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Ultra compact mid/high

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107003
Printed Date: 17 August 2022 at 5:46pm
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Topic: Ultra compact mid/high
Posted By: KWB75
Subject: Ultra compact mid/high
Date Posted: 09 April 2022 at 1:42pm
After some suggestions for a very compact mid/high/full range to pole mount above a 12” sub - this is for house party/background music so looking for sound quality over spl.

Thinking along the lines of a 6.5” + comp or tweeter, the original top for the sub was a 6 x 3”, but I’m not so keen on building similar.

Happy to build or buy used, budget is c£150

Thanks!



Replies:
Posted By: APC321
Date Posted: 10 April 2022 at 11:46am
For the best sound quality close up I have always favoured coaxial drivers.

A very compact solution too.

I think that you can definitely hear the advantages of "point-sourceness" of this type of driver up to maybe 3m away, so would be good for a house party.

Especially as you are using a separate sub, so lower frequencies are not modulating the hf.

Maybe something along the lines of a CVA One Voice OV8 or Tannoy I8, or something a bit smaller based around a 6.5" driver as you say.

With a budget of £150 and a bit of hunting around you might find something on the secondhand market, generally where the seller is offering local pick-up only, as that is where there bargains are to be had.



Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 10 April 2022 at 12:01pm
Keep your eyes on Ebay for some of the Martin Audio EM Series of cabinets---They come up regular and the smaller models very often go quite cheap as they are install series in green colour---a quick coat of black paint and stick a Top Hat in the bottom and you are sorted----and they also sound quite nice as well.


Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 10 April 2022 at 5:14pm
Last year I built a box with 2 x Faital Pro 6FE100s in. I used a large format piezzo driver simply to try it and was very impressed with the results........ ended up leaving the piezzo where it was.

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If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 9:32am
Thanks all - think I’m going to go down the DIY route…

I had a look through some old posts on here - is the BMS 4524 still regarded as the best budget compression driver? Also, would this be overkill on the HF if paired with a 6.5” LF driver?

Thanks!


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 9:47am
Forgot to mention, I haven’t ruled out the coaxial route, any suggestions for nice sounding small coax?

The Oberton 8CX is only £100 at the moment, anyone have experience of that driver?

Thanks again!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 10:12am
https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/cx2201/" rel="nofollow - https://voltloudspeakers.co.uk/loudspeakers/cx2201/

If you favour sound quality, then these are a great option. Cheaper than you'd think too. Blue Aran used to sell them, but it seems they may have changed distributors. You can always call Volt directly to be pointed in the right direction.

Make sure you use a grille to protect the soft dome from prying fingers if they're going to be near people at a house party. Ideally, you want a relatively fine/open mesh and foam to avoid impact on the HF extension.


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 12:40pm
Yeah, I do like the sound of the volt - heard some good things about it. Might be just above budget, but I guess I need to factor in that it comes with a decent crossover too.

Whilst not in the same league as the volt, I’m half tempted to give the Lavoce CSF061.21 a whirl for <£30.




Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 1:10pm
I have raved about the VOLTs many times on here.

20 litre cab, 68mm vent 125mm long, will give flat response to 57Hz, -3dB point of 50Hz.

You might decide you don't even need a sub.


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If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 3:37pm
fane sovereign 12-250tc is another cheap option. there's a long thread about them.


Posted By: Meat Substitute
Date Posted: 15 April 2022 at 8:38pm
I like Volts and still have a pair of FR220s I use for house parties and the like. They're good but definitely not the last word in speakers. Some of the normal (not coaxial) ones are much better and can sound awesome when implemented well.

My mate who's been bmuch more active than me on the building lately has been raving about the BMS 5N160. Based on the graphs he's sent me it looks pretty darn good and he's using it with a 10" sub so might fit your use..?




Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 16 April 2022 at 9:19am
There was a thread on here years ago using that driver and second bms non coax driver in a tiny box. Was always intrigued by how much useable coverage and output you would actually get from it. More than its size suggests I expect.


Posted By: Andylaser
Date Posted: 16 April 2022 at 4:50pm
Cant go wrong with a Volt driver. Once experienced, never forgotten.


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"music so loud, that if we move in next door to you; your lawn will die" - Lemmy


Posted By: dlyxover
Date Posted: 17 April 2022 at 12:41am
I did some 5" +1" coax cabs a while ago.

BMS loaded, I really like how they sound.

Use them as monitions in the studio when tracking vocal and other quite instruments, they don't do much below 90Hz very crisp and detailed.

http://https://forum.speakerplans.com/51-coax_topic96612_post967674.html?KW=#967674" rel="nofollow - http://https://forum.speakerplans.com/51-coax_topic96612_post967674.html?KW=#967674


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In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 17 April 2022 at 1:18pm
Fixed link:

https://forum.speakerplans.com/51-coax_topic96612_page1.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/51-coax_topic96612_page1.html


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 19 April 2022 at 10:06am
Thanks all - I’ve asked Volt for a price, the CX220.1 sounds ideal.


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 19 April 2022 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by KWB75 KWB75 wrote:

Thanks all - I’ve asked Volt for a price, the CX220.1 sounds ideal.


Blue Aran says £230 each For those.


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 2:50pm
Hmm, £250 direct from Volt - no availability until mid August!

Back to the drawing board…


Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 3:24pm
I have a couple of pairs of Tannoy i8s, also the controller (TX1) which can be used as a crossover to separate sub, or an eq for full range use.

PM me if any interest.


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If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 4:28pm
A bit leftfield, but depending on how loud you need it to be you might be able to find a good deal on some car audio coax speakers. The stated power handling obviously needs to be taken with a bucket of salt, but I've had some pretty loud and great sounding ones from Infinity and Focal in the past.


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 8:07pm
I’ve been eyeing up this 6” P-Audio coaxial for a compact 12v rig. It seems to tick all the boxes of my needs, which sound similar to yours. 

https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUSN6150CX" rel="nofollow - https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUSN6150CX


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 9:07pm
 Space - The final frontier.
The challenge being what are you going to compromise - Efficency vs. bandwidth.
So deciding factor might be how low vs. how loud.
Some drivers like being in a small a box as possible - This makes the natural roll off steeper, but flatter in the pass band. Useful for drivers with a small x-max. But crossover frequency will be fairly high.
Lots of mid drivers have a decent x-max- This makes them more suitable for use with reflex ports which can extend the bandwidth while still giving resonable efficiency. I am thinking of allignments like QB5 where the port hump is actively filtered to give an extended response without too much excursion.
Time spent with Hornresp can give interesting results - Driver in reflex cab, run sim and then use the filter wizard to check the response & displacement.


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by KWB75 KWB75 wrote:

After some suggestions for a very compact mid/high/full range to pole mount above a 12” sub - this is for house party/background music so looking for sound quality over spl.

Thinking along the lines of a 6.5” + comp or tweeter, the original top for the sub was a 6 x 3”, but I’m not so keen on building similar.

Happy to build or buy used, budget is c£150

Thanks!


Not coax, but the B&C 6MBX44 mid-bass driver in a 3l reflex box tuned to 120Hz handles 200W continuous and is about 96dB/W. About £120 each though, so might be out of your budget...


Posted By: LjudLahger
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

I’ve been eyeing up this 6” P-Audio coaxial for a compact 12v rig. It seems to tick all the boxes of my needs, which sound similar to yours. 

https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUSN6150CX" rel="nofollow - https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=PAUSN6150CX

I had those and I thought they was too heavy.
Seen a German page where the basket snap of this reason, and thats in a "hifi" cab under transport, so just a warning there...Wink


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 20 April 2022 at 11:04pm
If the Volt isn’t available, then you could try your luck for some Faital 8HX230, Beyma 8CX300FE or 6CX200ND/N.

Also excellent drivers used in pro cabs, but stock might be hard to come by - same for lots of stuff right now.


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 21 April 2022 at 3:26pm
You could also have a look on eBay, etc. for a pair of Impact 55T / TCI52-T

You can find those cheaper than you'll ever build something, they sound pretty good once you take the low end away to feed a sub and they natively mount on a mic stand thread so you don't need a honking great 35mm pole to mount tiny speakers

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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 08 May 2022 at 8:37pm
Quick update…

The original criteria of ‘ultra compact’ has moved slightly, and I have acquired some drivers…

2 x Faital pro 6FE200. (4ohm)
1 x Monacor DT-300 with WG-300 waveguide 

I’ve started looking at a passive crossover for this, 2nd order Butterworth of 2.5k looks pretty straight forward (along with potential reduction on the tweeter)

Does anyone have any tips on getting the most out of that driver/tweeter combination?

Thanks!


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 09 May 2022 at 1:10am
2.5k is a little low to be crossing a soft-dome IMO I would be looking at nearer 3.5k or maybe higher if you do something creative to mate it to the 6”s better

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Posted By: citizensc
Date Posted: 09 May 2022 at 9:02am
Originally posted by KWB75 KWB75 wrote:

Quick update…

The original criteria of ‘ultra compact’ has moved slightly, and I have acquired some drivers…

2 x Faital pro 6FE200. (4ohm)
1 x Monacor DT-300 with WG-300 waveguide 

I’ve started looking at a passive crossover for this, 2nd order Butterworth of 2.5k looks pretty straight forward (along with potential reduction on the tweeter)

Does anyone have any tips on getting the most out of that driver/tweeter combination?

Thanks!


Going with a passive xover on a small speaker like this is a great idea, it will save on amp channels and processing. 

BUT don't just use an off the shelf xover, it will let an otherwise great project down. The main issues are that: 
1. The tweeter and woofer are very unlikely to end up in phase
2. The tweeter and woofer are very unlikely match in gain
3. your off axis response will be awful 
4. you will not be accounting for the frequency response of each driver. 

Don't worry though! designing your own passive xover isn't too hard and if done right can offer great results. 

Step 1. Take measurements using REW, any cheap measurement mic will do, maybe look at the Dayton audio range or the berry ecm 8000. Here is a guide on how to do it  https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/VituixCAD/VituixCAD_Measurement_REW.pdf

Step 2. Import these measurements in to Vituix Cad and fiddle around until you get your desired frequency response and off axis frequency response - there are a billion youtube videos on this

Step 3. Order the parts you came up with in Vituix Cad, solder them together and put the crossover inside your speaker. 

Step 4. $$$

None of this is massively complicated and you will learn heaps on your journey if you choose to go down this path.

Hope this helps!

Ps. don't forget baffle step correction or your speaker will sound a bit 'off' 


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@voyager_soundsystem


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 6:56am
Thanks! Lots to think about…

Quick question - when calculating the crossover, if I’m wiring the two 4ohm woofers in series, do I use nominal impedance of 8 ohms or would I use the RE of 3 ohms to give me a 6 ohm starting point!

Thanks again!


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 7:07am
You would wire them in series *and* load them into the box before taking the measurements so the crossover is designed for them as they will be used with all the loading effects, etc. that comes with it.

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Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 7:27am
Cheers - to be honest I was hoping to go down the non-measurement route as I don’t own a mic of any sort.

But, would you say it’s an easier process for a first time crossover builder to follow?

My main issue here is time, I’d like to get this finished by the end of the month if possible.


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 7:36am
IMO it's a lot easier to use an active XO...

For a passive to do anything helpful beyond stopping your HF getting blown requires measurements and well selected components

That said, you may find "stopping your HF getting blown" is enough for what you want to achieve...

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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: Bams
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 9:34am
The difference between optimized and acceptable is not all that big in non-critical areas of crossing over. measuring is always better but a well calculated  xover using available parameters will propably do the trick for a partyspeaker. did the same thing with zero experience when crossing a 2" to a bullet with quite great results. 


Posted By: teeth
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 9:37am
yeah, go coaxial. there's a nice set of bishopsound that you could put in a simple wedge style box.




Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 May 2022 at 10:43am
Originally posted by KWB75 KWB75 wrote:

Cheers - to be honest I was hoping to go down the non-measurement route as I don’t own a mic of any sort.

But, would you say it’s an easier process for a first time crossover builder to follow?

My main issue here is time, I’d like to get this finished by the end of the month if possible.


A passable measurement microphone is £40, and the software to take the measurements is free (REW) as is the best tool for developing crossovers, active or passive (VituixCAD). The latter even has a step by step guide to getting set up, plus preset ‘blocks’ for common filter types and an optimiser that will help you find suitable component values to hit a target acoustic transfer function.

Even if you don’t get a microphone, VituixCAD has a built-in tool for tracing the manufacturer’s published magnitude and impedance plots for each driver. It won’t be right since the box loading dictates a lot of stuff, but it’s better than nowt - especially for a beginner. You can tweak the value of a resistor with your mouse wheel and see the effect on the output in real time, for example.

Originally posted by Bams Bams wrote:

The difference between optimized and acceptable is not all that big in non-critical areas of crossing over. measuring is always better but a well calculated  xover using available parameters will propably do the trick for a partyspeaker. did the same thing with zero experience when crossing a 2" to a bullet with quite great results. 


Hard disagree, especially for newbies to electronics and the maths to derive suitable filters. The textbook electrical filter response is very rarely what you end up with acoustically. Even if the loudspeaker was purely resistive over the operating range.

It’s even worse when you look at the off axis response from poorly summing crossover slopes. Sadly that is where the majority of listeners are for PA speakers.

I think ‘ignorance is bliss’ plays a part here. In 2022 however, with such amazing tools as the above given away for free (much to the chagrin of the developer’s employers) there’s little excuse not to at least make a few ‘digital prototypes’.

If you genuinely don’t have time for even that, then stick to a proven design or premade cabinet.


Posted By: KWB75
Date Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:48pm
So, i've knocked up a box...

20L enclosure tuned to 90hz (rear port), i also had a stab at building a crossover - 2nd order 2-way 2.5k, and included a Zobel network for the woofers and simple cap to smooth out the dome tweeter, when i've got more time to play i'll definitely try measuring and tweaking, but as a start it sounds smooth, almost too smooth for my liking - i was expecting a bit more top end from that DT-300, especially with the waveguide. Maybe a 1" comp would have been a better option for more 'bite'.







Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 20 May 2022 at 11:44pm
Tidy Clap


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 21 May 2022 at 9:16am
Looks really good, compact and clean. 


Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 21 May 2022 at 1:27pm
Nooice....

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Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut.

Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/


Posted By: Andylaser
Date Posted: 21 May 2022 at 1:39pm
That looks excellent. Smile


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"music so loud, that if we move in next door to you; your lawn will die" - Lemmy


Posted By: rioclassic
Date Posted: 27 May 2022 at 5:37pm
Looks very much like the EAW JF80



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