit protection mainly for each panel string...don't want to fry our Midnite Solar controller ? The fold down panels on the side of the trailer get plugged in and out after transport and sometimes peeps forget to switch the panels off and plug / unplug them in direct sun..!

.p.

-------------
Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: monkeypuzzle
Date Posted: 25 July 2021 at 3:23pm
Gig!



The inverter + 4 x Pylontech US3000C batteries powering:

4 x Turner A500 - 8 x Tham 15
2 x Turner B502 - 4 x Custom 15 mid
2 x Turner B302 - 4 x 2" RCF comps

2 x Outline Tnine - Mons (current limited)
1 x  K10 - Mons (current limited)
Bass and a few guitar amps
DJ kit
FOH desk

Highest I saw the output meter going was just above 2kva but the level all on, no signal was about 1kva.

We ran the system from 12 noon until 8 pm and were still at 33% left when we finished the gig.



I've only got 3 x 330w panels so far and hope to get 6 more. The day was pretty overcast but they were on average putting about 200-250w into the system although when the sun did come through it hit 900+ watts. The system has an SD card on it and logs the use so when I get it out of the van I'll look through that and check the peaks. That goes for the inverter as well so I can do a post mortem on power use.

I've got a load of old and unuseable Slick truss so I reckon I'll build some kind of frame that I can easily rotate as the sun moves.



Some folks having a great old time! It was a struggle to convince people that it could and would go ahead but given the last year and a half we've had I'm not surprised we had over 400 folks dancing to some of Manchesters best bands and rinsed out the jungle at the end!

It was the first time I've had the whole system out as a full unit and it performed really well and I'm more than happy with the battery system. It does need a trailer of its own as even with the lithium batts, its pretty heavy and the idea of packing 9 panels in the back of a van full of rig is just a bad idea....


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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 11 August 2021 at 1:04am
Looking good Mr Monkey. Like you we are looking at a frame for some ground mounted extra solar panels that can follow the sun. Been toying with the idea of motorised jockey wheels to do it automatically !
Finally got a start on our new gear...only to have Lockdown #6 thrown at us ...sigh.
I did manage to get most things wired up, fired it all up once and the batt extension cables to Radsok connectors made up, Rich mounted the Victron Multi to a new frame and is making up some wooden sleeves for the Pylontechs to live hanging vertically side my side ... a work in progress



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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: madboffin
Date Posted: 11 August 2021 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by monkeypuzzle monkeypuzzle wrote:

4 x Turner A500 - 8 x Tham 15
2 x Turner B502 - 4 x Custom 15 mid
2 x Turner B302 - 4 x 2" RCF comps


mmm, vintage Turners, lovely things!



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