Sockets/Plugs & Wiring Configurations
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Category: General
Forum Name: Newbie Discussion
Forum Description: Newbie Discussion/Questions. Look less stupid here...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=107892
Printed Date: 19 April 2024 at 6:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sockets/Plugs & Wiring Configurations
Posted By: SnailSpace
Subject: Sockets/Plugs & Wiring Configurations
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 11:09am
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I have a few questions so will put them all under one topic and ask one at a time! Thanks I have x2 GAE 215L Dual 15” reflex cabs. I will load with PV BW: https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140 They currently have a x4 pole metal screw fitting (Cannon-G 18-10 I can’t find any info or connectors and I’m planning on changing it to Speakon anyway) LEFT cab has x1 INPUT and RIGHT has an INPUT & OUTPUT all 4 pole with each speaker driver having a Red & Black Wire back to Socket. I presume this is the best way to wire and means 4 pole speakon sockets & connectors? My question is if I use the same wiring & 4 pole sockets & connectors does this mean I need x4 wires (4 core) running back? 2 to L and 2 to R? Also how do I link to each other/Amp - is it (Left) INPUT to (Right) INPUT then OUTPUT to AMP. |
Replies:
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 2:45pm
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How do you plan to use these? They won't take much power as subs but if it's as kicks they will be OK. But even then 500w/dr is probably the limit so my suggestion is to series wire the driver pair back to the speakon connector for an 8ohm load per box, and that means you could power all 4 boxes from a single amp. If you do wire each driver individually to the speakon that would require 4 core speaker wire and you will also need a patch panel or a combiner box to connect all drivers to the amplifier... or more amplifiers.
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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 2:47pm
| Double post |
Posted By: Xoc1
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 9:10pm
I see you have specified the Black Widow® 1508-4 SPS 4 ohm so putting 2 in cabinet results in either a 2 ohm or 8 ohm load if wired together. I'm not sure if that is optimal? Most amplifiers are happy at a 4 ohm load per channel so 2 X 8 ohm drivers per cab could be wired as a 4 ohm load - connected back to the amplifier with a 2 core cable, 1 cab per channel. More concerning was that the Black Widow® 1508-4 SPS has an low xmax of 2.4mm While the Black Widow® 1508-8 SPS has an xmax of 4.7mmI did not find any info on the GAE 215L Dual 15 but Have you run any simulations to find out if if this combination of box & driver is anywhere near optimal for your needs? |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 10:21pm
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Conanski: I intend to use them as lower Mids above the x4 EV Subs. I only have x2 215L boxes (I presume you meant x4 drivers) x2 BW in each cab and will be using the Crown XLi3500 https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500" rel="nofollow - https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500 I had a feeling with what I have the best option would be to series wire using 2 Pole. Xoc1: No I haven’t run any simulations. To be honest I also know little about simulations and I’m new to separating my frequencies and the system is cobbled together of what I could get on the cheap to learn on. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 11:20pm
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This leads me to my next question: BASS: I have x4 Cubo Subs. Loaded with x4 Eminence Kappa Pro 15LF https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2 The Amp I will be using is: iNuke6000 https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q x2 Cubo have IN & OUT Speakon Sockets (2 Pole) x2 Cubo have IN Speakon Sockets (2 Pole) The seller says he linked the IN to IN (2 Pole) and then the OUT back to AMP (2 Pole). On a previous post I seem to remember someone saying that I should ‘sum my LF to mono’. When you ‘sum’ LF and turn on Mono do you still use both INPUT Channels or just CHB? Looking at the back of iNuke Amp when it is in Mono do you only use CHB OUTPUT? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 12:15am
You are confusing two different things here... a summed mono signal and a bridged mono amplifier. Summing the signal to mono should be done in the DSP but you should not bridge the amp to mono, just set it up for dual mono if possible or stereo... which ends up being the same as dual mono with a summed signal. Typically if the amp has a dual mono mode then a single input signal on ChA drives both output channels, if it doesn't have that option then you need to put the same summed signal on 2 DSP outputs to drive both amp channels or use a Y cable. |
SnailSpace wrote:Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 10:36am
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Ok thanks I only downloaded the manual for the iNuke last night so will take a look and do some more research and watch some more YouTube videos and come back to subject of LF/Bass. So with the 2x2 15” Dual Cabs using 2 Pole Speakon Sockets how do I wire internally? Series? Do I keep socket configuration of L with x1 IN and R with IN & OUT or do I add an OUT socket to L? (Or would that only be for if I intended on having L & R stacks in different part of a room!) For a single stack would it be a short run from IN to IN? Then x1 Plug in OUT with x2 Plugs on other end of wire into AMP? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 3:14pm
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With only 2 boxes you non't need to link them together just connect one to each channel of the amp. Inside the boxes the drivers are wired as below to pins 1+/- of a speakon  |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 5:05pm
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So does this mean on the Box which currently has 2 Sockets (IN&OUT) I just fit x1 2 Pole Speakon Socket and wire drivers to that leaving old fitting in place? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 12:39am
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Yeah you could do that, but remove all the wires from those unused connectors. You might consider using NL4 speakon jacks anyway though... for future considerations.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 7:22am
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I’ve found a guide to calculate what size speaker wire https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/" rel="nofollow - https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/" rel="nofollow - https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/ Cable Length / Amplifier RMS / Speaker Impedence Are my calculations correct below or will the Speaker Driver Impedence change on the dual boxes when wired as you say? LOWER MID - Crown XLI 3500/PV BW: 5-10m/1350w/4ohm = 12awg |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 9:22am
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Fit all cabinets with NL4 chassis mount sockets link pins internally between sockets. Wire sub drivers to 1+1- Wire Tops to 2+2- Use 4 x 4mm speaker cable fitted with NL4fx from amps to cabinets 2 x long leads 4 x short link leads At the rack a patch panel with 1x nl4 sockets & 2x nl4fx tails per side Wired 1+1- to the sub amp 2+2- to the tops. Use long cable from rack to any cabinet and short links between cabinets ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 12:02pm
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4D HIGH x2 Horns Horn: https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190 Amp: https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf UPPER MID x2 12” Dual Cabs x4 Jamo: https://hifi-wiki.com/index.php/Jamo_D_265" rel="nofollow - https://hifi-wiki.com/index.php/Jamo_D_265 Amp: https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/ LOWER MID x2 15” Dual Cabs x4 PV BW: https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140 Amp: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500" rel="nofollow - https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500 BASS x2 W Bins: x2 Omega https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a BASS x4 EV Cubo: x4 Kappa https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2 Amp: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q DSP: dB-XCA 28 - 8 out 2 in https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX" rel="nofollow - https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX A. Fit all cabinets with NL4 chassis mount sockets link pins internally between sockets. Q. So in the case of the dual driver cabs are they still wired internally in series? (Am I adding an IN & OUT Socket on each cab so I can link with short runs, use as one stack or as 2 stacks. More options basically.) But if they are wired in series internally with socket links and then I link the other cab via a short external link does this not change the impedence or is it ok! —- A. Wire sub drivers to 1+1- A. Wire Tops to 2+2- Q. When you say ‘Tops’ I presume you mean anything that isn’t Bass ie Lower Mid/Upper Mid/Horns? On the back of the Behringer in the INPUT section it has a STEREO/MONO switch and CROSSOVER switch that says HF as CH-A & LF as CH-B, on the OUT side it has a diagram saying CH-A as 1+1- and CH-B as 2+2- I presume this is stereo? Then a diagram saying CH-B as 1+1-, I presume this is MONO. The person I bought the EV Cubos off ran them as his bass with x2 Omega & x2 Kappa no problems. I bought x2 Kappa so the EV Cubos now have x4 Kappa. I will load the x2 Omega into the W Bins. So how do I run all x6 combined as my Bass section through the iNuke & 8 Out DSP I have? —- A. Use 4 x 4mm speaker cable fitted with NL4fx from amps to cabinets A. 2 x long leads/4 x short link leads Q. Why only x2 long leads? Wouldn’t it be x1 long run from Horns, x1 long run Upper Mid, x1 long run Lower Mid & x1 long run Bass? Short link leads - x1 Horns, x1 Upper Mids, x1 Lower Mids & x1 Bass? —- A. At the rack a patch panel with 1x nl4 sockets & 2x nl4fx tails per side wired 1+1- to the sub amp 2+2- to the tops. Q. Bit confused by this? A 18” mounted patch panel? Why not just go direct to Amp? What’s a tail? (Apologies for the amount of follow up questions & thanks for info) |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 3:07pm
The two drivers in series inside the cab will have a nominal impedance of 8ohms, and if you do the calculation for just the wire lenth inside the cab which is only about 3ft... it will say 14ga is sufficient and that is good because it makes attaching the wire to the speakons and speaker terminals easier and puts less stress on those connections. The length outside the cab between the boxes and amplifier can be 12ga, you could get away with 14ga here too given the relatively low power levels involved but to future proof the system get 12ga wire. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 20 May 2023 at 11:46pm
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Makes sense to future proof it better to be safe than sorry as I think my long runs are 16awg. I have a bag of shorter runs maybe in 12awg but I really need a AWG metal tool to be sure. From my calculations I had 16awg down as being ok across 5-10m On tops but 12a for bass / so may as well do it all in 12awg to be sure.
https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/" rel="nofollow - https://soundcertified.com/what-size-speaker-wire-guide/ Cable Length / Amplifier RMS / Speaker Impedence HIGH - QSC USA 850/900 - 10m/270/8ohm = 16awg UPPER MID - QSC GX3 - 5-10m/300w per channel/8ohm = 16awg LOWER MID - Crown XLI 3500 - 5-10m/1350w/4ohm = 12awg BASS - |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 21 May 2023 at 12:02pm
The power level has basically nothing to do with cable gauge for “low impedance speaker” audio. The most important consideration when specifying cable gauge is the ratio between the impedance of the cable and the impedance of the load. A good rule of thumb for this at lengths up to 20m is that you should have 2mm^2 for every 8 Ohm of load. This means that for 4 Ohms of total load you would need 4mm^2 of total CSA. Since it’s easy to get to a requirement for 16mm^2 of cable like that and the impracticality of fitting that to a speakon, you see professional systems end up with Socapex and squids  ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 1:01am
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 1:59am
Well yes... the CSA of the copper will define it's impedance for a given distance. I never said to ignore the gauge however, I said that the impedance of the cable in relation to the driver is the main concern, not the power being output by the amplifier.
the primary cause of loss for low impedance speaker systems is the potential divider formed by Zcable:Zdriver. If you have 5% loss in your cable due to the impedance ratio it doesn't matter if you're delivering 50W or 5,000W, you're going to lose 5%. It's also not really the primary goal once you look at how loudspeakers work. Dealing with speakers that are only 1-2% efficient the difference in a couple of percent cable loss is pretty insignificant. Power is cheap and readily available. The primary benefit of a good cable:driver impedance ratio is that you minimise the short circuit impedance presented to the driver when it is being arrested by it's own back-EMF, the benefits of which are easy to demonstrate with a simple A/B test just by swapping a speaker lead.
In doing that you reach near enough to the correct answer even if the reasoning and intent behind it was incorrect. ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 8:34am
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CONANSKI & 4D: given 4D’s suggestion I have a few questions below, I’ve listed what I will be using in System. HIGH x2 Horns Horn: https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190 Amp: https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf UPPER MID x2 12” Dual Cabs x4 Jamo: https://hifi-wiki.com/index.php/Jamo_D_265" rel="nofollow - https://hifi-wiki.com/index.php/Jamo_D_265 Amp: https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/ LOWER MID x2 15” Dual Cabs x4 PV BW: https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140 Amp: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500" rel="nofollow - https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500 BASS x2 W Bins: x2 Omega https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a BASS x4 EV Cubo: x4 Kappa https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2 Amp: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q DSP: dB-XCA 28 - 8 out 2 in https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX" rel="nofollow - https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX A. Fit all cabinets with NL4 chassis mount sockets link pins internally between sockets. Q. So in the case of the dual driver cabs are they still wired internally in series? (Am I adding an IN & OUT Socket on each cab so I can link with short runs, use as one stack or as 2 stacks. More options basically.) But if they are wired in series internally with socket links and then I link the other cab via a short external link does this not change the impedence or is it ok! —- A. Wire sub drivers to 1+1- A. Wire Tops to 2+2- Q. When you say ‘Tops’ I presume you mean anything that isn’t Bass ie Lower Mid/Upper Mid/Horns? On the back of the Behringer in the INPUT section it has a STEREO/MONO switch and CROSSOVER switch that says HF as CH-A & LF as CH-B, on the OUT side it has a diagram saying CH-A as 1+1- and CH-B as 2+2- I presume this is stereo? Then a diagram saying CH-B as 1+1-, I presume this is MONO. The person I bought the EV Cubos off ran them as his bass with x2 Omega & x2 Kappa no problems. I bought x2 Kappa so the EV Cubos now have x4 Kappa. I will load the x2 Omega into the W Bins. So how do I run all x6 combined as my Bass section through the iNuke & 8 Out DSP I have? —- A. Use 4 x 4mm speaker cable fitted with NL4fx from amps to cabinets A. 2 x long leads/4 x short link leads Q. Why only x2 long leads? Wouldn’t it be x1 long run from Horns, x1 long run Upper Mid, x1 long run Lower Mid & x1 long run Bass? Short link leads - x1 Horns, x1 Upper Mids, x1 Lower Mids & x1 Bass? —- A. At the rack a patch panel with 1x nl4 sockets & 2x nl4fx tails per side wired 1+1- to the sub amp 2+2- to the tops. Q. Bit confused by this? A 18” mounted patch panel? Why not just go direct to Amp? What’s a tail? (Apologies for |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 9:57am
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Hi I will reply. When I get to a desktop and can spend the time to unravel your post../tx ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 11:22am
These are very low power, old, cheap HiFi drivers. Have you actually been using the system with them? If so, I'm amazed you haven't blown them up yet! These should be wired in series inside the cabinets and connected to 1+/- on the NL4MPs.
These should be wired in series inside the cabinet and connected to 1+/- on the NL4MPs
Mixing two different types of bass bin and two different types of drivers will make this *much* harder for you. It is generally inadvisable as the interaction between the two different speakers invariably causes more issues than you gain by having more speakers. Regardless, these should also be wired with the drivers to 1+/- of the NL4MPs A. Fit all cabinets with NL4 chassis mount sockets link pins internally between sockets. Q. So in the case of the dual driver cabs are they still wired internally in series? (Am I adding an IN & OUT Socket on each cab so I can link with short runs, use as one stack or as 2 stacks. More options basically.) But if they are wired in series internally with socket links and then I link the other cab via a short external link does this not change the impedence or is it ok! A. Wire sub drivers to 1+1- A. Wire Tops to 2+2-
Q. When you say ‘Tops’ I presume you mean anything that isn’t Bass ie Lower Mid/Upper Mid/Horns? On the back of the Behringer in the INPUT section it has a STEREO/MONO switch Then a diagram saying CH-B as 1+1-, I presume this is MONO. A. Use 4 x 4mm speaker cable fitted with NL4fx from amps to cabinets A. 2 x long leads/4 x short link leads Q. Why only x2 long leads? Short link leads - x1 Horns, x1 Upper Mids, x1 Lower Mids & x1 Bass? A. At the rack a patch panel with 1x nl4 sockets & 2x nl4fx tails per side wired 1+1- to the sub amp 2+2- to the tops. Q. Bit confused by this? A 18” mounted patch panel? Why not just go direct to Amp? What’s a tail? |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 12:09pm
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Thanks RoadRunnersDust! Yeah I think my Jamos are the talk of this forum anyway I’ll just be using the 12” driver to see how they sound as Upper Mid but when I look at replacements I’m getting similar specs. If I sold them I’d probably get £200 and could add some more £ but right now money is needed for other things. Whilst I’m testing the system settings in early days I’ll be very cautious and won’t be pushing it too much! But recommendations of suitable drivers at around the £60-80 price mark on BlueAran are welcome!Back to the MONO question, when I switch this to MONO is this BRIDGED MONO MODE on the Behringer? Do I use CHA & CHB in Bridged MONO Mode? & do I put the XOVER Switch to LF?
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 12:14pm
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I don’t think that iNuke supports bridge mode at all ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 3:10pm
| Yeah just looked your right but I think (2 x 3,100 Watts @ 4 Ohms; 2 x 1,600 Watts @ 8 Ohms) should be enough for what I have. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 25 May 2023 at 1:35pm
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Conanski: You said 14awg for inside of Dual 215 cabs. 12awg for outside. I will be investing in 12awg which is in a single wire as it makes sense to fit speakons plugs once. But out of curiosity as I have 100m of 16awg (2 core) if I used 2 runs (4 core) and twisted together x2 for + and x2 - as it is now thicker does this become a lower AWG? RoadRunnersDust: A. “Mixing two different types of bass bin and two different types of drivers will make this *much* harder for you. It is generally inadvisable as the interaction between the two different speakers invariably causes more issues than you gain by having more speakers.” Q. Im not sure if I’ve asked this before but as I have 8 outs on my DSP & 4 Amps is there a way of having x5 sets of speakers or would I require x10 outs? Highs Upper Mids Lower Miss W Bin Bass Sun Bass Also would x3 8ohm speakers per channel become 2ohm load per channel ? Or are my calculations wrong? |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 25 May 2023 at 2:12pm
Two bits of 16AWG (~1.5mm^2) would give you an effective cross sectional area of about 13AWG (~3mm^2)
You could run everything in mono which would only need 5 DSP outputs If you had another amplifier and 10 DSP outputs or a separate DSP for your Bass and Sub then you could run the bass and sub in mono If you want to run full stereo then a better solution may be to have separate amp racks for your left and right stack which would keep your speaker cables shorter
2x 8 Ohm speakers in parallel gives you 4.00 Ohm 3x 8 Ohm speakers in parallel gives you 2.66 Ohm 4x 8 Ohm speakers in parallel gives you 2.00 Ohm ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 25 May 2023 at 11:45pm
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RoadRunnersDust: Cable: I’ve been searching 12awg speaker cable and I’m finding 1.) GearIt - 2core 12awg CL3 (says outdoor burial?) 30m £60 2.) Van Damme - 2 core 12awg (cpfarnell) 30m £120 Is there any other UK brands/sellers? I suspected I needed x10 outputs or x2 more Kappa & a bigger amp to have x5 levels to Stack or have a line of x6 bass but was just double checking. It would have been nice to run it in two stacks in certain situations but it does add extra complications of extra long links between the 2 stacks in larger rooms. I presume though a single stack is still run with stereo switch on. The Crown does parallel & Bridged Mono could I switch the Subs & W Bins to this Amp does this help? (Put the x2 215 cabs through the INuke? Or am I again totally not understanding what Bridged Mono is for?) Subs & W Bins: I had 2.66ohm when I did the calculations for ‘3x 8 Ohm speakers in parallel’ so does this mean speakers linked in parallel lose power? Does this apply to my dual Cabs linked in series internally then parallel outside? I know mixing 2 types of cabs (subs & W bins) is a no no but from what I’m told when the Kappa & Omega where in the subs the specs are so similar the past owner saw no problem but if I did have x2 subs (kappa) & x1 w bin (omega) per channel at 2.66ohm would this give less bass than the x4 subs (kappa) alone? Reason I’m asking daft questions like this is just to understand so if I was tempted to experiment I’m not blowing the drivers & amp! |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 26 May 2023 at 2:00am
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 26 May 2023 at 6:40am
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Conanski: I think as you have been trying to tell me less is more and I have been trying to use all the cabs/drivers just because I have them so I’ve had a rethink. I’m thinking of dropping the dual 12” UPPER MID Cabs (Jamo Drivers) for a few reasons: 1. They are Jamos as people keep telling me. 2. I can sell on the x4 Jamos as the empty cabs will take up storage space anyway. 3. The dual 12” cabs arent really deep enough to stack Horn box on without overhang. So if I swop in the W-Bins cabs in place of the 12” Jamos at Upper Mid Level, I have a few options in the 15” drivers. Which do you feel would fit in the stack best? HIGH x2 Horns Horn: https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/rx-22-ct-driver/p/03616190 Amp: https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/productresources/amp/discontinued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_specs.pdf UPPER MID x2 W Bins: (they take 15” each) Options: x2 15” Omega (I presume I would need a bigger Amp for these as the GX3 Is only 300w per channel at 8ohm and the Omega are 800w/8ohm) https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/omega_pro_15a x2 HH Acoustics 1500 Series 200w/8ohm: (Would work with QSC GX3 amp as they are 200w each but I have no info on them! Is there a way of working out the frequencies etc?) Amp: https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/" rel="nofollow - https://www.qsc.com/solutions-products/power-amplifiers/portable/2-channel/gx-series/gx3/ LOWER MID x2 15” Dual Cabs x4 PV BW: https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140" rel="nofollow - https://peavey.com/black-widow-1508-4-sps-bwx-speaker/p/00560140 Amp: https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500" rel="nofollow - https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xli3500 BASS x4 EV Cubo: x4 Kappa https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2" rel="nofollow - https://eminence.com/products/kappa_pro_15lf2 Amp: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q" rel="nofollow - https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1Q |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 26 May 2023 at 10:56pm
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I’m gonna mount the x2 HH Acoustics (1500 Series 200w/8ohm and give them a listen. I’ll do the Jamos too and see what sounds the best. They are 200w each but I have no info on them! Is there a way of roughly working out the frequencies or some specs by dimensions? Or should I treat them as same range as Jamos and tweak by ear? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 12:49am
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W bins won't work as upper mids... they're probably not much good as low mids either.. the fold in the horn cancels or heavily attenuates a lot of those mid frequencies. But the Dual 15 boxes will do mids no problem. The system you should try is.. PV horns - high Dual 15's - mids W bins - kick Cubos - subs. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 1:48am
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What drivers would be best in the W Bins as Kicks? I presume it would mean using the Eminence Omega Pro and getting a bigger amp as it makes GX3 redundant for bass/kicks or at only 300w a channel.
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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 2:48am
| The GX3 on mids should do fine, keep the bigger amps for kicks and subs. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 8:12am
| If Specs say GX3 can only take 300w per channel at 8ohm and I put x2 (x4) PV 4ohm 500w continuous (1000w program/2000w peak) through why would it not blow amp putting 500w+ through a 300w amp? Would I have to be cautious not to push them too high (max volumes/setting limits etc is a question for when it’s functioning as a stack but Im being cautious now so as not to push capabilities) |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 12:07pm
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I would suggest more research on the basic's try wiki how or wiki pedia. The Yamaha guide is often cited as a good resource https://bgaudioclub.org/uploads/docs/Yamaha_Sound_Reinforcement_Handbook_2nd_Edition_Gary_Davis_Ralph_Jones.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://bgaudioclub.org/uploads/docs/Yamaha_Sound_Reinforcement_Handbook_2nd_Edition_Gary_Davis_Ralph_Jones.pdf
------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: KDW32
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 1:38pm
That's been suggested a few times to SnailSpace. It really is good advice.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 27 May 2023 at 2:23pm
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I had a quick look but I was a bit blinded by the science. For me at this stage, I need an idiots guide and to ask basic questions! Videos on YouTube can do only so much but it’s the personal knowledge/experience I’m finding most helpful and informative. Once it’s wired and running I will find the time and a quiet place to delve into amp/dsp manuals and the Yamaha guide. Thanks though
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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 28 May 2023 at 2:13am
 Lets try this... Amplifiers produce power(voltage really but lets keep is simple for now).. speakers consume it. An 8ohm load is very safe for a pro power amp, it's not hard to push a small amp like this to it's limits but it's nearly impossible to blow it up under these conditions.. it will protect itself and hopefully the person running the system will hear something distorting and pull back on the controls a little. A speaker will work just fine with any amount of power from miliwatts up to it's maximum peak handling capacity as long as the mechanical or electrical limitations of the driver are not exceeded. Key thing to note... for low frequency drivers and those you have in particular they will reach a mechanical limit long before hitting an electrical limit, so forget you ever saw the those peak power handling specs.
When it comes to a multiway speaker system like yours the only thing that matters is producing enough SPL in each bandwidth to compliment all the others, so that is what you need to focus on. You have a bunch of mismatched cabs and drivers so you won't be pushing anything except the subs to thier limits, I know this from experience and you will soon too.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 28 May 2023 at 11:37am
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Thanks yeah that makes sense Conanski. PS I will do my homework when all the physical work is done…promise
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 29 May 2023 at 11:05pm
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I think I’ve sourced some decent amount of cable, 2 core shielded which already has some speakons on also, when I’ve asked what AWG it is they said they don’t know but has sent a photo and it’s 4mm in diameter (multi stranded twisted copper). Now when I’ve looked and put it in a mm to AWG calculator it has come back as 8/9AWG So after looking on YouTube I realised you measure by the strand for stranded then so a calculation? As it’s unlikely the seller has an AWG tool the only info I have is that it is multi stranded and when put on a ruler it has a diameter of 4mm? Is there a way of knowing the AWG? |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 29 May 2023 at 11:15pm
| a lot of people on here are in europe where we don't encounter AWG measurments much, and aren't really familiar with it.. but 4mm cable is more than enough for anything you should be doing. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 29 May 2023 at 11:30pm
| That’s what’s been confusing me is not all manufacturers put the AWG info on. But then I found stranded wire also has another calculation cross sectional area of each strand x amount of strands! Obviously it being audio you need stranded for flexibility but basing it on it being OFC copper 4mm diameter multi strand is there a UK/European system? |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 29 May 2023 at 11:40pm
| i'm doing this 20 years or more.. have loads of systems and hundreds of meters of adequate 4 core cable of either 2.5mm or 4mm CSA.. and i have no idea about strand counts and have never had any reason to know... you're overthinking weird details here in my opinion.. rubberised cable is nice. |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 12:41am
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4mm^2 is what you need, it refers to the 'Cross Sectional Area' (CSA) of the conductor. The diameter of the conductor is a totally different measurement and of no real use to you. Stranded wire is often quoted as the diameter per strand x number of strands. You will need to use some PiR^2 sorts of maths to use that to work out the CSA. You also do not want shielded cable for speaker cable. If what you are looking at is shielded then it suggests it is massively inappropriate for use. ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 1:03am
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RoadRunnersDust: Sorry yeah don’t know why I put ‘shielded’. I knew you mentioned 4mm2 but yes doing it by CSA on the online calculator would make it around 11awg. Cravings: It’s my first system so I probably am overthinking it but when I listened to the Life in Dub Podcast (Steve Vibronics well worth a listen) I heard so many tales of blown amps & speakers I’m double checking
and taking it easy out the blocks…’Measure twice cut once!’ |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 1:11am
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mm^2 and AWG don't match up perfectly and AWG generally skips the odd sizes for larger conductors. 12AWG is more accurately about 3mm^2 so when you try to convert 4mm^2 into AWG you often get an answer of 10AWG (~5mm^2 but actually available) or 11AWG which is technically accurate but nearly impossible to buy in any useful format. For your purposes whilst 12AWG may be perfectly fine, you're basically trying to order cable using the wrong language for your region. You want to be looking for 4mm^2. There really isn't any way around the fact that it's not cheap either. It'll either be the proper stuff and fit for use or it'll be shite ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 9:03am
red lights pretty much mean stop. that's a basic that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 30 May 2023 at 11:55am
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Ok so calculating Sockets & Plugs before I order (as I don’t want to under order as it’s cheaper in bulk & postage but like wise don’t want to over order): NL4 Sockets: HIGH x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 MIDS x2 (dual) - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 KICKS x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 SUBS x2 - L x2 (x1 in/x1 out) R x1 out = Already Fitted SUBS x2 - L x2 (x1 in/x1,out) R x1 out = Already Fitted Speakon Plugs: (Speaker end / NL4 but wired 2 pole) (H/M/K Speakers - Linked by x1 run to Amp) HIGH x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 MIDS x2 (Dual) - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 KICKS x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3 (Subs linked by x2 runs to amp) SUBS x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3? SUBS x2 - L x2 (in/out) R x1 out = x3? (If Subs are linked by x1 run to amp? Does this mean an extra socket on x1 of cabs and x7 plugs?) Speakon Plugs: (Amp end) HIGH - L & R Linked x1 (2 core back to amp) = x2 (x1 for + x1 for -) MIDS - L & R Linked x1 (2 core back to amp) = x2 (x1 for + x1 for -) KICKS - L & R Linked x1 (2 core back to amp) = x2 (x1 for + x1 for -) SUBS - L x2 = ? (Depends on how linked?) SUBS - R x2 = ? (Depends on how linked?) Conanski wrote: “Typically if the amp has a dual mono mode then a single input signal on ChA drives both output channels, if it doesn't have that option then you need to put the same summed signal on 2 DSP outputs to drive both amp channels or use a Y cable.” https://www.juno.co.uk/products/behringer-nu6000-inuke-6000w-power-amplifier/486205-01/" rel="nofollow - https://www.juno.co.uk/products/behringer-nu6000-inuke-6000w-power-amplifier/486205-01/ Q. Given the iNuke I have has Stereo (dual mono) & Mono I presume I use Stereo? Q. Do I link x4 Sub Speakers and have x1 run back to amp? Q. Or do I have x2 runs back to amp? R x2 Subs - x1 Link run between subs and x1 run to amp of 2 core. L x2 Subs - x1 Link run between subs and x1 run to amp of 2 core. How do I then wire at Anp end given x2+ x2-? Q. So how do I then plug speaker end & amp end? Q. Do I need a ‘Y cable’ and where does it go between? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 3:30am
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I'm not following anything in your last post... seems WAAAY more complicated than it needs to be but it could just be the way you are describing it. A most you need 8 longer cables between the amp rack and speakers and 2 shorter cables to link the extra sub boxes to the first pair, but if you are buying 4-core cable you could take advantage of the NL4 connectors and cut that to 4 long runs and 4 shorter jumper cables. In that scenario the subs and kick signals are carried on one 4 core and the mids and highs on the other, the only catch with that is you need a patch panel in the amp rack to make it work.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 7:43am
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I’m using 2 core. Sorry I’ve described them as left and right but they will be in one stack. I suppose my main question is about the Subs with them being x4 seperate cabs (rest of stack H/M/K are all x2)
The High/Mid/kicks will all be linked to each other by short runs (so x3) then a long run from High/Mid/Kicks back to the amp (x3). So I suppose what I’m asking is about the Subs as I have x4 separate Subs x2 with x2 speakon sockets (NL4) and x2 with x1 speakon socket (NL4) do I link them as a x4 with x3 short runs & x1 long run to amp or will it be x2 short links & x2 runs back to amp? Then what happens at the amp? If it’s x1 run of 2 core I presume I add a Speakon on the + & a Speakon on the -. but if it’s x2 long runs of 2 core when they get to the amp do I combine the x2+ &x2- to one NL4 Speakon? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 2:32pm
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 4:56pm
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I thought if I used 2 core when it got to the amp you put a Speakon on Red and a Speakon on black like with Bananas forgetting you have x4 Bananas and Speakons are combined within. So Speakons with 2 core it’s 8 long runs and Speakons with 4 core it would be 4 runs! I presume I only need x1 socket on the H/M/K cabs now too.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 11:14pm
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After looking at the price of 4-core I’m going to stick with the 2-core as I can get 100m 2-core at less than a quarter of the price of 100m 4-core (I think 4-core is a purchase for a later date) I will split the 100m 2-core into x8 12m and use the remainder for the x2 short links on Subs. I’ll also buy NL4 Sockets/Plugs for if I buy 4-core at a later date? NL4 Sockets: x2 HIGH - Lx1/Rx1 (1 per cab) = x2 x2 MIDS (dual) - Lx1/Rx1 (1 per cab) = x2 x2 KICKS - Lx1/Rx1 (1 per cab) = x2 x4 SUBS - Already Fitted Speakon Plugs: (Speaker end / NL4 but wired 2 pole) x2 HIGH - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x2 MIDS (Dual) - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x2 KICKS - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x4 SUBS - Lx1 & Lx2/Rx1 & Rx2 = x6 Speakon Plugs: (Amp end) x2 HIGH - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x2 MIDS (Dual) - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x2 KICKS - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 x4 SUBS - Lx1/Rx1 = x2 |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 31 May 2023 at 11:28pm
You woud need a second speakon socket on 1 cab to supply the link to the second cab. This is where 4-core cable makes sense but you don't need 4mm cable for mids and highs 2.5 - 3mm would be fine, in fact for what you have 3MM would be fine for all of it. And to produce the most flexability... to enable you to setup with everything in one stack or separate them into 2 stacks and not have to make any wiring changes, you want to split the signals vertically instead of horizontally. What that means is that instead of using a 4core for L and R highs use it for L mids and highs with the mids are on 1+/1- pins and the highs on 2+/2- pins. That requires a fanout at the amp rack, the 1+1- pins connect to a channel of the high amplifier and the 2+2- pins to a channel of the mid amplifier, but you don't have to use more speakons for that, bare wire or bananas are fine for this.. This is a patch panel fanout I have using this method...  That pair of NL4 speakon plugs in the middle of the panel supply the mids and highs to a pair of speakers that are internally biamped. Here is the panel mounted on the front of the rack, I use 14ga 4core for all this.  |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 12:22am
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Conanski A. “You woud need a second speakon socket on 1 cab to supply the link to the second cab.” Q. So even with 2 core the L cab needs x1 socket and the R needs 2 sockets? I thought that was only if they where in one stack and you were linking them in order to send back just x1 run back to amp and that method would require 4-core? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 1:45am
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Yeah, it doesn't matter if you are using 2-core or 4-core, to get a signal from one box to another requires a second dedicated connector on one of the boxes. If there is only 1 connector on each box then you need a cable from each box back to the amplifier. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 8:28am
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Ok so putting aside the idea of fanning out at the Amp. On the H/M/K lf I have x1 socket on L cab and x2 on R I only need a link cable from L to R and one long run of 2-core back to Amp? But doesn’t that mean I’m only going into only 1 channel? I thought I needed to go into both channels A & B? Or is that just when running x2 stacks not x1 stack?
High/Mid/Kicks only have x2 Cabs. Subs have x4 which are linked by short runs in x2s L/R so will need x2 Long runs (I have opened so I understand how they are wired internally and why they need x2 runs back to amp but I’m struggling to understand whether my H/M/K need x1 run each back to amp or x1 as a linked pair? Can the H/M/K be wired the same as Subs and linked by a short run then x1 long run to amp but that would mean H/M/K are using x1 channel on their dedicated amps but the Subs are using x2 channels? What are the implications of this? Might be easier for me if I break it down so I know how Sockets & plugs are wired and linked as I’m confused or forgetting some info that is making me miss something (again  ):-L Cab x1 Socket Speaker wired to 1+1-. -R Cab x1 Socket Speaker wired to 1+1-. -R Cab x1 Socket has a short run of red+ & black- between sockets. -Link length Plugs wired 1+1- -Long length Plug wired 1+1- -Long length goes into just one channel when running x1 stack?
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 12:44pm
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Socapex? ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 12:48pm
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Oh, and do some shopping around for cable, 4 core 100M should always be cheaper than 2 core 200M. Go with H07-RNF by titanex or linex, DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON “SPEAKER CABLE “, its always more expensive, its always worse to handle and it will not last as long. Sounds to me that you could save yourself a lot of bother and future technical issues by getting someone competent to design and build you a cabling system ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 1:18pm
Utter bullshit ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 1:28pm
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Thanks for the advice I’ll have a look at suggested cable but I think you miss understand I can get 100m of 2-core 4mm2 for £80 (used) but when I searched 4-core 4mm2 was £400 for 100m. I know it’s testing peoples patience but I want to learn how to wire the system correctly plus I’m on a budget. I’m competent at soldering and I understand how 2 sockets are linked internally but because I’m new to speakons I’m trying to limit runs back to amp if possible by using links which I’m new to. Because my x4 Sub Cabs have x2 have IN/OUT Speakon Sockets and x2 have Single Sockets I understand they are linked by x1 short Link then x1 long run per pair 1 to ChA on amp and 1 to ChB on Amp. But because the rest of the system consists of pairs x2 High Cabs, x2 Dual Mid Cabs, x2 Kick Cabs I presume if I linked each pair (section H/M/K) with a short run and x1 long run the long runs would only be going into 1 channel on the amp? What am I not understand? Is it ok to have subs in x2 Channels but H/M/K going into just x1 channel on their dedicated Amps? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 2:01pm
30 years of industry experience tells me its not. But continue wasting your money if you prefer ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 2:21pm
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Either way cheapest I found was £410 for 100m and I’m still none the wiser about my wiring configuration and whilst it’s in danger of getting lost in the chat I’ll post it again: Conanski wrote: “Yeah, it doesn't matter if you are using 2-core or 4-core, to get a signal from one box to another requires a second dedicated connector on one of the boxes. If there is only 1 connector on each box then you need a cable from each box back to the amplifier.” So as I’m new to speakons I’m trying to limit runs back to amp if possible by using links which I’m new to. (So putting aside the idea of fanning out at the Amp.) On the H/M/K lf I have x1 socket on L cab and x2 on R I only need a link cable from L to R and one long run of 2-core back to Amp? But doesn’t that mean I’m only going into only 1 channel? I thought I needed to go into both channels A & B? Or is that just when running x2 stacks not x1 stack? High/Mid/Kicks only have x2 Cabs. Subs have x4 which are linked by short runs in x2s L/R so will need x2 Long runs (I have opened so I understand how they are wired internally and why they need x2 runs back to amp but I’m struggling to understand whether my H/M/K need x1 run each back to amp or x1 as a linked pair? Can the H/M/K be wired the same as Subs and linked by a short run then x1 long run to amp but that would mean H/M/K are using x1 channel on their dedicated amps but the Subs are using x2 channels? What are the implications of this? It may be easier and help me if I break it down so I know how Sockets & plugs are wired and linked as I’m confused or forgetting some info that is making me miss something (again -L Cab x1 Socket Speaker wired to 1+1-. -R Cab x1 Socket Speaker wired to 1+1-. -R Cab x1 Socket has a short run of red+ & black- between sockets. -Link length Plugs wired 1+1- -Long length Plug wired 1+1- -Long length goes into just one channel when running x1 stack? Because my x4 Sub Cabs have x2 have IN/OUT Speakon Sockets and x2 have Single Sockets I understand they are linked by x1 short Link then x1 long run per pair 1 to ChA on amp and 1 to ChB on Amp. But because the rest of the system consists of pairs x2 High Cabs, x2 Dual Mid Cabs, x2 Kick Cabs I presume if I linked each pair (section H/M/K) with a short run and x1 long run the long runs would only be going into 1 channel on the amp? What am I not understand? Is it ok to have subs in x2 Channels but H/M/K going into just x1 channel on their dedicated Amps? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 2:25pm
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 2:28pm
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And yet the industry uses speaker lead… Also, just to clarify:
Rubber mains flex as speakerlead is the domain of fuckwits and amateurs ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 2:37pm
(New @ Electric Cable Company) 100m 2G2.5 £99.60 100m 4G2.5 £195.60 100m 2G4.0 £152.40 100m 4G4.0 £296.40 Not the greatest speaker lead on the planet but it works and doesn’t twist up like a slinky. (Shits on HO7-RNF from a great height after you’ve had to coil up a trunk of leads ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 4:14pm
| Thanks RoadRunnersDust I’ll have look at that them very good price and only need to buy exactly what I need. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 4:24pm
I think I’m confusing issues as with home speakers I’ve only ever used a +&- run per speaker back to Amp. So now I’m trying to limit those runs by linking speakers. But when you speak of Dual/Stereo is this configuration is it so I can have it in x2 stacks in different parts of the room? |
Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 5:15pm
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If your running 4 frequency bands per side Consider two runs of 8x2.5mms on NL8's either chassis mount with NL4 chassis link outs.. Or with NL8 couplers and NL8 fan out to 4 x NL2 , Far less cable to manage on build, breakdowns & storage... ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 10:37pm
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Ok so I’m going to try a different approach. As a creative by trade I’m a visual person so I’ll find it easier to explain via illustrations and I’ll take it stage by stage. Here are some drawings of how the Subs Sockets are wired. Firstly are they wired correctly? If so is this what I role out across my High/Mid/Kick Cabs?
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 10:42pm
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That is mostly correct. The link over to 2- is unnecessary. If you want to be able to wire up all of your cabinets on 2-core NL2 cables then that is how you would wire all of the cabinets with the exception of the 2- link
------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 10:47pm
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I thought it had an unnecessary wire as the other one has this configuration. So is this correct?
 |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 10:56pm
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This is the correct wiring for a cabinet wired on 1+/- with a link out. Now that that is clear, it always makes sense t wire the link for 2+/- even if nothing is connected to it so that the cabinets can pass-through 4-core cable should they ever be used with it in future  ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 11:20pm
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Thanks! Makes sense. I’ll come back to Links, Plugs & Runs back to Amp tomorrow!
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Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 01 June 2023 at 11:33pm
Yes, but the way you are currently planning to wire things that wouldn't be easy to do.. you would have to buy even more speaker wire for it, but the method I'm suggesting can be run as a single big stack or 2 separate stacks with no wiring changes.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 12:34am
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Conanski Wrote: “And to produce the most flexability... to enable you to setup with everything in one stack or separate them into 2 stacks and not have to make any wiring changes, you want to split the signals vertically instead of horizontally. What that means is that instead of using a 4core for L and R highs use it for L mids and highs with the mids are on 1+/1- pins and the highs on 2+/2- pins.” So with this method do you also ‘fan out’ the 4-core speaker cable at the (vertical) High & Mid Cabs by removing the outer protection to reveal the x4 wires and use the Red 1+/Blue 1- wires for Mids & Yellow 2-/Green 2+ wires? Isn’t this a bit of a mess? Or do I heat shrink them? I presume I also do the same with the Kicks & Mids? So they are on x1 long run back to amp that then needs fanning at the amp? So in total x4 long runs of 4-core back to amps? x2 on Left x2 on Right? So when do the short links come into the equation? |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 12:40am
| Ahi are the short runs so you don’t fan cable at the cab end and is the patch panel so you don’t need to fan cable at the amps. You fan from patch panel to amps? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 1:19am
I see a light bulb coming on.  Yes, at the speaker end the "fanout" happens inside the first cab at the end of the 4-core.. the 1+1- go to the driver in that box and the 2+2- cables simply link to the output connector to feed the next box. At the amp rack each NL4 fans out go to whetever amp output they need to.  |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 9:23am
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Yeah the light bulb finally came on! I hope… So I need to add another Socket to the Sub with x1 so can plug in the Kick with a short link that’s wired 2+2-. Does anyone know the name and size of the clips/plugs that are crimped to the end of Speaker Wire and attach to back of speakon sockets?
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Posted By: KDW32
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 9:44am
Neutrik NL Faston
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 11:32am
Any advice on these? I can see they are universally known as ‘4.8mm crimp spade terminals’, the ones marketed as NL Faston look the most reliable as they have x2 sets of metal arms you crimp but the eBay ones that come pre insulated and you feed in the wire then crimp I don’t really like - so how do I insulate the ones with the metal arms? Do I use heat shrink or can you get crimp insulation seperate that you put on the cable then push over & crimp, if so any idea what that is called?
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 2:35pm
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You can either use fully insulated 4.8x0.5 spade crimps or you can use the AMP / Neutrik Fastons with a transparent little soft rubber boot that slides over them. Heat shrink over fastons is a bad idea for two reasons: it makes them a bastard to remove in future for no good reason and if the stars align just right, the heat shrink can press the release tab and allow them to fall off ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 3:56pm
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Thanks. Conanski mentioned 14awg for inside the upper Mid cabs. I notice in the Subs there are x2 different types of cable, but I’m wondering if it makes sense to use some of the 2.5mm2 internally on the High/Mid & some of the 4mm2 internally on the Kicks/Subs? Is it good practice or should wire internally be slightly smaller than external?
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Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 4:16pm
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2.5mm is fine for inside of all the cabinets. I don’t recommend using fully jacketed cable inside of cabinets though, it’s awkward and the weight puts strain on the connections ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 02 June 2023 at 10:45pm
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Thanks makes sense! Nice one everyone! I think I’m set now! Head took a beating this week trying to understand all that I bet yours did too - again thanks for bearing with me! Enjoy your Weekends 
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 04 June 2023 at 4:52am
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Inside cabinets even 1,5 mm² wiring is totally fine, it will not cause any harm or loss, but it will be a lot easier to work with. Power losses only occur over longer distances with inadequate wiregauge.
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 10 June 2023 at 8:52am
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If I’m running my sound system at home on low in a smaller room should I also buy extra wire to make short runs to amp rather than using the longer runs I would use for venues for audio quality & gear safety reasons or is it just the practicality of storing a wrap of wires? Obviously doing shorter runs to avoid big wraps of wires means extra cost for connectors so just looking at options. Thanks |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 10 June 2023 at 2:31pm
| It shouldn't make any difference what size room you setup in because the amplifiers should always be next to the speaker stack/s. The only really long cable runs should be the XLR links between the amp rack and mixer/DJ controller, or in a situation where you split the rig into 2 stacks and you only have 1 DSP there would be some more longer XLR cables between stacks. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 10 June 2023 at 3:04pm
| Most dub Reggae sessions I go to the stack is always facing the stack and away from the Amplifiers connected by long runs? |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 10 June 2023 at 8:07pm
| Yeah I see videos like that all over the internet, in some they have the amps up on stands at head level way out front with the operator who spends all kinds of time turning things up and down. I don't get it, it a terrible way to setup a sound system from a performance and logistics point of view and why would they need to do so much of what looks like "testing", once the rig is configured and dialed in it should be a plug and play exercise every time after that. You will never see a setup like this at big name concert or a DJ festival stage. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 10 June 2023 at 9:06pm
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I suppose that’s the difference Festivals & Live events mainly opt for everything done by the letter - Jamaican/UK Sound System Culture is all about individuality and personalising a sound. Roots/Reggae/Dub sound system in UK had a major influence on UK electronic music I’ve been around both scenes/genres for a long time and I’ve gravitated back to Dub Sound System because the sound still hits and has a signature sound it has a soul, the thing that first drew me to the dancefloor. Now UK electronic music venues and festivals etc are a very bland sound. You still get the odd place with a quality sound but I find no festival or club I’ve been too large or small can touch the best of Dub Sound Systems! Dub/Reggae selectors/operators use their stack as their monitor with no headphones and choose to place in an optimal position to hear music. All the tweaking you see is because most use records and most record production/pressings/Masterings/age can differ and all effect the sound plus the use of delay units etc Personal taste but I’ve been to big events with the most expensive sounds and it’s been swimming around in the wind, how sound engineers can get it so wrong is beyond me, even small venues who have DJs on have expensive speakers or off the peg sound systems and they sound garbage and soulless…my Jamos sound better ;) ha.
Anyway back to question, when I put figures into calculations obviously it give you different awg figures for distances, so I suppose question is - is their loss over distance even if wire is coiled in a smaller venue or is it minimal. At home amp to Stack is only 2-4m from amp but I would like to have atleast 25m so I can put it in garden or small venues taking into account wire strung around a few corners etc |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 11 June 2023 at 2:14am
And I wasn't using the large festival/concert events as a measure for sound quality(no argument there), that often takes a back seat to other things like budget, SPL limitations/regulations, contract specifics, customer expectations, etc. It was just meant to be a reference for what makes an efficient and flexible gear package .. two things that are very important for somebody doing events in different venues all the time.. regardless how large or small the show is.
But a few points to think about. - Just because everybody else does something a certain way doesn't mean it's the best solution. - Experience has shown me that if you build a sound system that is a blank canvas more or less... something that sounds decent on a wide range of tracks within a genre or even across genres, it's then easier to get the results you want with relatively monor changes on your FOH equipment during an event. - To that end, once the system basics are setup.. crossover, delay, corrective EQ, limiting, level balancing, then there should be no need to alter any of these settings at an event. Doing so would compromise the safety of the rig because the whole point of configuring all this is to extract maximum performance from the gear on hand. But that doesn't mean you can't shape the sound or correct/enhance recordings that are sub par, when digital files became a thing I would run new tracks through a SW package called Cool Edit pro, with that I could change the level, add EQ, remove glitches or edit out sections I didn't want, and doing this ahead of time saves a lot of trouble at an event. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 11 June 2023 at 7:58am
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Yeah I think the main uses will be as one stack facing amps but not a huge distance other than that in x2 seperate stacks. I do have a broad record collection so it will still need to be flexible. Personally I’ve always hated monitor dj set ups and have always preferred to have my turntable/amp in middle of speakers or house speakers in venue facing. And as I you say there will probably be another post at a later date when I finally get set up and set best settings and everything will be tweaked via mixer. I’ll be happy and hopefully have built a Stack Sound System for the price of a pre amp!
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 11 June 2023 at 2:27pm
Its because a reggae soundsystem is used as a kind of musical instrument in its own right, the direct opposite of a pa where transparency is the main goal. In reggae culture the pre amp is used to manipulate the sound. This dates back to the way King Tubby would emulate a mixing desk capabilities when playing back a record hence being able to cut frequencies completely or add or boost with the use of parametrics. I don't expect anyone outside of this beautiful unique culture to understand whatsoever. Also, with reggae production, different labels have different sounds so at high volumes you want to quickly adjust to cater for this. The tradition of having amps by the operator is to keep them away from people who may be in competition with you (or your soundsystem) and maliciously tamper with them. Reggae soundsystem is completely different from the term 'public address system.
------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 11 June 2023 at 3:47pm
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Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 12 June 2023 at 1:16pm
| I suppose it doesn’t matter what genre, format or setting those with the knowledge come from as long as the knowledge is kept alive on places like this in an age when people move away from bigger set ups & analogue gear it all helps as the originators are now elders or no longer with us. For me a Sound System Unites in an social setting, probably why they brought in draconian laws in the UK - along with the CJB, commercialisation and smartphones it’s important to keep the principles alive through those with lived experience whether it’s to the letter or individual tweaks! It’s all been very helpful for me to listen to the differing perspectives. |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 12 June 2023 at 1:23pm
These are the Speakon Connectors on my Subs, can anyone identify them? They have 1-1+2-2+ inside and my NLF4X plug in but does it mate with it? Is it compatible? |
Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 12 June 2023 at 1:26pm
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That is an NL4MP, it has now been superseded by the NL4MPXX which is functionally the same. NL2FC/NL2FX/NL4FC/NL4FX will mate with them. ---------- The NL2MP is the 2-pin version. HOWEVER, *ONLY* the NL2FC/NL2FX can mate with the NL2MP. ------------- www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk |
Posted By: SnailSpace
Date Posted: 12 June 2023 at 1:45pm
Great thought I might have to replace them 
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