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which multi-channel amp for subs

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Topic: which multi-channel amp for subs
Posted By: Line Array
Subject: which multi-channel amp for subs
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 10:58am
i want to run at least 4 but maybe as many as 8 DIY suboofers using this driver:

https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/lf-driver/21-0/4/21ntlw5000-4

i haven't purchased the drivers yet but most likely this is the one ...

this is for an audiophile type home system for electronic dance music in a semi-open space ( open plan concept house ) 

i mention "audiophile" because i want to tune the subs to about 18 hz ( instead of manufacturer recommended 33 hz ) and run them at a lower power to get clean deep bass instead of just loud bass ... that means i won't need even half of the rated power of the subs ...

i am thinking 8 channel amp with about 1KW per channel is what i need ...

the idea is each sub gets its own amp channel and DSP that way i can tune out the room modes using MSO ( multi sub optimizer ) software which develops individual EQ settings for every sub location for most even in-room bass coverage ...

actually i was thinking 8 channel amp with 6 channels driving 6 subs and 2 more channels driving woofers ( 80 hz - 250 hz ) and frequencies above that will be handled by lower power amps like QSC PLX and QSC CX ...

i read here that multi-channel amps don't do well when all channels drive subs and i can understand why ...

but also not really keen on having like 8 X Crown XLS amps taking up an entire closet ...

i also think if i can do basic DSP ( like crossover, delay, EQ and limiter ) in the amp it could really simplify the setup further versus having a mess of cables ... also i would really love to have AES inputs and 24 bit / 96 khz for cleaner signal path ( yea i know, makes no difference for subs )

as far as i understand Powersoft is best for subs, i was thinking Ottocanali ( ouch $$$ ) but also that the new kid on the block ( Linea Research ) can deliver similar performance for less $$$

i was told Crown is not good for bass ... nobody explained why

i'm super broke i want the cheapest gear possible but i will never buy anything that isn't good - i would rather have nothing at all.  

basically as i see it buying cheap trash is more expensive than buying quality so if i can't afford quality then i definitely can't afford trash 

i previously tried to look for quiet amps but at this point i think i will just build a soundproof closet for them so just need a good multi-channel subwoofer amp with not too much power per channel as i am not looking to drive subs into distortion ...

how would you approach this situation ?  what would you get ? 

thanks in advance !



Replies:
Posted By: Andylaser
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 3:09pm
Why do you think you need 8 x 18" subs in a house?

I have 2 x 15" subs and can rattle ornaments on the mantle piece in the house next door but one if I want to. However, I prefer to use a low powered high quality amp and get a little more speed and dynamics over sheer output.


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"music so loud, that if we move in next door to you; your lawn will die" - Lemmy


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 3:59pm
yeah i don't understand how 8 x 21" subs in a house is ok but a rack of amps takes up a lot of space..


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:






i'm super broke i want the cheapest gear possible would rather have nothing at all.





if ur broke why u chattin about 21's ? Confused


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Andylaser Andylaser wrote:

Why do you think you need 8 x 18" subs in a house?



Someone looking to move into an empty/embargoed property in Billionaires Row?  

LOL LOL LOL




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 6:24pm
Yet another stupid question from yet another penniless dreamer with nothing better to do than waste members time on here!!!!!!!


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 19 March 2022 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Robbo Robbo wrote:

Yet another stupid question from yet another penniless dreamer with nothing better to do than waste members time on here!!!!!!!

Clap


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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 12:23am
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

i am thinking 8 channel amp with about 1KW per channel is what i need ...

I don't know about finding a high power 8ch but a pair of these might just get it done...  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32980668849.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.75741f40RI16vS&algo_pvid=2a445f26-950e-4267-98e6-9559496038ce&algo_exp_id=2a445f26-950e-4267-98e6-9559496038ce-20&pdp_ext_f=%7Bsku_id%3A66772130062%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B792.9%3B-1%3B95.12%40salePrice%3BCAD%3Bsearch-mainSearch" rel="nofollow - 4 Channel 750 Watts at 8ohm Class D 1U Professional Power Amplifier DJ Subwoofer Poweramp PA Stage Prokustk M50D|Stage Audio| - AliExpress
Add a DSP and you're still at just 3U rack space but you will need a rather beefy 230v supply for it.


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

I don't know about finding a high power 8ch but a pair of these might just get it done...  - 4 Channel 750 Watts at 8ohm Class D 1U Professional Power Amplifier DJ Subwoofer Poweramp PA Stage Prokustk M50D|Stage Audio| - AliExpress
Add a DSP and you're still at just 3U rack space but you will need a rather beefy 230v supply for it.

that link to AliExpress doesn't go anywhere not that it matters as i think i was pretty clear i'm not looking to pick up Chinese scrap metal ...

were you trying to link to one of those Sinbosen FP20000 units that everybody uses at AVS ?



Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

yeah i don't understand how 8 x 21" subs in a house is ok but a rack of amps takes up a lot of space..

well it wouldn't be the end of the world i mean i need a rack anyway - the difference is you can't do the job of 8 subs with one but you CAN do the job of 8 amps with one ...

does it make sense to do it ?  i don't know that's why i'm asking ...

i'm looking to invest into quality, flexible tools ( amps ) not simply meet the power demands of the subs ... otherwise i would get one of those Sinbosens that do like 10,000 watts for $900 but sound like vacuum cleaner and last about 3 weeks ...


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Andylaser Andylaser wrote:

Why do you think you need 8 x 18" subs in a house?

I have 2 x 15" subs and can rattle ornaments on the mantle piece in the house next door but one if I want to. However, I prefer to use a low powered high quality amp and get a little more speed and dynamics over sheer output.

i'm on a 2 week ban from AVS and over there you're not cool unless you run at least 8 subs in your home theater and unless the subs are TC Sounds LMS Ultra they should be at least 21" ...

granted they run their subs in basement home theaters and they probably have gigantic lots with the next house half a mile away ... 

by contrast i would be running the subs on 1st floor with just 11 feet between me and the next house ... i did some testing with my single TC Sounds LMS Ultra and surprisingly the house contains bass pretty well - i can actually hear more midrange through the wall than bass !  and over the wind gusts i couldn't hear anything at all.

are you sure you're not making that stuff up about your dual 15" subs having serious output ?  i don't even know any serious 15" subwoofer drivers, except maybe some Car Audio units.

anyway my neighbor is like always in Florida ...

frankly everybody here in NJ is always in Florida ... i don't know how Florida can accommodate all the people from NJ ...


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Robbo Robbo wrote:

Yet another stupid question from yet another penniless dreamer with nothing better to do than waste members time on here!!!!!!!

what exactly is stupid about the question ?

you don't agree with my goals - i don't agree with yours.

i guess that makes you an idiot - right ?

or did you wait like a slave until others voiced their opinions so you could mirror them and get a pat on the back from fellow sheep for being a good boy who never thinks for himself and only can voice the sentiment you pick up from others  ?

yeah i thought so.


Posted By: Andylaser
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:


i'm on a 2 week ban from AVS and over there you're not cool unless you run at least 8 subs in your home theater and unless the subs are TC Sounds LMS Ultra they should be at least 21" ...


So it appears you are tyrying to "be cool" and keep up with the neighbours rather that trying to get good sound.


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"music so loud, that if we move in next door to you; your lawn will die" - Lemmy


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

Originally posted by Robbo Robbo wrote:

Yet another stupid question from yet another penniless dreamer with nothing better to do than waste members time on here!!!!!!!

what exactly is stupid about the question ?

you don't agree with my goals - i don't agree with yours.

i guess that makes you an idiot - right ?

or did you wait like a slave until others voiced their opinions so you could mirror them and get a pat on the back from fellow sheep for being a good boy who never thinks for himself and only can voice the sentiment you pick up from others  ?

yeah i thought so.


LOL, you obviously don’t have a clue….. and you have no idea who you have just called an idiot!!

Robbo is most certainly no idiot or a sheep.



Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 2:43pm
Anyone who needs one 21” subwoofer let alone 8 in a house clearly can not design, build or tune a worthwhile subwoofer. End.

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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

that link to AliExpress doesn't go anywhere not that it matters as i think i was pretty clear i'm not looking to pick up Chinese scrap metal ...
The link works perfectly for me, must be something on your end. 
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

were you trying to link to one of those Sinbosen FP20000 units that everybody uses at AVS ?
It was something similar but I don't know if it matters. You're all over the map, you say you don't want cheap junk but then mention Crown XLS which are the cheap chinese junk you're trying to avoid. You want Powersoft or Lab Gruppen but you're "broke and want the cheapest gear possible", but then turn up your nose at the chinese stuff. The caribbean island crews have been flogging some of these big chinese amps for years now and they have gained in popularity because of the performance delivered. 
In a brand name amplifier the most affordable option may be these...  https://www.powersoft.com/en/products/touring-amps/t-series/t604" rel="nofollow - T604 - Powersoft  yeah still not exactly cheap but there is no middle ground in the high power multi channel amplifier market.. in case you hadn't noticed. 


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 5:08pm
Get an Alexa.

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: FOO
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 6:00pm
If you want deep bass, and dont need oodless of SPL, get some old JBL TCB subs. Dual 18“ bandpass in a massive box. They go low! And can be found really cheap :)


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 7:09pm
Line array, if you're serious i suggest you state your budget, music type, a detailed description of the space and ask the people here to suggest a solution for you. 

Just throwing your own ideas out and trying to get people to pull them together wont yield useful results in the same way. 


Posted By: Andylaser
Date Posted: 20 March 2022 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by FOO FOO wrote:

If you want deep bass, and dont need oodless of SPL, get some old JBL TCB subs. Dual 18“ bandpass in a massive box. They go low! And can be found really cheap :)


An excellent choice. I remember JBL providing a Sound Power system for a Ministry Of Sound club tour back in the late 90s. Made the news here as during a sound check, they managed to blow the windows out one of the venues.  Smile


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"music so loud, that if we move in next door to you; your lawn will die" - Lemmy


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 12:33am
Just go into a US hifi shop and ask for a "Mugs Eyeful". I'm confident that someone will point you in the right direction. Oh, and I almost forgot. You'll definitely be needing the TK-421 upgrade to boost the bass by atleast 3 or 4 quads per channel.


Posted By: James Tengo
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 5:31am
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:


i'm on a 2 week ban from AVS

I can’t imagine why…..


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 8:57am
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Anyone who needs one 21” subwoofer let alone 8 in a house clearly can not design, build or tune a worthwhile subwoofer. End.


Hard disagree. It’s not about the output level from the single box, it’s about decorrelation to provide far more consistent tone and level across the listening area.

https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/51379" rel="nofollow - https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/51379
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13041


Unless you're arguing that folks like Earl Geddes don't know how to make a subwoofer?


Yet another example of why this forum is so damn stagnant, dealing with the same old cycles of the same questions.

To the OP: head over to diyAudio. Plenty of folk experienced with MSO and the like there.


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

It was something similar but I don't know if it matters. You're all over the map, you say you don't want cheap junk but then mention Crown XLS which are the cheap chinese junk you're trying to avoid. You want Powersoft or Lab Gruppen but you're "broke and want the cheapest gear possible", but then turn up your nose at the chinese stuff. The caribbean island crews have been flogging some of these big chinese amps for years now and they have gained in popularity because of the performance delivered. 
In a brand name amplifier the most affordable option may be these...  https://www.powersoft.com/en/products/touring-amps/t-series/t604 - T604 - Powersoft yeah still not exactly cheap but there is no middle ground in the high power multi channel amplifier market.. in case you hadn't noticed. 

first of all thank you for not being a Troll and actually trying to answer the question.

you say Crown XLS is cheap Chinese junk ... i can see how an amp that only weighs 10 lbs and has RCA inputs and "DSP" that misses basic functions like subsonic filter or delay can be considered cheap junk ...

but they're some of the quietest amps ( in terms of fan noise ) on the market and unlike the Sinbosen stuff you can buy them from a reputable store, send them back if you don't like them and even ( GASP ! ) get warranty service if they need it.  

even though everybody on AVS runs those sinbosens and they break left and right i have yet to hear of ONE case of Sinbosen fixing anything under warranty.  it's always "i tried to contact Sinbosen and not much luck" ...  on other had they also all run XLS and i have yet to hear of even one XLS breaking at all nor have i ever heard of Crown not honoring warranty on their amps.

what do you mean by Caribbean Island crews ?  are those guys extra good at soldering or something ?  what makes them like these Chinese amps if nobody uses them here in US professionally ?

also the FP20000 is supposedly class TD which isn't the ideal type of amp for subs ... can you post a link to some other website with the same amp ?  maybe eBay ?

as for Powersoft T Series ... you will accuse me of flip flopping again because i said i don't want to waste an entire rack on subwoofer amps but actually i don't want single rack unit amps either ... i just don't like how they use all these weird fans and then they only pull the air over the heatsink instead of the entire amp because they used all the space in the back on the XLR plugs and only had room left for a tiny exhaust hole ...

i really like how military / industrial the ottocanali looks inside:

https://youtu.be/VCAOWEtj2TQ

it looks like it was pulled form some kind of Soviet Space Station while the 1RU powersofts look so pretty inside you can't take them very seriously ... they almost look like the Chinese fakes that paint aluminum to look like copper to beautify the amp on the inside and then decorate it with extra fans that do nothing except make noise ...

basically what are considered go to subwoofer amps for EDM ?  i guess you already answered with that Powersoft T series but what if we limit the options to 2RU amps ?



Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 11:44am
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Line array, if you're serious i suggest you state your budget, music type, a detailed description of the space and ask the people here to suggest a solution for you. 

Just throwing your own ideas out and trying to get people to pull them together wont yield useful results in the same way. 

Space: roughly 25 X 30 feet and roughly 15 feet ceiling ( sloped ) with one wall that has about 150 square feet worth of opening.

music type:

https://youtu.be/oiPFtqmb_Q4

all speakers and subs will be designed and built by me.

worst case scenario i may get JBL or RCF tops and only DIY the subs.


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 11:44am
"basically what are considered go to subwoofer amps for EDM ?"

You can't beat a Crest 10001! Go forever. And no problem driving into 2 ohm.  Perfect for your 8 subs.  Smile




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 11:47am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Anyone who needs one 21” subwoofer let alone 8 in a house clearly can not design, build or tune a worthwhile subwoofer. End.


Hard disagree. It’s not about the output level from the single box, it’s about decorrelation to provide far more consistent tone and level across the listening area.

https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/51379 - https://smartech.gatech.edu/handle/1853/51379
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13041


Unless you're arguing that folks like Earl Geddes don't know how to make a subwoofer?


Yet another example of why this forum is so damn stagnant, dealing with the same old cycles of the same questions.

To the OP: head over to diyAudio. Plenty of folk experienced with MSO and the like there.

thank you fren !

unfortunately i'm already banned at diyAudio

this forum was recommended to me on prosoundweb where i am not banned yet but they keep deleting all my threads because they say i can only talk about professional use and not home use ...

i may come back to diyAudio for the third time after i study enough new material to disguise myself so they can't recognize me ...

none of them recognized me when i came back last time but i have been away for almost 15 years so that was easy ... however to come back after only a few months i would need to completely reinvent myself ...


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 11:57am
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"basically what are considered go to subwoofer amps for EDM ?"

You can't beat a Crest 10001! Go forever. And no problem driving into 2 ohm.  Perfect for your 8 subs.  Smile


i said an amplifier not strongman training equipment LOL


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

"basically what are considered go to subwoofer amps for EDM ?"

You can't beat a Crest 10001! Go forever. And no problem driving into 2 ohm.  Perfect for your 8 subs.  Smile


i said an amplifier not strongman training equipment LOL



For home use, how often will you need to move it around? And dual purpose equipment is all the rage these days!   LOL LOL LOL




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

[QUOTE=Line Array][QUOTE=Earplug]
For home use, how often will you need to move it around? And dual purpose equipment is all the rage these days!   LOL LOL LOL

ok well to further clarify then i'm looking for amps that are:

 - class D
 - SMPS
 - 2RU
 - 4 channels or more

ideally about 8 X 1000W in about a 20" deep, 30lbs chassis or so.

MUST BE ABLE TO RUN SUBS ON ALL CHANNELS AT THE SAME TIME

the Ottocanali meets most of my requirements but it's kinda pricey and i'm not sure it can actually run subs on all 8 channels at the same time - can it ?


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

you say Crown XLS is cheap Chinese junk ... i can see how an amp that only weighs 10 lbs and has RCA inputs and "DSP" that misses basic functions like subsonic filter or delay can be considered cheap junk ...

but they're some of the quietest amps ( in terms of fan noise ) on the market and unlike the Sinbosen stuff you can buy them from a reputable store, send them back if you don't like them and even ( GASP ! ) get warranty service if they need it. 
Yep that is a good point and the lack of after sales support is probably the #1 complaint about the direct from china gear. The reason there is no after sales support in many cases is because all those sellers on AliExpress are actually just resellers.. they aren't the manufacturer so they don't have any parts. The manufactuer(whoever they are this week) builds the product in batches and uses up whatever parts they have for it so they don't have any spares either, so the consumer is really buying a disposable product.. you get what you get out of it and that is it. Sad but that isn't any different than most other consumer electronics these days, if your brand name flat screen TV dies under warranty it doesn't get repaired it gets replaced. 

Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

as for Powersoft T Series ... you will accuse me of flip flopping again because i said i don't want to waste an entire rack on subwoofer amps but actually i don't want single rack unit amps either ... i just don't like how they use all these weird fans and then they only pull the air over the heatsink instead of the entire amp because they used all the space in the back on the XLR plugs and only had room left for a tiny exhaust hole 

i really like how military / industrial the ottocanali looks inside:

https://youtu.be/VCAOWEtj2TQ%5b" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/VCAOWEtj2TQ 
Yep it's built like a piece of industrial communications equipment.. something I have seen a lot of  having worked for 20yrs in manufacturing and R&D for one of north americas biggest telecommunications companies.
Class D is very electrically efficient.. that is why those amplifiers don't need as much fan cooling, but I agreee the 1U form factor is an unnecessary compromise for an installation where less fan noise is preferred. I don't know what to suggest, separate power amplifiers are becoming extinct in pro audio as most production has shifted to powered speakers, there are still some 2-ch versions abailable at the budget end of the spectrum but all the touring grade amps are big $$ to buy new and there is no middle ground.. unless you look at buying used. 


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 1:49pm
"ok well to further clarify then i'm looking for amps that are:

 - class D"

Do Audiophiles even acquiesce to the use of Class D? I thought that it's all Class A, or at a pinch AB. And far better if it's valve. Maybe that's why you've been banned. Thankfully we're far more open minded here!   LOL





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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 2:06pm
The Ottocanali is a 2U amp, and the DSP+D model has all the processing chops to do everything you’d need. That includes a dedicated 'install' software option in Armonia Plus, with remote control of presets, levels and the like via wall panel or custom tablet/phone app, if you want.

As for output power, the current demand in a domestic environment should be low - especially with a properly configured multi-sub setup. There's a bunch of output power options in the same chassis, and plenty of home (and pro) cinemas that use those models.

They have smart rails management and transparent multi-stage limiting as well. Once configured correctly, it should be as 'set and forget' as can be.


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 21 March 2022 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Sad but that isn't any different than most other consumer electronics these days, if your brand name flat screen TV dies under warranty it doesn't get repaired it gets replaced.

all TVs get a 5 year warranty from Costco.  i used my Samsung for a month then called Costco and they sent me $300 price adjustment because the TV went down in price.  i then used it for another month and returned it to Costco for full refund.  Costco came out and picked it up themselves and they refunded every penny including delivery and installation.  The TV had a minor issue that they never bothered to verify was even there - they just took it back no questions asked.  the Samsung model before mine ( previous year ) was found problematic so Samsung bought them back from customers and replaced them with a new model for free.  I have read about people replacing their Samsung TV from Costco FIVE TIMES because they were not happy with the picture.  all at no cost.

try that with Sinbosen ...

when manufacturer and seller stand behind the product like that they have a very strong incentive to design the product in such a way that you will be happy enough with it to keep it ...

and vice versa ...

Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

separate power amplifiers are becoming extinct in pro audio as most production has shifted to powered speakers, there are still some 2-ch versions abailable at the budget end of the spectrum but all the touring grade amps are big $$ to buy new and there is no middle ground.. unless you look at buying used. 

yes PA speakers for mobile DJs are going self-powered

there was a point where JBL Arrays went self-powered as well but it seems that direction was abandoned and now they all require external amplification and DSP ...

basically separate amps are alive and well for touring and install applications just not for mobile PA applications like Proms, Weddings etc.

i guess their logic is people are morons so if you build the amp into the speaker and include undefeatable filters and limiters you potentially save the speaker from these dumb animals.

on other hand in full-on PRO sound people are professionals and can actually be trusted to set up equipment correctly.  but equipment for professionals comes at a different price point.

and then there is XLS ... it's a separate amp from a major manufacturer and it's clearly not designed for professionals.  maybe they keep the power low on purpose so you can't blow up any speakers with it.  all the comments i read about it on AVS are the same - quiet, reliable ... not enough power.

anyway i'm out to sleep.  TTYL.



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