Print Page | Close Window

Amp Brand Preferences by Region

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107011
Printed Date: 30 September 2022 at 4:30pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Amp Brand Preferences by Region
Posted By: Line Array
Subject: Amp Brand Preferences by Region
Date Posted: 12 April 2022 at 9:34pm
i keep hearing about how powersoft is a good value and then i look at prices online and i'm like - what are they talking about ?

when i looked at prices online a 20KW dynacord was same price as 20KW powersoft ... but on this forum i was told that in fact dynacord is much more expensive ... which would make sense as it's more substantially constructed, but that wasn't the prices i saw ... 

which makes me wonder if i'm simply in the wrong region of the world to buy Powersoft ?

perhaps Powersoft is indeed a good value, just not where i am ?

i'm in US ... what would you say are the go-to amplifier brands here ?  is it the obvious suspects like Crown and QSC ( since they are American ) or is it more complicated than that ?

take Dynacord for example - they only just reintroduced the brand to US market again - so does that mean they are subsidizing the amps in US market to get people unfamiliar with the brand to buy them and that's why they come out to same price as Powersoft here despite being much more substantially built ( for the same 20KW rating ) ?

basically my question is which amps seem to go with which region of the world ?  both in terms of value for money that you get with prices specific for that region and in terms of warranty and support you get in that region.

let's assume that all the reputable brands like Powersoft, Lab, Dynacord, Crown, QSC etc are equally good and equal value for the sake of this discussion only - and instead just ask - which brand logically goes with which region of the world ?  NOT where they are designed or made but where they are most logical to buy new ?

i realize it may be impossible for folks to comment on regions other than ones they're in so maybe just comment on your own region and be very specific what region that is.  if you're able to comment on multiple regions so much the better.

i would be especially interested in hearing from folks in US ... if it makes any difference ( perhaps for support ? ) i'm in the North-East US ( New Jersey ).  I think both Crown and QSC are from California but there are amplifier brands from other parts of US as well.


-------------
best place on the internet >>>

https://dissidentsound.discoursehosting.net



Replies:
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 1:35am
Originally posted by Line Array Line Array wrote:

i keep hearing about how powersoft is a good value and then i look at prices online and i'm like - what are they talking about ?


Because you live in the United States of America. Also, your standard voltage is 120 volts/60 Hz whereas, Italy is 230 volts/50 Hz. Powersoft is not aimed for the average American Consumer. Those who are using Powersoft in the United States have the resources to power the amplifier properly. They are not considered a Hobbyist by any means, and are willing to make such an investment to attain a high reward  in profits.  

Best Regards, 





-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 2:18am
well what amps are we lowly Americans supposed to use though ?

by the way i have both 120V and 240V ... no 3 phase though, sorry.

i think it's a misconception we Americans only have 120V.  that's the standard voltage in America meaning that if you buy a TV or anything like that it will be designed for 120V and that's also going to be the voltage in most outlets as well.

but we have 240V outlets for things like Electric Wall Ovens, Clothes Dryers and Car Chargers.

and this is just for residential.

in commercial / industrial areas there is also 3 phase.

America is not as backwards as Europeans tend to imagine ...


-------------
best place on the internet >>>

https://dissidentsound.discoursehosting.net


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 3:07am


Crown (Indiana), QSC (California) and, Peavey (Mississippi) still makes amplifiers. And there are lots of touring companies in the USA using amplifiers made in the USA

You cannot guarantee you will have 240 volts (in some cases it will be 208 volts) wherever you go. Even if you have a distro at your disposal, not everyone will be willing to have someone piggy-back on their box. So it makes sense to have your amplifiers functioning at their best on 120 volts as that is the standard in the USA. 

America has an older Electrical system than Europe hence, the reason the voltage is less. However, current capacity can be quite high. This is where American amplifier manufactures make up the losses.

Best Regards, 








-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 6:11am
now why did i say Crown was from California - i am such an idiot !

i keep forgetting Crown and JBL are separate companies ...

i was actually on JBL campus in Northridge, California - just drove around the parking lot to try to get imbued with the greatness !

i feel like California is almost a separate country from USA both in a good and a bad sense ... QSC amplifiers look almost like Supermicro motherboards inside ... both of them being from California ...

i feel like California has the best electrical and computer engineers in the US while on the other hand i feel like Harman really knows what they're doing as well ... so i guess i'm going to call it even between QSC and Crown for me - not really keen on Peavey though.

i'm a big fan of Bosch / Siemens ( EV / Dynacord ) as well ... call me a fanboy.  i'm a fanboy for Bosch / Siemens as well as Samsung ( Harman )

i feel like Lab shot themselves in the foot with class TD.  they invested too much into what was essentially a stop gap solution between class H and class D and i think this is how they ended up being bought out by Behringer's parent company.

Powersoft is very smart and the engineering is very impressive but their focus on thin and light amplifiers seems to be due to them targeting customers looking to upgrade ... nobody wants to upgrade to bulkier, heavier amps so Powersoft decided to position themselves at the very edge of the technological curve to capture this upgrade customer who already has amps that work and only interested in ones that can do it with less weight and size ...

on the other hand i'm not looking to upgrade or replace anything - just looking to add.  so i'm more interested in the meat of the technological curve than the bleeding edge.

the "meat" of the curve IMO would be something like 4 X 2500W in a 2RU with a class D and SMPS.  anything older than class D or SMPS i think one should turn to used market and all these 1RU amps from Powersoft, PKN etc i think are a little over-zealous like Tesla Cars.  They are too focused on being the first, leading the race and so on ... i would rather have something from a company that is more concerned simply with delivering a solid product than winning some imaginary competition.

even if Powersoft are very reliable i think that reliability is probably in large part due to limiting.  if they can have a 20,000 watt amp limit down to 270 watts on sustained sinewaves then i suppose they can have it reliable that way.

i see mostly good in powersoft but i also see some over-reaching as well.  not as bad as with Teslas though.

by comparison when i saw the exploded view of Dynacord IPX / TGX i was instantly like - THAT is how it should be done !  even when i look at the internals of older ElectoVoice / Dynacord amps they always look very clean and well made to me, without that schizophrenic slant of Powersoft where all the components seem to be at war with each other for every square millimeter of PCB.

on the other hand i see why Powersoft is beating EV / Dynacord ... every single heatsink in that IPX / TGX looks 100% custom.  this must be insanely expensive.  i haven't seen any custom heatsinks in any other amp.  for the X series powersoft went altogether with just regular aluminum plate stamped into a C channel which doubles as both the chassis and heatsink for the amp modules - and they uses the same general design in 1RU, 2RU and powered speaker module amps for even greater $avings.

so it's literally made cheaper than the cheapest Chinese amps ... of course this is how you win.  You win by cutting costs not by increasing them.  with so much money saved they can manufacture in Italy and still have enough money left for all their Research and Development.

Dynacord on other hand ... is screwed.  Yes the IPX / TGX look amazing but they must cost them a fortune to build and most can't afford them and they don't have any mid-range offerings.  just the high-end which few can afford and the entry-level which also nobody will buy because you can get that performance on the used market.

basically Powersoft runs the smartest business IMO while Dynacord IPX / TGX is the best made amp, but as a business is either doomed to fail or more likely just keep taking losses forever only kept alive by infusion of funds from the parent company.


-------------
best place on the internet >>>

https://dissidentsound.discoursehosting.net


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 7:11am
As far as i am aware, Crown and JBL are currently from south Korea, being owned by Samsung? Unfortunately i think most of their “greatness” is behind them…

As for Lab Gruppen and class TD, perhaps you are not old enough to realise that their topology, along with its good sound quality and fabulous reliability was absolutely class leading for many years, with the lab and later FP series having a long and highly successful sales life. Class D technology of the time did not share their sound quality ( compare a lab2000c and Powersoft Digam from the same, early to mid 90’s period on a full range speaker and hear it for yourself). It’s this reputation for sound quality and reliability that made Lab Gruppen attractive for purchase by music tribe as they like a brand with historic kudos.

For me, my appreciation for Powersoft is more down to the networking and DSP integration as well as good sound quality and reliability. We have already moved on from the X series and tour T series and install the duecanalli, quattrocanalli etc, all of which use appropriate forced cooling appropriate to their thermal requirements at low noise. I would agree that the X4 fan noise and thermal capacity was not adequate.
But even our choice of touring amps is restricted to our own loudspeaker product, as our premium touring system is L Acoustics where dedicated amplifiers (built by Camco who are owned by L Acoustics) are required. This system integration is now a major factor in amplifier choice, particularly as in lower range markets powered speakers form the major part of the market.

I think it is natural that we all tend to use product that we are exposed to or have easy accessibility to. The USA with it’s large domestic market and historical large manufacturing base has been able to be relatively insular compared with smaller countries that tend to rely on other countries for products. Naturally both these scenarios have both advantages and disadvantages.


-------------
“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 10:23am
What do you mean by that Dynacord is more "more substantially constructed".

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 12:20pm
i mean a Dynacord rated for 20KW ( same as what X4 is rated for ) is twice the size ( 2RU ), much heavier ( 40 lbs ), has twice as many fans ( which are also each twice the size ) and uses multiple gigantic extruded heat sinks while the X4 only has a few pieces of aluminum sheet stamped into C-channel shape that most people wouldn't even call heatsinks but that's all you get in the X4.

https://youtu.be/Jr5rYbYEZzs?t=30" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Jr5rYbYEZzs?t=30

frankly it is not necessary.  the optimum is somewhere in-between Powersoft and Dynacord but if i am the buyer i would rather have over-built then the other way.  if i'm the seller of course i would do what Powerosoft does, which is use slightly less than the absolute minimum required and then put in smart limiters that keep it from blowing up.

i'm picking on X4 because it is the most extreme ( maybe the only ) example of under-sized cooling in Powersoft line-up ... but the philosophy of doing more with less permeates the entire lineup.

on other hand the philosophy with Dynacord TGX / IPS seems to be doing more with more.

Elon Musk also has "less is more" philosophy like Powersoft.  and like Powersoft sometimes he goes too far with this.

Dynacord philosophy seems to be to build well.  Powersoft philosophy seems to be to build as light and efficient as possible and in fact probably lighter.

Capitalism by its nature is a race to the bottom in terms of build quality.  Whoever can build a product the cheapest wins the race.  Powersoft is winning.  Dynacord didn't seem to get the memo about the rules of the game.


-------------
best place on the internet >>>

https://dissidentsound.discoursehosting.net


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 12:47pm
"Dynacord didn't seem to get the memo about the rules of the game."

Yes - and no. I know a few people (like one guy that runs several discoteques) that are total Dynacord fans and will always buy the brand over anything else. Like there are fans of F1, or Void. Depends on your experience with the brand - and how deep your pockets are!   Smile




-------------
Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 1:05pm
@ Line Array

I do not see why Powersoft would go to far with the X4.
It is designed to be used as a system amp with several different loads. For example:
Ch1 - Sub
Ch2 - MF
Ch3 - MF
Ch4 - Hf

With such combinations or even more demanding loads like two channel sub, the X4 performs perfectly.
If you want to make a real comparison prize and size wise, look at the X4L. At the moment the most powerful amp available.

PS: where did you see the inside of the TGX? I have not seen a picture or video yet.


Posted By: Line Array
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 1:36pm
i already posted the insides of TGX / IPX twice but no problem i will post it again ...

here is a video of IPX, which is the same inside:

https://youtu.be/jnmt38ERvGw?t=28" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/jnmt38ERvGw?t=28

and here is TGX but not as detailed:

https://youtu.be/Jr5rYbYEZzs?t=30" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Jr5rYbYEZzs?t=30

front air intake is hidden on the bottom ( video is upside down )

three fans in the front

one fan in the back

power supply is 2RU

amp modules are 1RU stacked on top of each other for better density

amp heatsink is 2 part design that bolts together to allow the heatsink to cover most of PCB and still have components fit underneath while also allowing power devices to get bolted directly to heatsink.

this is the most overkill heatsink solution i have ever seen.


-------------
best place on the internet >>>

https://dissidentsound.discoursehosting.net


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

@ Line Array
<SNIP>

PS: where did you see the inside of the TGX? I have not seen a picture or video yet.


There's an animated exploding view of the inside in the URL that Line
Array posted in http://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107011&PID=1059579&title=amp-brand-preferences-by-region#1059579" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107011&PID=1059579&title=amp-brand-preferences-by-region#1059579




-------------
If your vaccinations were mandatory and nobody in your class had measles,
then you know that you're not a Millenial kid.
</f


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 3:24pm
You can contact Electro-voice as they have strong ties with Dynacord. Electro-voice may have a few of those amplifiers around in their inventory in which, they can loan to you for a test run.

Best Regards, 


-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 13 April 2022 at 10:56pm
I dont know if it's different in the States but over here every EV amp is actually a Dynacord under the bonnet and has been for years. Either way, beautifully-made, top-notch kit (at top-notch prices..)

-------------
Kevin

North Staffordshire



Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 14 April 2022 at 1:02am
Originally posted by kedwardsleisure kedwardsleisure wrote:

I dont know if it's different in the States but over here every EV amp is actually a Dynacord under the bonnet and has been for years. Either way, beautifully-made, top-notch kit (at top-notch prices..)

Electro-voice phased out the name of Dynacord in the States from a marketing perspective. However, there are few pieces available on eBay. 

Best Regards, 


-------------
Elliot Thompson



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net