Calling out the big boys
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Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=14624
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Topic: Calling out the big boys
Posted By: loonie
Subject: Calling out the big boys
Date Posted: 12 February 2008 at 11:41pm
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Ok some of you may know that I am planning on investing in a Void infinite 8 MK1 (possibly MK2 if I get some more cash together) It has been pointed out to me by another forum member that maybe this isn't the best decision. He advised one of the more renowned and classic work horses such as the Crest 9001 or the Crown Macrotech 5000vz. I'm needing to run 4 - 2 x 15 Turbosound TSE copies. My thoughts were to save on weight, latency, complicity, power, cost and height in the rack. Any suggestions or comments would be good, Rog maybe a bit of technical back up here and re-vitalise my confidence in the Infinite 8? Cheers all |
Replies:
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:15am
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i personally would go for the 9001 - heavy but in my opinion probably the best bass amp ever built, and totally comfortable at 2 ohms. next would be the 5000vz, so many big pro users cant be wrong, sound a little warm and fuzzy to me compared to the clean sounding crest, but fairly bombproof, just keep the heatsinks clean as they can block up, causing thermal stress on the o/p stage.
I have not had any dealings with the infinate range myself, but have heard a variety of opinions from good to bad, but i dont think that void can approach the experience and proved track record of the other amp manufacturers mentioned.
If you want to save on weight, then go for a 2nd hand lab gruppen 4000. these are totally dependable, powerfull and sound incredible. not many around 2nd hand, but there is a reason for that - they are worth the hunt.
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Posted By: loonie
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:29am
| Wicked, cheers dude. Perhaps the advice was best, any Infinite 8 users wanna step up to the plate? |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 2:50am
Just a thought, what's the rating of the 15" drivers? Reason I ask is that the power level of the infinite 8 would probably be incredibly OTT for 4 2 x 15". You can run 4 TSW-718s off a 2 x 2250W amp quite happily and still have headroom to spare, let alone 2 x 3800W. Yes headroom is nice, but for 8 15" drivers I think that it's slightly OTT. |
loonie wrote:Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 9:45am
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Can't comment on reliability but I've heard what the infinite 8 v2s can do, the noise they make and the juice they suck is frightening. I watched the current meter peak at 32 amps (UK voltage) then went outside at took my earplugs out. And readjusted my hair.
------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:26am
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Thats another thing, in these days of us all being green and network operators being very resistant to installing new feeds anywhere are amps which pull this much really that practical? For a comparison with the switchmodes, my MC2 E45 powering F218's with very bass heavy material draws an average of 6A, with momentary peaks of around 10A. So you could supply 3 of these amps quite easily with the same supply your going to need for 3 9001s, 5002VZs or Inf 8's. Figures for my Lab 2000C's are similar though obviously less because of the smaller output. I know a lot of manufactures are still charging back for the IP on lightweights and as such they are a bit more S/H, but ultimately they are cheaper to manufacture, have a much cleaner sound and save on weight, power and raw material - has big iron had its day? |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:56pm
All of us who love the big old amps, can't ignore this. There are fewer and fewer buildings that can supply 220-240V @ 32 amps. Loonie if you really must have 2ohms per side, you know which amps to look at. If you want to be able to take your rig every where, 2x amps that can supply 1500wpc @ 4ohms would benefit you much more, and be more reliable. Which means just buying another Network 4, would be job done. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:19pm
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I don't get this. How can an amp put out 1,000's of watts but only draw 6 to 10 amps. That's like saying a 1Kw electric fire will only draw 2 amps, when we all know it should draw 4.34 amps if the voltage is 230 volts. The Infinite 8 v2 is nearly 90% efficient, which puts it up there with the best switch more amps that use a class AB or H output stage. If you see 32 amps draw on the front its because there sh*t loads of watts coming out. The big crest and crown amps are only something like 70 to 75% efficient, so if its 75% efficient then the amp will draw 8750 watts to put out 5000 watts or 38 amps. This is more that the 32 amps that the Infinite 8 v2 needs to put out lots more power than that. Are you starting to get it know. You can't get something for nothing and if an amp is only drawing 10 amps and it was an impossible 100% efficient it would be putting out 2300 watts. I can't see any way of putting in 2300 watts or power and getting more out. Its physically impossible and I think at the shootout we will really start to see some lies exposed if they allow it. So can we stop saying the Infinite 8 v2 is power hungry, it's the most efficient transformer amp ever and if likes to consume a bit of juice is because there some real juice coming out. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:34pm
I have stopped mentioning this in the amp forum, because everytime I did, someone would use the smoke and mirrors argument of, "Well music is not a continous sine wave, so most of the time you are not drawing full power". I would prefer to pay for an amp, that is rated @ X kilowatts per channel @ 4ohms stereo/2 ohms bridged, and has manly enough PSU to draw the required current in the eventuality that continous performance to specifications is required. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 1:57pm
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Yep, I'm with you.
I don't think people realise what and how systems like Irration play there bass. Lets just say its not country and western to 20 people on a sunday afternoon like most PA rental compaines have to do most of the time.
Its full on almost sine waves compressed to hell and feed though a preamp that only satan knows whats going on inside and then compressed some more and even more satan stuff going on and on........ But he, I, you and a lot more people love it. It needs that much darkness to bring out the light that is sadly missing from most people now.
Yeah, lets make an amp thats 95% efficient that draws 150 amps. ya hoooooo.
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Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 2:04pm
It's about average power though isn't it, not peak. Intelligent switchmode power supplies can fill their resevoirs in a much more controlled manner than a linear with rectifier. The DC link cap is always going to try and charge itself when its coupled to a rectifier and tranny, you can be a bit cleverer when your using switchmodes. If an amp was drawing 32A constantly then at 90% efficency it would be sticking 3700W into a 4R load constantly. Ignoring the fact that no music has a duty cycle of 100% and that very little of it is a perfect sine wave anyway I think we're safe to proceed on the basis that no load is going to need full power, all the time. Given that the music isn't constant and peak power is very rarely drawn for any great length of time; given a sufficent resevoir, fast enough SMPS and intelligent controller with PFC the average and peak current drawn from the supply can be significantly less than the peak current supplied to the load. Not to mention that you can soft start them much better than you can linear supplies. Granted given a constant high power load the input current is going to have to be higher, but the load profile of a sound system is quite different to that of a fan heater. Another factor is that a controlled PSU drawing a fairly constant current is going to be much friendlier on the building supply than a linear whose demand is constantly going up and down. PFC also helps keep gennies happy and a well controlled DC link is going to minimise dv/dt stresses on the switching devices and prolong MTBF. I know some of the transformer amps are still held in this god like awe, but isn't it time designers moved on from what is essentially 1970's technology? Are people going to be this resistant to Audio IGBT's too? |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 2:30pm
 ------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |
Posted By: Nox
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:12pm
 really enjoyed this thread.------------- "We've got lumps of it round the back". |
Posted By: loonie
Date Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:35pm
Wow cheers fpr the great response's guys, alot of information to take in and churn over for the next couple of nights  I do see ya point levyte but I dislike using the network 4 as I cannot see when my drivers are clipping as all I have is a digital bar graph to watch and a DB count that goes all over the place. This is literally the only reason as the amount of power is wicked 1700w@4ohm is great. But I just worry so much that I'm going to blow up my speakers, it drives me mad. Something with a nice vu display is what I'm looking for  .I have found that Void gives me what I like, I've tried using the Macrotech series which is nice but I just find it a bit retro and muddy on bass with the 5000 model. When I heard it powering some Looney bins playing similar styles of music that I play I wasn't really impressed and could see the rack getting a fair amount of signal yet no real scary bass from the Looneys. Never used any Crest stuff personally or heard any so can't comment on that. The Void gear I've obviously heard on my own set-up many times and a friend has been nice enough to lend me his Infinite 8 MK1 and that womps on the Tasco's. So my thoughts were get what sounds good to me or something better I.E the V2. @Steve I'm using pd156 Turbosound TSE copies (2x15) I was planning on using the Infinite to power all eight at 925w each. which would be half the amount of the RMS rating which is how I tend to run my system as I have found that it produces the best sound whilst maintaining a safe amount of headroom. Cheers for all the great responses, I think I'll be waiting until after the shoot-out to see some technical specs and some reviews on what people think. Could someone link me to the thread please as I assume the results we be posted in there? Many thanks everyone |
Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:48am
I'm glad you said this Rog. A http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12367 - link to an old thread of mine on a similar issue. Like I've said before, I've heard the inf 8 spanking 8 scoops, 4 a side sucking 32A off the mains, and it was frightening, that and the maths adds up for it. It doesn't for FFAs, but I've heard king shiloh using one and it definitely seemed to have no problem thumping down 8 volt drivers. What gives? how long does an amp have to put out a specified power for it to be quoted as 'rms'? ------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:11am
| See above ^^ |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:17am
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Well like that man said above its all about duty cycle, and you reggae boys do like to use a lot of cycles, ha ha.
I've don't some expriments with this and there is a long post somewhere about it. But my findings were that compression can make an amp draw anything you like. I played a quite vocal and piano track though an Inf 8v2 into 2 ohms per side. The track had not been compressed and on peaks the amp was drawing about 5 amps. I then compressed the same track very heavily and played it again. It was now drawing 36 amps almost continually. Thats more that Irration pulls playing 8 scoops and I was only playing a vocal and piano track that didn't have any bass and only had around the centre of the piano played very quitely. So duty cycle is what you make it. The bass on dub is compressed and sometimes continuous, its like connecting up a sinewave generator. I'm still not convinced that in a situation like this a switchmode supply and lets be honest there is only one with a supply rated at higher than 2KVa, can provide the power for this type of music.
A good amp has a power supply that is rated at double the draw it will ever be called upon to deliver, go out and measure the current crop of switch mode supplys and you will find that for a 4Kw amp they are using a 2KVa supply. If what you play has a duty cycle of 50% then it will just about do it, with nothing in reserve I might add, but hook that up to a sig gen and a dummy load, or the equivalent which is most reggae sound systems and I'm not convinced a 2KVa supply is enough to give you 4Kw out the back.
Cue SteveAATAW...............
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Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:40am
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Loonie,
If you are only ever going to drive into 4 ohms per side then it doesn't come much better that the Network 4, as you have found out. I didn't include a clip light as there is a brickwall limiter on the DSP. Connect up the amp to a laptop with the software for the amp and play with the limiter. Start with the treshold really low and connect you bass cabs up to the amp. Drive the input really hard or as hard as you think you will ever be likely too and then raise the threshold untill 1. the amp clips, which you should be able to hear, or 2. the drivers can't take anymore. At this point lower the threshold a bit untill the drivers can take it or you don't hear any clipping. Now store the setting to a program. The amp will never go any louder than you set it unless you change some settings prevoiusly in the chain. I know people who set up like this and never have a problem as they keep the same processing kit before the amps and know the point of where everything runs safely. But yeah, wacking that brickwall limiter on that amp will stop it from ever clipping.
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Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:48am
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The output stage draws from the DC link though not the supply doesn't it? Its not quite as simple with as just saying if the load is demanding 10A therefore the input current must be greater than 10A. If it were a lamp or heater than fair enough, but even with the beloved 'dub' it isn't constant, even if it were a 50Hz sine wave at clip level, the supply can deliver the power required into the DC link faster than the load takes it out it. It would be more interesting to see the 1/2CVsquared rating of the amps dc link rather than its input rating. Not to mention that given there's no stupidly big toroid any more, the decrease in the L in series with the supply means the PSU can pull power out of the mains far quicker than it can in a linear supply and far more efficiently, electronic soft start means no need for wasteful NTC's in the power path either. Aside from the technical sh*te, a more useful test - I replaced a CA-18 with an E45. Runs at 2R stereo and goes louder than the CA18 ever could and is a much cleaner sound. CA18 used to draw about 12A-14A average for the same program material, peaks of 20A+. I've A/B'd it against a 5002VZ too, same story again, much better sound. Its not that were playing wussy material either. It's pretty much as bass heavy as dub, its significantly faster and its all compressed to hell right out of the studio (god bless the L2)... |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:18am
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I do agree that if the SMP is done well then you can have a lot of fun. Have you had a look at the schematic for the QSC PL9 on there website. Wow looks like it was designed by aliens or people from 400 years in the future. Its a very complicated bit of kit.
What I think I'm saying is that there is no substitute for a good power supply. Its easy to get that with a conventional supply but SMP has not been around as long and people do seem to skimp a bit with the rating of the SMP they use. I just come from a time where big supplys were big and I know SMP can do it as there are some good examples around, but I would not say that every company has mastered the SMP yet.
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Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:28am
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I dont understand this ? We have and do run 1x Opus HD2500/2500 and a 1x HD1500/1500 off a 13amp plug hitting limit all night ?
They are both run @ 2 ohm per channel, so how do we get 8000w from a 13amp plug then ??? ------------- Gone |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 11:15am
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You're not hitting 8kW constantly, if at all. The RMS level of music, even heavily ultramaximised stuff, still normally tops out at -6dB, most stuff is -9dB and older music can be as low as -18dB |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 3:07pm
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So your saying my amp never really gives my cabinets 5000w ? ------------- Gone |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 3:39pm
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It probably will for momentary peaks, but not constantly and not even for a majority of the time. If it was putting it out constantly your drivers voice coils probably wouldn't last long. Although a loudspeaker represents a pretty static impedance load (yes it varies with frequency and temperature slightly but nominally it has a relatively constant impedance) the signal that is being amplified is dynamic, dynamics are what music is about and the power goes up and down as the music goes up and down. Think of the kick drum, it has a massive amount of power when the hammer first hits the skin, but it rapidly fades away towards zero. The signal going to your speaker does the same thing. |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 5:43pm
Iam slowly understanding this 
What is the most you could draw from a 13amp plug then ? ie how many amps could we run off one plug. ------------- Gone |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:17pm
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With the big iron amps like the Inf 8, 1 is probably the safe limit for a 13A circuit. If you are plugging into a ring main you could probably have 2 or 3 on one circuit providing they are plugged into seperate outlets (not either side of a double socket). Don't turn them on all at once either, switch on surge will more than likely blow the breaker. All depends on what your playing, what you're driving and how hard your hitting it. |
Posted By: twinypaul
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:38pm
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just put a quarter bolt in the plug then you can suck up 32amps off the ring main ------------- paul |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 14 February 2008 at 7:25pm
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oh dear, are you related to richie t?
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Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 17 February 2008 at 11:38pm
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** I am a void dealer, so this may be a bit biased** I recently recieved a brand new Void Infinite 8 V2..
It replaced a Chevin A6000 driving 4 double 18" reflex cabs..
Now.. I ahve not had a chance to give it a proper workout yet, but I have used it for a couple of corporate things so far..
Initial impressions are: Loads of power, not as "warm" sounding as the A6000, but definately nice..
First show was a pretty loud DJ rig for a live TV show afterparty w. loads of celebrities.. DJ was a well known radio personality who definately liked it loud... Amp ran cool all night..
The chassis of the amp looks like it came from one of the General Dynamics group of companies..
I am adding more of these to the rental stock as we speak ( recieved a pair of Inf5V2 the other day ) replacing a pile of Chevin amps.. One could argue about the weight, but the way most of my work goes on, its not an issue as i have access to forklifts, trucks w. liftgates and volunteer stagehands :-D
/peter ------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 2:54am
so where does that leave us? with an amp that has loads of power again?
 mite as well go and get a PL9, you said your self its not as good, not in those words but similar
we want power and lots of warm bass please, just like the crest 9001 and vz5000
I will one day hear your amp and look forward to it, infact i have never heard any of your stuff so will be good ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 3:22am
| Do you mean you want people to abandon the pursuit of audio quality and keep making amps which give a distorted/warm/fuzzy bottom end? |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 10:59am
It seems there is a market for the amps which pursue audio quality and precision, at the expense of warm, fuzzy bottom end, and there is a market for amps which dont. I think we need to accept this, and just buy amps according to what is most important to us. ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:07am
Like the Crown itech's which I don't see mentioned too much no more & which many don't rate!
Again, I personally believe it depends on the music being played & a personal preference!
The following quote alone made me make up my mind...
I also heard it for myself too, also in Stoke on Trent a few weeks after.
------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |
Posted By: loonie
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:20am
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Thinking about looking into a Second hand FFa but I just don't think its going to happen.
Possibly thinking of 2 x Amps which will run in 4 ohm stereo. But still I want atleast 2.4k a side if not 2k will have to do.
So many choices and so many different facotrs to consider, as said before like Peter weight is no concern for me as I never lift the rack. So if it will be cheaper to get 2 seperate amps and run them in stereo so be it.
I just want raw unadulterated power
 The hunt continues...
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Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 11:25am
Hi Peter,
I'm pleased you're getting on well with the Infinite 8 v2. Yes that Chevin sound. Its hard to beat the Chevins when it comes to sound quality, they have this sweetness and the sound appears a lot closer than it is. It might not be right, but I like it. Most other amps seem a bit flat and over there compared with the Chevins. I'm not going to say the Infinite 8 v2 will sound better than the Chevins, but give those transistors a chance to run in and I think you might find it has some of that Chevin sweetness and magic. We do a 36 hour test into 2 ohms per side with each Infinite 7 and 8 and although this does run the transistors in a bit you won't really hear any diffrence untill the amps clocked up around 100 hours. After that compare and see what you think.
I think you're really appreciate the Infinite 5 and 6's you will get soon. All the smaller Infinite models now use Sanken output and driver transistors. We have to import the Sankens and I know you know you're stuff so will know that Sankens get used for many of the best Hi Fi and esoteric amps on the planet.
Happy amping,
Rog.
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Posted By: Peter Moller
Date Posted: 18 February 2008 at 8:09pm
------------- real phone no: +45 four zero six two four four nine eight ( using obvious anti phone spam encryption ) |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 12:54pm
Rog, this running in of the transistors, is it something that happens to all new amps or just the very powerful ones ? or does it depend on what make & type of trannies used ?
------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 5:12pm
| Tek...generally applies to all electronics right down to small signal stuff like mixers/crossovers, though I imagine the effect would be more noticeable in amplifiers which have far greater gain and large value components. Capacitors also need burning in before their true sonic character is revealed. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 7:09pm
Not disputing the fact that some people hold them in reverence but the way the manufacturers are going would suggest that either they don't agree, its a misguided view, or the size of the market that thinks like that is tiny. The only amps I can think of that are still on sale are the Macrotechs and CA's and they presumably aren't long for this world as a current product. Have any of the dub rig owners ever A/B tested the modern amps against the old ones. Because in every application I've done it the new amps win, even bass. Unless there is some oddity associated with scoops other than cost I can't see why people chug along with the old amps when the sound is so much better from the new ones. I know the audio world is famously stupid for its 'me too' attitude and therefore whatever amps the best rig or biggest act uses are automatically the best but the myth about their being less bass from the new amps is rubbish? |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 7:22pm
Don't forget Void Inf 8 Mk2.
What sort of music did you perform the Test with?
What do you class as better Steve? Clarity, precision, speed?
I wouldnt argue that the top lightweight amps sound cleaner, more precise and accurate. However the people who typically buy Crown VZ5s, Crest 9001s, Void Inf8Mk2s, Big lumps of Chinese Iron aren't normally looking for that. They are looking for what you call warm fuzzy, unrealistic sub. So what I will be doing soon is lightweight verses heavyweight amps playing dub through scoops to see if "the myth about their being less bass from the new amps is rubbish". ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 10:36pm
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Tested with various styles but the main duty they do week in week out is bassline which is a catch all for a few styles but basically 135-140bpm with bass driven excessively sub heavy riffs. E45 blew the CA18 we had out of the water, it went much louder, was still just as deep but had far more control. It could also sustain the power for much longer on things like time stretched sub-bass drops which you could always hear the DC link cap emptying and the power disappearing up the arse of the amp on the CA18. 8001 and VZ5002 I tested against it for a laugh couldn't get anywhere near it either. The Inf 8 from what I've heard is a very different beast to the old big iron amps. If its efficiency rating is to be believed then the output stage is probably very different and those I know that have heard it say it sounds very clean and precise anyway. I know the PLX, XTi and other cheap class D amps are crap at bass, everyone does. But they're often used as to the example of why lightweight amps are no good but the comparison is worthless. The Macrotechs and x001's were tour grade amps, comparing them to the budget lightweights is like comparing an 8001 to a Peavey CS4000. When put up against the proper tour grade lightweights, not all of which are class D. The new amps have won so far in everything I've heard. |
Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 10:55pm
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The K-10s really do wee all over any 'traditional' amps. In all respects. And I've compared them in real-world scenarios. It really does make you wonder why anyone would buy a 3/4u high 45kg amplifier any more. But it's just new (ish) technology.. And thus more expensive. I wonder if there was the same discussion when Neodymium magnets were starting to be used? But if you look at the amps that people are touring with, I don't think there's any lumps of iron in any amp racks to be seen!
As for the K-20...
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Posted By: Tiff
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 10:57pm
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i know all the void amps stats are correct ,unlike alot of amps out there.i know this as a friend of mine was sent a batch to test them when they 1st came out. he even claims that the void infinate series rms is actually more then it states on paper!!! obviously not loads more but maybe 10% in excess.this chap who did the test said he was very very impressed and hes been in the sound business for 40 years +. theres one thing i praise more then anythign in this world and its honesty,and everything ive heard rog say,despite himself being the designer,is in fact true.this is why i bought the void amp,this is why i also feel im so happy wiht it as it is the dogs .... |
Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 11:03pm
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so if the amp was producing more than the stated output, how do you know that all the amp stats are correct?
Obviously they're not if your friend is to be believed!
(not having a pop at Void, naturally)
-Mike
p.s. Most people who've been in the sound biz for 40 years are impressed at an amplifier that produces more than 1000w RMS
 Back in their day 1000w was 10 100w WEM amps stacked up in a chipboard rack :) |
Posted By: Tiff
Date Posted: 19 February 2008 at 11:53pm
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everythign in the amp is accordance with the rest of the other factors in the amp itself,he just said he was suprised the amp was slightly more rms then stated whihc he said was extremely rare for companies to do this.he reckons they did it just to make sure anyone testing it,evem if they made a mistake/variable making it no 100% accurate ,make it te stated rms whatever. ill let rog do the rest of the talking |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 12:50am
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Hi Tiff,
Thanks for the big up mate.
If anyone has some big dummy loads, a sine wave gen and rms volt meter get a Infinite 7 v2 and measure the output into 4 ohms bridged. I measure 144 volts with no clipping which is 5184 watts. The measurement frequency can be swept from 20Hz to 20KHz and its 144 volts accross the board. If you have a look at the Infinite 7 v2 manual it states 4887 watts from 20hz to 20KHZ into 4 ohms bridged. So its real power is more than its quoted power.
Why do this, well we sell to certain countries in Europe where the customers are very fusy and check everything. I won't mention the country but I bet you can guess. If they measure specs and they will on everything, then I must have a built in safety margin. What they read must be what I said or better still exceed the specs. I've even had customers from this country ring me up and tell me that I left a space between dB and the number in a manual. So should be 90dB. not 90 dB. I like customers like this though as they push you to get it right and force you to be honest.
Steve, I'll drop a Infinite 8v2 around soon and you can put a clamp meter on it and measure the output. Then you can see that it is around 87% efficient depending on the load.
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Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 1:22am
| Ah, you said 90% the other day Rog, which just got me wondering how close it actually was. Obv the linear supply is going to eat 2 or 3% of the power and that so was just wondering what topology could get the 93% efficency in its output stage to get the overall at 0.9, obviously if its 0.87 then the output stage only has to be 0.9, which is easily done |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:22am
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Didn't expect you to be so excat Steve, ha ha.
I said around 90% and I think 87 is close without going to far.
But if you want it exact its 87% when driven into an 8 ohm load per side, 86% into a 4 ohm load and 85% into a 2 ohms load. The extra heat generated by the transformer is why its less efficient into lower impedances. The output stage is G with triple rail, highest rail 185v. There's a lot of caps in there too, nearly 500,000 uf. Output transistors are Onsemi.
I think you mentioned in an earlier post that NTC's can be inefficient, but I always bypass the series NTC's with a delayed relay, geeting around the insersion loss.
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Posted By: Tiff
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 11:54am
thats seems to correspond with what he was saying. he was impressed to sya the least! lol |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 12:16pm
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I'd love to see how the something like the K-10 compares with the Infinite 8 mk2. The size and weight of the K-10 would be great, and it's efficiency would be plug friendly, but the Void is less than half the price and has slightly higher max power output. What sort of performance differences would you expect to see? Would the Void be more capable of outputting at full power continuously? I imagine where the power supply is limited the efficiency of the K-10 would mean it'd excel? EDIT: I meant K-6 not K-10!! |
Posted By: Strange Daze
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 1:18pm
Id go for the crest 9001.
Not ever heard a cleaner amp of that size, nor have i ever used such a reliable amp.
Ive had bad experince with all the others mentioned. Spontaneous combustion under nominal loads, broken out the box etc etc.
Crest 9001 = the dog bollocks. Full Stop.
effciency aside and all that jazz....they work. And will work forever as long as you give them the occassional hoovering out.
Dan Compression has a 9001 and a 7001. Both have been (what id call), ragged. And they still run PERFECTLY.
money well spent :)
peas,
N
ps- and now that Peavey have taken on Crest, service is getting better and better, IF you ever need it :)
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Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 1:35pm
Where on earth do you get that idea from?
Big advantage is the onboard control / limiting processing as well. i.e. you can limit current intake to 16 or 32 amps so as not to trip anything.
K-20 is just two bridged K-10s in one chassis.
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Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 1:42pm
Inf 8 Mk2 costs about £1300 new, used 9001 cost about £900. What are the prices of K10/K20 these days?  ------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 1:47pm
You probably wouldn't get much change out of a couple of grand 
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Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 2:09pm
Have they gone down in price or something ? They were at just under £1590 when they first hit the road!
------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |
Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 2:09pm
And you probably wouldnt get an amp either.
------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
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Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 3:53pm
The K10 and the Void fill their DC-link caps in a very different way though, the PSUs are very very different beasts |
Posted By: tallmike
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:08pm
Depends if you're one of those people that pay the list price....
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Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:27pm
------------- "Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy". |
Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:50pm
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page 3 in the k-series manual says you should use the powersofts for more headroom rather than more volume, that and nowhere does it say that their output is rms. Until I've heard one giving 8 1000-1200w drivers a thorough thrashing, I'll keep my reservations. ------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 4:58pm
| speak to jeff 9 bar. i think he's running th bass from his 12 labs with powersofts.. |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 5:01pm
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I'm mainly use to heavy amps (weight-wise), but after hearing hearin' this lot (below) for the first time in Bristol carnival last year ('07), I had to take a stop & really listen to it good for ages.
It was flipping soundin' proper & heavy.
 ------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |
Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 20 February 2008 at 5:20pm
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what was that lot running tek? There's an easy £10k of amps there... ------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 12:05pm
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Mike - I do apologize! Don't know where the hell i got that from to be honest, I must have had too many browser windows open and read that from the wrong spec sheet or summat! I should've been comparing with the K-6 (not the K-10), which is around twice the price of the inf 8 and gives 2x2500W @ 4ohm. |
Posted By: Tekasis
Date Posted: 21 February 2008 at 3:12pm
Some Thunderidge cabs...
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11163&KW=carnival&PN=2 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11163&KW=carnival&PN=2
------------- **Heavy Weight-Line** A home without books is like a body with no soul. |