Print Page | Close Window

Hd15 - my versioin

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: HD 15 horn
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the HD 15 horn
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1213
Printed Date: 20 September 2019 at 5:20pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Hd15 - my versioin
Posted By: Rog
Subject: Hd15 - my versioin
Date Posted: 11 January 2005 at 12:27am
bass horn hd 15
http://photofile.ru/default/do.php?id=5082059#sm


________________________
may horns plans
http://www.tda-audio.photofile.ru/



Replies:
Posted By: freddyi
Date Posted: 12 January 2005 at 5:04am
awesome folded horn work and very nice tube amplifier  - assume push-pull pentode (?)

lots of plans   - ladies in ads look nice too

What is the blue folded horn?

Is your HD 15 the brown-colored wood horn?

(got any Ivan Kozlovsky recordings for the rear-load hifi horn?)

Heres plans for 18" Karlson-type by Cetec-Gauss

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ebuddhaboy2/GK - http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/GK

Heres what I'm listening to tonight:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ebuddhaboy2/18T.jpg - http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/18T.jpg

the slotted waveguide is very good sounding.

Heres another K-coupler built by a friend:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ebuddhaboy2/HAX2 - http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/HAX2

Best wishes from US
Freddy




Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 4:25am



my version HD-15 SMOLL



plans



Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 4:44am
plans


Posted By: ricky
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 3:30pm
Nice job.. what woofer do you use?
 


Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 4:33pm
Visaton BGS-40 (right?). Awefully nice measurement software you have there. Any indiactions of performance in a stack?


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 4:37pm
woofer-
Boke-Audio (china) 140$. model LB1570-100-220

http://www.bokeaudio.com/speaker/lb.htm

http://www.bokeaudio.com/speaker/andi/LB1570-100-220.gif

LB1570-100-220
Model: LB1570-100-220
Nominal Diameter: 380mm, 15inch
Retd Impedance: 8 ohms
Power Capacity: 600 watts
Sensitivity(1w/1m): 982dB
Frequency Range: 30-1500Hz
Voice Coil Diameter: 100mm, 4inch
Magnetic Assembly Weight: 3.4Kg
Magnet Diameter: 22012725mm
Product Net Weight: 11.8Kg


Resonance Frequency: Fs 30.3Hz
DC resistance: Re 5.5 ohms
Mechanical factor: Qms 4.54
Electrical facto: Qes 0.27
Total factor: Qts 0.26
BL Factor:
BL 22.4 N/A
Vas 211.1 L
Rp 86.7 ohms
Lp 105.6 mH
Cp 366.5 ?F
Le 1.7 mH
Mms 129.2 gr


Posted By: ricky
Date Posted: 05 April 2005 at 5:46pm
How does the it sounds? Do I smel alot of kick? Have you tested and with other drivers?
 


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 12:38am
>>>How does the it sounds?<<<
good SOUND.

>>> Have you tested and with other drivers?<<<
yes Celestion

http://professional.celestion.com/pro/pro_components/truvox/ detail.asp?ID=15

- vere bad

>>>you from were did you start to desing a box like this, what program did you use?<<<

No soft use.

>>>did you measure and the SPL?<<<

Is not present but shall soon try




Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 9:33am
Could work even better than the original HD15 because of more symmetrical loading of the speaker.


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 12:00pm
There is no area of a mouth less


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 12:07pm
Culem - please here I spread it for not sale download (I in fact from Russia)

LspCad 5.25 pro
http://www.igolkin.com//soft/Tda-audio/upload/LSPcad-Pro5.25.rar - http://www.igolkin.com//soft/Tda-audio/upload/LSPcad-Pro5.25 .rar
   JustMls plugin

http://www.igolkin.com//soft/Tda-audio/upload/justmls.rar - http://www.igolkin.com//soft/Tda-audio/upload/justmls.rar


Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 3:52pm

Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

There is no area of a mouth less

I don't understand.



Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 12 April 2005 at 8:28pm
small mouth


Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 17 April 2005 at 2:40pm

Will all the drivers recommended for the regular HD15 work in this box?

Stu



-------------
All you need to know is:
Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output

My acts:
www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience
www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches


Posted By: ricky
Date Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:56am

How exactly did you take the frequency response plot of your design with the justMLS? I am trying to do the same, for my first time and I need your advice. What adjustments do I have to make to the program in order to see the frequency respons?



Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 22 April 2005 at 4:25am

Simple design,I myself considered something similar with flat section panels saving much construction time.

Cheers



Posted By: davey t
Date Posted: 23 April 2005 at 7:41am

I like it.

Isn't this the 15" Turbosound folded horn design? If not, its very simmilar. Or did you just reduce the dimentions from the speakerstore 18" version?

The horn is actually a little longer than the HD15, and the extra length means it'l be more stable for stacking porn horns/mt122's on top. Sound wise it'l be the same as a hd15 i recon, maybe a tiny bit lower?

What do people think about using the SN15b in this type of bin. I think it would work pretty well. Be cheap and light too. You could build 12 of them for around 1500! 3 t.amp2400's to power and your snorted.

hmm........

 



Posted By: jeth
Date Posted: 24 April 2005 at 6:22am
Tda..any chance you could tell us the correct
measurement for the back corner of rear
chamber...currently marked (20) but this is surely not
the correct millimetre measurement.
I have some free time right now and wanted to build
a box up, and maybe one standard HD15 to
compare...
Be grateful if you can help me here! Thanks...


Posted By: jeth
Date Posted: 24 April 2005 at 6:33am
TDA..just been checking out the plans again and it
seems Davey-T is correct..the design seems to have
been scaled from the 18 design also on your site, in
all dimensions except the width of the cab.
Following this rule I got a measurement of
115.5mm for the rear chamber corner..does this
seem right? Thanks...


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 24 April 2005 at 12:11pm
>>>currently marked (20) but this is surely not
the correct millimetre measurement<<<

(20) - (00) millimetre - depends on size(dimensions) of the framework of the driver (15").


Posted By: jeth
Date Posted: 24 April 2005 at 12:46pm
TDA..thanks for your reply..before I read it I just drew
out the design on a panel and experimented. With
such a small distance between where the baffle
meets the back panel and the corner of the box it
seems unlikely that most drivers will fit..though I
noted in the photos shot through the handle cutouts
that you seem to have sunk the driver into the panel
to gain space..either that or it's mounted from the
horn side..but I can't imagine the back is removable.
I guessed the end panel behind the driver is made
removable.
So if this dimension is flexible..would it be suitable
to use something between the 20mm and the
115mm i calculated from scaling down the 18 by the
common factor i found. This would give me space
for my driver...but would it throw out the acoustics to
change the horn geometry so much?
i'm still learning so it's good to know these things if
possible..Thanks again TDA..      


Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 30 July 2005 at 3:50pm
I've been looking at some alternative ways of building horn loaded 15"s partially to try to teach myself the theory on how they work.

Looking back at this design and doing some simulation of it, I'm wondering if this is even more like a bandpass horn than the HD15.  It has a front chamber almost as big as the rear and the simulated response certainly looks more like a bandpass than a horn. Seems impossible to iron out the dip in the middle of the response without drastically reducing the front chamber and thus loosing low extension.

Thoughts anyone, TDA?


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 10:21pm
Reducing the forward chamber we shall reduce recession on higher frequencies. The forward chamber is the filter with recession 6


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 5:21am
fineshed constructhion


http://www.igolkin.com/soft/Tda-audio/images/steck-fas.jpg



Posted By: PoteirosCorp
Date Posted: 11 September 2005 at 5:29am
Hi TDA, I download the LspCAD program; I've done some simulations with reflex boxes, and I am curious about how you simulate this with the Lspcad, (how you put the port??)

Cheers


Posted By: MrZuarth
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 2:43pm

Sorry, I DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISHMAN

Bueno queria comentar, que posibilidad hay de hacer este diseo del HD-215, pero para bocinas de 18", con bocinas Beyma Mod.18G50.

Yo tengo un bafle similar a este, pero veo que tengo que hacer varias adaptaciones... y correciones... pero diganme... como ven ustedes esta posibilidad de hacer una replica del HD-215, pero para bocinas de 18"

Deberas, alguien me puede decir , como anexar IMAGENES



Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 11 November 2005 at 4:16pm
Babelfish translation

Good queria for commenting, that possibility has to make this design of the HD-215, but for 18"horns, with horns Beyma Mod.18G50. I have a speaker similar to this, but I see that I must make several adaptations... and correciones... but diganme... as you see this possibility of doing one talk back of the HD-215, but for horns of 18" Deberas, somebody can say to me, like annexing IMAGENES


-------------
general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research
http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research

Ex Nexus_3


Posted By: PoteirosCorp
Date Posted: 17 December 2005 at 8:22pm
Let me answer him in spanish.

Que tal, el HD15 fue concebido para el mid-bass, asi que no hay una ventaja en constrirlo con componentes de 18". Hay unos modelos de bafles similares, como el ES18 BPH de Staiper, tiene casi el mismo principio de Bandpass horn al igual que el HD15. Ese bafle tiene un f3 de 54hz.

Dale al buscador con ese nombre que te di y encontraras informacion. Y otra cosa, trata de darle al ingles porque aqui se maneja este idioma, hay gente de muchas naciones diferentes (holandeses, rusos, rumanos, italianos, ingleses mexicanos, etc...) y todos le damos al ingles aca

Saludos

PD. te voy a agregar a mi hotmail


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 05 April 2006 at 9:31pm

any one want to work out the horn resp inputs for her then? so we can alll see wot drivers will work.

some one must be able to sim her up ....



-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: jethdub
Date Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:57pm
TDA.. with some time passed since you first posted this design, I was wondering if you have anything to report on its performance? I'm particularly interested in the high end response, how high can you play these boxes? Thanks, Jeth


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 30 May 2006 at 9:56pm
i do like the possibilities of suicide mdf rigs made up out of these with some kappa 15lf or similar.....

-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: 23kwsound
Date Posted: 24 April 2007 at 9:59am
Hi are demensions on those plans right cause the baffle only sits 20mm from back is that right


Posted By: djslacka
Date Posted: 25 June 2009 at 4:37pm
has anyone built one of these? they look good to me!


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 9:40am

there is a guy local to me with 4 of these sn15b loaded.

I liked em!!!



-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: djslacka
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 3:58pm
kl, how was he using them, as a kick bass bin? they could be a good hd alternative


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 10:22am
yeah well as a kick sometimes a bass bin at others

-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: guillaume03
Date Posted: 06 October 2010 at 10:04pm
hi , i built 4 of your hd 15, and 2 in double version, here's some pics!
they sound very loud! (some are loaded with eminence kappa 15 lf, and some with jbl E 140)

the simple version :






the double version (not painted at all for the moment)






Posted By: tel_peh
Date Posted: 06 December 2010 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

fineshed constructhion


http://www.igolkin.com/soft/Tda-audio/images/steck-fas.jpg


hi,

can any one tell me what are these tops??

thanks




Posted By: Joyrider77
Date Posted: 25 January 2011 at 12:14pm
Do have have the plan for those midtops ?

-------------
'' Johann Wolfgang von Goethe '' All intelligent thoughts have already been thought; what is necessary is only to try to think them again http://www.truesoundhire.co.uk - .


Posted By: Joyrider77
Date Posted: 25 January 2011 at 12:16pm
and what is the speaker the the right of that stack ?

-------------
'' Johann Wolfgang von Goethe '' All intelligent thoughts have already been thought; what is necessary is only to try to think them again http://www.truesoundhire.co.uk - .


Posted By: MadHandz
Date Posted: 25 February 2012 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by guillaume03 guillaume03 wrote:

hi , i built 4 of your hd 15, and 2 in double version, here's some pics!
they sound very loud! (some are loaded with eminence kappa 15 lf, and some with jbl E 140)

the simple version :






the double version (not painted at all for the moment)







Hi there guillaume03, do you by any chance have the designs for these cabs? with all correct measurements, like the looks of these cabs and been told there good kick cabs. 

If anybody has any similar 15" kick or sub designs please let me know? 

Many thanks in advance, Daz


Posted By: Venny
Date Posted: 18 March 2013 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by guillaume03 guillaume03 wrote:

hi , i built 4 of your hd 15, and 2 in double version, here's some pics!
they sound very loud! (some are loaded with eminence kappa 15 lf, and some with jbl E 140)

the simple version :






the double version (not painted at all for the moment)





Image links are broken, Any chance of a few pics of the doubles you built please?

Regards, Joe.



-------------
Predominant Culture Sound System - Roots and Culture



Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 May 2013 at 8:30pm
these do look good and easy to build (a must with my woodworkin skills) 

Has anyone compared the plots? im looking to build a few simple kick bins and this looks nice!


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 1:13pm
Did anyone draw this up for particular driver & perform HR sim ?

Seems there is a difference in opinion, on cab response.





http://www.freespeakerplans.com/forum/44-roots-culture/20372-15-bph-kick-for-scoops" rel="nofollow - http://www.freespeakerplans.com/forum/44-roots-culture/20372-15-bph-kick-for-scoops

Originally posted by bee bee wrote:


the dip at 125hz is a massive dip in terms of a kick cab, this area is were you need the kick to perform. regardless of what the rta says, this cab wont be able to play over 150hz. I would rather a peak at 125hz and eq out than have to add eq. The other down side is it only plays down to 60hz, making it not usable as a part of a small system. The other down side is this design is not very loud spl wise, making it very hard for this design to keep up with an 18" scoop..... play around with it in horn resp lev, at this point I would not even take this design to proto type stage build..... I no 4db down at 125hz don't seem to bad but its 8db down at 200hz on the rta also when simming in horn resp sim at 4pi in stacks of 4, this will give a better idea of how it will perform in a mono stack with scoops....



-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 5:32pm
a plott tells only one half of the story, a plott can look good but, wont give us any indication in to tonality of the speaker. BHP cabs suffer from sounding honky if taken over x freq, but the plott can indicate a smooth response. Ive built, designed and listened to so many bhp designs in my quest to understand how and why they work, and more importantly how only a very few companies have managed to get there bhp designs to play higher....
 
 


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 5:37pm
below lev is a plott I took yesterday, mic on the floor 5m infront of stack, 2 plots were taken at the same time. Sound card was calibrated, mic used was an ecm8000 with measurement files for mic calibrated.
 
apart from the obvious one, One of the measurements had an internal filter turned on in my rta software (oops) can you tell what plott is what, and why both plots look different, yet the same.....
 
should of said source material for this plott was a deep house tune (cd) and was a snap shot at x point in the song


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

a plott tells only one half of the story, a plott can look good but, wont give us any indication in to tonality of the speaker.


Think what's needed here, first and foremost, is the HR input data & plot for this cab.

Will then be possible for the community, to objectively assess this cab, and compare with HD15, with a number of drivers.

That will be guide of which drivers (if any) will be optimum, dependent on individual requirement.

However, should be noted a number of people have already built/heard this cab, and liked the sound.

Originally posted by Mark James Mark James wrote:

there is a guy local to me with 4 of these sn15b loaded.

I liked em!!!




-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:11pm
Yes havnt seen them in a while but nice for the money :-)
im sure a comunity bph is a good idea

-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Mark James Mark James wrote:


im sure a comunity bph is a good idea


Which is what I'm proposing with this

http://www.freespeakerplans.com/forum/44-roots-culture/20372-15-bph-kick-for-scoops" rel="nofollow - http://www.freespeakerplans.com/forum/44-roots-culture/20372-15-bph-kick-for-scoops


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:32pm
I like the idea would work with flh subs too

-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Mark James Mark James wrote:

I like the idea would work with flh subs too


Also "plenty" of drivers that would work, from cheap (ferrite) to very expensive (Neo) range.


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 6:54pm
defo why not, the difference in the plott I posted is.... nothing one has just had smoothing added, this is what has been done to the plott u posted lev, going back to the phone call with you, I built the design you posted a few years back from mdf, and its on par with a hd15, but not an improvement on the hd15.....
 
graphs even an rta one can be incorrect, the second point about the graph I posted is, looking at the graph im well down in the 150hz to 10k hz compared to the bass, this was not so, as mic placement has a massive effect on any reading taken.... ok its a plott of a complete system, but still highlights how a plott can look very different by adding smoothing and placement of mic.


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:


but still highlights how a plott can look very different by adding smoothing and placement of mic.


Yep plot doesn't tell full story, but it is a necessary start.

Take a look at this thread, HD15 Sims thread,

http://forum.speakerplans.com/hd15-driver-sims_topic2617.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/hd15-driver-sims_topic2617.html

At least a 100 different driver plots of the HD15 cab, from some very knowledgeable  people, who often use HR, to design BPH hybrids.

Need HR plot of TDA-15, to even start comparing it with HD15 Bee, this can't be done on one person's opinion, or findings.






-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:39pm
If you want i can fully draw it out in sketchup with every panel being a different part, and sim it in hornresp. Takes me roughly half an hour to do it accurate. Will be by tomorrow evening, first I've got some tops to paintTongue

-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 29 July 2013 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:

If you want i can fully draw it out in sketchup with every panel being a different part, and sim it in hornresp. Takes me roughly half an hour to do it accurate. Will be by tomorrow evening, first I've got some tops to paintTongue


Clap


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 9:54am
Paint does not arrive for two hours, or at least that's the courier's e.t.a.

So first up the raw panels with measurements. The angle of the baffle was a little ill-defined so i chose 32 degrees, slightly lower than it looks like in the plans. This can be altered easyli though.
http://s195.photobucket.com/user/teunvanderveeken/media/1_zps91235f53.png.html" rel="nofollow">

The measurements of the horn path and chamber volumes, bruto=gross.
http://s195.photobucket.com/user/teunvanderveeken/media/2_zps83996d82.png.html" rel="nofollow">

What it COULD look like
http://s195.photobucket.com/user/teunvanderveeken/media/3_zps291960bc.png.html" rel="nofollow">

And finally the sim. So i deducted roughly 5Lt for the rear mounted driver, and added 3Lt to the front chamber due to the volume inside the cone. So at first as a raw sim it doesn't look half bad, but surely not the 60Hz shown in TDA's measurement. 
http://s195.photobucket.com/user/teunvanderveeken/media/4_zps4d283db4.png.html" rel="nofollow">
Sim made in 2pi.s.r. which is 1 cab placed on the floor, or 2 cabs placed on top of subs.

The driver used for the sim is the RCF L15S800, which is quite a hard hitter (4''VC, Stiff suspension and very stiff cone, strong motor) when placed in BPH's that gives a really, really punchy sound. Other drivers with softer suspension that sound more hifi may be more suited for Reggae like kick style i guess Lev prefers? Any driver suggestions?


Also, my BPH's i built a year ago are pretty much the same layout etc, only 400mm internal height and slightly deeper, and they go nowhere near 60Hz flat, more like 80Hz flat which is what these seem to do as well. Note; My BPH's measure the same as my sim
They are most outer left cabs on top of the subs in the centrestack in the pic below.
http://s195.photobucket.com/user/teunvanderveeken/media/Subwoofer%20vergelijkingsdag%2012%20mei/SubTestHarderwijk12mei13-43_zpse35ceeff.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Edit: replaced the sim screenshot with the proper one.


-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 10:26am
Awsome, good job Teun!

Very nice to see the pic with the measurements, makes it a lot clearer for me how to get HR input data of existing cabs or drawings.


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 10:26am
very nice cad work there Thumbs Up

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 10:27am
so the sim reflects the rta hear toEmbarrassed, but the hr plott matches my findings done a few years back....

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 10:46am
Oops, i f**** upLOL. I edited my post, i had 23.4cm before for the last section, which should be 32.4 sorry, my bad.

-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by all bass all bass wrote:

Awsome, good job Teun!

Very nice to see the pic with the measurements, makes it a lot clearer for me how to get HR input data of existing cabs or drawings.


+1


Fantastic work Teunos, you've given the project life again.. StarStarStarClapClap


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:


The driver used for the sim is the RCF L15S800, which is quite a hard hitter (4''VC, Stiff suspension and very stiff cone, strong motor) when placed in BPH's that gives a really, really punchy sound. Other drivers with softer suspension that sound more hifi may be more suited for Reggae like kick style i guess Lev prefers? Any driver suggestions?







-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 8:11pm
So primarily, what is the design goal as far as FR goes? are we aiming for 60Hz, which is never really gonna work properly in an HD15~ish size and 15'' driver, or are we going for maximum flat G.D. from 80Hz upward? Kicky Punchy sound is no problem but usually brings up group delay very high if required to go down low, which sacrifices sound quality. So a specific list of design goald may aid improvement of the design

-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:

So primarily, what is the design goal as far as FR goes? are we aiming for 60Hz, which is never really gonna work properly in an HD15~ish size and 15'' driver, or are we going for maximum flat G.D. from 80Hz upward? Kicky Punchy sound is no problem but usually brings up group delay very high if required to go down low, which sacrifices sound quality. So a specific list of design goald may aid improvement of the design


TBH, Have simmed approx 10x-15x drivers in past couple of hours, a number of units give very acceptable response downto 65hz.

Seems almost all of the PD high BL favourites drivers produce peaky sim, where as others like "some" Fane/B&C drivers, with "warm" BL/Qes/Vas, are naturally smoother.

May possibly be worthwhile, for someone to knock this cab together, & taking few RTA measurements with number of drivers.




-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 9:17pm
How are you simulating these sort of boxes then? What sort of data are you using?

For several times I've found HR to be surprisingly accurate when I've had the opportunity to measure designs in real world 2pi with RTA. This happens when I've used input data like I (and Teunos as he uses similar approach) do. For example HR data provided by Rog for most of his designs is quite inaccurate / vague.

edit: should read posts completely. You seem to use Teunos'es data. Embarrassed


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 30 July 2013 at 10:53pm
input date looks spot on. I would play with the design a bit more, and get this box to play lower, and try to smooth out the dip in the response, and lower the peak at 250hz, there is a lot of wasted energy in hitting 250hz as its virtually impossible with out a phase bung type of device to get a bhp cab to play that high with out sounding honky....

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 12:31am
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

input date looks spot on. I would play with the design a bit more, and get this box to play lower, and try to smooth out the dip in the response,



Response wholly depends on the driver you sim, pay close attention to driver BL, qes, qts, Vas.Wink

Clue for Bee:High BL drivers tend to be Peaky, mid BL drivers with slightly larger Qes/Vas tend towards flatter response.

Maybe that's why I'm happy with design as is, as I've found 2x optimum drivers. Embarrassed



-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 8:50am
Which drivers may that be? perhaps the design can be fine tuned around these drivers to remove last rinkles etc.
Have gotten best results with drivers that have specs around
vas~200
qms~10
fs in mid thirties
Eighteensound 15lw1500 seems perfect for the job.

driver specs like this automatically suggest lowish BL, which also truly is the case, which means cone control will be lower and driver excursion higher for input signal. So if driver with above spec is chosen, it must have proper (true (Hvc-Hg)/2) Xmax of around 6-7mm. Not that hard but just a thing to keep in mind.

Also, have gotten even better results with 90% of simmed drivers by slightly decreasing rear chamber volume. This can be done by angling the baffle slightly less steep, around 27 degrees and increasing the angle of the first horn panel thus increasing S3 and the overall efficiency without completely retuning cab

Have taken a quick look at displacement of driver and HPF settings. This is directly dictated by the length of the horn and not necessarily the chamber volumes. Unfortunately filter wizard is not available when simming horns, but Lower cutoff seems to be at a max Low point of around 75Hz.

@Bee, the 250Hz peak will always be there because the mouth area of a single unit is unsufficiently large. When 2 or 4 units are coupled things become much better. Also the use of a driver with above like specs helps.
Remember however, simming single kicks should be done in 4 pi.s.r. I never use single BPH kick, waste of space. It's only interesting when 2 or more units are used. For smaller gigs i use single sub with 15'' BR as kick, works much better and allows for smaller tops.

Bigger gigs are either 2 subs and 2 kick and suiting tops (per side), or 4 of each per side, which is plain violent


-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: all bass
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 8:51am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by bee bee wrote:


input date looks spot on. I would play with the design a bit more, and get this box to play lower, and try to smooth out the dip in the response,



Response wholly depends on the driver you sim, pay close attention to driver BL, qes, qts, Vas.Wink

Clue for Bee:High BL drivers tend to be Peaky, mid BL drivers with slightly larger Qes/Vas tend towards flatter response.

Maybe that's why I'm happy with design as is, as I've found 2x optimum drivers. Embarrassed



Would you care to share these findings with the world Levy...


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 10:03am
teunos spot on m8t, could not agree more with you.
not sure why one would need to spend hours trying to find the right driver, stick with your driver of choice and change box to suit driver.  Driver I was looking at was the one you wanted in orig post...
 
This box can be made to sound a lot better. a small adjustment to rear chamber as pointed out plus a small adjustment to front chamber and a bit of length on the horn....
 
Lev the peak you talk about in some situations is not a bad thing, one with small eq it can be smoothed out, also for some types of music a small peak helps in getting the desired sound....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by all bass all bass wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:




Response wholly depends on the driver you sim, pay close attention to driver BL, qes, qts, Vas.Wink

Clue for Bee:High BL drivers tend to be Peaky, mid BL drivers with slightly larger Qes/Vas tend towards flatter response.

Maybe that's why I'm happy with design as is, as I've found 2x optimum drivers. Embarrassed



Would you care to share these findings with the world Levy...







-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:

Which drivers may that be? perhaps the design can be fine tuned around these drivers to remove last rinkles etc.
Have gotten best results with drivers that have specs around
vas~200
qms~10
fs in mid thirties
Eighteensound 15lw1500 seems perfect for the job.

driver specs like this automatically suggest lowish BL, which also truly is the case, which means cone control will be lower and driver excursion higher for input signal. So if driver with above spec is chosen, it must have proper (true (Hvc-Hg)/2) Xmax of around 6-7mm. Not that hard but just a thing to keep in mind.

Also, have gotten even better results with 90% of simmed drivers by slightly decreasing rear chamber volume. This can be done by angling the baffle slightly less steep, around 27 degrees and increasing the angle of the first horn panel thus increasing S3 and the overall efficiency without completely retuning cab

Have taken a quick look at displacement of driver and HPF settings. This is directly dictated by the length of the horn and not necessarily the chamber volumes. Unfortunately filter wizard is not available when simming horns, but Lower cutoff seems to be at a max Low point of around 75Hz.



Clap


EDIT: Seems lengthening horn might compromise output above 180hz ?




-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:15pm
If we increase depth of cab to 700mm, altering panels that dictate chamber size/throat also, thereby extending horn length, by approx 50mm, would addition in horn length be quantifiable ?
yes.
 
 
Is it worth widening cab to the 478mm of http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=hd15&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ahd15" rel="nofollow - , to ensure chassis clearance for all 15" drivers?
 
let the best volume for the rear and front chamber dictate the width of the box.
 
Also thinking driver loading hatch should be large enough to allow easy access to each bolt for driver mounting.
 
as long as the driver fits through the access panel it big enough. don't worry too much about ease of loading, once loaded the drivers will only come out if you blow them
 
The other thing is its ok modding a design but you still need to no how this design works..... a clue into how, is the correlation between the front and rear chamber.....Wink
 
 


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:23pm
why are you worried about the output above 180hz, it wont play much higher with out honking..... its a trait of the bhp design. you will get a 12" bhp up past 250hz with out honking...

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:24pm
Sorry, edited my post, while you were writing yours.

Would be interesting comparing the graph/input data/driver you used, when you stated  output was peaky, as the sim I did with Fane Sov Pro 15-500, and couple of other drivers, didn't have huge dip at 125hz.

There's plenty of 18" BPH out there, that will do massive 50-60hz, but that's not what I'm after. As it's stretch getting anything above 150hz out of them.

I'll settle for 15" BPH cab, that'll do strong 180hz, even if shorter horn dictates HPF=75hz@24db rolloff, to withstand 500W.





-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:36pm
ok im going to be nice to you, and offer a big bit of help, run your sim but sim a stack of 6, you will see that the plot cuts off on your design at around 175hz, this will be were your box in single will start to sound honky. This info was found out by me after simming over 20 bhp designs and comparing rta plots to the hr sim.... the cabs I tested were a mixture of 18" 15" and 2 21" designs.
 
What your wanting is what knet (ken) wanted, I spent 2 years looking at every aspect of the bhp design to get it perfect for kens needs. so it can be done.... The bhp's I built for Boots hi-fi were a very slight modification to kens, which give a bit more spl in the 125hz region, but don't play as low 5hz less and don't play as high 5hz less.....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

ok im going to be nice to you, and offer a big bit of help, run your sim but sim a stack of 6, you will see that the plot cuts off on your design at around 175hz, this will be were your box in single will start to sound honky. This info was found out by me after simming over 20 bhp designs and comparing rta plots to the hr sim.... the cabs I tested were a mixture of 18" 15" and 2 21" designs.
 
What your wanting is what knet (ken) wanted, I then spent 2 years looking at every aspect of the bhp design. so it can be done....


Very gracious of you sir. Clap

Which driver did you sim with, as I need to reproduce your findings, before trying other drivers.


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 6:46pm

driver choice makes no difference to were the honky ness starts, its a negative in the bhp design.....

run the sim and it will say 175hz 180hz max.... im 100% sure with out even re simming it....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 7:06pm
Conclusion, usable range for the cab as it stands without modifications is 75-180 Max bandwidth. Is this satisfactory? Will try the sim with the Fane Lev.
500W won't be a problem with either the RCF i started with or the B&C which was my best candidate. I try them with 1000W and see what excursion does. Due to load on the cone of the horn it stays under 6-7mm with most woofers.


-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

driver choice makes no difference to were the honky ness starts, its a negative in the bhp design.....

run the sim and it will say 175hz 180hz max.... im 100% sure with out even re simming it....


Ignoring HR warnings about inaccuracy, plot for Fane Sov Pro 15-500,
Assumming 4PI plot, before selecting Multiple speakers ?






One of the experts can explain which plot is relevant to Bee's instruction.

EDIT:Plots obtained with Linux MiNT 15 x64, running hornresp on Win 7 x32 in Virtual Box VM.. Embarrassed


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 8:42pm
Your second plott would be the more true to life plott and real life operating band.

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 8:45pm
So of you now take the high cut off point and use this as a cut off point for a single, that will give you a more true to life plott

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

So of you now take the high cut off point and use this as a cut off point for a single, that will give you a more true to life plott


Nice one point, mate.. Clap

Will also try LPF=200, seeing as according to sim, should be @ approx only -1.5db off,





-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 31 July 2013 at 11:20pm
Lev the info I have given is guide, only building one can confirm how high the usable range will be, your sim is about 4db down on the ones I built and with a bit more tweaking yours will play lower.

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 04 August 2013 at 10:45pm
just simmed your version lev and overlayed a mk 2 re-design.  This is the best I could come up with with out a total re-design.....
http://s280.photobucket.com/user/djbenwells/media/beemk2_zps4b4e2e2d.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
 
light gray lev version
dark gray my rework....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 12:29am
Interesting.

Is that sim based on 1PI or 2PI?

Was assuming (maybe incorrectly), modeling 6x cabs above subs, would be 2PI, 3S 2P

Did you also sim with different driver?

Difficult to tell without HR input data.


-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 2:55am
Nope 4pi and 3x2

-------------
If you want people to feel the bass then a reflex design is probably best as you get the most air movement per decibel from those.      errrrr yes wtf?


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 8:29am
Same driver info on both sims, 6 cabs 2 pi on both sims...

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: Teunos
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 9:25am
So what changes did you make, and does it affect overall volume? think it's about time to make the slight alterations to the original and implement them in the sketchup model.

Also time to consider practicalities. When i did my BPH's, i made all the internal panels 400mm long, so that the waste from  sheet of 8x4 (1220*2440 or 125x250 whatever floats your boat) would be minimal. You cab is internal height 42,4 which does not allow 3 panels alongisde each other.

And that post has to be 2 pi, as  4pi would result in roughly 105db.


-------------
Best regards,
Teun.

,,Diamonds are forever''


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 9:52am
http://s280.photobucket.com/user/djbenwells/media/beemk2b_zps72053956.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
light gray original lev rework
dark gray bees rework of the rework
 
same driver for both designs.
cabinet size is the same for both versions.....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 10:12am
http://s280.photobucket.com/user/djbenwells/media/beemk2c_zpsf55294b2.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
 
fane sovereign 15-500
light gray original lev rework  4pi stack of 6
dark gray bees rework of the rework 4pi stack of 6
 
same driver for both designs, based on levs driver choice.
cabinet size is the same for both versions.....
 
good from  70hz to 200hz


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 10:23am
http://s280.photobucket.com/user/djbenwells/media/beemk2vshd15_zps64e84e41.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">
 
fane sovereign 15-500
light gray hd15  4pi stack of 6
dark gray bees rework of the rework 4pi stack of 6
 
same driver for both designs, based on levs driver choice.
cabinet size is the same for both versions.....
 
good from  70hz to 200hz


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:

So what changes did you make, and does it affect overall volume? think it's about time to make the slight alterations to the original and implement them in the sketchup model.


Is it possible to slightly improve on low end, without comprising the 180-200hz upper response?

I guess if cab is usable from 60hz upwards @ 500W-650W, would be more usable than HD15 for some SP'ers.

For me, the upper end is most important.

Originally posted by Teunos Teunos wrote:


Also time to consider practicalities. When i did my BPH's, i made all the internal panels 400mm long, so that the waste from  sheet of 8x4 (1220*2440 or 125x250 whatever floats your boat) would be minimal. You cab is internal height 42,4 which does not allow 3 panels alongisde each other.


Would 400mm internal allow following drivers?

Fane Sov Pro 15-500


PD158


B&C 15PLB76


18sound 15W930





-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 12:55pm
all drivers you listed will fit....

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 12:56pm
yes you could get this cab to play lower, without loosing the top end.... but the plan would be changed and be more like the bsw-k115 Wink.....

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 12:59pm
with the changes I made to the original sim, this design all ready pisses all over the hd15, better top end, low end is the same as a hd15.....
 
the last plot I posted was an a/b with the hd15....


-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 2:16pm
if you turn this into a hybrid ported bhp, it will do 50hz flat in a stack of 6....

-------------
https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

...For me, the upper end is most important...


Just to throw my 2p into the mix, I think Lev has hit the nail on the head. There's loads of posts on SP trying to get the HD15 (or anything similar) to actually be playable and listenable at the 200Hz range so it will meet up with more MF horns.


-------------
Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 05 August 2013 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by bee bee wrote:

if you turn this into a hybrid ported bhp, it will do 50hz flat in a stack of 6....


Maybe another project could be porting HD15 horn.

"Personally" I don't need that..

I'll always be using them above scoops, so strong 70hz is good for me.

Originally posted by djeddie djeddie wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

...For me, the upper end is most important...


Just to throw my 2p into the mix, I think Lev has hit the nail on the head. There's loads of posts on SP trying to get the HD15 (or anything similar) to actually be playable and listenable at the 200Hz range so it will meet up with more MF horns.


I hear you.

"IMHO", is easy getting the 40hz-100Hz right, difficult bit is the 70Hz - 200hz efficiently.

If possible to get the above range, fairly flat, from single driver horn-loaded cab, @ average 103db, that would be SP landmark.





-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net