Hey all!

After intensive reading of this forum on the subject for 4 days i do think that is better to ask you guys for confirmation before push "Add to cart" button in the shop, so this is my first post :)

I do have an BI-amped audio system which is split in 2 parts, one is for bass duties below 100Hz and second part is do their job from 100Hz UP.

I'm interesting to buy an amplifier which can play well on lowest notes (30Hz or lower) in my small ~17sqm room with a 230v/13A grid.

I do not want much of SPL because i rarely listening music or watching movies on loud levels but i do really need to constantly "feel" that subbass presence even if music plays just as background because i'm kind of "silent SUBbasshead" I'm not interesting on >30Hz tones, just for low low low frequencies...that what is interesting me. I'm listening mostly electronic - techno, dnb, dubstep and similar bass heavy music.

Currently i do have this plate amplifier:

https://www.speakerpower.net/store/p30/SP1-6000-HT_Subwoofer_Plate_Amplifier. - https://www.speakerpower.net/store/p30/SP1-6000-HT_Subwoofer_Plate_Amplifier.html

It is mounted into my Mark Seaton Submersive HP subwoofer:

https://seaton.net/product/submersivehp/ - https://seatonsound.net/product/submersivehp/

Also i do own an additional HP Slave module of that subwoofer, so this single Speakerpower SP1-6000 amp feeds in total 4 Eminence LAB15 drivers because each of the boxes has 2 loudspeakers like this one:

https://eminence.com/products/lab_15#specifications - https://eminence.com/products/lab_15#specifications

600rms/1200Wprogram

4OHM

These drivers are custom modified for Mark Seaton by Eminence and instead of 6 Ohms they have 4.5 Ohms (have checked that myself with a multimeter)

SpeakerPower SP1-6000 amp operates perfectly good and without issues but...works in mono only. I want to change that. 

My plan is to pull out that plate amplifier and make 2 subwoofer boxes to operate in stereo with an external amp via DSP (which i have already - MiniDSP SHD studio with DIRAC).

Also i do have an BK Electronics Monolith+ active subwoofer which is good on low notes and will be in tandem with those above...

So my question - is there any better, new or used, than "usual suspects"  for a Deep, Low, Powerful, Heavy, walls, floor and skull shattering BASS than:

-Proline 3000

-Audio Crest CA18

-EV P3000 / Dynacord L2400

-Crown MA-5000

-Kind XT4000

-Void Infinite MK2

-QSC MX3000 / JBL MPX1200

Many of those heavyweights are old now and hard enough to find in a good shape, hence first in the list is Proline 3000 which i can buy new here in Europe.

Or is better to look into class D ones? If so, then which one is good enough for sub bass duties below 30Hz? 

I do have some offers for used but in good shape PKN amplifiers (XD4000, XE4000, XE5002, XE6000) but do afraid that they cannot do properly on sub bass tones and are only good for upper frequencies what for me is no go and full stop.

In older posts on this forum i have read that for really low bass frequencies transformer based heavyweight amps are much much better, it is true even today?

So guys, please help me to spend my money wisely and make a right decision which way to go - new T.Amp Proline 3000 or any of used but in good condition PKN amps? Or maybe there is another, even better choice to fulfill my SUBbass-head needs? :)

(Yes, i know there is a bigger brother of Proline 3000 exists - AONE4400, but is unavailable)

So in summary:

Small 17sqm room

4 Subwoofer drivers (each of 600rms/1200program watts, 4OHMS) 

~1000, at very most 1500 euros to feed them.

What are my choices?

Thank you!

Zilvinas

Your bigger problem may be that if you realy intend to have 30hz bass (thats low af) the sub that are able to do it will take half of your room 

Thanks for the answer!

Yes, i know that T.Amps sucks and all is made from cheap parts in China, also do know about particular Proline's 3000 appetite to eat speaker drivers if this amp going into clipping state but i do have read also that this amp has a nice tone for warm and beautiful bass what i'm after for. From my hifi system i'm hoping for a low listening levels but with a bass that can go insanely low.

Also i'm understand what are you saying about size of the subwoofers to reach those depths, but i did choose another way to solve this - both of Mark Seaton's subs are literally about 40-50cm from my ears, one box for left ear and one box for right ear :) This is extremely near-field listening and thus i'm not having much of the loses in sound. Those subs are capable to dig deep down into ~12HZ...

From what i read seems that class D amplifiers is incapable to reach and maintain sound into such a low frequencies, but if this is not true, then i'll be glad because PKN amps are 1U and fits better into my HIFI rack.

BrainlessTekno wrote: not sure where did you get the 12HZ from but it is not true, even 30hz is more of a feeling than hearing. 12hz is unhearable for your ears.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/subwoofers/seaton-sound-submersive-hpi-subwoofer/

Did get from here and also from personal testing with online frequency generator. And yes, i know that humans can hear till about 20Hz, but thing is that i want to hear and feel, not just hear :)

Just make sure you are feeding the amplifier 208 - 250 volts if you live in a part of the world where 100 - 120 volts is the standard. 

Best Regards, 

Probably i do need to be more specific but my English is poor, so sorry. 

OK, let's take one example here:

Let's imagine a sound system with all components connected and ready to play bass heavy music only just the button "Pause" holds the system from doing that. Amplifier "A"(heavyweight) is involved for this time.

Now i'm putting an SPL meter (whatever app from google app store who has possibility to show percepted SPL value on exact frequencies). SPL meter is ON and waiting to measure levels into exact spot at my listening position.

I'm pushing the PLAY button on the sound system and music starts to play.

I'm looking only into 15-30Hz region on a scale of SPL meter and for example it show 90dB at 20Hz.

OK.

Then i'm disconnecting amplifier "A" and in place of that amplifier putting amplifier "B"(class D lightweight).

Music the same, cables the same, speakers the same, overall SPL the same...all the system is absolutely identical to that previous and only amplifier is changed.

Now i'm pushing the button "Play" again and same test track is starting to play.

Question: do the measured SPL levels for a frequency beetwen 15-30Hz will be the same (90dB) on amplifier A (heavyweight) and amplifier B (lightweight)?

But what's even more interesting - do the audible bass will be perceived as the same from amplifier A and amplifier B?

Best regards,

Zilvinas

https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1" rel="nofollow - https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

Best Regards,

I do already have an UMIK-1 :)

Also is true that measurements will be on 20Hz-20kHz region but let's not to look what is happening on overall scale of things when measuring and concentrate just in 15-30Hz region. Will the bass differs even in slightest proportion from A and B amplifiers in 15-30Hz region?

If not, then perhaps all the existing amplifiers sounding the same and only difference between them is wattage? :)

Just to clear this thing here.

You can not measure impedance with a multimeter. What you are measuring is the voice coil resistance. That is not same thing as impedance. 4.5 ohm is the correct resistance value for 6 ohm impedance speaker.

Didn't know that, thanks.

A lot of modern Class D Amplifiers offer lower THD than older amplifiers. A large amount of Total Harmonic Distortion can give the user the perception that the Bass sounds “Heavier” when in fact, it is the high degree of THD coming into play. Such things can be measured using Sinusoidal Waves through the amplifier. I've conducted such tests years ago using hardware signal processors.

Loudspeakers that offer a greater amount of THD are favored more by many than loudspeakers that sounds accurate ( very low THD) when it comes to bass. It is precisely the reason why, many purposely drive their amplifiers into clip when less THD is involved. They are trying to achieve a certain type of tone.

Sound is subjective. At the end of the day, what sounds good to the user overrides everything. 30 Hz – 15 Hz is no big deal for any Professional Amplifier. However, how much THD is present from 30 Hz – 15 Hz, will have the user sway to what he/she feels sounds best.

Best Regards,  

Things are getting clearer

Seems that this question is similar into "transistor vs tube" one - measurements showing that tube amps has much more distortion versus transistor but despite that people loves them anyway and....i one of them :)

What's about energy consumption between those classes for the same output?

If i'd choose a class D 1U size device, should i worry about noise of these small fans?

When all things are considered equal, yes! Class D Amplifiers offers less heat than Class A, A/B, B, G and, H amplifiers.

zilinux wrote: What's about energy consumption between those classes for the same output?

Idle current is lower with Class D amplifiers. However, power consumption (taking idle current out of the equation) offers no advantage over older amplifiers. The above is based on watts vs current at the given resistive load.

zilinux wrote: If i'd choose a class D 1U size device, should i worry about noise of these small fans?

Too much fan noise for Home Audio or shall I say, Audiophile standards.

Best Regards,

There are plenty off the shelf HT oriented subs happily going into teens and some into single digits.

When you go DIY sky is the limit and single digit extension is not a problem.

Your horns were designed for different frequencies reproduction so they excel in different range, that is all.

I was in similar situation and chosen Crown XLI 3500 x2 for my 4x 18" BMS drivers.

I also considered Pro line but got discouraged by their crap protection circus frying drivers as I will not have any limiters in my system.

Not impressed because those are cheap? ;)

On more serious note, have you had either in your system? What were you not impressed with exactly?

Where those shine is quiet operation and I need that as they will be for foreseeable future in the same room as the listening position.

Once and if I can move the rack to projection booth I plan to swap them for LP clones do something like FP 22k etc.

Hey, i did have a good deal and decided to buy a PKN XE5002 amp but Elliot Thompson was right - at least this particular model (have read that some of other manufacturers 1U units are even louder than this one) operating too loud for audiophile listening scenario. Now i'm thinking about to replace those noisy fans with silent Noctua ones but...Noctua fans are just 1/3 of the performance compared to original ones... but do hope they will be suficient to cool down the amp because i do listen on really low levels of volume.

And other than fan noise how do you like them?

I did not want to go with class-D as it runs out of juice quite quickly and rarely is capable to sustain long bass notes. Mostly because of SMPS AFAIK and it ultra quick saturation times and drop to 50% of rated power.

That is the reason I wanted to go with LPSU with class AB preferably.

Yes  cheap and nasty. Poor build quality and I don't think they sound great. They can't hold a sustained bass note. 

On more serious note, have you had either in your system? What were you not impressed with exactly?

Yes my friend had some. I've used his. As said poorly built don't sound great. He's got rid of his thankfully he upgraded to FFA. 

Where those shine is quiet operation and I need that as they will be for foreseeable future in the same room as the listening position. Once and if I can move the rack to projection booth I plan to swap them for LP clones do something like FP 22k etc.

No worries. Different priorities.

Quality I have covered with my stereo system :)

For subs I just need brute force and reasonable sound quality for the money.

Right now i cannot answer because amp comes to me week or so ago and few things needs to be done before i can connect it to subwoofers.

Modern-day Class D Amplifiers do not offer those issues as Class D Amplifiers made 20 years ago.

Best Regards,  

That is now what I read.