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Sinai RC1

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Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107484
Printed Date: 31 March 2023 at 7:54am
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Topic: Sinai RC1
Posted By: concept-10
Subject: Sinai RC1
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:19am
So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


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CNC Cabinets



Replies:
Posted By: ProjectBb
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:50am
I hadn't heard rc1 or sinai until Saturday so was excited. Was looking forward o hearing paraflex for the first time. Until I arrived and heard them 😬 . They're OK but really not special. Missing alot of notes . Always seemed like they're lacking something.  Rc1 completely outdone it in every way. Felt like you couldn't breathe sometimes when it dropped. 
It was fair and even if you took 2 rc1 bins away it would still be the same result. Sinai ate legends and great guys. 
I really love sinais tops. Can tell there has been a lot of love put into the cabs too. The rig is nice and if rc1 wasn't there I'd have been impressed. I can't imagine it's very effective outside. It didn't throw very far

The night was great, fantastic tune selection and good vibes.  But I definitely don't understand the hype for paraflex at all after that. Wink


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:03am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


photo shows RC1 have 13 crest amps in their racks. How many X8 did Sinai have?


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:31am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

So after all the hype about Paraflex for the last couple of years the inevitable happened, billed as a meeting and not a clash, it was done on the box volume method giving Sinai a slight volume advantage, though a couple of the Paraflex fans on FB last night said this method was unfair. 
Firstly I have all the time in the world for Hugh who is a lovely guy and what he does with his silver formula rig, so this is an honest assessment of how it performed.
RC1 were using their silver grilled system that has been around for about 20 years powered by Crest 9001/CA18s.
Sinai were using Paraflex silver formula 21s powered by X8s.
Sheer output.   No comparison, RC1 had it by a massive margin and could have still had this advantage with a lot less kit.
Depth of Bass.  The paraflex subs were missing notes at the bottom and strangely some of the upper bass notes seemed either to jump out very loudly or were muffled, it was a very odd sounding thing but quite loud.
RC1 covered the whole of the bass range well but from 50 down it was bloody eye watering to be absolutely honest and hit every note with authority.
I have personally heard the Golden formula 21s the silver formula 21s and the double 18 type Os and in my honest opinion they all have the above issues.
Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


photo shows RC1 have 13 crest amps in their racks. How many X8 did Sinai have?

4 9001s on bass for RC1  2 X8s for Sinai.   9001 1150w@8 2050w @4  3000w @2  
2 X8s for Sinai  1600w @8  3000w @4 5200w @2
However as stated by me and another actually at the venue RC1 could have got the same result with less cabs, I hoped this thread would be about how Paraflex actually work.



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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: carlosdelondres
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:53am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:

Let's hope we can have an honest discussion about plans/designs like we used to.   


Yeah though to be honest a discussion of what's going on in Jons boxes would also be very interesting! Equal box volume is sure not equal in this case. Looks like a lot of fun anyway Clap


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:00am
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


4 9001s on bass for RC1  2 X8s for Sinai.   9001 1150w@8 2050w @4  3000w @2  
2 X8s for Sinai  1600w @8  3000w @4 5200w @2
However as stated by me and another actually at the venue RC1 could have got the same result with less cabs, I hoped this thread would be about how Paraflex actually work.



possible that RC1 had 6000W to each box and sinai had only 1600W or 3000W to each box. though if they had bridged the x8 and protected the drivers with limiters they could have been running 6kW or 10kW per box.

I'm not bigging up the paraflex but without more info on amps and driver impedances can't compare.


Posted By: lickweed
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:02am
Looks like 8 x 18" vs 3 x 21"




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http://www.liquidsound.co.uk/


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:01pm
think it's been established that jon's (rc1) are double 15s. with some sort of active cooling in the box.


Posted By: carlosdelondres
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:07pm
Hmmm...I don't see how you can get that kind of sound out of double 15 boxes without some kind of special sauce! Active cooling not withstanding, only really going to help with long term power handling surely?


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:30pm
What about the tonality between them? I’ve only heard RC1 on a couple of occasions but both times it felt to me like being in a hooligan’s hatchback car with a loud sub, no real definition. 


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 12:36pm

I don't visit SP much these days, but was tipped off that we had a mention on here for the event last Saturday.  It was an interesting night for sure.

Firstly, I thought Sinai's tops sounded great.  I with RC1 was leaning marginally more towards the easy listening HiFi response and Sinai were marginally more towards the more toppy dance/PA sounding response, but this was just a minor eq preference thing, in my opinion both sounded great.

Then, the bass...  I have heard a lot of Paraflex bins, but have never yet been impressed by them.  However, each time it has been a different venue, or different music, or different sound limits, or different quality engineers, or different power availability, etc, so it is always hard to get a reliable benchmark comparison.

However, last Saturday we had a system of known performance to benchmark against (RC1) next to what is arguably one of the best performing Paraflex rigs in the UK, sharing the same room, same power, same DJs, similar size stacks in similar positions, etc, so as an engineer I felt I could finally draw a reliable and conclusive comparison.

I did expect RC1 to outperform the Paraflex, if only because that is usually what RC1 does.  What I did not expect is for the difference to be so jaw dropping.  We weren't running the bins especially hard, even the loudest bass peaks during the night were still about 3db below our limit thresholds,  yet the difference in bass pressure was phenomenal.

The Paraflex did not seem to hit any of the lower sub notes (below 40 hz) with any authority at all, many of the bass note sounded like they were coloured with harmonics and quite a few notes seemed to be missing any level in an odd kind of way as if the response was peaky.  Overall output SPL was rather disappointing for the size of them.  If you stood within a couple of metres of the front of the bins the SPL wasn't too bad, but it quickly dropped away as you walked back.  I have heard so many horn loaded and bandpass and other boxes that size for size would significantly outperform these Paraflex in every way.  The content of this paragraph is not intended as an insult, just a simple statement of facts.  It is confirmation of what I already suspected anyway, but as an engineer I need evidence before I can accept facts, and this night provided that evidence.

What I don't understand (and maybe someone can explain) is that if other existing box designs give you better sound quality and better response and better output SPL, then why would you ever waste wood building the Paraflex?  The only thing I can see that you get in return is the look (I accept for some people looks matter more than performance) and some harmonics/distortion effect.  If you wanted the harmonics/distortion then surely some kind of processor/effects unit could be used instead rather than having to compromise the quality of your subs to achieve the effect?  If you want cool looks then surely you could find a way of dressing up a better designed box instead?

Of course comparisons are all relative, if there wasn't RC1 or another powerful rig to compare to alongside then Sinai's rig was making enough noise on the bass end to still be a perfectly satisfying rig to dance to, and indeed again by comparison to the majority of lightweight rigs and installs Sinai's rig would certainly sound heavy.

I really like Hugh and what he does with Sinai, and none of the above is intended to be aimed at him, it is about the Paraflex sub which he did not design and if anything he has just fallen victim to having been convinced into building.  Furthermore, I would say that the fact Sinai has managed to be so successful lately despite the use of these boxes is massive testament to Hugh and his audio and marketing skills.  I would go so far as to say I don't think I could have achieved what Hugh has in developing the reputation of Sinai with those subs as well as he has done, so I do take my hat off to Hugh, amazing guy.  I just feel for him and the hundreds of others worldwide who seem from somewhere to have got the impression that the paraflex boxes are very good, how did this happen?  Did the guy that designed the boxes not build them and listen against some others before suggesting anyone else should build them?  Then, did nobody else build them and review them before they became so widespread?  Asking this makes me feel like I am just asking a silly question, but when so many people have spent so much money on boxes that appear to be of such a poor design these are questions I feel really need to be asked.

Anyway, I do not wish to get into too many debates on this, these are just my opinions that I unusually decided to share, take them or leave them!  If someone has Paraflex boxes which they are happy with then good for them, whatever makes them happy, but they are not for me.  In fact, in a competitive world of sound it would suit me if everyone had them as it would put rigs like ours on an even higher pedestal!



Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 1:15pm
As a footnote, just one more question in case anyone has the answer - In the well funded world of pro-audio with all the R&D and testing facilities, roughly how many of the world's pro-audio manufacturers now make a Paraflex type box and have therefore considered the design fit for professional use?  As the design has been in the public domain for some time now all such manufacturers will be very familiar with it.  These manufacturers are not stupid, they have some of the best acoustic minds in the world.  If there were significant advantages to the design and it was not flawed then they would be riding the Paraflex wave too.  Or are they all wrong?


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 3:31pm
Hi. good to hear your perspective. Did you notice how Sinai were powering their subs. single channel or bridged? 8ohm or 4ohm drivers?

my take on the paraflex phenomenon from lurking on their FB page is that it's mostly based on apparently giving people something (the designs) for free, creating a social media community that excludes critical voices, and lots of hype and confirmation bias. in other words - a cult LOL


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Hi. good to hear your perspective. Did you notice how Sinai were powering their subs. single channel or bridged? 8ohm or 4ohm drivers?

my take on the paraflex phenomenon from lurking on their FB page is that it's mostly based on apparently giving people something (the designs) for free, creating a social media community that excludes critical voices, and lots of hype and confirmation bias. in other words - a cult LOL

Hi Snowflake, I didn't ask about amp config and impedances.  I noticed that they appeared to be using half the channels on each of two Powersoft X8 amps, so maybe one bin per channel.  To be honest I'm sure with Hugh's experience he was running them properly, and you could smell his drivers a little so they were getting some power.

Regarding the second point I fear I have noticed similar things that point towards similar conclusions, I don't like it but it is not really any of my business.  Interesting to see others in the industry developing the same conclusions though.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by lickweed lickweed wrote:

Looks like 8 x 18" vs 3 x 21"




4 minis wud smoke both of them LOL  i have heard a paraflex rig the bass was weird dont like the sound dont sound rite in my opinion Dead


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

4 minis wud smoke both of them LOL  i have heard a paraflex rig the bass was weird dont like the sound dont sound rite in my opinion Dead

A wise man would check out his adversaries before picking his battles...  However, this thread is all about the Paraflex craze and I'm pleased to see you also share my opinions on them.


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

Originally posted by lickweed lickweed wrote:

Looks like 8 x 18" vs 3 x 21"




4 minis wud smoke both of them LOL  i have heard a paraflex rig the bass was weird dont like the sound dont sound rite in my opinion Dead

I've got two 10" tapped horns that would smoke both of them and your mini's ,  totally agree about the sound of the bass, at last we are hearing some honest opinions, that's how progress is made.


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: kipman725
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 6:52pm
volume displacement of 2*15" is similar to 1*21" but the total motor mass is greater.  with 8*15" drivers it looks like RC1 just brought far more sub....   


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

volume displacement of 2*15" is similar to 1*21" but the total motor mass is greater.  with 8*15" drivers it looks like RC1 just brought far more sub....   

With the greatest of respect, the question here is not why RC1 performed so well (although I'm always happy to accept compliments), but rather why the Paraflex didn't.  For their box volume they were unimpressive on SPL and couldn't play low sub notes and distorted/coloured the sound and response was all over the place.  RC1 had plenty of SPL, hit all the lowest notes, played clean and defined and had a fairly smooth response curve, RC1 is not the problem.


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Hi. good to hear your perspective. Did you notice how Sinai were powering their subs. single channel or bridged? 8ohm or 4ohm drivers?

my take on the paraflex phenomenon from lurking on their FB page is that it's mostly based on apparently giving people something (the designs) for free, creating a social media community that excludes critical voices, and lots of hype and confirmation bias. in other words - a cult LOL

A cult that just removed a post pointing to this forum thread and then banned the guy from the Paraflex FB pages, the mind boggles.


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

volume displacement of 2*15" is similar to 1*21" but the total motor mass is greater.  with 8*15" drivers it looks like RC1 just brought far more sub....   

With the greatest of respect, the question here is not why RC1 performed so well (although I'm always happy to accept compliments), but rather why the Paraflex didn't.  For their box volume they were unimpressive on SPL and couldn't play low sub notes and distorted/coloured the sound and response was all over the place.  RC1 had plenty of SPL, hit all the lowest notes, played clean and defined and had a fairly smooth response curve, RC1 is not the problem.

Totally agree, this thread that I started was not really about how well your rig performed, it was more about how the Paraflex rig didn't, how many drivers you had or amps you had is not really the point, the point is that the Paraflex community have been banding these designs around as if they are the holy grail, even if they had the same level of out put as you my opinion would be the same regarding the missing low notes and the very odd upper notes and the general sound of the bass cabs. 


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:41pm
Concept-10, 

If anyone comes into a public group and spams by paste bombing the same message into several different comments sections (of different posts) all within the same minute or two you are going to be blocked from the group if the admins are doing their job ....  




Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:43pm
So don't bother trying to misrepresent what just happened . .


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

Concept-10, 

If anyone comes into a public group and spams by paste bombing the same message into several different comments sections (of different posts) all within the same minute or two you are going to be blocked from the group if the admins are doing their job ....  



His initial post pointing to this thread was declined so he put it on a couple of other posts, but whatever you say boss  Smile


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:54pm
I didn't see any initial post because it was blocked by our automatic filters (I just checked the group's activity log)  .... All that I saw was a flurry of obnoxious spamming in several places all within a minute or two from "Luke Page"  ....  


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

So don't bother trying to misrepresent what just happened . .

Hi MMJ, so pleased to see you are up for joining this thread.  Please see my posts above in this thread, I would be so grateful if you had any answers to make sense of what I cannot reconcile.  Indeed, if you can set us straight on these points it might save a lot of us audio professionals in the UK from losing any respect for what you have worked so hard towards, as a lot of us all have these same questions in our minds right now.  If you can't or choose not to answer them then I guess we will just have to draw our own conclusion from that accordingly.  Cheers, Jon.


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:02pm
I can make an honest assessment...
Rc1, how about you put 1 of your beloved cabs up against 1 of Huw's cabs. Same amp, same drive level?
But you wont. Cause you operate off power density and then sit here conceded like you just won a prize or something.
How bout you take that grill of your subs to expose whats really inside the cabs?


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:07pm
And even at that point, your cabs still have more cone surface area and greater motor strength then a single nlw9601.
Sounds to me like a completely one sided event meant to make you look good. Especially when you told huw what he could bring and limited him. Sounds perfectly parallel to your persona you have shown here, and on facebook.


Posted By: TheSoundGuy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:08pm
Hey Guys

I caught this post on facebook, I super enjoy shootout's but I would like to be fair here and very much show no bias to either kit on that floor - right?

Please can we start any product or brand conversation with good grounds under better or rational conditions, I say this as a loudspeaker designer and an engineer respectfully to you all.
 
Secondly if it must be done indoors it would be critical to review 1 single enclosure of each under the correct voltage for each enclosure to define sensitivity and then generate an impulse response for a more realistic A/B. No Offense but I think this post is shameful for any brand or product. Even if the left stack is loaded with 12's which I doubt it is on the Lf front of things.. it would murder that Paraflex rig in shear acoustic power density. This is very distastefully done & to do so on a public forum, cult like following lol yeah maybe the community is very helpful to others of which people genuinely appear happy with the end result and are thankful.

This is not how things are done guy's, I hope you are gentlemen enough to come forward under better conditions to present an A/B for the sake of audio in general. 


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

I can make an honest assessment...
Rc1, how about you put 1 of your beloved cabs up against 1 of Huw's cabs. Same amp, same drive level?
But you wont. Cause you operate off power density and then sit here conceded like you just won a prize or something.
How bout you take that grill of your subs to expose whats really inside the cabs?
That would not change the fact that the Paraflex cabs missed the low notes or the odd sounds in the upper bass, I was there listening to both systems,were you ?


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: carlosdelondres
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

[...]Cause you operate off power density[...]


I guess the question is, what is it that the paraflex brings to the table then, if power density is written out of the equation?


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

I can make an honest assessment...
Rc1, how about you put 1 of your beloved cabs up against 1 of Huw's cabs. Same amp, same drive level?
But you wont. Cause you operate off power density and then sit here conceded like you just won a prize or something.
How bout you take that grill of your subs to expose whats really inside the cabs?

Haha, nice try, people have been asking for years about the technology we use.  I'll add you to that list.


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:14pm
Hello Jon, 

I suppose I have some questions too .....  

Such as how did the results of supposedly not-so-serious friendly gathering of sound guys listening to music end up being weaponized into the same old couple of agenda driven UK builders bashing Paraflex cabinets yet again?     

If this was a serious competition then don't you suppose someone should have let Huw (Sinai) know about that?       

This wasn't supposed to be any kind of official clash . .

 Why was someone given the impression that it was one sort of thing when it was actually going to be another sort of thing?       
Was this simply just a miscommunication?   
Or was someone being intentionally misleading for a purpose? 

We can get into the technical aspects if you like but those other things can be addressed first . .


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:17pm
I think the one thing that is just as bad as the cult like believers of any brand or design is the ones most vocal in their hatred. In this case, it seems like the makers of the Diablo system have twice come on here just to hate on paraflex designs and don’t actually engage in any other discussions for the benefit of the community. 




Posted By: hairymonk97
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:17pm
So there was nothing obnoxious about my post!! I will copy and paste exactly what I put here:

Hey all, I run a soundsystem in the UK called
Riggertek and have also been producing cabs
for a few years for people around the UK. We
have our own unique sound system that is called
DIABLO... why am I telling you this ? To give you
some background info and so that you don't
think I'm just some I am a prised idioton the internet who has
never seen the world and just a keyboard warrior
(although some of you probably will anyway) So
this weekend RC1 and Sinai met up for an event.
I was meant to go myself but sadly could not
make it which I was massively disappointed by,
especially as I have been questioning paraflex
(along with many others) for a while now.
However after speaking to lots of people at the
event it has become apparent what a few of us
have been thinking... I've attached the
speakerplans forums for people to read/
contribute too. I'm probably going to get some
hate for this but feel like this is something
people should look into reading before building/
buying.
forum.speakerplans.com

I posted this in the group and it got declined which I thought was very odd especially as I hadn’t put anything offensive or rude. So I thought I would try it again and once again it was declined. You can go to my fb page and see the screenshot. So because of this I decided to post it on 3-4 posts of yours so people could see by which point I was banned. I have built paraflex for previous customers before and tried and tested them myself. The problem with your cult is your getting people to spend heinous amounts of cash of boxes which quite frankly are s**t for there size! As soon as anyone tries speaking out about it an army of brainwashed fanatics will come out with every exscuse under the sun as to why and you get banned or blocked!! I would be happy to put a months wages on if you put 1 RC1 box agaisnt one paraflex once again paraflex would be made to look silly. I make this assumption based on actually building and testing them myself.   


Posted By: hairymonk97
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:20pm
I’ve built and made paraflex boxes along with many others what more do you want 🤦‍♂️😂😂😂😂


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

I think the one thing that is just as bad as the cult like believers of any brand or design is the ones most vocal in their hatred. In this case, it seems like the makers of the Diablo system have twice come on here just to hate on paraflex designs and don’t actually engage in any other discussions for the benefit of the community. 



I pointed out that the cabs missed low notes and had some odd things going on in the upper bass range, that's not hatred or bashing, It's a fact that has been said by others who were actually there, as a system designer and builder I see flaws in the designs and have pointed them out and every time I get called a hater and basher, but if it makes you feel better then more power to you Smile


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CNC Cabinets


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

Hello Jon, 

I suppose I have some questions too .....  

Such as how did the results of supposedly not-so-serious friendly gathering of sound guys listening to music end up being weaponized into the same old couple of agenda driven UK builders bashing Paraflex cabinets yet again?     

If this was a serious competition then don't you suppose someone should have let Huw (Sinai) know about that?       

This wasn't supposed to be any kind of official clash . .

 Why was someone given the impression that it was one sort of thing when it was actually going to be another sort of thing?       
Was this simply just a miscommunication?   
Or was someone being intentionally misleading for a purpose? 

We can get into the technical aspects if you like but those other things can be addressed first . .

It wasn't a competition or clash, it was a friendly meet up.  In that regard I have been careful not to give any impression on social media of it being a clash, or indeed to compare rig performance at all.  I have done nothing at all negative on social media to paint the performance of Hugh or Sinai or Paraflex in a bad light, and I have no wish to in the wake of what was a very friendly and enjoyable event for all concerned.  Like you say, if it was a clash or competition then it should have been planned and announced as such.  It was not.  I was simply drawn in to this thread this morning and asked for my personal opinion, of which I could see no harm in simply giving an honest one, and I have aired my concerns and confusement.  If my concerns or opinions (which I know others share) are misguided or incorrect then this would be the perfect opportunity for you to address them if you so choose.  I have no intention of using the event last Saturday or the replies on this thread for my own gains, in fact the RC1 rig I had with me on Saturday is not available commercially for sale anyway and only goes out occasionally on one-off hires to certain events.  The subs our sister company RC Audio manufacture are far more expensive active boxes and would not be likely to compete in the market of lower budget and/or self build passive boxes anyway, so I have no commercial agenda here.


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


I pointed out that the cabs missed low notes and had some odd things going on in the upper bass range, that's not hatred or bashing, It's a fact that has been said by others who were actually there, as a system designer and builder I see flaws in the designs and have pointed them out and every time I get called a hater and basher, but if it makes you feel better then more power to you Smile

My response wasn’t aimed towards you. 


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

I can make an honest assessment...
Rc1, how about you put 1 of your beloved cabs up against 1 of Huw's cabs. Same amp, same drive level?
But you wont. Cause you operate off power density and then sit here conceded like you just won a prize or something.
How bout you take that grill of your subs to expose whats really inside the cabs?

Haha, nice try, people have been asking for years about the technology we use.  I'll add you to that list.


Hmm sounds oddly familiar...

This real simple guys. Put your money where your mouth is and do an A/B comparison. Until then, you just look like bullies to me. And i dont like bullies. 


Posted By: hairymonk97
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:34pm
The meet up was same conditions as any normal standard sound clash hence why it can be compared in this manner wether or not the 2 crews were actually advertising it as a clash or just a fun night. They took it in turns to play songs, they had same djs, was set up the same in the same room, had the same power and it’s done on box volume in which this case the paraflex were larger so there was more paraflex rig in that building that rc1, even if the pictures are deceiving  because the Paraflex’s are so deep! 


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


I pointed out that the cabs missed low notes and had some odd things going on in the upper bass range, that's not hatred or bashing, It's a fact that has been said by others who were actually there, as a system designer and builder I see flaws in the designs and have pointed them out and every time I get called a hater and basher, but if it makes you feel better then more power to you Smile

My response wasn’t aimed towards you. 

I beg to differ, I designed and built Diablo.



-------------
CNC Cabinets


Posted By: hairymonk97
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:35pm
DIABLO will finish having its upgrades and getting to its final stage within the next 2-3 months and I’ll be happy to clash any paraflex system and you can set the conditions seeing as that is the only way might actually get the followers to believe us lol 😂


Posted By: TheSoundGuy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:42pm
It would be completely bias for me to remark here - this is my point here.
Take a legitimate measurement, share the response with members of the public or it remains my system is better than yours. 

That give you soo much more grounds to say " look here" this is the on axis response done the right way.. along with 10 other key defining factors which can define if an enclosure is good or poor. 

I to have made some of the Paraflex, I also don't like them in general vs a traditional enclosure but that being 1 aspect which is "personal preference" however my measurements have shown qualitive aspects around said designs.
 
T Willy, with the greatest conviction this post is not presented correctly and my argument is not weighted in bias which I have share publicly towards Paraflex but the fact remains one must approach this authentically outside of the manner it is being presented here.

Show legitimate A/B testing to the public, that's what I want to see from people and I don't see it here at all. It's respectful, honest and the right way & holds far more weight to the other "better" product in the end.   

 
 


Posted By: hairymonk97
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:45pm
“The sound guy” fair comment, more than happy to do soon once the project is completed and will share wherever I haven’t been banned from 👍🏻


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


I beg to differ, I designed and built Diablo.


LOL Oh. So it’s you again. Your two contributions to the forum have been shitting on someone else’s design, whilst coincidentally having a design of your own you’re trying to promote Thumbs Up
I wish you all the luck with your design, you’re certainly going about business in a grown up fashion. 


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by al_x al_x wrote:

Originally posted by concept-10 concept-10 wrote:


I beg to differ, I designed and built Diablo.


LOL Oh. So it’s you again. Your two contributions to the forum have been shitting on someone else’s design, whilst coincidentally having a design of your own you’re trying to promote Thumbs Up
I wish you all the luck with your design, you’re certainly going about business in a grown up fashion. 

I am not trying to promote Diablo in any way, it was a one off design and build for a client a couple of years ago, I have not mentioned Diablo or any of my designs here, I have not shit on anything, I have pointed out that the Paraflex cabs have some issues that have been backed up by others who have also heard them, but as I previously said if you want to call me a hater then good for you :)



-------------
CNC Cabinets


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:06pm
Regarding powerdensity, I would say it is definately important.
It is a trade-off made in the design phase, the same as one could go for extra extension down low over max SPL higher up. So comparing pure volumes is definately not weird imho.


Posted By: al_x
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:07pm
I would like to hear what the silver formula sound like powered by Crests in bridge mode. Clap 




Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:11pm
STOP!  This thread is turning into everyone hating everyone!  It was about having an honest discussion about the performance of Paraflex subs.  Isn't that the kind of thing we are here for?  If everyone just wants to be rude to each other rather than discuss facts/experiences/performance of Paraflex subs then I can't be bothered with this, I'll just leave you to it.

I saw one post a short while ago about response curves, that would be a great place to start.  Has anyone got a genuine response curve for the silver formula Paraflex?  Can anyone explain the distortion/harmonics?  Can anyone answer what the primary advantages are of such a box compared with a horn or bandpass, etc?  These would be good places to start and worthy of discussion.  Perhaps I'm missing something obvious, can someone enlighten me?


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:12pm
Without the RC1 subwoofer cabinet's design being discussed we can't really have any sort of scientific discussion about how they compare with the Paraflex subs, so in terms of science this whole discussion has no value, but if I had to guess I would say we are looking at a case of DIY cabinets geared towards high efficiency driven by modern Class D high efficiency amplifiers versus a subwoofer cabinet design geared towards high power density driven by some old iron heavyweight boat anchor amps which are well known for their solid bottom end .........

How much current do you suppose was being drawn by the RC1 system at party levels as opposed to what the Sinai system is drawing from the mains? 

In other words these two subwoofer sections could have an entirely different design approach & focus, but it is all speculation when we don't know much about the RC1 subwoofers . ...

 


Posted By: RC1 Sound System
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

Without the RC1 subwoofer cabinet's design being discussed we can't really have any sort of scientific discussion about how they compare with the Paraflex subs, so in terms of science this whole discussion has no value, but if I had to guess I would say we are looking at a case of DIY cabinets geared towards high efficiency driven by modern Class D high efficiency amplifiers versus a subwoofer cabinet design geared towards high power density driven by some old iron heavyweight boat anchor amps which are well known for their solid bottom end .........

How much current do you suppose was being drawn by the RC1 system at party levels as opposed to what the Sinai system is drawing from the mains? 

In other words these two subwoofer sections could have an entirely different design approach & focus, but it is all speculation when we don't know much about the RC1 subwoofers . ...

 

Firstly, I appreciate you would need more info to directly compare the two rigs, but I have no wish to compare our rig to Hugh's rig, I do not want to start any competition between us, we both have different rigs and our respective clients are very happy with what we are both doing.
So, interestingly you concede that the old heavy amps are well known for their solid bottom end, do you think that is what is needed to improve the low end performance of the Paraflex boxes?  In your opinion would it be worth a Paraflex owner doing an A/B on lightweight/heavyweight amps?  I note another person on the thread is also mentioning the same thoughts.
To answer your question on power, we were drawing massively more power than Sinai, but the consequences of that were massively apparent in the sound.  It stands to reason that you would expect a system raising a much higher sound pressure to use much more power.  Also, of course, the class H amps are less efficient, but unless the system owner has to pay for the electric at venues that's not really an issue.
It is right that both rigs have a different design approach, but all subwoofers have the ultimate objective of producing as much good quality sub as possible, so they share the same broad objectives.


Posted By: TheSoundGuy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:24pm
Just no data to substantiate the remark or perceived finding, you might be very right in that statement but.. for the sake of engineering do it the right way!  

I personally would like to see data, I have a feeling I never will and it's kinda jumping on a a community without it.. Paraflex was disappointing and here's why with measurement to publicly share my findings because of X factors.  


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:26pm
The odd thing about this is the report about the Silver Formula C-2E missing notes? That is not the nature of the Silver Formula C-2E so this calls the conditions into question ...... .    Instead of making the mistake of hyperfocusing on the cabinet itself we can ask about what may have gone awry with the conditions..

  The most current version of the SF C-2E (which Sinai has) measure well from about 30hz right on to where Huw would have needed to cross to his 2x12 tops, even without any smoothing added to the charts there is nothing missing and there are no issues in the time domain within that range either .....   

Below is the measurement of a single cabinet outdoors, Halfspace (no smoothing applied .....  Driver isn't fully conditioned yet): 




Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by RC1 Sound System RC1 Sound System wrote:

STOP!  This thread is turning into everyone hating everyone!  It was about having an honest discussion about the performance of Paraflex subs.  Isn't that the kind of thing we are here for?  If everyone just wants to be rude to each other rather than discuss facts/experiences/performance of Paraflex subs then I can't be bothered with this, I'll just leave you to it

Exactly! This post is about sinai AND RC1 correct? Then why is it all about paraflex? Wheres the facts about RC1? Prove you wern't using power density to crush sinai and it can be settled. This gets avoided constantly and enough is enough with the bullying. People of paraflex dont step on others to achieve popularity nor do they claim to be the best. Just a different option for quality sound. But yet again here goes another shitshow post after an event. And even when huw mentioned that per RC1 request, he was limited on cabs. Was that on purpose?


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

The odd thing about this are the reports about the Silver Formula C-2E missing notes? That is not the nature of the Silver Formula C-2E so this calls the conditions into question ...... .    Instead of making the mistake of hyperfocusing on the cabinet itself we can ask about what may have gone awry with the conditions..

  The most current version of the SF C-2E (which Sinai has) measure well from about 30hz right on to where Huw would have needed to cross to his 2x12 tops, even without any smoothing added to the charts there is nothing missing and there are no issues in the time domain within that range either .....   

Below is the measurement of a single cabinet outdoors, Halfspace (no smoothing applied .....  Driver isn't fully conditioned yet): 



Looks fairly smooth, f3 of approx 45Hz and f10 approx 32Hz.
 

Any chance of some context re that measurement? Driver rated impedance, ground plane or 2 pi, distance of mic from cabinet, nearest boundary, drive voltage, rew calibrated to read accurate spl with chosen test equipment etc. 


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

The odd thing about this are the reports about the Silver Formula C-2E missing notes? That is not the nature of the Silver Formula C-2E so this calls the conditions into question ...... .    Instead of making the mistake of hyperfocusing on the cabinet itself we can ask about what may have gone awry with the conditions..

  The most current version of the SF C-2E (which Sinai has) measure well from about 30hz right on to where Huw would have needed to cross to his 2x12 tops, even without any smoothing added to the charts there is nothing missing and there are no issues in the time domain within that range either .....   

Below is the measurement of a single cabinet outdoors, Halfspace (no smoothing applied .....  Driver isn't fully conditioned yet): 



Looks fairly smooth, f3 of approx 45Hz and f10 approx 32Hz.
 

Any chance of some context re that measurement? Driver rated impedance, ground plane or 2 pi, distance of mic from cabinet, nearest boundary, drive voltage, rew calibrated to read accurate spl with chosen test equipment etc. 


Test taken at ground plane. No boundaries within 50ft of test area. Driver is the Sb Audience Nero 18SW1100d with a DCR of 5.1 ohms. Amplifier used was a single channel from a Powersoft m50q and a Midas DM16 mixer. A bluetooth connection was established from a laptop. The mic used was a UMIK1 with authentic calibration files. Drive voltage was set to 2.83V using a fluke true rms mulitmeter (model 179) on pink noise. Mic placement was exactly 1M from the front edge of the cabinet with no offset.
 


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:01pm
And for anyone who's truly interested? id be willing to share anything from the mdat file that you would like to view.


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:11pm
So in summary, if I understand it correctly, this was a soundsystem battle masquerading as a friendly gathering, the results of which (if Sinai didn't have a good showing) would be used as fuel in a petty smear & bash campaign carried out by a few of the same ole builders in The UK ..   

Now we are here responding to this garbage and we are being asked to stop?


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:20pm
If RC1 and Sinai were limited to the same current draw then how do you suppose this would have turned out?  


Posted By: kipman725
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:23pm
"Drive voltage was set to 2.83V using a fluke true rms mulitmeter (model 179) on pink noise" thats weird why not just use a sine wave?


Posted By: HeadInBins
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:25pm

RC1... your active's are high priced trash andddd I
haven't heard em for a good while but last time I listened your RC1 "ugly silver thing" the tops were muddy af.

you've literally made yourself look like an ego driven keyboard warrior that was low key proud of being louder than one of the biggest culture driving and leading rigs in the uk. (wtf have you done recently for the scene?) but you've completely ignored any real facts and stats thrown at you, but carried on yelping away. gotta say you've revived this forum though, but everyone now see's you as RC1 the ex-beloved uk mystery rig turned an old disgruntled hater (like so many others).

and we sit back and cringe at every single word you and your hater cronies try fight back with. from a neutral outside perspective (not giving a f* about either rig) im my perspective sinai will always be the head honcho for all things uk sound system culture related for a long long time, being the humble and wise and knowledge spreading guy he is... 
in comparison you won't even tell us whats in your rusty old boxes except that pro-gaming rig esque cooling contraption you've got, you just start blaring out on here how you're so shocked and confused about the para cab... when really (you need to realise this) we all see through what your really trying to get at. which was mentioned to you pretty early on.. and your plot as backfired (obviously) and we're all backing the good guys.. you guys really do look evil right now

and the worst thing is now you try flip it saying stop the hate....??? that you created?? you bloody sociopath hahah.. you get barely any bookings anymore. you're grumpy as f* and you hate that what was the new kid on the block has evolved gracefully to the ruler of the roost in his scene. everyone respects the f out of siniai as we do all the other super genius sound technicians. they guide us right.. unlike some rigs that only care for their shiny selves..

what an idiot you are. I wish you didn't start this nonsense. you were respected by many... now hated by the majority of the uk sound scene.. give it a couple more weeks of taking about how rc1 dug his own sound system grave

facepalm.


Posted By: kipman725
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:25pm
also 1m is way too close to the cab, you need to be 3x max cab dimension at least and then compensate back to 1m.  Cabs with large front baffles will not have true far field results at 1m: https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq" rel="nofollow - https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq


Posted By: goodgroove1960
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:29pm
Reading this post, does  seem like there is an agenda , just saying.



Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

"Drive voltage was set to 2.83V using a fluke true rms mulitmeter (model 179) on pink noise" thats weird why not just use a sine wave?

We can use whatever you want. But industry standard is pink or white noise that allows you to set the level consistently while playing all bands at once. Its an average of all frequencies. A sweep would be very difficult to set at exactly 2.83v unless you were using the peak/hold function. And we are not looking for a peak, but the average across all frequencies.


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:43pm
First of all, thanks for the detailed reply, any chance of sharing the mdat file? 
If not could you show the FR with 5dB vertical spacing and 20-20KHz 1/48th smoothing and gated to first boundary reflection (approx 50mS).
Also the main part of the impulse response and the GD plot.
For future tests, measuring rms voltage using a sinewave may be more accurate as pink noise varies in output level, maybe not by much over the averaging time of your meter but I haven't tried it as my fluke 25 isn't true rms so I use a 50Hz sinewave.
Also, 1M is on the close side for such a large cab but at least it should be in the right ball park.

Re the difference between the impressions of the two systems, just one dodgy cable or miss configured xover filter could have messed things up for Huw's system. 





Posted By: ali4994
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:44pm
Oh baby, this is starting to look like the scoop forums from ten years ago

My (totally worthless, non-scientific and more importantly ANECDOTAL) 2p from last weekend, and the third time I've heard the new Sinai, is that I'm fairly unimpressed with the new subs.

- First time hearing them was last NYE where I thought maybe there was some sporting restraint being shown or that it was just from having 3 bins

- Second time was subdub's last birthday for the Medi lineup where I thought van constraints might have been a factor (4 subs + 4 kicks for a big room, but an additional set-up for a second smaller room)

- Third time was last weekend with 6 subs (though opposite ends of a long room).

All three times I was waiting to finally hear what the fuss was about and it never really happened. They seemed a bit lacking in presence, warmth or pleasant "tone". Nor do they give you that knee rattling, up through your feet, sensation of some subs. You know that feeling of the bass being 'thick' or 'viscous', like you're wading through treacle? I don't get that from the new Sinai boxes unless I'm stood right in front of them. I thought that using a Sage Bass Thing tone unit would be a sure fire way to spice up more neutral sounding boxes but I guess not. They just seem kinda loud in a nondescript way. I know some of what I've mentioned is to do with perceived loudness and distortion, but even if the Paraflex subs are objectively louder (but cleaner) than some other boxes it seems like diminished returns where you're loosing a load of character.

Again, being a totally non-scientific comment this is all said with a shovel load of salt. Wading through treacle is not a scientific metric. Nor is this a knock to Huw who's clearly doing great business, has always been very helpful when I've had stupid questions and is generally a great embassador for the UK sound system scene. The new system is very good in many ways and probably lends itself to doing some of the big shows it's being booked for, but the new subs just don't seem suited (sound wise) to playing the kind of music Sinai is most often playing.


RC1 had more of what I like sound wise, but it definitely wasn't the mind bending tour de force that some people led me to believe. It was definitely more exciting sounding in the sub department, which is what you want for a dubstep night, and it was nice to meet Jon and have a brief natter about speakers.


All that said, and so as not to sound like a hater, I must say that the Paraflex midtops are very good from what I've heard. I'm seriously considering gutting the B&C drivers out of my ASS boxes to put in some Paraflex, as the 24kg weight saving per box would be vastly more practical for me and my single other crew mate. Our current boxes are not a two person lift   
Plus the output from the 1x18" C2D as a kick, that shares the same dimensions as a 1x15" Cubo Kick, is very attractive. Although I could do with hearing more of them on their own before committing. The Paraflex subs just might not be the best choice for genres like dub/steppers/dubstep. Maybe they sound brilliant playing other styles and I've just not heard it yet.

Yes this is a bit of a ramble but we're all here because we're boring bastards who like rattling on about speakers...

-------------
Cornerstone Hi-Fi


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

also 1m is way too close to the cab, you need to be 3x max cab dimension at least and then compensate back to 1m.  Cabs with large front baffles will not have true far field results at 1m: https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq" rel="nofollow - https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq


I have read this as well. This test was done with the test standard of 1W/1M or 2.83v/1M. I do agree better results can be had by increasing the distance and drive level exponentially. It is difficult to do though as it requires levels that usually piss off the neighbors within a quarter mile radius and sometimes result in the law being called. We have to work within our boundaries.


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:50pm
For REW calibration you should use the calibrate option in the 'generator' window using a sine wave.


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 10:57pm
If the RC1 subwoofer section requires an entire coal burning power plant's output to supply it then is that really so practical or superior?

If extreme power density was the goal in this competition then some of our multi-driver Paraflex CRAM! subwoofers would have been more appropriate, otherwise it is "apples to oranges" ..
 




Posted By: ali4994
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by HeadInBins HeadInBins wrote:


RC1... your active's are high priced trash

we sit back and cringe at every single word you and your hater cronies try fight back with

your plot as backfired (obviously) and we're all backing the good guys.. you guys really do look evil right now

what an idiot you are. I wish you didn't start this nonsense. you were respected by many... now hated by the majority of the uk sound scene


Crikey Mikey

Take a breath fella, this one is coming across a tad bit unhinged

-------------
Cornerstone Hi-Fi


Posted By: midas
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:08pm
Dear me. 

Two people turn up with different sound systems, placed in the same room.

Guess what, they didnt sound the same they sounded different. 

Shock horror. Who would have thought. 


-------------
In bass no one can hear you scream!


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

"Drive voltage was set to 2.83V using a fluke true rms mulitmeter (model 179) on pink noise" thats weird why not just use a sine wave?

We can use whatever you want. But industry standard is pink or white noise that allows you to set the level consistently while playing all bands at once. Its an average of all frequencies. A sweep would be very difficult to set at exactly 2.83v unless you were using the peak/hold function. And we are not looking for a peak, but the average across all frequencies.


Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

Originally posted by kipman725 kipman725 wrote:

also 1m is way too close to the cab, you need to be 3x max cab dimension at least and then compensate back to 1m.  Cabs with large front baffles will not have true far field results at 1m: https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq" rel="nofollow - https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5aa4a25261feb10004121e18?_k=mlzekq


I have read this as well. This test was done with the test standard of 1W/1M or 2.83v/1M. I do agree better results can be had by increasing the distance and drive level exponentially. It is difficult to do though as it requires levels that usually piss off the neighbors within a quarter mile radius and sometimes result in the law being called. We have to work within our boundaries.


I've pointed this out before, but these posts confirm that you haven’t read or understood the relevant testing standards from the IEC or AES.

Your calibration method is far from standard. Like kipman, I'm confused why you'd use a pink noise stimulus (periodic or pseudorandom? What crest factor? What averaging time?) to determine output voltage, then use a logarithmic sine sweep stimulus based process like REW's acoustic response measurement.

It doesn't represent the sensitivity or frequency response testing processes used at any manufacturer, acoustics lab or trade publication that I've seen. Same for measuring at a 1-metre distance on such a large acoustic device, at low frequencies.

You're also likely to overload the microphone capsule on these inexpensive mics, and introduce distortion into the data at such distances. Many of them use the same capsule, which has 3% THD at 130 dB linear SPL at 1 kHz. That further compounds the issues with the screenshots of responses shown.

Measuring the input voltage required to generate a given voltage RMS output of an amplifier is frequency independent, at the test levels needed for the vast majority of cases. Unless the amplifier is faulty, or a terrible design, the frequency response should be suitably linear.

You would do well to read a few Production Partner "im Test" articles, Struck & Temme's paper about pseudo-anechoic measurements from the late 80s, one of several discussions on AudioScienceReview, Keele papers about making nearfield measurements for spliced response curves.

It's not about 'better' results but ones that accurately represent the device under test.



The rest of this thread is as expected, on several fronts


Posted By: vertx
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:39pm
This AES paper (I've posted before) may be appropriate for this thread and some of the questions around why the quarter wave designs may sound the way they do. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJ06zwwOFmJIcNhJP6DEPeMqa8pnnKbS/view?fbclid=IwAR38IOcXUXSStuqE0rV3pZq_zPjf8N-GP3rEnf5WThr-S7-RARZ5_mNirUo" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJ06zwwOFmJIcNhJP6DEPeMqa8pnnKbS/view?fbclid=IwAR38IOcXUXSStuqE0rV3pZq_zPjf8N-GP3rEnf5WThr-S7-RARZ5_mNirUo


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:49pm
Vertx, 
  That paper doesn't apply here. 


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by vertx vertx wrote:

This AES paper (I've posted before) may be appropriate for this thread and some of the questions around why the quarter wave designs may sound the way they do. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJ06zwwOFmJIcNhJP6DEPeMqa8pnnKbS/view?fbclid=IwAR38IOcXUXSStuqE0rV3pZq_zPjf8N-GP3rEnf5WThr-S7-RARZ5_mNirUo" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NJ06zwwOFmJIcNhJP6DEPeMqa8pnnKbS/view?fbclid=IwAR38IOcXUXSStuqE0rV3pZq_zPjf8N-GP3rEnf5WThr-S7-RARZ5_mNirUo


As with most of Scott’s stuff, this is a great read but it isn’t an AES paper. Scott just shows that he’s an AES member in the footer. You can be an AES member too, it just means paying some dues to access the library of papers, journals, standards, events, society meetings and Discord channel.


Posted By: T Willy
Date Posted: 14 November 2022 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

First of all, thanks for the detailed reply, any chance of sharing the mdat file? 
If not could you show the FR with 5dB vertical spacing and 20-20KHz 1/48th smoothing and gated to first boundary reflection (approx 50mS).
Also the main part of the impulse response and the GD plot.
For future tests, measuring rms voltage using a sinewave may be more accurate as pink noise varies in output level, maybe not by much over the averaging time of your meter but I haven't tried it as my fluke 25 isn't true rms so I use a 50Hz sinewave.
Also, 1M is on the close side for such a large cab but at least it should be in the right ball park.

Re the difference between the impressions of the two systems, just one dodgy cable or miss configured xover filter could have messed things up for Huw's system. 



 Absolutely shoot me your email in pm. Ill send it over. And to clarify, im still learning with rew and among other things. So this may have been done incorrectly. It appeared to be quite parallel when over layed to the hornresp sim. Nonetheless we can take more response tests. So look at it as a guideline rather then all inclusive. Im also humble enough to take my lickings and improve from it. Its how we learn.


Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 12:04am
Originally posted by HeadInBins HeadInBins wrote:


RC1... your active's are high priced trash andddd I
haven't heard em for a good while but last time I listened your RC1 "ugly silver thing" the tops were muddy af.

you've literally made yourself look like an ego driven keyboard warrior that was low key proud of being louder than one of the biggest culture driving and leading rigs in the uk. (wtf have you done recently for the scene?) but you've completely ignored any real facts and stats thrown at you, but carried on yelping away. gotta say you've revived this forum though, but everyone now see's you as RC1 the ex-beloved uk mystery rig turned an old disgruntled hater (like so many others).

and we sit back and cringe at every single word you and your hater cronies try fight back with. from a neutral outside perspective (not giving a f* about either rig) im my perspective sinai will always be the head honcho for all things uk sound system culture related for a long long time, being the humble and wise and knowledge spreading guy he is... 
in comparison you won't even tell us whats in your rusty old boxes except that pro-gaming rig esque cooling contraption you've got, you just start blaring out on here how you're so shocked and confused about the para cab... when really (you need to realise this) we all see through what your really trying to get at. which was mentioned to you pretty early on.. and your plot as backfired (obviously) and we're all backing the good guys.. you guys really do look evil right now

and the worst thing is now you try flip it saying stop the hate....??? that you created?? you bloody sociopath hahah.. you get barely any bookings anymore. you're grumpy as f* and you hate that what was the new kid on the block has evolved gracefully to the ruler of the roost in his scene. everyone respects the f out of siniai as we do all the other super genius sound technicians. they guide us right.. unlike some rigs that only care for their shiny selves..

what an idiot you are. I wish you didn't start this nonsense. you were respected by many... now hated by the majority of the uk sound scene.. give it a couple more weeks of taking about how rc1 dug his own sound system grave

facepalm.

I must admit Huw seems like a really good guy I don't want this to be read like an attack ,but the only thing that he is head honcho is of tooting his own horn . 
The scoop stack before was the best thing ever and now this rig is the best thing ever , great bussines he's running and he comes off humble well enough times but in the end it's bussines.
 Also you just come off as a complete idiot with post , Jon was as polite and we'll outspoken as it gets you just pooped up the thread. 


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 12:07am
Vertx and Toasty, 

Scott is great, but there are problems with what this paper implies and he and I have already talked about it ....   

Our development community has put time and effort into improving matters in the time domain, it had already been addressed before the paper was published .... 

  


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 12:19am
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

Vertx and Toasty, 

Scott is great, but there are problems with what this paper implies and he and I have already talked about it ....   

Our development community has put time and effort into improving matters in the time domain, it has been addressed .... 

  


What does it imply, in your opinion? And what was the result of your conversation about that topic? It seems weird to speak for someone else without actually stating what was said.

This kind of cryptic “if only you could see behind the curtain” posting is just as frustrating in relation to Paraflex as it is when it comes to scoops

As I’ve offered in those circles, have mics, will travel. But that comes with caveats of providing raw data and honest opinions.

I would find it interesting to compare responses both objectively and subjectively within different limits. Those are covered in several common tests, such as distortion-limited maximum SPL curves. Even Anselm’s reviews in Production Partner or Sound & Recording magazines include some subjective listening comments. It’s just a shame when that’s all there is.


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 1:00am
I didn't speak for someone else in this case ... I said we have have discussed it, meaning I had a conversation with him about it, which is me speaking for myself (I wasn't suggesting that he necessarily agreed with me LOL) ... 

Not trying to be cryptic about anything here...   

What does the paper imply? In my opinion it is a statement piece about a progression of time domain performance degradation across the examples of cabinet designs given in the paper, however, i know for a fact that this progression is not set in stone, and this is based upon measurements of our own efforts to improve performance in the time domain.   

  


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 1:23am
There is a lot to be said for implementation, and the Silver Formula C-2E (which Sinai i working with) is a good example of a Paraflex subwoofer with solid & well-behaved performance in the Time Domain ....  

Here is the Group Delay:



Phase Response:



Waterfall chart:



As you can see there are no major anomalies, nasties or weirdness in the Time Domain .....    This is not a speculation or simulation, this is the real deal measured in the real world.. 


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 1:50am
  Earlier in this discussion someone had mentioned distortion, and I can say that Paraflex cabinets generally have low distortion but there have been exceptions when the driver's cone wasn't up to the task .. 

Here (below) is the measured distortion of the Paraflex Silver Formula C-2E loaded with SB Audience Nero 18SW1100d:   

 
Might it look different with the 21NLW9601 driver?  Yes possibly  ........     Might it look different at higher power levels?  Sure .. 

If someone is looking for the sort of coloration added by Scoops then they aren't going to find that in this cabinet ... Subjectively these have a different sort of character...

Subjective reports can be nice (or not) and sometimes useful (or not) but we need real data to keep us grounded .. 

GOOD NEWS:  The microphone does not appear to be overloaded in this measurement (microphone overload was a concern someone expressed earlier).
 


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 7:50am
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

There is a lot to be said for implementation, and the Silver Formula C-2E (which Sinai i working with) is a good example of a Paraflex subwoofer with solid & well-behaved performance in the Time Domain ....  

Here is the Group Delay:



Phase Response:



Waterfall chart:



As you can see there are no major anomalies, nasties or weirdness in the Time Domain .....    This is not a speculation or simulation, this is the real deal measured in the real world.. 

Group Delay plot:
8mS of GD at approx 95Hz and other ups and downs, GD wanders somewhat in the cabs passband compared to a reflex cab or there are boundary reflections interfering with the data, 20mS GD at the low corner is in line with a slow roll off in the FR.

Phase Response:
Looks like you have the impulse inverted.

Waterfall Chart:
Is all but useless for looking at the time domain as shown, rise time way too long and time range setting is way too long, try a rise time of 0.5 and a time range of 50mS or less, CSD mode and 1/48th smoothed. Better yet could you show it as a burst decay instead, 1/6th octave, 101 slices, 20 span periods.


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 7:52am
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

  Earlier in this discussion someone had mentioned distortion, and I can say that Paraflex cabinets generally have low distortion but there have been exceptions when the driver's cone wasn't up to the task .. 

Here (below) is the measured distortion of the Paraflex Silver Formula C-2E loaded with SB Audience Nero 18SW1100d:   

 
Might it look different with the 21NLW9601 driver?  Yes possibly  ........     Might it look different at higher power levels?  Sure .. 

If someone is looking for the sort of coloration added by Scoops then they aren't going to find that in this cabinet ... Subjectively these have a different sort of character...

Subjective reports can be nice (or not) and sometimes useful (or not) but we need real data to keep us grounded .. 

GOOD NEWS:  The microphone does not appear to be overloaded in this measurement (microphone overload was a concern someone expressed earlier).
 

If that is the calibrated 1M distortion plot, the cursor is at 100Hz and signal chain is clean, then this cab is clearly a distortion monster.


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 8:48am
Originally posted by T Willy T Willy wrote:

Originally posted by fatfreddiescat fatfreddiescat wrote:

First of all, thanks for the detailed reply, any chance of sharing the mdat file? 
If not could you show the FR with 5dB vertical spacing and 20-20KHz 1/48th smoothing and gated to first boundary reflection (approx 50mS).
Also the main part of the impulse response and the GD plot.
For future tests, measuring rms voltage using a sinewave may be more accurate as pink noise varies in output level, maybe not by much over the averaging time of your meter but I haven't tried it as my fluke 25 isn't true rms so I use a 50Hz sinewave.
Also, 1M is on the close side for such a large cab but at least it should be in the right ball park.

Re the difference between the impressions of the two systems, just one dodgy cable or miss configured xover filter could have messed things up for Huw's system. 



 Absolutely shoot me your email in pm. Ill send it over. And to clarify, im still learning with rew and among other things. So this may have been done incorrectly. It appeared to be quite parallel when over layed to the hornresp sim. Nonetheless we can take more response tests. So look at it as a guideline rather then all inclusive. Im also humble enough to take my lickings and improve from it. Its how we learn.

Have PM'd you, missed your post until just now.


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 12:31pm
These paraflex guys really are like the Scientologists of the audio world LOL

As soon as any criticism arises, they call people evil and throw incoherent data around.

RC1 is undeniably an impressive sounding system and they have a history outplaying  many highly regarding systems throughout the years (other than my own of course, coz we have the most best speakerz eva). Be that due to 5000 1 inch speakers per box or because they rub essential oils on the boxes, who knows?!

Sinai do a huge amount of events, get rebooked and make lots of promotors/DJs/crowds happy so therefore are one of the most successful systems in the UK and rightly so. Do they have the heaviest bass per cm2, probably not but I have not heard them claim this and that is not the only factor in being a good soundsystem!

Diversity and appreciation of different designs is (alongside friendly competition) what  makes this stuff fun. So when the evangelical paraflex brigade start setting up new profiles to hurl abuse around, it really is embarrassing. 

I've heard paraflex boxes sound acceptable, I have heard them sound massively underwhelming but they certainly are not going to make every other design available defunct.





Posted By: RiddimKid
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 1:46pm
Oh how I love this Clap

Reminds me of how speakerplans used to be when I first joined in 2006 Clap


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 1:59pm
not sure I understand the comments about power density. putting two 15 " drivers in a cab is pretty standard. if you put a single 21 in a huge box and it doesn't beat the 15s then it's a fair criticism that volume for volume it doesn't do the business.

yes there are other legitimate design criteria than output per volume - efficiency is important for restricted power situations, and directivity is important. does this C2E design have exceptional efficiency or directivity?


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 2:06pm
The data is coherent, Paraflex cabinets aren't "distortion monsters", this was hardly a "Diversity and appreciation of different designs" when the first thing I hear about it is some idiot from that crew blasting our public group in many multiple comments sections all at once with the same pasted message which was essentially gloating about Sinai's loss as an attempt to take a shot at us while promoting themselves ......   That is not "friendly" behavior .. 

 So if you want to talk about abuses that is where it started and if you think we don't have a right to defend ourselves then think again ...     

We have the right to respond and it doesn't make us "Scientology" or a cult . ... 

   Someone made an account?  So what ....    That stretch is "embarrassing"

Acting obnoxious in a Facebook group will likely get you booted out of the group which is totally expected, and that guy went well out of his way to make it happen, then feigns being wronged somehow..   


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by RiddimKid RiddimKid wrote:

Oh how I love this Clap

Reminds me of how speakerplans used to be when I first joined in 2006 Clap





-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:



We have the right to respond and it doesn't make us "Scientology" or a cult . ... 



absolutely everyone has the right to respond - maybe just think about the way you go about it. I made one of the comments that has probably offended you but I didn't pull my opinion out my backside - it's based on several months of observation and interaction with people on your FB group. These paraflex designs might turn out to be great - but in the absence of good measurements or A/B testing the hype seems a bit overblown.


Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

The data is coherent, Paraflex cabinets aren't "distortion monsters", this was hardly a "Diversity and appreciation of different designs" when the first thing I hear about it is some idiot from that crew blasting our public group in many multiple comments sections all at once with the same pasted message which was essentially gloating about Sinai's loss as an attempt to take a shot at us while promoting themselves ......   That is not "friendly" behavior .. 

 So if you want to talk about abuses that is where it started and if you think we don't have a right to defend ourselves then think again ...     

We have the right to respond and it doesn't make us "Scientology" or a cult . ... 

   Someone made an account?  So what ....    That stretch is "embarrassing"

Acting obnoxious in a Facebook group will likely get you booted out of the group which is totally expected, and that guy went well out of his way to make it happen, then feigns being wronged somehow..   

Over 6% 3rd harmonic distortion, 86dB@1M is very high, I would expect to be seeing way less than 0.5%, more like 0.05% at that level so either there is a serious measurement problem, the driver is defective, panel resonating or some other issue. But those results indicate monster distortion with regards to 86dB@1M. It may not be the cab but if I were you I would be trying to work out what is causing it. 




Posted By: fatfreddiescat
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 2:55pm
PS, I only mentioned it as monster distortion because of your comment stating it was low with respect to the graph you have shown. I also miss quoted it as 86dB level when it is showing as 82.6dB.


Posted By: sarsen1
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

The data is coherent, Paraflex cabinets aren't "distortion monsters", this was hardly a "Diversity and appreciation of different designs" when the first thing I hear about it is some idiot from that crew blasting our public group in many multiple comments sections all at once with the same pasted message which was essentially gloating about Sinai's loss as an attempt to take a shot at us while promoting themselves ......   That is not "friendly" behavior .. 

 So if you want to talk about abuses that is where it started and if you think we don't have a right to defend ourselves then think again ...     

We have the right to respond and it doesn't make us "Scientology" or a cult . ... 

   Someone made an account?  So what ....    That stretch is "embarrassing"

Acting obnoxious in a Facebook group will likely get you booted out of the group which is totally expected, and that guy went well out of his way to make it happen, then feigns being wronged somehow..   

Hey embarrassment is subjective so you might be right, you might be wrong, but without good data on the greater source of embarrassment, who knows?! LOL


Posted By: tmg
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 3:37pm
Let's be honest. There's no such thing as a fair fight here. Box volume for box volume RC1 might take it, driver for driver Sinai might be better, RMS for RMS possibly RC1, power draw for power draw possibly Sinai. If it's truly a friendly meet then the two sounds should have a conversation and bring the right amount for about the same output. Regardless of how many boxes or drivers that is. If it's truly a clash then that's a different story. 

Its nice to get a few different sounds in one room and have a listen and draw our own opinions from that. I've heard both systems on a number of occasions and have my own opinions. But it's all preference at the end of the day and it's easy to read clashes, meets, or test results one way or the other to suit your own agenda.

Huw obviously likes to do lots and lots of gigs at cheap rates and so needs a system that is weight and power efficient to keep costs down. Jon obviously likes to blow everyone away with sheer output volume and isn't concerned with weight or power draw. Both get what they want and seem to do ok out of it, so good on them


-------------
http://www.nslproductions.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.nslproductions.com


Posted By: MMJ of HOQS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 3:51pm
Snowflake,  
   Sure, there are times when a softer approach is preferable but what I am seeing here is an obvious & crude attempt to aggressively capitalize on a poor showing...   People keep trying to paint this as "friendly" but this is not what friends do....    It is in poor taste..  Poor form .... 

 Anyway, there have been a lot of cabinet measurements but more data is always welcome and we collect it where we can........  Not long ago "Plippie Plop" started a great post about measurements and we followed up by adding lots and lots of charts in the comments section for many of our cabinets ....    Be sure to check it out when you have a moment (a link to it can be found in the technical section of our "Guides").. .

So there is not an "absence" of good measurements or reports by any means, we do have some, but yes, we would like to have more .....   These things take time for us .....   

Skeptics will play a game where they keep claiming that the data isn't valid or up to their standards for whatever reason and will have you bending over backwards trying to appease (that happened last time there was a dumpsterfire such as this one on the Speakerplans forum.... I am not going to bother trying to figure out what the humidity, temperature, air pressure, and the height of the grass in the field was on the day the measurements was taken months ago) . .

If someone is excited about these designs then apparently what we have been working on has some appeal..    It is interesting to see how some people are supportive of this while others have been rather nasty about it..  


Posted By: APSUS
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 4:57pm
I remember when people would bash the scoop forum, this here is the ultimate “handbag” fight. Other members would jump into the scoop section and leave comments to make them (scoop fans) feel stupid. Well, here we have it, the fighting has left the ghettos of the scoop forum. 


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 5:08pm
Think most of us don’t care about a “clash” or any type of comparison to rc1 (which isn’t a free or even commercially available design) but moreso to why 6 very expensive 21” drivers in massive boxes with plenty power to them were apparently underwhelming. 


Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 15 November 2022 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by MMJ of HOQS MMJ of HOQS wrote:

Snowflake,  
   Sure, there are times when a softer approach is preferable but what I am seeing here is an obvious & crude attempt to aggressively capitalize on a poor showing...   People keep trying to paint this as "friendly" but this is not what friends do....    It is in poor taste..  Poor form .... 

 Anyway, there have been a lot of cabinet measurements but more data is always welcome and we collect it where we can........  Not long ago "Plippie Plop" started a great post about measurements and we followed up by adding lots and lots of charts in the comments section for many of our cabinets ....    Be sure to check it out when you have a moment (a link to it can be found in the technical section of our "Guides").. .

So there is not an "absence" of good measurements or reports by any means, we do have some, but yes, we would like to have more .....   These things take time for us .....   

Skeptics will play a game where they keep claiming that the data isn't valid or up to their standards for whatever reason and will have you bending over backwards trying to appease (that happened last time there was a dumpsterfire such as this one on the Speakerplans forum.... I am not going to bother trying to figure out what the humidity, temperature, air pressure, and the height of the grass in the field was on the day the measurements was taken months ago) . .

If someone is excited about these designs then apparently what we have been working on has some appeal..    It is interesting to see how some people are supportive of this while others have been rather nasty about it..  


I had already looked at a lot of the material available and had another look just now. I've yet to see a single far-field measurement. of the half dozen I've seen most say that they were taken at 1m and some don't say at all. Measuring a sub at 1m is such a basic error that its easy to assume that every other possible measurement error could have been made. Lots of us on here design stuff - and we measure our prototypes. And when someone points out that our measurements could be done better we try to do them again.

you either need to be confident making calibrated measurements as others have described, Or you need to measure a known commercial design with the same set-up and do a comparative evaluation. preferably do both so you can tell if something isn't right.



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