Getting a warm sound? (with simulations)
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Forum Name: Scoops
Forum Description: One scoop or two ;-)
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107544
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Topic: Getting a warm sound? (with simulations)
Posted By: Twinkle
Subject: Getting a warm sound? (with simulations)
Date Posted: 08 December 2022 at 9:27pm
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Hi! My name is Axel. This in my first post on this forum. Now we are planning to build four subwoofers for our sound system. Our ideal is a warm and musical sound. We play mainly Roots. We have never built subwoofers before. We are starting off with some simulations before building prototypes. My friends and me would be grateful for some advice on what to look for in simulation results. What makes a subwoofer sound warmer or harder? Here are my simulation results for a group of four in Superscoopers: PD1850:  Fane Colossus 18-1000:  The main difference between results seems to be a peak around 40 Hz and another one above 80 Hz with the PD1850. I also see this in simulations with other cabs. Is that where the hardness comes from? In the simulation the Fane 1000 has a fairly flat frequency response. I don't know how precise the simulation is. Can people who have used these drivers confirm what the simulation shows? Any other reasons for a driver to sound hard? I would guess distortion from driver nonlinearities makes a big difference. Rog Mogale designed the Superscooper to sound best in stacks of more than four. What I did is probably not optimal. Here are the input parameters I used: PD1850:  Fane 18-1000:  I used the parameters for the Superscooper that Bitzo posted in this thread: https://forum.speakerplans.com/database-simulation_topic16974_post165195.html I set N=4 and multiplied volume and area by four. Power for each driver was 1000 W. Maximum displacement 12 mm. I'm reading my way through Beranek's book and some articles now. I'm still struggling to understand things. English is not my first language so what I'm writing might look a bit strange in some places. I wish to thank the people who supplied their plans and speaker data and people who contribute to the discussions on this forum. This is an awesome place. Best wishes
Axel |
Replies:
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 08 December 2022 at 10:45pm
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Starting with simulations of Scoops, is the worst thing you can do. Suggest you start reading the Scoop forum, from the very first post. You will learn the tricks and Scoops people have used, to get PD1850 to sound very warm and round. Standard Superscooper 18, is one one of the worst Scoops, for a PD1850. Reading the ancient Scoop forum posts, would have told you this. Regards ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: vertx
Date Posted: 09 December 2022 at 2:55am
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A warm sound to me means more about overall balance and tonality of the system, in addition to controlled dispersion with rising freq i.e using the fletcher munson equal loudness contours, and less about what enclosures you're using. For sub drivers, you might find drivers with good BL over Xmax to sound more musical (according to the people who make em). |
Posted By: Randy Bohannon
Date Posted: 09 December 2022 at 4:51am
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The quantity and character of a subwoofer’s distortion determines how “warm” it plays, unless we’re talking about the overall tonality of the system, which depends on more than the just the sub. For subs in any event, you want a moderate amount of low order distortion and very little higher order distortion. Most people don’t like very low distortion subwoofers, incidentally. Particularly below about 40Hz around 10%THD is about my non-audio friends’ sweet spot. Less and they complain the bass isn’t loud and warm enough… :D
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Posted By: Randy Bohannon
Date Posted: 09 December 2022 at 5:07am
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I’ve found Hornresp to be a little off with compound horns, I’m learning Akabak at the moment. It is by all accounts more flexible but the learning curve is quite steep. http://www.randteam.de/AKABAK3/" rel="nofollow - http://www.randteam.de/AKABAK3/
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 09 December 2022 at 12:13pm
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Thank you very much for answering my post. I'm especially happy that each of you is addressing the subject from a different angle. Levyte, I was hoping for a reply like yours. People on this forum have described the sound of the PD1850 in Superscoopers as hard or boomy (though some seem to like it). Thank you for confirming that. How much can I rely on simulations? Are they accurate enough that if I see strong resonances like the ones in my picture I can expect a certain sound? Or is a simulation too far off reality to make guesses? People report that sometimes they had a speaker that looked great in simulation but they were disappointed by the results from the real speaker. I guess I could live with that as long as simulation got me into the right direction. Vertx, thank you for pointing out that a warm sound comes from the way a whole system plays together. What do you mean by dispersion? I found that the bass in sound systems can sound very different from system to system. Some sound systems have beautiful strong basses but I wouldn't say they sound very deep. Is that from an emphasis on upper bass? Yes, there are some speakers with fairly constant Bl over a wide range of excursion. Compliance is less constant. Would you say a change of compliance will cause harsh distortion inside the range where Bl is still high? Randy, this is excellent information. So something with moderate low order distortion would be good. Thank you very much. From what I hear, drivers in subwoofers can exceed 10% of distortion more quickly than I would have guessed. Going lower might be difficult. I don't wish to criticise how other sound systems sound. One of the good things about Reggae sound systems and about scoops is the variety people achieve with a similar kind of setup. I love hearing sound systems who sound a lot different from the sound I'm going for. I started reading this forum from end to end in early autumn. There are a lot of posts I don't understand due to my lack of information and experience. I appreciate any input you can give me. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 December 2022 at 8:34pm
With regard to Scoops, simulations are a waste of time. Read the Scoop forum, to find nuggets of info, from experienced Scoop system owners, not armchair experts, who never go to Reggae gigs, but ready to quote research papers and simulations. Sound you will get, depends on combining drivers with right cabs, then suitable amp for the drivers. Then you need quality pre-amp, to shape/add desirable sub warmth. I prefer bass pre-amp AND LMS. Above is just the start, no sims in sight !!! ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Twinkle wrote:Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 10 December 2022 at 11:02am
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Hmm. So Randy Bohannon had some simulation results that had at least some resemblance with reality while Levyte357 and others found that results are often way off. I will definitely listen to what people tell me about their experiences with scoops. Here's a question that keeps bugging me: Some people love scoops for their warmth and others love them for their grunt. People design their speakers to give them the character they prefer but I don't understand why both things are possible with the same type of loudspeaker. Now I found a post by Disco Stu in this thread: https://forum.speakerplans.com/what-is-the-fault-with-scoops_topic12733_post118339.html It's the eighth post. He writes that the direct radiating output from a scoop gives audible distortion that emphasizes the upper bass and the horn output gives a deep tone. Are there scoop designs that lean more into one or the other direction? Or is there a way to modify a design to make it balance direct and horn output differently without getting a bumpy frequency response? We are using a JBL DSC260 crossover/limiter/eq that we like very much. We also have a parametric EQ we haven't tried out on our sound system yet. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 10 December 2022 at 11:32am
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There are existing Scoop designs, when used with compatible modern Scoop drivers, will give you all the warmth, efficiency, low end extension you need, if also using bass pre amp. Find the free Mykey Wattco design on here. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 10 December 2022 at 2:15pm
Spoken like someone who, unfortunately, correlates their inability to understand what’s occurring acoustically to using models properly. Scoops are not some magical device that defies all logic and >100 years of research and understanding by people far, far smarter than us. In fact, the transmission line is one of the most well-understood concepts in sound. As I’ve stated many times on here, the bigger problem is that people seem to rarely build what they sim. It’s a cyclical process, refine the model based on what you build, and vice versa. No model will tell you everything that’s happening acoustically, but that’s part of understanding their limitations - and advantages. It’s a shame some folk have to make out like you need to imbibe some ancient knowledge like a Indiana Jones villain to enjoy them. Not everyone has a ton of money, time, wood or access to dances & boxes to work purely on trial & error. To the OP, you can observe the output of the front radiator and horn elements separately in Hornresp. That’s quite handy. Pick a box & driver combo you have access to listen & hopefully, measure even the electrical impedance of, and work on making the model fit what’s been built. Then start to correlate behaviours you see in the sim (excursion, group delay, phase angle, magnitude response, etc) with what you hear that you like and don’t like. Or just spend a fortune on loads of drivers, boxes, and post 100s of winking emojis for years 
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Posted By: Randy Bohannon
Date Posted: 10 December 2022 at 3:13pm
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+1 on the above, there are indeed two approaches. If you have a technical bent and take the time to understand the models underlying the simulations, including some maths, then you can use the models WITHIN their limitations and with an awareness of their shortcomings. The other way is a sort of trial and error, myth and legend type approach will can also lead to good stuff. Personally, I’d rather take the time and understand the models, to not do so in this day and age with the knowledge and tech freely available doesn’t make sense to me. It really does help to start at the very beginning: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/electrical-rlc-model-speaker-parameters-vallabha-hampiholi" rel="nofollow - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/electrical-rlc-model-speaker-parameters-vallabha-hampiholi If you know how a resistor, capacitor and inductor work the T/S parameters start to make much more sense. All roads lead to Rome, in short, i however would rather not take the one via 19th century Tibet however… :D
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 11 December 2022 at 12:38am
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Again, I wish to thank each of you who has given me advice here. It's good to hear from all the different kinds of experience you've had. I don't know how to interpret the mocking in this forum. I hope everything is in good spirit. Levyte, thank you very much for recommending the Wattco Scoop to me. It's intriguing to use something that's both loud and deep-sounding. I'm undecided about a combination that needs equalisation. We are a loose group of people who will take turns using our stack. It would be good to have something foolproof. Randy, thank you for encouraging me to use a circuit simulator. I'm starting to write a netlist now. Some time ago Levyte357 wrote that drivers like the Fane 18XB or the Colossus 18-1000 will work fine in medium to large chamber scoops. People report they had good results with designs like Mykey's Rhino Mk2 and the Eminence scoop. These drivers get criticised for being less loud than higher Bl ones. We play outdoors in front of less than 100 people. We hope we will have an audience of 300 people from time to time. The 18XB doesn't have a lot of xmax and the 18-1000 is out of production. The RNC LF18X401 has parameters that are almost identical to the Fane 18-1000. The only difference is that VAS is higher (274 instead of 238). Does the change in VAS make a great difference? Last week I spoke to a man who designs loudspeaker chassis. He told me no, you can't rely on VAS anyway. What do you say? Vance Dickason measured the LF18X401 in detail. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/51827472/um12-22-voicecoil-review-by-vance-dickason-dayton-audio From the article, two samples after break-in, measured two ways: fs 27.8 Hz ... 31.8 Hz, Re 5.6 ... 5.7 Sd 0.123 Qms 3.76 ... 5.05 one method, 4.47 ... 5.83 other method Qes 0.28 ... 0.34 Qts 0.26 ... 0.32 VAS 247.9 ...288.2 one method, 268.3 ... 328.4 other method SPL@2.83 V 95.5 dB/95.8 dB depending on method xmax 11 mm Bl around 26 at resting position. Datasheet says 26.5 Bl is fairly constant, Cms and Le are not. xlim is 50 mm. The LF18X401 is also pretty cheap here (290 EUR). We don't make any money with our music so we don't have much we can spend. There's almost no information on that driver on the scoop forum. People seem to like it in reflex enclosures. Would you recommend that driver to us? We are planning to build two prototypes that can be easily modified and start from there. Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 11 December 2022 at 12:10pm
Fane 18XB/Fane 18-1000 these days, are classed as a mediocre solution. In the UK, we have easy access to some of the best drivers optimal for Scoops, in the World. In my opinion, if you have optimal Scoop/driver combination, then 4x Scoops should easily cover 400 people with sub, 40-90hz. Drivers that typically meet this mark, have BL>=30, Xmax >=10mm. Which amplifiers do you intend to use on sub? Don't make the mistake of buying expensive drivers, and powering them with amplifiers, which cannot provide real 2kwpc @ 4 ohms, @ 40hz. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: vertx
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 2:07am
So most people seem to do this 'by ear' but basically having the right balance between subs and low-mids and an overall gradual trend downward in SPL as frequency rises. The on top of this, having constant coverage/dispersion pattern as frequency rises. Examples of controlled dispersion/coverage pattern can be found in speakers like the Danely stuff and Void Incubus and other point source systems.
Visually you can match what you hear on different systems to their directively plots which look similar to this. You want there to be no kinks and outliers both on and off-axis. note this is only for frequencies for which you can 'locate' so doesn't count as much for things under 150hz far as I can tell :  In regard to systems you;ve heard not going very deep my opinion on that is that most people go for SPL over low frequency when it comes to scoops and horns on the low end, the lower they need to go they need to get much bigger in enclosure size. My preference is direct radiating enclosures tuned between 30 and 40hz. I hear about people running root/reggae/dub systems with savage highpasses even up to 40hz 48db/oct and I'm sure it works for that kind of music but for me if a system doesn't accentuate between 30-40hz as the 'loudest' part of the system (fletcher munson equal loudness contours once more: https://blog.landr.com/fletcher-munson-curves/) then it's missing something. I run only 24db BW highpass from 24hz up depending on the enclosure tuning (for ported cabs). Having said that, the trade off is requiring more subwoofers, high power amps, and more available power to draw from, and using ported enclosures tuned low. Ideally I want to be hitting the lowest note in this track at full-power without it sounding 'missing' or dipping down in perceived level, and without and anything breaking i.e hitting xmax or enclosure vent velocity limits or popping an amp or circuit breaker .Bear in mind I'm only ever doing <= 350ppl gigs indoors and I don't need 150db in the low end. There was a guy on one of the fb groups recently who tuned Freddies in Ibiza and said something (from memory) about them liking a warmer sound which to him ment crossing the subs a little higher. My take on that was with that system in those rooms having the extra gain between 80-160hz may change the balance enough to warm it up a bit - but this is purely based on my speculation of a few comments/posts I could be quite off the mark here and I'm not about to go cross my own subs up at 160-180hz based off that. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 6:35am
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Thank you very much for your replies. I live in Germany. We have a Proline 3000 for our subs. Vertx, thank you for clearing things up for me.
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 6:44am
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Alright, I think I figured out what changing compliance will do, at least in theory. Somehow I can't post pictures any more. There is an equivalent schematic of a loudspeaker at Randy Bohannon's link. http://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms//C5612AQEiVLZ4UoytKA/article-inline_-shrink_1000_1488/0/1605531242042?e=1676505600&v=beta&t=pi-KdWJZKQXAHAdlfy1tlOs2lGv5t-Zunob-4DwRLgg - http://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C5612AQEiVLZ4UoytKA/article-inline_image-shrink_1000_1488/0/1605531242042?e=1676505600&v=beta&t=pi-KdWJZKQXAHAdlfy1tlOs2lGv5t-Zunob-4DwRLgg The inductor on the right is proportional to Cms. It shorts out the speaker at very low frequencies. A smaller inductance will shunt away more power. So a smaller compliance will protect the driver from too much excursion below cutoff. I hope that our high pass filter will protect us down there if voltage is limited. People seem to agree that hornresp models excursion fairly well. Increasing compliance will give slightly more output around 40 Hz. I found no influence on the loudspeaker's behaviour at higher frequencies. Thank you very much for the link. There are some very old posts about compliance from Rog Mogale and Levyte357 that I like but I never understood them. Let's see if I understand them better now. Next I will put chamber volume and horn throat into my Spice netlist. I don't expect my experiments with netlists to be accurate but I hope they will help me understand things better. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 9:25am
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if you are on about the discontinued fane 1000( look like a turbomax 1000 ) not the xb 800 or 1000 what ever they call it now, then if you are using super scoopers remove the dog leg from inside , I have had these drivers until very recently and with the dog leg in there are useless , without dogleg frequencies appear that were just not there with the leg it , they act become a real force !!!! with 1850 they play much nicer but you will loose spl and they will bottom out when pushed again have done this :) but sound way better than with dog leg in , ------------- TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 1:19pm
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Levyte, you critizise drivers with Bl less than 30. Is it because they need more power for being as loud as other drivers? We are running four 15 inch scoops at 200 - 250 W per speaker for small crowds. We can sense that our drivers are close to their limit. We hope we will play for 200-300 people outdoors some day. Do you say we need high efficiency drivers for being reasonably loud? I was told clipping protection on the Proline 3000 is not good. So we will need to stay away from maximum power. We could get another amplifier at some time in the future if that's necessary. Now we can just about afford four drivers and building material. Paulus, thank you very much for joining the conversation. This is excellent information. Yes, I mean the Fane 1000 that's discontinued. How did the Fane sound in the Superscooper without the dogleg? Was it boomy? How many of them did you use and at what power? Did you play outdoors? Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 1:36pm
Getting exceptional SPL and low end extension from Scoops can be quite easy, if the wrong compromises, are not made. From personal experience (of Testing and playing gigs), I "personally" don't rate any 15" Scoops. High BL Drivers are more optimal in the 40-50hz range in Scoops. Void V18-1000 in Superscooper, or V18-1000/PD1850 in Mykey Wattco design, driven by amps that can truly deliver 2kwpc @ 4 ohms, will give very good results. Better results can be obtained using more modern drivers, in more modern designs. Proline gives very good 4 ohm bridge, or 8 ohm stereo performance. CVR may outperform Crown Macrotech MA5000VZ downto 45hz HPF, I have not tested this.
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 12 December 2022 at 7:01pm
As with many of these things, the single numbers tell you only a small part of the picture. Bl, Kms and several other parameters are curves that vary with excursion and temperature. You were on the right path with looking at the Voice Coil magazine reviews, which publish some of the Klippel data which tells you way more than just the simple Thiele-Small parameters on a spec sheet. Look up Bennet Prescott from B&C's YouTube channel for several excellent videos which will tell you a lot more of the reality about choosing a suitable transducer for your cabinet. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 13 December 2022 at 6:48am
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Levyte, it's good to hear that high Bl drivers are good at 40 - 50 Hz. And thank you very much for the Void V18-1000 recommendation. Toastyghost, I will watch the videos you recommended. Thank you very much. Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 December 2022 at 10:02am
I Suggested the Mykey Wattco Scoop to you, as it will excel, with many more drivers than the Superscooper 18. Modern High BL drivers, with decent real 11mm+ Xmax, will be exceptional 38hz and above, if care is taken with sub boost, and using real strong sub amps. Most are not. This is from years of testing, similar Scoops, with many different drivers/amps. Sims with Hornresp will not tell you this, only trial and error testing with different drivers, cabs, amps, pre-amps. Like many others, I have owned 18NLW9601, PD1851, PD1852, V18-1000, PD1850, and many decent amplifiers, cabs, so talking from experience.
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 13 December 2022 at 10:23pm
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I would really like to try the Mykey Wattco scoop for our prototypes. It seems that Facebook took down Mykey's drawings from their website. KidCreole posted some dimensions of the Wattco scoop in his Hornresp model. I looked at the Scaled Fane Mykey posted with his baffle modification and at Staiper's MS-18 Mk2. It seems they have similar chamber and throat dimensions as the Wattco Scoop. Except for the MS-18 being a mini scoop. Would you say the V18-1000 will play deep and warm in these two cabs? Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 13 December 2022 at 10:34pm
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People wrote that the Fane 1000 played extremely deep and clean in a Rhino Mk2 that was modified by Levyte357. Would that be similar in a MS-18 Mk2? And they wrote that the Fane XB was a lot more musical than other drivers in Fane scoops. Is that still true after more than 10 years? Maybe my friends and me should get a V18-1000 and a driver that's similar to the Fanes and listen to both of them. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 13 December 2022 at 11:21pm
"Mykey Scaled up Fane Scoop" 
I am saving you years of trial and error, and unnecessary sims here... The V18-1000 will play well, and loud, in most Decent Scoop designs. The above "Mykey" Scaled up Fane design, is pretty much as good as it gets, for free 18" Designs. In this Design, V18-1000 will be the most sensitive, PD1850 will play warmer, deeper than V18-1000, PD1852 will play the lowest, take enough power, to outplay the above 2x. Forget all about the Fanes/RCFs, they will not come close, to the PD1852, in the above cab.
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 14 December 2022 at 10:03pm
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Hello Levyte, this is extremely helpful. Thanks a lot! I can't wait to try the PD1852 in Mykey's modified Fane scoops. I'm going to try to convince my friends. This is very exciting. We will soon build our first scoops. Wish us luck. Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 14 December 2022 at 10:12pm
| Just to note "kid kreole" and mykey are the same person. |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 15 December 2022 at 1:28pm
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I have to say with the current energy prices the title of this thread really did get my hopes up...... even simulating warmth would be awesome atm ok il get me coat ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 15 December 2022 at 2:12pm
Sorry mate, have'nt you heard !? "Warmth is distortion" ...  ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 15 December 2022 at 3:27pm
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------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 15 December 2022 at 7:36pm
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With the cold we are having I'm longing for some nice warm bass.
Ah, I wasn't sure about that. From what I read he does some amazing designs.
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 16 December 2022 at 11:46am
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Thank you very much to everybody who has contributed to this thread. You are extremely helpful people. We would like to build a prototype first and four speakers for playing outdoors afterwards. I guess one speaker will have a completely different frequency response than a stack of four. We are totally new to this. When we put one speaker into a corner - will it sound similar to four speakers out in the open? Best wishes Axel Germann |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 16 December 2022 at 2:01pm
Hi, Will sound nothing like 4x. Firstly, most important question, which amps and drivers are you going for !? ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Sinai Sound
Date Posted: 16 December 2022 at 3:44pm
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Personally, I've never liked a single scoop, even a pair isn't that great 3 is where they start to "come alive" IMHO of course....
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 16 December 2022 at 10:18pm
We will use our Proline 3000. I will meet my mates on Wednesday and propose the Scaled Fane design with the PD1852 to them. Thank you very much for your recommendation. I hope they will say yes.
So we can't guess how four speakers will sound like from the sound of a single prototype? Will we be able to estimate distortion or will that also depend on how many speakers are playing together? We'll use a high pass filter. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 16 December 2022 at 11:40pm
It's similar to Red Stripe - you can't drink one and estimate what effect 3 or 4 will have . ------------- I started out in this business with nothing. I still have most of it left. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 17 December 2022 at 4:28am
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Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 17 December 2022 at 9:12am
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If you are familiar with testing other scoops in singles and have played them in 4s you would have an idea. If not then you wont. Only 1 scoop i know of that tested in a decent size hall and filled the whole place with decent spl and frequency. Same occasion we had been listening to 2 different 4 scoop stacks n that venue. Remier league combos SB 50 loaded stack and marvin midis tmax 1500i loaded stack. But that box in question is the magic scoop no1 can discuss as it just causes arguements ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 17 December 2022 at 1:22pm
red stripe is like reflex boxes from personal experience there isnt that much difference between 1 and 4 boxes scoops on the other hand is like wray an nephew 1 scoop can be potent but 4 big difference ------------- feel the vibes !!! "Who Feels it Knows it" Strong like Lion |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 17 December 2022 at 4:21pm
Yes, to some extent you can. The issue is that many people stand their scoops upright, so placing one in a corner doesn’t recreate that arrangement from the mutual reflection sources when it comes to the aspect ratio of the horn mouth, and the distance between direct radiating elements. The best way to think about low-frequency boundary loading is that the walls are mirrors, *if* they’re sufficiently dense, solid and large in dimension. If you place one scoop standing upright directly in a corner, you have 3 reflections in play. One of them is the wall behind, so is like putting two scoops back-to-back. This is mirrored in the floor, as if there are scoops stood one on top of the other, with the “bottom” mirror image in the floor being upside-down. This is also reflected in the side wall. The distance between sources directly affects how they couple at various frequencies. Distance = time delay = phase rotation. Only sources that have complimentary phase slopes within 30 degrees of each other will sum coherently to give more output; so the reality is a complex mix of boosting and cancelling across the bass pass band - lots of response ripple, including reflections down the horn which affect the efficiency of the box. Psychoacoustically studies suggest that we apparently don't have much frequency resolution in our auditory senses down that low; it's closer to 1/3 octave smoothing or even 1/1 octave. However, other studies show that we are quite sensitive to time-smearing and that's what happens when you have multiple sources in play. This is all before you consider the impact of the room's modal response region, which extends up to >400Hz in smaller rooms where you're likely to bring a single sub... Sorry, but like many things in audio the true answer is "it depends"
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 18 December 2022 at 7:26pm
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So if we don't know what to listen for, building a prototype won't help us guess what four speakers will sound like. I'm going to recommend to my friends we skip the prototype and follow Levyte357's advice. The Scaled Fane design from Mykey and the PD1852. It's a bit of a pity. We were hoping to experiment with some slight changes (throat or chamber size) on our prototype to learn a bit about scoops. But I guess we will gain a lot of experience just building the speakers. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 18 December 2022 at 7:36pm
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I had 3-4x prototypes built, of various designs, before I settled on 2x designs I like. The Mykey scaled up Scoop, will work with old style drivers, like 1850/V18-1000, and many modern drivers. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 18 December 2022 at 7:40pm
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If you bridge Proline into 2x 8 ohm 1852s, will be ridiculous sub and apl,, but very heavy amp rack. Strongly suggest you do not try to use it 4 ohm stereo on 18" subs, you will blow amp and drivers, and amp may not be repairable. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 19 December 2022 at 6:51am
Thank you for pointing this out. So we will need a power amplifier. I'm thinking about either getting a single Crown MA5000VZ or a second Proline 3000. We can possibly get a MA5000VZ for a good price. Would a single MA5000VZ be loud enough for us? We are playing for less than 100 people at the moment and we want people to be happy without the need for hearing protection. Will it be loud enough for 300 people? Is there a large difference in bass response between a single MA5000VZ and two Prolines? Do two Proline 3000 in bridge mode have enough headroom to stay safely away from clipping? I've been warned that the clipping protection on the Proline is not reliable. Has anybody used a peak limiter in front of a Proline 3000? We have a dbx 1046. We haven't tried it out on a crowd yet. We don't feel very safe turning down the limiter's output level so we would use an attenuator between the dbx output and the Proline input. I would be grateful for recommendations. Best wishesAxel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 19 December 2022 at 12:01pm
This is a mistake, many make. Getting serious drivers, and not spending enough on amplifier decent enough to power them. The Crown MA5000VZ, excellent amp it was, can just about fully power, 2x PD1850 per channel. The PD1850 is actually only rated at 800W. What you need to be aware of, driver impedance is "nominal", it changes with frequency, also, impedance of a cab loaded with 8 ohm driver, will not necessarily be 8 ohms. Many Scoops, loaded with 8 ohm drivers, have been measured as 12 ohms, by Powersoft K20 onboard software. So 2x of those cabs per channel of an amp, are approx 6 ohms, not 4 ohms. Situation is worsened, by over long, thin speaker wire, and even worse if bass amp, cannot output rated power at 40hz, which is the case for a majority of amps. I have owned Proline 3000, and if operated intelligently, they can impress. However in 2022/2023, there are many alternatives, to Heavy Proline 2000/Crown MA5000VZ. If you are constrained by budget, maybe an idea to start off with V18-1000s/PD1850s. Then you will find it very easy to locate amplifier to power 4x of them. Would suggest you attempt to borrow Admark AD42, CVR D3302, and try before buying. If ytou have access to strong mains in venues, Crest CA18 will be cheap, and has proven record of warmth/quality sound, with these drivers.
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 19 December 2022 at 10:18pm
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One reason why I love Reggae is the deepness of the bass. In Reggae not much distracts from low bass. This separates Reggae from most other styles of music. That's why I wish to do this. For my friends and me, getting very high volume levels is less important than getting a lovely deep and round bass. We love being able to follow the melody that the bass is playing. We are wishing for musical-sounding loudspeakers with some beautiful lows and not much grunt. We play outdoors so we don't have room modes. Levyte, you explained to me that in available free designs a PD1852 will play as low as a scoop can play. I hope I didn't misunderstand you. So if this is what it takes to get the sound we are hoping for, we will need the right power amplifier. Thank you very much for explaining that the MA5000VZ and the PD1852 are not a good match. We are strapped for money, so heavy amplifiers will have to do. I care about getting the most beautiful sound with the limited amount of money we have. I'm not the strongest bloke around but I'm volunteering for carrying them (one by one). We are more concerned by the weight of the scoops. You wrote that operated intelligently, a pair of Prolines can impress. I don't know if we qualify for operating intelligently. We will put all our brains into gain-staging and setting up limiters. Please tell us if we are bound to damaging our speakers with two Proline 3000s running in bridge mode. Best wishes Axel P.S. Some Reggae bassists have a sound with some more mids in it. I would expect that loudspeakers with the character I described above will also make their songs shine.
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 3:26am
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Even though Proline is a great amp, suggest you look for pair of QSC 5050 to bridge instead. Superior build, plenty headroom, in bridge. Have personally bridged these across '51/'52. Did you look around for Admark/CVR ? ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 8:48am
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proline will burn your speakerrs maybe you should go for ev p3000 or crown vz or ca 18 with fane xb or pd 186 job done !
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Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 9:39am
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Just thought I should add I’ve used prolines on 18” bass drivers for 3 years and never popped a driver doing so. It’s really simple just don’t clip when I read through some posts on this forum they read like clip is not something people are in control of but you definitely can! 4ohm stereo with 2 18s a side on one and chances are your drivers will not be getting the power they fully need but bridging into 2 18s I cannot see them needing anymore than that! Reggae isn’t my scene (although would love to) but blasting equipment in dusty barns with bass heavy music is and I’ve never had one go down on me, lovely amps!
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Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 10:57am
Prolines are rubbish amps but might work if you are barn dancing to some fourm of hill billy music 
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 12:21pm
Problem with PD186 (MK1), and Fane 18XB, they have nice sound, but when you want to really turn up the niceness, they easily lose it and are dead !! EV P3000 gives nice warm sound, and very under rated, but will eventually cook itself to death. Crown MA5000VZ proven badman amp, but does not have the sound quality of Crest CA18, and maybe difficult finding well serviced unit, with aithentic expensive, Crown O/P devices. We all know How great Crest CA18 is on 4x PD1850 or V18-1000, but you need extremely decent mains, to extract full performance. Maybe Crest CA18 and PD1850s, would be great starting point for Twinkle, if he seeks very warm sub, on budget..
But everyday, I hear good things about the Admark, and that definitely could power 2x PD1852s per channel, ehn need arises. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 12:23pm
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Hi. First of all, if you want musical bass, and good reproduction of the bass instrument, you are focusing too much on small details and loosing the great picture. Before the type of amplifier and cone in the subwoofer, what's the rest of the system and are you aligning it? Just a small portion of the bass lives in the subs, it will play also through low mids and mids and up to the highs if it's a real instrument and not sinewaves. Try play a bass just through a sub and it will be dull and boring... Actually most bass amps have a rising response opposed to subs, and most of the bass you get is higher armonics, not the low fundamentals. Obviuosly cones and to a lesser extent amplifiers will have an impact, but small if you are not addressing more important issues. Beside that, scoops are a very old design, well understood and it can be simulated truthfully, if you know how to do it and take time to learn the tools of the trade. That's a fact. If someone prefers to go the old way or doesn't care to learn how to use modern software and still goes by trial and error it's their choice, nothing wrong or bad in it, but don't be fooled, there has been some progress in the last 70 years despite what someone here wants you to believe. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 12:32pm
Using HR, I've tried simming many Scoops, with many different drivers, and the only accurate, useful information I gained, from sims, was regarding diaphragm displacement, with regards to frequency and power. Many many times, HR sim predicted great response of certain driver, in certain types of cabs, and was completely inaccurate, and driver didn't work in cab at all. What I did learn from all of this, and years of trial and error testing, was matching Driver TS parms, to different Scoop types. I can look at 4-5x driver parms, and know with extremely high degree of confidence, based on past experience, if driver will be optimal in Scoop, and which type Scoop. Obviously this depends, on testing/trying many different drivers in many different types of Scoops, over years, which many don't do, but yet think they can still make certain statements in Scoop forum, with some false sense of superiority. Will not mention, how many times I have seen people rely more on sims, than actual realistic listening tests, with 4x stack of subs, bass heavy material and pre-amps, and is when they are actually playing in gig, they realise huge mistake they have made.
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 1:32pm
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At the moment my mates and me can just about afford the speakers if we are lucky. We will be paying for most of our project out of our own pockets. My friends worry about the cost of hardware for speaker construction (grilles, corners, T-nuts, handles, wheels). People told them you need 200 EUR for the hardware of each cabinet. Is that true? I've been dreaming for some time of using old Crest or QSC amplifiers for our subwoofers. I hope that in the near future we can buy a pair of amplifiers that are better than Prolines. Thank you very much for your list. Right now there are hardly any second-hand power amplifiers for sale. Maybe after Christmas there will be more offers. I will buy a power amplifier before our speakers are ready for use. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 1:59pm
He stated that brute force (spl) was not his objective ! I have 8 ev p3000 that i use for roots dances never had a problem ! All of the above are better than a proline c mark naphon and can be bought for around the same price
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 1:59pm
Where are you based? What is your budget for Sub amplifier? There are plenty of used PD1850 in UK, Think I know someone with Crest CA18 for sale, in UK. Very few amplifiers, will give you the warmth you are looking for, and the power to drive 2x PD1850s per channel properly. Do you already have Proline 3000s, or are buying new? ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 2:06pm
But you know as well as myself, it is inevitable, if he starts with 1850s now, later on, he will want 1852s, and will then have to buy sub amp "again".. Maybe he could start with 1850s now, and same SAE amp Paulus has, which he loves on 6x 1850s. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 2:15pm
you can definitely spend more than you expect on glue, screws, speakons etc. wheels are worth having for sure. handles also.. you can build them in (cutouts with back boxes) which is more work, or buy metal ones to bolt in (more tee nuts etc). grills are a bit of money.. the price of everything does seem to be on the rise. think ahead with each aspect of your build, try to get a ball park idea on how many screws you might need per box, how many tee nuts etc. buying things in bulk is often the best way. if you expect to build more speakers in future.. worth buying a good supply of tee nuts and bolts. and paint.. and consumables like sanding discs or belts, drill bits etc. |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 2:28pm
totally agree its a never ending journey but try telling the kids not to and they will just give you that look as if your old and stuck in your ways  i guess its like the parraflex guys telling us that scoops are no good and outdated its not like we can't afford them but we just won't hear  |
Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 4:50pm
Hqve you heard the admarks being able to give deep warm round sub? Cos thats what the o.p said hes after? ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 6:05pm
I've not personally heard them, just good reports, from people who know what they are talking about. I'm very close to buying AD42 myself, just for 4x drivers. That's why I suggested he should try borrowing one, for test, before buying. Was told big CVR sounds better than MA5000VZ !! ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 6:54pm
Sounds like chinese whispers££££
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 8:48pm
I'm happy that so many of you have answered my question. Thank you very much.
I live in Germany. I would love to live in a place where people sell PD1850s and CA18s. We have one Proline 3000 that we bought second-hand. I looked around for amplifiers on your list but I hardly find anything. I will meet my friends tomorrow and we will discuss if we can afford four PS1852s plus the building materials.
If my friends say yes and nothing better is available I could buy another second-hand Proline. That's about as much as I can muster now. Then get something better when we stop hurting from the expense or when a good occasion comes up. After some advice I received in this thread I'm getting second thoughts about the Proline. Are Prolines really that bad? Esc4pe and some other users here seem to like them. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 9:05pm
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Just get Behringer 1u compressor, and make sure Amplifiers NEVER get > 0db input signal. If You run 2x amps in bridge should have enough headroom.. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 9:44pm
Could you give us an advice from your experience, please: How much would you spend on hardware for a scoop if you were starting out and strapped for cash? Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 20 December 2022 at 11:23pm
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Hello! I would like to make sure I don't get this wrong:
I read "will play the lowest" and understood it will sound plenty deep and warm in the Mykey Scaled up Fane design. Is that what you meant? Does the PD1852 play musical? I hope I'm not confusing things. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 21 December 2022 at 2:25am
With right pre-amp, sub amp, yes 1852 in that design, will do all you need. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 21 December 2022 at 2:27am
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If you drive to UK, you can get all you need !!! Mate has 2x 1852s, and Charlie Bass pre-amp. Probably more 1852s around. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 21 December 2022 at 10:16am
Thats's great to hear. Thank you. You've been very supportive. In your experience - would a lot of EQ be needed for a musical sound with the PD1852 in a Scaled Fane or just some smaller corrections? (apart from using the preamp's EQ to make each tune sound sweet) Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 21 December 2022 at 12:22pm
Maybe I should really do that. I asked my wife if we go there. She's thinking about it. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 22 December 2022 at 9:03am
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My wife has agreed to travel to the UK with me to get the drivers. She is the greatest. I met with my friends yesterday. They say we do it. Now this is starting to move. Good. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 23 December 2022 at 10:43pm
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So we are going to the UK to buy power amplifiers and drivers. I'm really looking forward to doing this. Do you know anyone who wants to sell one or more Crest CA18 or PS1852? I'm new to this forum. If you find this is the wrong part of the forum to ask this, please tell me so. I wish you all a merry Christmas Axel |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 24 December 2022 at 3:04am
My mate has sold his 2x 1852s, and Pre amp. There is guy here called luton_soundman, who might have CA18. I have some freshly reconed 4 ohm 1852s, which would be good, 1x per Channel of Proline 3000. I have 4x of these. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 24 December 2022 at 3:17pm
Speak to Richard at Electrikal Soundsystem, they have lots of PD1852 in their system and may be willing to sell four of them. You can contact them via their page on Facebook, Instagram or the email address on their website https://electrikal.net/" rel="nofollow - https://electrikal.net/ They're based in both Edinburgh and Bristol. |
Posted By: richardwatts87
Date Posted: 24 December 2022 at 4:46pm
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Hi there, I have 4 brand new in box 8 ohm pd1852's I'd probably be up for selling if you're interested? I'm changing direction with what I have currently and would like to fund some more drivers. I'd probably want £300 a piece and I'm based in Leeds. Pm or drop me an email northleedscarpentry@gmail.com Cheers Richard
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Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 24 December 2022 at 4:49pm
Cheers Lev, unfortunatly i've sold all of my CA18s now. I do have x4 Turbomax 1200i 18" drivers i can let go for £750. ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 10:13am
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Thank you very much for your suggestions and for the offers some forum members sent me. I haven't found anybody who sells a Crest CA18 yet. I'll ask in the Wanted section of this forum but if any of you knows anything about who sells one or two I would be happy. I haven't found any places that sell SAE, Admark, or CVR amplifiers but after reading here how fine the CA18 sounds I guess the Crest will be good for the sound we're seeking. Did I understand that right - we need two CA18s to drive four PD1852? Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 11:18am
CA18 cannot fully drive 8 ohm PD1852s. Would be great driving 1x 4 ohm 1852 per channel. It is good for 8 ohm PD1850s/V18-1000. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 3:59pm
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A friend of mine uses 4r 51's on ca18s and its a dangerous combination!! (In a good way) ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 4:18pm
Hello Levyte, you have a personal message. I'm interested in your 4 Ohm drivers. Are there recone kits for 4 Ohm PD1852s? I looked everwhere but I didn't find any. Can a CA18 drive two 8 Ohm PD1852s in bridge mode? Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 26 December 2022 at 4:19pm
Thank you. Very nice.
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Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 27 December 2022 at 2:55pm
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I would like to ask you for advice. Before I buy the wrong speakers or amplifier I'm trying to find out if two CA18s can power four 8 Ohm PD1852s in bridge mode. I'm new to this. I checked for xmax with hornresp. The PD1852 is specified for xmax = 12 mm.  Four PD1852 in Scaled Fane cabs with Eg = 110 V Displacement is 12 mm at 110 V. The CA18 manual says maximum RMS output voltage is 99 V for each channel. I guess that's 198 V bridged. Does that mean the output voltage of the CA18 is enough for two 8 Ohm PD1852s in bridge mode? According to the manual the CA18 can deliver 4800 W into 4 Ohms bridged 20Hz - 20kHz at 0.1 % THD. I don't know if they were expecting Reggae sound systems when they wrote that. Will one CA18 be enough for running two PD1852s bridged? The places where we play have three phase 16 Amp mains. Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 27 December 2022 at 3:32pm
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CA18s can easily power x2 52s in bridge mode heard it plenty of times in the roots/dub circuit with very heavy bass material. ------------- Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment. |
Posted By: spongebob
Date Posted: 27 December 2022 at 3:33pm
| There will be more than ample power available to run into power compression issues long before headroom issues |
Posted By: hi grade
Date Posted: 28 December 2022 at 9:01am
| I think jon from rc1 on this forum might have some ca18 for sale if you send him a message |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 28 December 2022 at 10:24am
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Axel, you need to put things into perspective. There is no single best amplifier. On speakerplans there has been a constant 20 year banter going on about which amps are best for subs. Every commercially available amplifier has been tried and discussed. Cost, weight, reliability are the main factors in the discussion. Any of the suggested amps will do a decent job for you. You have to realize that the field being discussed here is the equivalent of formula1/drag racing. Past what most people would consider satisfying and strong sub and bass. Eye wobbling, dust stirring, concrete cracking at its worst/best. Wolf of blackwood sound for example has six 1852 loaded full scoops on a 20 sqm room, and spanks them all night long on a bunch of chevin amps, until the ceiling cracks or a driver dies. (Many of his patrons prefer to hang outside the venue because its too damn intense )It all gets a bit silly when you consider that people used to drive one or two double 18" reflex boxes per channel on a CA18 (dub bassline from 8×jbl double18s on 2x CA18 made me dance and skank for the first time, before that i was a headbanger ).Now people bridge the damn things to spank just two drivers  |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 28 December 2022 at 10:42am
 ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 28 December 2022 at 9:44pm
That's great news.
Thank you very much. I will ask him.
It's difficult to guess for me what will give us the most rounded and musical tone. My friends and me are not about extreme volume. We'll be happy if we find some sweet-sounding speakers and an amp that won't emphasize harshness that's in the music or in the speakers. When you slowly turn up the volume, there's a point when a scoop will change its tone. Not clipping but it sounds like somebody's humming along above the bass. Probably some kind of driver nonlinearity. Does this happen with the PD1852 in a medium chamber scoop before it reaches xmax? Can you run four PD1852s at a sensible volume before it happens? There are some words used on this forum I haven't understood yet. What do people mean with "grunt"? Could you describe it to me? I often hear scoops that sound like a revving engine is playing the bassline. Sometimes the effect is more intense, sometimes it's less. Is that what grunt means? Best wishes Axel |
Posted By: KidCreole
Date Posted: 29 December 2022 at 7:07pm
The flatter response (second graph) is the warmer sounding The first graph with the two ''DOGS EARS'' is your more aggressive driver, a driver to clash with that will sound less warm. ------------- Mykey Wattco |
Posted By: Twinkle
Date Posted: 30 December 2022 at 8:49pm
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Ah, thank you for your explanation. I'm trying to piece together the sounds I hear with what people describe and with anything I read. I'm trying to learn what Thiele/Small parameters do to frequency response now. I did some more reading on this forum. Is "grunt" a peak at low frequencies? Best wishes Axel
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 30 December 2022 at 10:20pm
Looking at the current offerings of PD Inoticed a new driver in their 18" rangePD.185C003 https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-185c003/" rel="nofollow - https://www.precision-devices.com/products/all-products/pd-185c003/ Am I missing something, or does it look better on paper than the 1852? 185c003 has Lower reso (33 vs 41,8) Lower qts (0,24 vs 0,33) Higher BL (31 vs 30) Higher ebp (144 vs 122) Both 5" VC Ferrite vs ceramic VAS is double that of the 1852 though...... Shouldnt this be better suited for horn loading? Its a few quid cheaper than the 1852 too...... .....and still, the big boy B&C drivers would probably outrun it, except price wise  |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 December 2022 at 11:15am
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PD.185C003, will need larger chamber to play warm. 1852 designed to play low and warm, in small chamber Scoops. PauliePaul was instrumental in design of the 1851/1852. EDIT:But as in all things, proof is in the pudding..
------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 17 January 2023 at 10:51am
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The only reason that hornresponse simulations do not seem to correlate with measurements is: People can´t do proper groundplane measurements. The hornresponse simulations are very accurate if you manage to get the dimensions and espansions in your final scoop. |
Posted By: S&P
Date Posted: 25 May 2023 at 9:46am
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It’s been a long time since I’ve posted on speakerplans. Saw this thread and subject title is interesting. Typical simulation tools that predict speaker response over a wide frequency range will not help with this. This is because warmness is nothing to do with SPL etc. It is to do with the introduction of harmonics, which these tools do not predict. You will need a simulation tool that enables you to predict the frequency response of a speaker with a single tone input signal. Ideally the simulation tool will enable at least 2D simulation, because the simplification that many tools assume of plane wave propagation (1D) does not capture the pressure wave interactions that introduce harmonics. Most of the simulation tools people are using were written years ago, based on acoustic theory. Necessary because of lack of computing power. You’re really looking at using CFD tools nowadays to predict what you want, and with the availability of open source codes, anyone with a decent level of engineering training should be able to get their heads round it. I used to do this stuff in Star-CD when I used to work for the man. Interesting topic though. Sounds & Pressure Audio http://www.spaudio.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.spaudio.co.uk ------------- Sounds and Pressure Lo Fi Sound - Ska, Rocksteady, Reggae http://www.facebook.com/events/412323448834558/432237103509859/?comment_id=432362186830684¬if_t=event_mall_reply#!/groups/75371249167/ |