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Horn Tweeter Box

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107746
Printed Date: 05 March 2024 at 2:57pm
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Topic: Horn Tweeter Box
Posted By: SnailSpace
Subject: Horn Tweeter Box
Date Posted: 04 March 2023 at 11:32pm

Yes I’m back with more daft questions…

 

Horn Tweeter Box - any do’s and dont’s?


Can you mix various 8ohm horns of similar Watt within same box on same wiring system or should I only connect pairs of same make & model internally to their own socket/out plate? I have seen Tweeter Boxes with multiple horns & piezos of various sizes so just wondered how it was achieved? Or if it’s a good idea!


If so how would I wire x4 internally so they go to one set of sockets?


Also some of the tweeters have small elements attached? Maybe small crossovers from being attached to Drivers or maybe they are Capacitors? Are they needed?




Replies:
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 12:06am
What tweeters and horns do you have again? Post some pics if you can.

Tweeter boxes became a thing back in the day because the drivers available weren't very powerful so large quanties had to be used and because DSP didn't exist to contour the response of larger CD's to achieve some sparkle. But none of that is a problem anymore so it really depends if you are just trying to use a bunch of stuff you have or want to achieve the look of a classic sound system stack. 
If building some ideally you want to use identical drivers in these boxes, if using two different types try to make them cover different ranges. Less powerful drivers probably won't pair well with more powerful versions... they will just get blown when you crank it up. There are ways to combine a bunch of different drivers so they won't blow up but many times less is more.. you get better sound keeping it simple.


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 8:01am
And for heavens sake, don't just bolt them all to one straight baffle all shooting forward. Get them splayed properly. Build a box with multiple angled baffles, ideally one small baffle for each driver. 


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 9:11am
Here is an example of some horn and tweeter boxes I recently made for a local sound system. 

Their previous cabs had all the tweeters facing the same way, as well as 2” compression drivers bolted onto 1.4” entry horns, so we replaced the horns with 2” flares too

With everything correctly arrayed the difference in sound quality and coverage is night and day.

In this instance, the sound uses powersoft X8’s to power everything ( inc the tweeters), so i wired the tweeter boxes in series, so 2 x 32ohm loads. With amplifiers with plenty of output voltage this gives a great match, however with smaller amplifiers you may struggle for gain, so series parallel may be more appropriate 

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https://ibb.co/Y3X8mqX" rel="nofollow">
https://ibb.co/5GgXgJH" rel="nofollow">




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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 10:38am
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Here is an example of some horn and tweeter boxes I recently made for a local sound system. 

Their previous cabs had all the tweeters facing the same way, as well as 2” compression drivers bolted onto 1.4” entry horns, so we replaced the horns with 2” flares too

With everything correctly arrayed the difference in sound quality and coverage is night and day.

In this instance, the sound uses powersoft X8’s to power everything ( inc the tweeters), so i wired the tweeter boxes in series, so 2 x 32ohm loads. With amplifiers with plenty of output voltage this gives a great match, however with smaller amplifiers you may struggle for gain, so series parallel may be more appropriate 

https://ibb.co/xDVhHqT" rel="nofollow">
https://ibb.co/Y3X8mqX" rel="nofollow">
https://ibb.co/5GgXgJH" rel="nofollow">




Great looking boxes Chris. Which horn flares are those?


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 10:45am
Ev hp940

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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: APC321
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 11:15am
I really like the way 2" horns are angled down in the box.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 12:26pm
Yes, many compound angles…but it does help keeping the energy off the ceiling 
The bullet boxes are fitted with screw adjustable feet, similar to what is often found on the base of small projectors, so that they can be angled down to suit. There is a goove over the top so that the ratchet strap stays put


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 12:52pm

Great looking Boxes and I did want to build my own but I’m pushed for time with having small kids so I’m repurposing some boxes that work size wise and adding a new front. As a few of you know from my previous post it’s my first time splitting off H/M/L so it’s more about using what I have, learning the basics and how use my DSP etc custom made boxers and driver upgrades come at a later date. I may splay them after the suggestion though.


Ok so the horns I have are:

x4 RX22 (Horn) 8ohm 

x2 Fane J.104 (Horn) 8ohm 100/125w above 5Khz

x2 Altai mht-392 (Horn) 8ohm 


I was thinking of having x2 RX22 per box but have contemplated adding in the Fane & Altai too


I do have x2 Arrow PCT 1000 (Piezo) 150w and x2 Motorola (piezo) but probably won’t use any piezos.


Specifications that I have:


RX™22 CT Driver

  • Throat Parameter: .960" / 24.38 mm
  • Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms
  • Minimum Impedance: 7.7 Ohms
  • DC Resistance: 7.0 Ohms
  • Power Capacity 1200 Hz to 20,000 Hz: 160 W peak, 80 W program, 40 W continuous using pink noise band limited from 1000 Hz to 20 kHz (AES 2-1984)
  • Sensitivity: 107 dB / 1W 1m On-axis on 90º H x 40º V horn
  • Nominal Efficiency: 30%
  • Frequency Response: 650 Hz to 20,000 Hz
  • Recommended Crossover: 1200 Hz at 12 dB / Octave
  • Lowest Recommended Crossover: 1000 Hz at 12 dB / Octave
  • Diaphragm: Commercially pure titanium
  • Voice Coil Diameter: 2.0" / 50.8 mm
  • Voice Coil Material: Copper Clad Aluminum Wire with a High temp Kapton bobbin
  • Voice Coil Cooling: Ferrofluid
  • Flux Density: 18,000 gauss (1.8T)
  • Dimensions: 5.02" (128 mm) diameter x 3.13" (80 mm) depth
  • Horn Coupling Diameter: .960 (24.4 mm)
  • Horn Coupling Threads: Standard 1 3/8" - 18"
  • Weight Unpacked: 6.13 lb(2.78 kg)
  • Weight Packed: 6.39 lb(2.9 kg)
  • Width Packed: 5.75"(14.605 cm)
  • Height Packed: 6.125"(15.5575 cm)
  • Depth Packed: 3.625"(9.2075 cm)


Fane J-105 horn tweeter


8 ohms

Pavillon material : acier

screw number magnet/horns : 4

resonance frequency ( fs): 1500 Hz

Max. frequency : fx-18kHz

Rec. crossov. Fréq. (Fmax.) (12dB/oct.): 3000 Hz

Max Recommanded Amplifier : 100W/8ohms

Nominal Power : 50WAES

SPL (1W/1m): 105dB

spatial coverage (vertical/horizontal):45°/90°

voice coil diameter : 24,5 mm

magnet diameter : 80mm

mounting hole shape : 240x80mm

mounting depth : 193mm

size dimensions : 268x107mm

weight : 1,4 kg

diaphragm model : Monacor MHD-1255/VC


(J-105 can support 125W above 5Khz

In a full range system, with 95db/W/m woofer*, this compression driver can follow the woofer with 250W of power, about 117db/118db).



Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 1:06pm
What does the rest of your system comprise off? Its useful to know what you are balancing against.




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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: luton_soundman
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Here is an example of some horn and tweeter boxes I recently made for a local sound system. 

Their previous cabs had all the tweeters facing the same way, as well as 2” compression drivers bolted onto 1.4” entry horns, so we replaced the horns with 2” flares too

With everything correctly arrayed the difference in sound quality and coverage is night and day.

In this instance, the sound uses powersoft X8’s to power everything ( inc the tweeters), so i wired the tweeter boxes in series, so 2 x 32ohm loads. With amplifiers with plenty of output voltage this gives a great match, however with smaller amplifiers you may struggle for gain, so series parallel may be more appropriate 

https://ibb.co/xDVhHqT" rel="nofollow">
https://ibb.co/Y3X8mqX" rel="nofollow">
https://ibb.co/5GgXgJH" rel="nofollow">



Great work, didnt realise you built boxes for others...interesting  Smile


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Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 2:16pm
When time allows…

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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 05 March 2023 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

Ok so the horns I have are:

x4 RX22 (Horn) 8ohm 

x2 Fane J.104 (Horn) 8ohm 100/125w above 5Khz

x2 Altai mht-392 (Horn) 8ohm 


I was thinking of having x2 RX22 per box but have contemplated adding in the Fane & Altai too 


You don't need two of the PV drivers or any of the others really as it will go to 20khz, if you must put a Fane on top of it and cross it passively at 8-10khz so another amp channel isn't needed. One RX22 will outrun(get louder than) your "mids" box by quite a bit so you will need to turn it down to produce balanced sound. 



Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 2:02pm
Thanks!

I’ve only recently got my DSP sorted (I had to buy an old laptop to use the software) so still not got my head around it really and currently watching videos about crossover settings.

Apologies Conanski but here comes some daft questions:

1. Why do I not want it to go over 20kHz? Is that because combining the horns would take it above them
above the horns max frequency capabilities of 20kHz?

2. When you say cross it passively do you mean on the DSP?

3. This takes me on to another question related to this - I take it is important to know all your drivers specs/handling when setting up your DSP channels crossover so you get the sound balanced and don’t blow drivers/horns?

I was thinking of mounting the horns but as you say only wiring/using the RX22 for now then I can connect the others as I expand my sound? But as you say I don’t want to just use them for the sake of it if it creates unbalanced sound!

Also as in image posted here why do some sounds favour adding x8 Piezos as well as horns?


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 2:20pm
As regards the pictures i posted, please be aware that the horns are driven by specialist high mid compression drivers (2”) that have a working range of 600-8000Hz or so. The tweeters are moving coil tweeters, not piezos.

With 1” drivers you will have extension to 16KHz at least so tweeters above are redundant and likely to cause more problems than they solve.

Very few people over the age of 30 can hear past 16KHz, I suspect most people in the sound system or PA game have much above 14KHz unless they are children!…


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

1. Why do I not want it to go over 20kHz? Is that because combining the horns would take it above them
above the horns max frequency capabilities of 20kHz?
No it's not that at all. 20khz is the limit if human hearing, in fact most people can't even hear past 16khz some even less. The PV tweeters can go to 20khz by themselves so there really is no need for supertweeters... which are generally only used when a conventional tweeter doesn't go that high.

Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

2. When you say cross it passively do you mean on the DSP?
No with a passive crossover inside the speaker cabinet.

Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

3. This takes me on to another question related to this - I take it is important to know all your drivers specs/handling when setting up your DSP channels crossover so you get the sound balanced and don’t blow drivers/horns?
Yes.


Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

Also as in image posted here why do some sounds favour adding x8 Piezos as well as horns?
They may be recreating the look of a classic sound system, or they have tweeters that don't go very high, or they don't know how to or don't have the equipment to apply corrective EQ. It could be that they just like the sound of piezos(can't imagine why.. they don't sound very good) or that the music culture has a fettish for excessive high frequency content. 


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 3:20pm
If I don’t add the fanes and have x2 PX22’s 0
Per box would I still need a passive crossover? If so could I use the crossover that was in the peaveys or is that not suitable as it’s a crossover for High to Mid?


Posted By: Esc4pe
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

or that the music culture has a fettish for excessive high frequency content. 

Reminded me of taking a stroll through Notting hill carnival this bit LOL


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 06 March 2023 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

If I don’t add the fanes and have x2 PX22’s 0
Per box would I still need a passive crossover?
No but if you do that build the box with one horn pointed to the left and the other to the right. What horns do you have for these anyway?


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 07 March 2023 at 7:43am
Just the horns that came with the px22s. The actual horn is plastic. That’s why I wanted to incorporate the Fane or Altai as they have metal horns which is meant to be a better material
Isn’t it?

I have x2 boxes so will mount x2 in each box at an angle for if I split my stack as it’s a x4 L x4 M stack.

How would I connect internally to sockets so I have only x1 L & R per box? Series or parallel?


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 07 March 2023 at 7:51am
Generally well damped plastic is preferable as it does not ring and add harmonics like metal horns can
If they are the original peavey horns then many are made from glass loaded plastic which is a very good sounding material. Keep them and don’t just add other random drivers 

It is easy to presume that adding a horn will give you more treble, but this is, or can be, far from the case.

Without careful calculations to avoid destructive interference between horns, adding an extra horn usually results in uneven coverage, lots of hotspots and cancellations, and quite often LESS output than using one horn alone!


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 07 March 2023 at 1:31pm
Thanks, less is more in this case!

“The tweeters are moving coil tweeters” what do these smaller moving coil tweeters add as I’ve seen some systems with and some without?



Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 07 March 2023 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

“The tweeters are moving coil tweeters” what do these smaller moving coil tweeters add as I’ve seen some systems with and some without? 

They are another type of supertweeter, they do a better job than piezos but again generally aren't needed in all cases.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 08 March 2023 at 9:58pm
Indeed, in the specific case of this particular sound system they run 5 way

Subs 35 to 80Hz
Bass 80 to 250Hz
Low mid 250 to 700Hz
Upper mid 700Hz to 7KHz - the horns in the picture 
Tweeters 7KHz to 20KHz - the tweeters

As i said previously these particular horn drivers are dedicated upper mid units and really need the tweeters. They are time and phase aligned so they both work in unison.

Your 1” drivers are very different and are able to play up to the same frequencies as the tweeters in this system. They wont however give you the same output at the bottom of their range (1200Hz ish) but providing your mid range section is man enough you will be fine


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 8:38am
Well there is space I. The box if I did change my Mid/Low to add tweeters.

If I put x2 of the PX22’s in one box should I link them internally in Series or Parrallel, or should I link them externally as I will be linking my speakers as I found out in a previous post “You need to connect:--  amp +ve  -> speaker +ve. Then speaker -ve to next speaker +ve and finally speaker -ve back to amp -ve”.

Also do you dampen high boxes with any material?


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 10:25am
I'm still ot sure why you want 2x RX22 in a single cabinet. It will take quite a lot of midrange SPL for a single one to run out of steam matching it, assuming you don't clip the amp that's driving it...
  As CSG says, if the horn dispersion overlaps then you may get a less coherent sound with 2 than with just one horn. If you really want 2 in a cab then maybe try them oriented horizontally side by side on a splayed baffle...Confused


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 10:42am
My plan was to have them horizontal and splayed. I will probably still do x2 (x4) to a box but only connect x2 to system (as per advice)

The reason I want x2 in each cabinet is a long story (see other posts) but short story my Mids aren’t really Mids so I plan to move what I’m using as my Low (which is really a mid/low 15”) to Mids. I will get proper dedicated Lows and because I have x4 outs I will probably add a set of mids 12”. I am learning at this stage and why it’s unconventional it is actually helping me learn more as it’s forcing answers and making me understand more if that makes sense. It’s a mongrel of a sound system and a learning curve on a budget!

So do Horn boxes need lining with material or not?


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 10:48am
No, but imo metal horn flares should be damped on the inside to reduce ringing. Plastic/glass fibre ones don't need it.


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 10:48am
And I meant to say vertically on the flare, not horizontal!!


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 10:57am
Why do you reccomend Vertical as they are horizontal profile horns (rectangular)?


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 11:14am
I think the dispersion pattern of those horns is 90x40, so if you splay a pair vertically at the correct angle the pattern should be around 80x 90. This would mean that the cabinet would remain slim, and it should maintain reasonable stereo imaging with a pair of cabinets. It's not something I've tried before, and it's only worth you trying if you intend to use a stereo pair.


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 11:31am
I don’t know what dispersion pattern & 90x40& stereo imaging mean/relate to? You have to treat me like I’ve just hatched out of an egg, thanks!


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 11:48am
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

Ev hp940


I have a few of these for sale..

Probably some of the best 2" Horns ever made, very few in UK, EV Spec states response up to approx 20khz, with right driver.

So Won't be cheap..





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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:


With 1” drivers you will have extension to 16KHz at least so tweeters above are redundant and likely to cause more problems than they solve.

Very few people over the age of 30 can hear past 16KHz, I suspect most people in the sound system or PA game have much above 14KHz unless they are children!…


With right 2" compression driver, on EV HP940, you can effortlessly hit 16-18khz.

Heard it myself, that's why I have approx 8x-10x, of those units.

Obviously don't expect that extension, with Fane, Eminence or Paudio Comps.

You are talking JBL, Faital Pro, BMS.


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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 12:04pm
How much heavy metal do you want for a pair, Mr Goldfinger?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Lucasdude Lucasdude wrote:

How much heavy metal do you want for a pair, Mr Goldfinger?


PM Sent..


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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: Lucasdude
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

I don’t know what dispersion pattern & 90x40& stereo imaging mean/relate to? You have to treat me like I’ve just hatched out of an egg, thanks!

The dispersion pattern of HF horns is the horizontal and vertical coverage in degrees. Stereo imaging is how accurately a stereo signal is reproduced by a pair of speakers. If you intend just to plonk a load of boxes in one spot, then you don't need to worry about stereo. A single stack will be in mono, so the HF and MF sections can be driven by just a single amp channel each. So the minimum number of amp channels required for an active 3 way mono system is 3, for an active 3 way stereo system is 5 ( bass frequencies are omnidirectional, so they don't need to be run in stereo).


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 1:16pm
I will be using as both 2 stacks and 1 stack.

What would happen if I had x2 horizontal 1 above the other? (I’m not questioning you just if I know why you don’t do something it makes more sense!)

I have seen when I look at other Sound systems rows of horizontal horns I presume this is because they have more output below to balance? Or that they like more high? 


Posted By: KDW32
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 3:34pm
Snaispace get a copy of the old Yamaha sound  reinforcement book.. 


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 5:27pm
I’ll take a look Thanks


Posted By: KDW32
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

I’ll take a look Thanks

You'll will learn a lot from from it especially coverage and dispersion etc. It's a  handy little 'bible' I think I got it it 25 years ago I'm sure they update it a bit but a lot of useful information. Second hand hand on eBay won't cost many pence. 


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 8:38pm
Still quite expensive on eBay in uk as only copies are in US. It’s nice to have a hard copy as it’s easy but I’ve searched and found it on GoogleDrive as a PDF  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Ka-yX8YG6KVEJVNjVpNFVOY0k/view?resourcekey=0-ZVVgTWKylltbOwRVrbU_NA" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Ka-yX8YG6KVEJVNjVpNFVOY0k/view?resourcekey=0-ZVVgTWKylltbOwRVrbU_NA


Posted By: KDW32
Date Posted: 09 March 2023 at 9:31pm
Nice, some of the questions you been asking are well explained in it. It will give you a good grounding. 

Amazon UK have it for £16


Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 10 March 2023 at 11:16pm



Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 18 March 2023 at 12:59pm



Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 22 June 2023 at 11:08am
Does the size of a Horn box interior change the sound of the Horn or is the actual Horn attached to the Driver that is doing all the work by projecting the sound?


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 22 June 2023 at 12:42pm
The horn & driver are doing all the work of determining the sound/frequency response, the box should have no real impact on it in most cases.


Posted By: Bams
Date Posted: 22 June 2023 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by SnailSpace SnailSpace wrote:

Does the size of a Horn box interior change the sound of the Horn or is the actual Horn attached to the Driver that is doing all the work by projecting the sound?

Have you actually read the yamaha book? There is a complete chapter on horns..


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 22 June 2023 at 3:26pm
Large compression horns don't need to be boxed.. you could just mount them on a L bracket for example, a box just makes them easier to stack on top of other boxes and protects the driver during transport. 



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