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What plan for single pd186

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107058
Printed Date: 23 April 2024 at 2:40pm
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Topic: What plan for single pd186
Posted By: Jarba
Subject: What plan for single pd186
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:25am
Hey, I have a single pd186 that we’re gonna use in a small room. The room is about 5 metres wide and 4 metres long. I’ve already got a pd186, but I haven’t built a box for it. We don’t have the budget to get anymore drivers and amps, so the build would be for a single driver. Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking of horns, but heard they shine when played with 4 or more.


Edit: We’ll be playing techno, dub and deep house.



Replies:
Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:41am
B and C Sub 18  :  https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/images/BC_Speakers/conception_diy_italie/Plans_DIY_PDF/B&C_SPEAKERS_SUB_18.pdf" rel="nofollow - 18-SUB Model (1) (toutlehautparleur.com)

Remember plans are for internal measurements and using 19mm ply, change to 18mm and add some bracing.

https://forum.speakerplans.com/bc-sub-18s_topic45717_page1.html" rel="nofollow - B&C sub 18's - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1  Thread here on 186 in sub18. 

Search around more for some build pics for bracing and construction.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:47am
Do you think the 184 sub would be a good alternative?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 10:05am
Originally posted by sarsen1 sarsen1 wrote:

B and C Sub 18  :  https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/images/BC_Speakers/conception_diy_italie/Plans_DIY_PDF/B&C_SPEAKERS_SUB_18.pdf" rel="nofollow - 18-SUB Model (1) (toutlehautparleur.com)

Remember plans are for internal measurements and using 19mm ply, change to 18mm and add some bracing.

https://forum.speakerplans.com/bc-sub-18s_topic45717_page1.html" rel="nofollow - B&C sub 18's - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1  Thread here on 186 in sub18. 

Search around more for some build pics for bracing and construction.


The Original MK1 PD186, was great in this design.

Does the OP have original PD186 or later version !?

Not sure if later versions of PD186, will work as well, in same cabs, as the original.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 10:09am
I believe it’s the original version


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 11:20am
pd186 is suitable driver for the 184 cab but if you want low notes, are using in a small room and aim to only build one I would personally go for a reflex option such as sub18. 

If you did want to build more boxes to match in future and use the system outside or in a larger venue, then 184 could be an option. Although some might say that due to the 184 design being over 20 years old you might be better off looking at something else. The answer is as always; it depends! 


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 11:52am
Would it be stupid to go with a 186 horn if we’re only gonna be using one? Or is there some other horns that would work alone? 


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 12:15pm
I should also state that size doesn’t matter at all, it will be in one place and not moved around.


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Jarba Jarba wrote:

Would it be stupid to go with a 186 horn if we’re only gonna be using one? Or is there some other horns that would work alone? 

186 would be even worse in small room than 184 in my opinion, will not drop low at all and designed to be used in block of 4 or more. My experience of messing around different subs in my small 11ft by 21ft studio is that anything other than reflex sounds pants. 

If you want to build something more 'exotic' than reflex for the experience/looks/building a larger system in the future and don't mind that it wont sound great, then do it. If you want what will sound loudest and lower in a small space then go reflex.

As mentioned above Mk1 PD186 sounds great in the sub18 plan and would provide more than enough bass to shake your room.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:24pm
Yeah, the reason a horn is more attractive is that we have it in a reloop pa1600 box. The box is kinda designed like the b&c 18 and the measurements are 530x650x800mm. It’s not as loud as we want though, we want the bass to be much more physical. Maybe it’s the room that causes a lot of cancellation? I tested it just now super inaccurately, but it gets about 110db at 50hz with 800 watts. I measured it with my iPhone right where the opening is. I know the measurement is inaccurate, but isn’t this quite low? I used a peavey cs800 amp at max for the measurement.


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:10pm
Not 100 % sure what the Thiele-small parameters are for the old PD186 you have but I would expect 124 - 125 db  2pi in a reflex cabinet like the 18-sub reflex. So your 'measurement'  is way off or you have a problem somewhere?


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:12pm
I’m not sure, the iphone should only be about 2-5 db off. I’m not sure what else could be the problem


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:14pm
Maybe the cabinet has a leak or something? Sounds super unlikely, but that’s all I can think off


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:28pm
Well if you are getting anywhere near 20mm peak to peak excursion at 50hz you should be upwards of 120db at 1 metre


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:30pm
How would I go about measuring the xmax?


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:33pm
https://forum.speakerplans.com/pd-186-xmax_topic38201.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/pd-186-xmax_topic38201.html

White dot on speaker - Ear defenders & look maybe!


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:36pm
I’ll try to figure it out tomorrow :) 


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 9:42pm
As thread xmax is approx 10mm
So 18 sub reflex cab driven to 10mm (grey)and Martinson Roar 18 driven to about the same excursion. Using old 186 parameters I had. Not confident that the 186  would be a good match to the Roar18, it might break, but was looking for solutions that might give you that bit more!
I should add don't test with a constant tone for more than a few seconds & away from the excursion minimum so probably 60hz plus - To get 800w from your CS800 you must be running in bridge mono?



Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 10:14pm
PD186 MK1 would "most probably", do well, in the MS-18 MKIII.

http://hornplans.free.fr/ms18.html" rel="nofollow - http://hornplans.free.fr/ms18.html




-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Jarba Jarba wrote:

Maybe the cabinet has a leak or something? Sounds super unlikely, but that’s all I can think off

The reloop box you have looks an active sub, have you removed the amp module and made it passive for use with your peavey amp? Is the 186 what originally came in the box?

Ms18 mk3 would give you more output than a reflex so could well be worth a try, but again in a small room I would imagine you would get a lot rattling of stuff in the room but not much sense of physical/musical bass in there. I found that 2x15 reflex 'feels' much louder than 2x 18 mini scoops in a small room.

Other things to think about are placement of the sub in room, placement/crossover points of tops, time aligning and eqing to suit the space.  


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 10:26am
Yes, the active amp is removed, and it’s not made for the pd186 no. It may very well be the room that’s shitty, we’ve tried moving it around, but we haven’t found a spot to have the sub and get volume in the middle of the room. 


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 8:11pm
Yes, I’m running in bridge mono. Maybe the input isn’t hot enough for the hi-z input? I can’t get it any hotter with my dsp without clipping, so I’d have to buy a pre amp or something I’m assuming? I hit 115 dB today. I measured 2-3 metres away from the speaker and got 90 dB. Is the room just shitty then maybe? I was still almost 10 db under the simulation though. It’s weird


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 8:33pm
What’s your current signal chain?


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 8:39pm
When mixing it’s dj controller->8 channel mixer->Thomann minidsp->peavey cs800. I use the aux send from the mixer into it’s own channel on the mini dsp, so that I can control the bass level on the mixer.


Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:14pm
Maybe as a test try using the mixer on the DSP out and then into the Peavey to see if you can get enough drive signal? 
Looked for info on the MiniDSP output level but not found anything other than its supposedly balanced TRS jack out.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:16pm
I don’t think that would help, seeing as the signal is already reaches clipping from the mixer if I turn it up too loud. Or did I misunderstand your idea? 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:43pm
Any phone microphone is not suitable to measure any SPL.
Second, the room is always a big factor. To gain the most from your sub, put it in a corner. Reading your other posts, I doubt a different design will fix your problem.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 9:52pm
Yeah the phone was just to get an approximation. We had it in a corner in the past, but it still gets cancelled a lot in the middle where the people are. 


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 11:37pm
We are maybe getting a stipend we could use to get one more driver. Would a horn solution be optimal for 2 drivers in such a small place? 


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 7:22am
You will get that same cancellation with any other cabinet. It is just not possible to have perfect coverage in such a room. 


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 11:53am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Any phone microphone is not suitable to measure any SPL.
Second, the room is always a big factor. To gain the most from your sub, put it in a corner. Reading your other posts, I doubt a different design will fix your problem.


Not true. Up to around 100 dBZ, iPhone MEMS microphones since the iPhone 4 are within 2dB of professional meters, if the app is using compensation data. StudioSixDigital AudioTools, SPLnFFT and the free NIOSH app were the best, when I did a round-robin study on this to help venue owners do cost-effective monitoring of during COVID.

They do saturate with high amounts of bass, however, due to the physical sizing of the cavity.

Android phones are a wash. A cheap Samsung outperformed the flagship by some margin in a study from 2016.

Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

You will get that same cancellation with any other cabinet. It is just not possible to have perfect coverage in such a room. 


Multiple small subs distributed around the space on their own DSP channels, and a tool like MultiSubOptimizer (MSO) makes a huge difference. Free and easy to use with inexpensive kit.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 11:56am
Yeah I used the NIOSH app, did you do the study I found it from?  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32108336/" rel="nofollow - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32108336/

So building another 18 could solve our problem? I’ll play around with placement and see if theres a decent place to put it. I heard about putting the sub in the listening position, and then put it at the spot it sounds best. Does this work? If so I’ll go around with the db meter and put it where it’s loudest


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 6:43pm
@toasty

He will reach that 100dBZ with ease, so I should have probably made my statement a bit more clear.


Second, talking just one cabinet, the problem will stay. Multiple smaller subs with correct processing is a different story as you described.


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Jarba Jarba wrote:

Yeah I used the NIOSH app, did you do the study I found it from?  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32108336/" rel="nofollow - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32108336/

So building another 18 could solve our problem? I’ll play around with placement and see if theres a decent place to put it. I heard about putting the sub in the listening position, and then put it at the spot it sounds best. Does this work? If so I’ll go around with the db meter and put it where it’s loudest



No, my work was for a degree module so is unpublished - although the results were used as part of some larger work at the time.

If you're using the NIOSH app, make sure you change the weighting in the app setting from the default of dBA to either dBC or dBZ. Not doing that will mean your readings are filtering out the majority of bass content, which would explain the discrepancy against the levels you expect.

dBZ is unweighted, although dBC is closer to what you'll perceive in a loud gig environment.

From memory, the NIOSH app will display "CLIP" on the screen if the mic is saturated.

As for the method of putting the sub in the listening position, yes this works perfectly well via the principle of reciprocity. It's less effective with a larger listening area such as a venue than it is when you can plonk the speaker on your chair or sofa, though.

If you do want to give it a go, it would be best to do this with a continuous pink noise stimulus into the sub. Your auditory memory is very short, and you'll struggle to hear the dips in response as you move around the room with music playing.

It would also be best to use some app or method to save the frequency responses at the various positions.

Mark those - either put something bright on the floor, or make a floor plan doodle - and repeat the test at the same locations with the sub placed in three or more spots across the listening area. You want >9 measurement positions per source position to characterise the response of a space.

The SPLnFFT app is only a few quid, and you're only concerned about the relative changes in response from location to location so using your phone in 'unweighted' is fine.


Posted By: Jarba
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 9:57pm
Okay, so I should put the sub in 3 different locations, then measure out 9 different places in the listening area for each of the locations? So 27 measurements in total? And what would I do with the result? How would I go from there? Sounds really interesting and I’m thinking of giving it a go



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