Who else, apart from Sinai and Volcano, are running paraflex, in dub n reggae. I heard Volcano at NHC.

So forgetting about sims and plots, how does 1x21" paraflex, compare with a decent 21" Full Scoop,   32hz - 100hz !?

Iirc it was user "noud", in a thread about a top build. 

EDIT: found it! 

https://Forum.speakerplans.com/2x10-vented-horn-idea_topic100997_page8.html" rel="nofollow - https://Forum.speakerplans.com/2x10-vented-horn-idea_topic100997_page8.html

Edit 2: scoop was apparently fane 18xb loaded.....

Not even comparable to a shutter ply 18" sb with minimal bracing. I wouldnt even use paraflex for pa let alone reggae. Definatly a design that shouldnt have left the work shop imo. 

If you want to come over the Pennines with your boxes, you're welcome to A/B them against mine 

Got a warehouse space with 3 phase power where we can run it as loud as you want.

This offer goes for anyone. 

I think I will build 18/21 double bandpass manifold boxes from the 18sound enclosure designs page - if I get bored of my mini scoops. I like their drivers too!

In my universe,  a 1x21 paraflex, would need to "Thanos"  a 1x21 Full Scoop, 32hz-90hz, to justify it's existence. 

Just a strange cab. Big in size but doesnt play very low but also doesnt play the higher end all that great. And the throw/coverage hasnt been good from what ive witnessed. I've put my 21" project on hold for now but that would be the last cab id go for. 

turbo7 wrote: A scoop loaded with 18XB can have 14dB less output at 33Hz than a "good" scoop. The 15DS115 is much stronger and shifts more air than the 18XB

Yes, a Fane 18XB loaded Scoop, may sound more musical and smooth than many others, but what I class as a "good Scoop", would be a Scoop optimal for PD1851 or 18NLW9601, being powered by K20 or Void Inf8MK2.

That's when you are closing on an ultimate 18" Scoop, worthy of comparison to other cab designs.

concrete lion

sinai

epiphany 

I've seen sounds go from scoops to paraflex, and not the other way around. What does that mean?

i heard sinai at subdub sounded very heavy 

and i heard ital power the other week with new qss 18" scoops very heavy

also jah youth with double 18" sounded very heavy 

People don't buy a new car every time a new model comes out.

I'm running reflex in my humble rig. I'd love to have scoops, because I love how they look. To me it's the best looking sub of all time. I built one to test and I also loved how it sounded on reggae, but could see where it would come short on other genres compared to my reflex. Tbh, I've heard a system in Denmark that played with 8 (Jah Tubby) scoops and to me... that was a bit of a loud mess, very harsh sounding compared to the other sound that was set up that night. The other sound had something a forum member here built. I think it was 21" ported. Very warm and nice sounding bass, but admittedly not as brutal as the scoops, maybe brutal is not what I enjoy at the end of the day, I dunno.

I'm also very curious about Paraflex, and I'd love to hear them when I get the chance. I did built a Paraflex kick bin to try, but never loaded it with a recommended driver. And the whole project fizzled out when Covid hit.

I'm going of a tangent, the point is, a lot goes into the choices we make for sound, such as personal preferences, economy, what crowds we are playing, etc.

I think your argument is a bit of glass half empty kind thing. I see sounds on Facebook that have moved to Type O etc. from scoops and have been very happy with their choice. So I don't see why Paraflex could not be an option for a reggae oriented system.

Having said that, the dub systems all had that “floaty” feeling where the bass was thick enough to feel like you’re swimming in it and they also overloaded the phone mic until it turned itself off. The paraflex rig as others have mentioned from other gigs just didn’t appear to go as low or as loud, but having said that the energy from the crowd was much rowdier and lively in the Sinai room so to most if not all it wasn’t an issue and still a great show.

It looks like Sinai (Huw) has offered to host a proper shootout anytime, so it would truly be great to have a good faith shootout with a more traditional setup.

One thing I do feel that is worth mentioning is that this skepticism of Paraflex imo is largely brought on by the unnecessary defensiveness in the FB group and community like shadowbanning etc. Just the other day I saw MMJ bashing traditional designs again because you can’t physically touch the magnet to feel how hot they get, and fair enough thermal issues may arise sooner in FLH, but that’s not a real world comparison and feels like cheap marketing to those who don’t know better. So TL;DR what snowflake said.

I've never seen "bashing" of other designs in the Paraflex groups. But there was a very detailed comparison between Iration and Sinai from when they played in the same room one time. You should be able to find it in the FB group. It was written by a fan of both Sinai and Iration and seemed very level headed and unbiased.

I think it's best to just go listen for oneself. I like reading different people's opinions, but it really comes down to personal preference at the end.

A lot of folks could have a clean set, but look to create distortion. It's been quite interesting to see some operators who have come through playing 'raw' more basic boxes changing up and how they either adapt to the newer box tunings/set up, or find a way to create a newer/different presentation. I think that's what has been interesting about the talk on paraflex. 

It's never as simple as one box or another, or what single pre amp you use. So many variables, it really does come down to knowing what you want (sound/Freq) and trying to get it. 

Like this.

Also, is the System Engineer, suitably experienced and skilled,  to extract optimum performance and sound quality, from what he is using.

Many soundsystems, have given certain sub designs, bad name, by not fulfiling, the above.

Was not my experience at all going into the FB group looking for a kick to put over my scoop at the time. There's quite a dissonance between these type of comments here on sp and my own experience on their site. I get that they don't allow people to critizise their designs on their own site, but that's what we have sp for anyway, a kind of neutral forum for discussing all speaker designs. But that you can't even mention other designs on there..? Lot's of people come on there like I did to find tops, kicks, or subs to combine with whatever other stuff they have or are planning to build. And I know a lot of the members there have lots of love for scoops and other designs.

If you ask a question here about a scoop in the general forum it gets moved to scoop forum where it belongs, same principle. I don't see how the Paraflex site own it to anyone to deliver anything, you can use what the website has to offer or leave it alone. Simple ting.

ok, so if i say:

"i own the loudest speaker box on the planet......." or some such BS, then:

by YOUR logic, i now owe nothing proofwise to ANYONE to have to back my claim.........?? exactly.

nope. same with paraflex, all folk are asking for is proof...... 

also:

"I get that they don't allow people to critizise their designs"

seriously mate, you feel that THIS is the way to promote your box design, by allowing NO ONE to criticize? lol... my god, what kinda backwards ass thinking is that?

ok, so if i say:

"i own the loudest speaker box on the planet......." or some such BS, then:

by YOUR logic, i now owe nothing proofwise to ANYONE to have to back my claim.........?? exactly.

nope. same with paraflex, all folk are asking for is proof...... 

also:

"I get that they don't allow people to critizise their designs"

seriously mate, you feel that THIS is the way to promote your box design, by allowing NO ONE to criticize? lol... my god, what kinda backwards ass thinking is that?
not to mention, you have just said:

"Was not my experience at all"

so which is it? you CAN critique, as you said? or "its not your experience"?????? as you also say.    

No. Hyping your thing is one thing or sharing your excitement for something is OK by me, but to put forward false claims is another. But have such false claims been made? Please link then, cuz I've just not seen that, but I could have missed it.

I've responded to specific statements that I think grossly exagerates. Like if you say "scoop" on the site it's an automatic ban. It's those kind of statements that I find ridiculous.

I think speakerplans is sufficient a forum for scrutinizing the designs. I personally don't think the Paraflex website has to constantly answer every naysayers questions. If they did fine, if they don't also fine (by me). We have right here to discuss the desings. But then let's also not make false claims here either, and be specific of what exactly incorrect information they have passed on.

Scoops is an interesting example because even though they perform poorly on paper and is an outdated design in many peoples opinion, they are still a popular design.

wot paper is that ? the sunday sport  

king of the dancehall  

Hope so, i still plan to build more some day. I want scoops to be best because they look best.

I know the outcome and its going to be a desaster for the paraflex, but there will be no proof at least here - nobody will show up with Paraflex 

Isn’t nearly every horn design ever like this? Certainly wouldn’t call them all flawed! If the db / 1w is high then surely that doesn’t matter as it’s just a different way of achieving similar levels?

Tbh to me the want for getting the most out of a small power supply far exceeds the want for soaking a load of power up into hefty drivers.

Maybe I’m missing the point? 

Not sticking up for paraflex as I am still yet to hear 

If you got the best horn 18" you can find, it will not even reach its x-max with full power applied with a correctly matched scoop. 

Try simulating any of the best available drivers in a paraflex, its OFF. Technically speaking, a bad impedance matching just means no real but more imaginary loading of the cone, that is the case with paraflex at certain frequency(ies), that is the case with any cone loading below the horn cutoff, the excursion will rise but no SPL, because no loading. That is the reason one needs a highpassfilter with Subwoofers depending on the tuning frequency. 

Applying Voltage that does not contribute to power to SPL conversion but to heat... 

This is a general rule that applies for all subwoofers - if you can not put in the power rating of a subwoofer, already reaching Xmax - you will end up with less SPL compared to the one that takes the power mechanically ( and more.. ) 

Thats it, and any paraflex is welcome to get destroyed, i have a lot of respect for Sinai sound which is the only big sound i know who stands strong with his system, making him an example. 

I would not even be interested at all in Transmissionline derivates, but if the sect tells the world they got 108dB 1w/1m halfspace, this can not be ignored, too many people get fooled by this idiots, its simply a blatant lie, nobody is going to discuss it as one gets banned immediatly. 

I would even prefer single 21" reflex over the paramess

For comparison. This is the Gjallarhorn, a large tapped horn which is comparable in size with the CE2E. This is a groundplane measurement. 

This is the measurement of the L Acoustics K28 Bass, which is near the theoretical maximum of output of a 2x18" ported Bass. The industry standard, Full space measurement. If we recalculate that to groundplane, just add +6dB to the curve. If we compare that to the CE2 groundplane measurement, we learn that 2x K28, which is 4x 18", is still 1dB less in output at 50Hz. 

That is a lie. We are talking about 4x 18" vs. 1x18". 

This is one of the "official" groundplane measurements of the C2E: 

Which is why some paper needs to be ignored.

Don't know why some still cannot accept, not all Scoops, are the same Fane, Eminence, JBL Design, from 50s/60s/70s, and some people know to tune/change/evolve an old design, to suit modern drivers.

In the real world, with all that's going on, and the number of people dying from war daily, Scoop vs Paraflex doesn't really matter.

Instead of all the online keyboard warrior lark, "many" would just require a Roots Reggae soundclash/dance, with very good Systems of both types, in large venue, with decent power, and each system having "8x" sub drivers each.

As speakers are designed to play music, and entertain.

I'll reserve my judgement, until one of the above occurs.

in response to the firmly rooted question:

polar bear scoops

es18bph

QSS midtops are their new ones