CDJ or vinyl decks?
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Electro Frying Forum
Forum Description: Talk about drivers, processors and mixers
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=15997
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 11:10am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: CDJ or vinyl decks?
Posted By: phattomherby
Subject: CDJ or vinyl decks?
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 4:34pm
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I currently have a pair of Numark Axis 9s and i love them. Great to use and have only just got a slight problem after quite a few years of use. The thing i'm wondering is basically, whether i should get vinyl decks instead... My reason is, is the avalibilty of some tunes. I mix mainly Jungle, Ragga Jungle, Breakcore etc. and finding vinyls for these types of music is extremely easy but finding CD's or Wavs or 320kbps MP3s is absolutely imposible. I have searched for ages for free and paid versions and can rarely find any. Another slight annoying reason is, is that some of my friends find CD decks to be 'not true to the sound', not that it's swaying me.
So is it really worth going for vinyls just because songs are easier to find?
Also baring in mind that CDJs have probably got more future, and what about computer mixing things like Traktor and all the new stuff...?
Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 4:56pm
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Vinyl is a little different to CDs in terms of sound, but nothing to get excited about IMO. The features you get with CD decks for mixing and the weight loss of your record bag more than make up for it. Why not buy the records you want, rip them to .wav using a PC and a good external soundcard then burn them to CD. You can keep the .wav file in case you loose or damage the CD and sell the vinyl on again (perhaps to a vinyl loving friend?) |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:15pm
| Yup, I'm with Owain. That's a good use for Tracktor/Final scratch etc. Rip your vinyl onto a laptop so it's the same quality as the original but easier to carry. |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:18pm
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D & B, I hate it, BUT, I take my hat off to it for sticking with vinal. CD's DO sound clinical. Mixing on CD's with all the effects is ruining dancefloors, too many DJ's with their heads up their ****.
There is an old saying among mobile type DJ's, "Make the girls dance and the rest will look after it's self"
Vinal is more tactile, sounds much better and the dancfloor benefits from nice mixing from within it's obvious constraints. Some D & B DJ's are highly talented at timing drops etc on vinal without the aid of loops and such like. S0, get your Numark repaired, get some 1200/1210's as well and join the gym. Or get an MC to carry your records, you know they wanna be DJ's really  ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:36pm
I hate vinyl 
CDJ's all the way !!!!!!!!!! ------------- Gone |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:44pm
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Meh, any proper DJ with a hint of talent and a pair of CDJs will rock the house just as much as any DnB DJ with vinyl. Decent CDJ DJs hate the overuse of effects that plagues current dancefloors too y'know. Also I would blame the DJM600/800 for this a lot quicker than any CDJ. I'm growing to really dislike the flange effect on those. |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:45pm
I never thought of that, best idea i've heard in a long while. I'm not really into DJing for skills if it were put that way. Just to be good at mixing and selecting tunes. Not to say that scratching and stuff isn't impressive. CDJ decks are also so much smaller and sleeker looking IMO. Will be staying then. Thanks for the suggestions. |
odc04r wrote:Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:48pm
Another thing i'm agreeing with you on. The axis9 has some good effects, but they sound so cheesy, if i wanted to use a flange or phaser i'd want to use it on one aspect of the music, such as vocals or drums. Other effects like reverse are good, but then you have the problem that you're now a bar behind, not a big issue but if it's a well known song theres a slight limbo period. Without souding too cliche, i guess at the end of the day it is the music and vibe that counts. |
Posted By: adambomb
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:56pm
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CDJ1000s and DJM800... DJM800 just for the roll effect... I don't use the phaser tho. ------------- http://www.freespeakerplans.com" rel="nofollow - www.freespeakerplans.com |
Posted By: SmokeyJoe
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 9:19pm
| vinyl all the way. if need to play digital music get serato for a small cost only £320 on ebay. ledgend use the money you have saved to buy some technics. you wont regret it. |
Posted By: SmokeyJoe
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 9:27pm
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To elaborate a little bit on my mates post!
I have a pair of 1210's which I prefer mixing on to anything else I've ever used. Even CDJ-1000s. CD's are NOT the way forward IMHO. I really think that Vinyl is the ultimate medium for DJ use. You cant be a scratch DJ and use CDJ's!! Serato is an absolutely fantastic bridge between the world of analogue and digital technologies. A scratch DJ can still put stickers all over the vinyl as cue markers and mix tunes without just pressing buttons and looking at LCD screens... I just use my decks as I always have, except when looking for my next tune I have to flick through virtual crates on a laptop screen instead of my record box. I also keep my real vinyl for use at home and just bypass serato when I wanna play that tune! Think about it... - Joe. |
Posted By: RiddimKid
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:58pm
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If you never started out on vinyl your not a real dj!!!!!
Cdjs are good but the feel of vinyl is something else!!!!
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Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 11:55pm
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Glad to hear CD DJ's also sick of over use of effects, also interesting to note the blame may also be at the mixer effects. I think there may be an age thing here as well? However vinal will always sound nicer on a big system than CD to anybody that considers a warm sound a good sound. CD's also get damaged a lot easier than vinal IMO. Anyhow, each to their own, just remember the dancefloor is usually full of paying punters that have come to be entertained
PS. Pulling some old tunes from some old, smelly, smokey record boxes is much much more fun than track searching my hard drive  ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 12:10am
If a DJ puts a tune on and no one is in the booth to see it, does it still make a sound 
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Posted By: sukebe
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 2:29am
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vinyl all the way. I just prefer the feel of it. It feels more manual, more controllable. You can see when the breakdowns are coming in, and when it will drop again. Plus, record shopping is alot better than CD shopping. You get to hear it in the shop, then take it home and listen properly, try a few mixes etc. But if vinyl dont float your boat, stick with CDs. |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 3:10am
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What !! decks are the biggest pain in the ass ever ! feedback, sh*t needles, f**ked records, no ground leads, missing feet, the list goes on. I friend of mine is in a very big hard-dance ' live ' PA he is a scratch dj and wont use anything but CDJ's. you can CUE so quicky and save 100's of CUE points on the Sd card. They do everything a 1210 would do but better.
Vinyl is dead ( if it isn't it should be ) long live Cdjs ------------- Gone |
Posted By: Dj Maca Roots
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 7:24am
------------- Can't Stop Jah Music |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:26am
Bespoke, I rest my case, "Clinical". All the reasons you put forward for not liking it are THE reasons for liking it. Old Aston Martin, a bit tempermenal, but oh so satisfying. Mitsubishi Evo, video game. Your just toooooo young ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 12:22pm
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Why would anybody like feedback, sh*t needles, no ground leads and missing feet ??? Maybe i am tooooooo young to understand but vinyl is dying out and the sooner the better ------------- Gone |
Posted By: SmokeyJoe
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 12:34pm
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I don't feel like I'm DJ'ing when using a pair of CDJ's. More like operating a machine. Vinyl is just unparalleled when it comes to mixing. Like sukbe said - its manual. Theres no gadgets to help a sh*t DJ sound good.
A proper DJ should be able to play on Decks and CDJ's yes, because some clubs are even getting rid of their 1210's now I hear! I'm sticking with serato for now. It lets me play all my tunes - without having to pay a premium to get them on wax, and then whenever I'm browsing in my local record shop and I hear that tune that I MUST have - I can just buy it on plastic - rip it onto my HD and its all good! 100% Perfect solution - also I find CDJ's way too unreliable for me. Just refusing to read CD-R's and freezing etc... COME ON!! 1210's FOREVER - Technics RULES http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Nl0CqjRq8 - Joe. |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:30pm
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Vinal is here to stay,
Pioneer make bad car stereos.
CD's will soon be gone to be replaced by HDD/Flash drive stuff.
Can't see that missing parts can be blamed on the equipment though.
Seriously though, no sarcasm or smiley faces, I know Technics that are 22 years old, still perfect. Lets see if CDJ's are there in twenty? ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 11:41pm
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I know pairs of Technics that have been installed in clubs and shagged in 5 years due to abuse? My housemates CDJs will indeed probably last 20 years as they get looked after immensely well. CDJs are also a tad more complicated than a record deck. It's all very subjective. Why don't we all just use what we like and stop trying to convert everyone else  Don't know why I even care, I only ever DJ to myself at home after a few beers these days for a laugh. |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:32am
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Yeah your right, 'tis fun baiting though.. ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:45am
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Vinyls great, you can have the best system in the world then someone turns up with a load of music thats been pressed on something akin to old tarmac and instantly your system sounds like turd Crap in = crap out and the majority of pressings these days, especially the smaller independent ones sound absolutely shocking |
Posted By: mikey bear
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:51am
how can anyone argue with the striking alure of the 7inch?!
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Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 9:41am
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AsI havn't purchased a 12 for five years I'm shocked. Are the pressings now that bad.
7"'s are sexy Mikey, always had a soft spot for the 10" myself. Coloured ones, nice. ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 10:18am
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Quote - '' I'm shocked. Are the pressings now that bad''
YES, prob is all these dj's / producers making tunes on there laptops seem to have no idea about real sound and how its going to sound on a big system. Many times i've had djs turn up and ask '' can i just put this new tune on i made '' then they say it dont sound right ummmmmm maybe becuase its recorded like f**king +10db ( ment to be 0db ) then put on top all effects they add and your have got yourself a sh*t sounding tune ------------- Gone |
Posted By: colinmono
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 2:55pm
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I've been djing for 12 years, started on belt drive turntables, then 1210's for many years. I have a huge vinyl collection but dj almost exclusively on CDJ's these days. I certainly didn't switch for the effects, I never use them. The killer argument for me is durability - sure a brand new 12" sounds the same (give or take) as a CD, but once played it instantly starts to degrade.
Your favourite tracks end up getting played a lot, so end up sounding sh*te when compared to fresh vinyl or a digital track - gradually the dynamic range fades, along with the crisp edge to the percussion. I dropped an old vinyl track into a primarily digitial set at the weekend, a real classic, and instantly got people coming up to ask what had happened to the sound. Fortunately there was plenty of headroom on the rig so I turned up the overall level and boosted the hf in an attempt to add back some crispness, it helped but you can't put back what friction has erased! Of course I miss the feel of the vinyl, smell, record sleeves, and the ability to see breaks etc (although I think on the CDJ1000's you get a waveform graphic showing the track so that should help - not sure I couldn only afford CDJ800's), but at the end of the day its all about how it sounds, especially for those on the dancefloor. I still buy things on vinyl when I can't get them digitally and rip to wav. Of course, cost is a big factor too - once you've got over the pain of the cost of a pair of CDJ's the cost of a track is so much lower that you can buy much more music. |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 3:40pm
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Keep the vinyl alive!!!
Especially with Jungle, lots comes out as test presses or one away mixes that you will NEVER ever hear from a CD DJ. Trust me i know  ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: Jake_Fielder
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 3:41pm
| Unless you burn it to disc.... |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 4:24pm
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I would buy CD decks if I could be arsed to digitise my collection. I know it's gonna happen soon, I'm just putting it off as long as I can!
Tweet - I swear more exclusives are available on CDs these days, seems it only goes to straight to test if its a guaranteed big track that people really dont want others sharing on CD.
I love vinyl but I think too much of the 'CDs are clinical' comments come from people who aren't used to hearing >16khz, or they use CD players with sh*t DACs/MP3s/unmastered tracks and assume it's the CD as a medium that's at fault.
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Posted By: Calculus
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 4:38pm
------------- Always a compromise, You can't have everything... Where would you put it all. |
Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 4:58pm
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Vinyl over CD for sound. Warmer, more natural and generally nicer to listen to. Plus you can read the sleeve without a microscope. Durability is a weird one, vinyl tends to gradually degrade, CDs are useless after one scratch. Depends which floats yer boat. Both can come back shagged if you lend them to someone careless... I prefer Vinyl. It's just more organic, but if you're just playing tunes inna selecta stylee, no reason not to rip at 24bit/96kHz and play off your hard disk. Space isn't really an issue any more. ------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 5:00pm
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One other thing I don't have to worry about cos im not some big jetsetting badman dj.
Planes + Vinyl = :(
Planes + CDs/hard disk = :)
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Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 5:40pm
Is that a hint Jake?
 True but whos got the time or patience to go through that process, plus id want to keep my specials for myself ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 6:44pm
| My housemate just digitises his old tunes one by one as he fancies listening to them. No massive slog to wade through and the collection builds up quicker than you think. |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 7:09pm
| Another thing about no vinyl is you can push a system much harder in some venues if you don't have to worry about needle induced feedback, in some places it doesn't matter how good the isolation is you still get problems |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 8:53pm
Your right i can push my system a good 10% more when CDj's are used ! ------------- Gone |
Posted By: Tedski
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 9:42pm
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I'm on the fence on this one. Lately I've grown bored of mixing vinyl, and have got myself a digital setup now, like serato/finalscratch. Still the vinyl feel, but oodles of possibilities, vst effects, etc etc and u can still scratch. Check out http://www.mixxx.org/ - Mixx , opensource, free, works with most timecode vinyl. I use DJDecks myself. Oh, but who said u can't scratch on cdj's? http://youtube.com/watch?v=tgD9dPeVXG8 - Another DJ lesson from Kentaro... |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 12:43pm
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I agree with a lot of people... Vinyl does have that sort of nice feel about it, nice to use, nice to own and pull out of a case, but now i reckon the benefits are outwayed by the costs.
I would like to go towards Laptop mixing, as it's so much smaller and apt. But i think you have to spend a fair amount of money on a good laptop and soundcard, then the software and the little mixing thing like serato scratch to get everything to be good. But as with most electronic things over time stuff gets cheaper, so it won't be long.
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Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 1:02pm
This Mixx program looks pretty good and simple to use, im currently using Numark PCDJ REd, ever tried it? ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 1:51pm
| Hmm yeah PCDJ red is bit sh*t tbh. Mixx would be better and traktor walks over it from even using them both at wedding style gigs. |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:26pm
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PCDJ red is ok, but i like it coz ive been using it for years and know its full features, gonna look into the MIXX program though! looks quite simple.
Traktor looks more like a club install program, with all the 4 deck mixing n stuff. ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 3:52pm
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Well the older version of traktor is just 2 deck, version 3. Thats what we use. Mixx looks al ittle basic but it has the features people need. Better on linux than windows atm apparently. |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:00pm
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Gonna look into V3, 2 deck version may interest me, depending on features. ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:59pm
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I have been reading this with some interest.
It seems like everyone has their choice of tool but the DJs who spin vinyl seem to have the word tactile on their lips. So would it help if someone managed to find a way to make a player that looked felt and behaved exactly like a deck and let it control a digital source such as a CD or PC? I know the CDJs are designed to do that sort of thing and not being an expert or anything but I have used them and they feel nothing like vinyl Stu ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 1:00am
they have - serato scratch live by rane you can even have a mixer to go with, the ttm 57sl. sorry if i'm telling you something you already know! |
Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 9:50am
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I have the advatage of using most types as i use decks to mix at home and when playing out reggae/jungle/garage.
CD decks and PC when we do partys for different music types.
Its alot more fun mixing from vinyl. PC/CD mixing to me is just a simplar form as theyve made it so easy, you could just add what tunes u wanna play n then dissapear for a few hours! takes the novelty out when compared to mixing vinyl IMO ------------- PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM. Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music. Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day. |
Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 1:15am
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Tweeter I dont think you could disappear for a few hours, a lot of what being a good DJ is about is knowing what tunes to play at the right time.
If you have pre-planned a mix, it could fall flat on its face if you have guessed the high and low points wrong for the crowd you are playing to, in my few DJ gigs thats the main thing I learned. Darkmatter I didnt know that, I saw all the mentions of serato but foolishly didnt bother to check it out. Stu ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 1:37am
You haven't done many weddings have you? |
Posted By: Tedski
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 8:23pm
There are many options to do this already, Serato as mentioned, and Finalscratch are quite expensive solutions to control digital music, but there are alternatives such as Mixx what I mentioned, DJDecks, Deckadance and a few others. It was the boost my sl1200s needed Add VST effects and a small midi controller and the aging deck+vinyl gets dragged into 2008. |
Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 8:48pm
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Been thinking here. No way there is an answer to whats best, just personal pref.
However, one of the comments was about a needle scraping through a grrove, I think the jist being digital is better? Well, is a violin note not a bow scraping aginst a string, a piano a hammer aginst a string, you get my drift. All these noises (music) are analogue, so therefore is the conversion to digital not a bastardisation of the original? I know a lot of stuff is unreal to start with, but for, "Real" instruments then maybe one vibration just converted to another is best? Food for thought, probably full of things I've not accounted for, but, discuss?? ------------- It's everything, not everythink! |
Posted By: jonaglon
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:11pm
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If you've got rubbish CD players, bad mp3's or scratched records it's gonna sound rubbish, great vinyl does sound lovely and warm, but record it at a high enough quality and no one will be able to tell the difference. The point I wanted to make - if you do decide to put your tunes on a hard drive BACK THEM UP! Unlike vinyl sooner or later ALL hard drives die, don't trust one with anything you care about. There's nothing like turning up at a gig with just a box of 7's - got to be the best way to play records out. Specially if you like bad 80's pop. I'll get my coat. |
Posted By: asaa00
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:32pm
Tech heads will quote the bad tonal proprieties of digital summing...But I agree the difference is only heard by the holiest audiophile... However, as a DJ, I really just love vinyl. I love the feel of it, I love the aesthetics, I love the sound of dust on the record, I love the warmth, I love being in control of an analog medium/instrument and I love collecting records. I really wouldn't ever switch to CD decks, ever, especially now that I've got Ms.Pinky and can control MP3's from my Technics when needed. Before I started spinning, I couldn't possibly understand why vinyl purists (elitists? :p) say that "REAL" DJs spin vinyl... but now I not only understand but agree... |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 11:46pm
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i think theres a certain amount of sticking with what you know on this issue for most of my stuff i started out using a pair of old but reliable 1210's and recently sold one, tother to keep for recording off onto mi computer and got a pair of cdj 800mk2's tbph i cant say that the tactility issue has ever realy concerned me, so its not a lump of vynil? is that realy the best argument there is for using it? its what comes out thats important anyone who sites clinical as an argument on this is forgetting about how sh*te vynil gets after a while "because it sounds nicer" for all of five minuets after which you loose anything above 12Khz. its the song that matters and what you do with it not what format its in. nice up the dance. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:11am
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if you do plump for vinyl, its all down to the cartridge and the way the deck and arm is set up. get it right, the sound cant be beat. get it wrong, and nothing sounds worse given by what i see in terms of peoples decks and how they are set up its a bit of a lost art. it might be boring, but it is vital. |
Posted By: Death_blooms
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 2:05pm
your right. im 16 and have been playing vinyl for around 4 months now and i love it i think there is more skill involved. im not always getting it right but thats the fun of it. cdj's are to comercial but id get a set if i was doing kids partys more often
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Posted By: Death_blooms
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 2:10pm
your best bet is to buy some propper decks lol. sounds like someones had a bad second hand beltdrive experience
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Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 7:28pm
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too comercial? jah tubby's and iration steppas are both now using either pc's or cdjs (at least they have been last times ive seen em) if their commercial i have clearly lost touch with reality quite some time ago. (though thats more of a selecta thing) that aside most people i hear actual complaints about cjd's off are either random punters thinking they know the scene or people just starting out dj'ing who havnt had a great deal of first hand experience with them. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: natauralsoundz
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:20pm
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vinyl all the way for me,,,Certain tunes rare exclusive are only found on vinyl... nothing beats that authantic orignal vinyl sound
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Posted By: djspinback69
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:27pm
| i have always mixed vinyl, but now i have cdj's. they are amazing. try some you will be converted, they are in all the clubs, clubs still have technics they are just always covered in cd's if you still chase rare vinyl, just record it!!!!!!! |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:38pm
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*sigh* one of the places i regularly engineer at has cdj's and vinyl decks, generally the 1210's will be unused apart from a couple of times a month, the cdj's are caned every night. unfortunately quality is wasted on todays youth, they are generally playing low bitrate mp3's badly converted to cd, and boy can it sound thin and rough... At least with a bit of vinyl its generally been properly mastered at the cutting stage.... ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: djspinback69
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:46pm
| this is true, you should always buy 320 kbps mp3's. and unfortunatley yes vinyl usually does get proper mastering whereas mp3 quite often doesn't. a proper dj should be able to do a respectable job regardless of what equipement he gets. cdj's will be industry standard though whatever people think of them, so you might as well buy some!!! |
Posted By: SteveAATW
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 4:55am
Maybe that was true a few years ago but for the non-commercial independent pressings very few are properly mastered anymore because they're selling so few copies mastering is a cost that people can't justify anymore and so the lacquers normally get cut blind using an unmastered digital master - thing is even if people have done a master at the studio its no good unless the mastering engineer knew the target format was vinyl, mastering for CD and mastering for vinyl are two different processes. The use of cheaper/thinner blanks at the pressing plant also degrades the sound further and basically unless its come from a commercially run label vinyl is now incredibly hit and miss and the majority of it sounds very very bad. |
Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:20am
Gonna have to disagree a bit about the thin vinyl affecting the sound. Usually lightweight vinyl is used to keep the cost down by less use of vinyl material ( it`s £1k and up for a tonne!). There was a move towards heavier and heavier vinyl to keep the hip-hop / scratch fraternity happy but now as the market slumps pressing plants are cutting back on costs by reducing weights. I used to work around a 150-170g weight for a 12" but now they are around the 130-140 mark? The original 12"s in the seventies I had as a kid were 120g as the mass pressings required huge quantities of vinyl compound. Differences in compound material can make a difference to the " stifness". Some plants run a percentage of " re-grind" ( old records ,punched and ground up) this old vinyl has pvc chains that have been bonded once already and when pressed again they add "stifness" to the mix! I could go on for ever...but The cut of a tune is where the quality comes from , I`ve never found "lightweight vrs heavyweight " makes any difference? Crap metalwork is usually the main culprit for bad quality. Some people cutback on the processing time and costs and that makes for very bad pressings ! .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:58am
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As a matter interest, Whether thin or thick vinyl, do the grooves remain the same depth. I see this as a key factor in how much recorded info is on the record. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:50am
Yep...the groove is set by the cutting engineer, there is a tolerence but usually that is the goove width. The width determines the amount of music you can fit onto a record. Where quality suffers with width varience is when people try to "cram" too much audio in too short a space. If grooves touch (clash - it`s called) then a record can skip. Obviously bigger bass sounds make for larger waves, the higher freqs are along the groove wall but the bass is the groove itself. Even the compensation of the RIAA eq curves - which cut bass and boost treble can be overloaded by too much bass So the common problem is someone trying to cut a bass heavy record in a short space. That`s why the 12" dance re-mix came about. Trying to get a "bassier" sound in the constraints of a 7" 45rpm record was too tricky. More room to put a "bassier" sound on and that played at 45rpm gave the 10 min dance track. more here... http://www.curvedpressings.com/howa.htm - curved info .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: 4DPA
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:03pm
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Hey.... Is Laurie still involved... wonder what he thinks of scene these days.. first soundman I ever saw clump a dj out for raggin it.. ------------- bs8901 compliant |
Posted By: jethrocker
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 6:17pm
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Tony/Phil.. that's the point in the heavy/light vinyl issue though... on heavier vinyl you can get away with a deeper cut groove. A deeper cut grrove means a louder cut with better bass definition, though the top end can suffer from the extra friction required to drag the needle through those extra micros of acetate. I would definitely disagree with the statement that vinyl releases see better mastering.. as Phil says, no longer the case, especially within the scenes that most use vinyl to play out (ie electronic/reggae/hiphop) where the proliferation of bedroom studios and small independants doing things on the cheap, as well as smaller less experienced mastering/cutting houses is resulting in some pretty terribly cut/pressed releases. It's not uncommon to see the tell tale dark curved lines among the grooves where they are so tight spaced they are touching or to hear a disti8nctly flat top end where a lazy engineer has just lopped it all off to save the grief of setting up properly to get the most out of the cut. |
Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 7:07pm
Yeah he`s still cutting / mastering / producing. No sound system anymore...sold the lot in it`s truck! That`s his info on that page. He has dabbled with some mad cuttings. Locked grooves is his speciality...he did one of the Pounding Grooves releases where there were 2 tracks on one side of the record running next to each other. Then the two tracks ended on the same locked groove at the run-out. Took him all night and umpteen cuts to get that right!! He got the idea from this record I got from a charity shop, it was a horse racing game and you just dropped the needle on the run in and it fell into one of 4 grooves on that side ...so you got a different race every time ( obviously once you`d done all 4 it was a bit boring!) Anyway Jeth I`d still disagree about the weight of the vinyl affecting the depth of cut. The cut is such a small percentage of the depth of the vinyl! Width and clashing is where the probs are. I might see if I can get Lawrie to scrawl down a definition of cut depth and width etc etc. I still engineer a plant very part-time ( just a 7 , 10 and 12") and still love the "black-art" of making a good , flat , listenable tune. It is such a challenge with all the processes ( steam , water, 3 phase leccy , air , vacuum , hydraulics , galvanics, baths etc etc ) that it`s a wonder that it works so well! The junk that some plants try to pawn off is disgraceful these days, I take at least a bit of pride in someones release unlika a lot of others. Better stop there or I`ll start rambling on about mould response times!!! .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: chilli
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 7:51pm
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@spinback.. wake up.... cdj's are purely a trasitory phase, the next gen will be usb/firewire/memorystick based turntable interfaces, cdj's arent going to last and unless you can afford the £1500 a pair in the meanwhile, i'd stick to serato et al until the next thing comes along ------------- Money can't buy you happiness, but it can allow you to be miserable in comfort. |
Posted By: simo69
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 10:15pm
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Tractor Final Scratch.. anyone trialed it yet..??
I used to be a deep house dj with D.I.Y, Smoke Screen and Splosh in the 90's days.. it was THE FREEDOM TO PARTY -- then when the CD came into it's own I found it boring to say the least - I packed in.
But play when asked to do the odd party.. nice ..
A of mate of mine introduced me to Tractor Final Scratch --- WOW.. !!!
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Posted By: psytron
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 9:39pm
it is already here bro, i am using the cdj400 atm :) |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 9:58pm
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i didnt fancy the cdj 400 too gimicky for my tastes, hows it working out for you? ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: psytron
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 7:42am
| i know what u mean but ignoring the gimmics i like the feel of it, it just seems to be accurate like the 1000's /cds are the antichrist |
Posted By: chunkydj
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 12:51pm
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i have a pair of numark cdx's
the feel of them are painfully close to being like the good old black stuff. I hold no grudges for them, they have served me well... so anyone else like em or is it just me? lol |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:10pm
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Yeah i definitely agree. I really do love my CD decks, as i said i have the Axis 9's. I do like vinyl, and i understand people being 'purists' and 'ting, but i think i the sound benefits are by far out weighed by what CD decks have to offer. Mind you, if i was to upgrade, which i dunno if i will, i'd have to get a CD deck with a big jog wheel, not the ones with the itsy things, it just helps for beatmatching and obviously it's a hell of a lot easier to scratch with. Also for the sound men, if you have a decent hifi setup right, you can tell the difference between low and high bit rate MP3s, CD's and vinyls if you listen carefully. But with big PA systems, can you really, honestly tell the difference? I'm just curious, because i don't think you can... I find it funny how some people round here are "vinyl purists" because it sounds better than CD's and MP3's but most of the systems up in Norfolk sound/look rum anyhow. |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 7:22pm
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personaly i cant see myself going for a vynil set up ever again at home of course ill still use it but out at night not having the problems inherent with vynil, weight feedback knacked needles worn crackly records, cdj 800mk2's are bloody marvelous to anyone fancying an upgrade. "I find it funny how some people round here are "vinyl purists" because it sounds better than CD's and MP3's but most of the systems up in Norfolk sound/look rum anyhow." couldn't agree more with nearly all systems you wont be able to tell the difference. (unless its a silly bitrate.) ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 7:28pm
Yep, you certainly can. |
Posted By: Dom
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:01pm
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Easily.
I've played the same track from CD and mp3 player and A/B'd the two and the difference was considerable on PA. More so than I ever notice at home. ------------- "It sounded like a million fire engines chasing ten million ambulances through a war zone and it was played at a volume that made the empty chair beside me bleed." |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 11:45am
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mp3 as a format isnt bad personaly as long as you do it prperly its a lot more sensible than .wav but most mp3 players use even more compressed versions than that ipods sound dull to me so ive mostly stoped using mine odly cheaper ones dont compress stuff but their hardware is dreadfull so they sound usless as well especialy i find on hifi or PA only good for headphones realy, top quality bit rate is the only way to go, IMHO i cant hear a difference in vynil and the cd copies ive made of them (through a mates recording set up admitedly) so ill keep the black stuff at home from now on. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:13am
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i guess i've never really heard someone using a vinyl and a cd of the same song so i can't really say much on that, interesting to note though. sKs01: yeah i agree, i now do the same. i'm gonna get .wavs off beatport or such places, and then burn them to CD's. i think it's probably just easier to be fair. Plus, a thought crossed my mind a few days ago. If you lose a vinyl right, it's going to cost you an amount to replace, expecially if it was quite rare. But if you have a load of .wavs on your computer and some pikey steals your CD bag, then there's really not much point in worrying about it because you can always burn the tracks onto new CDs. |
Posted By: colinmono
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:56am
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I had an interesting chat at the weekend with a guy that has done both CD and Vinyl mastering. I asked him why dropping a vinyl track in the middle of a predominantly CD set sounds wrong, and he explained that there are a number of physical limitations with vinyl that mean you can't get the same sound. High frequencies (above 16Khz) can't be reproduced on vinyl, and you can't use the same level of compression on a vinyl track as you can with CD because the needle would skip. Apparently producers now often use a technique where the compression applied is linked to the kick drum in the track, giving a "pumping" effect that again you can't achieve on vinyl. None of this is to suggest that one format is inherently better than another, but I hadn't heard this before and thought it was useful to know. He did tell me a few other things too but I'm afraid by that time the free wine we were drinking had started to hamper my ability to commit to memory  I do have some tracks that I've bought both on vinyl and in wav format. It would be interesting to rip a vinyl track to wav and compare the ripped waveform to the "pure" wav to see if you can see a difference in the mastering - I'll have a go at some point. |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 12:47pm
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"None of this is to suggest that one format is inherently better than another" it depends on the mastering engineer if they dont know any better or are just lazy it can be a lot esier to master for a cd as their are certain "shortcuts" that can be taken for vynil if they were so inclined to not do thier job properly. ------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |
Posted By: MAGMALMS
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:05pm
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Je vous propose la nouvelle marque de platine Vynile... SYNQ Mieux que les MK2 et plus classe... au niveau prix : 359 euros Hors transport dans mon magasin...Wellcome.
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Posted By: Jhodas
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 7:24am
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i've got vinyl CD and MP3 copies of one or 2 songs. I'd say CD sounds the most accurate, vinyl sounds the most aesthetic (extreme lows and highs are much warmer and nicer on the ear) and MP3 just sounds like mud unless you used 160kbps stereo or above (even 160 can be flaky at the top). http://flac.sourceforge.net/ - FLAC is good, as its lossless if you've got the space. There is a lot to be said for CDs if you have high quality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter - DACs , e.g. with 256x oversampling and decent interpolation algorithms. If I was loaded I'd build a rackmount pc with a pair of 1TB HDs in RAID, rip everything from vinyl at 24bit/96kHz and try to save a bit of space with FLAC. Since I'm not, It's more likely that if I ever start DJing again, i'll be lugging my decks around. ------------- Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter. |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 12:15pm
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Colinmono: the "pumping" sound is probably 'cos of the use of side chain compression. Plus what you said makes me want to stick with CD's even more.
Plus i got them back a week ago, and now that my exams finished, like an hour ago, i can't wait to get home and give them a raz.
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Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 12:19pm
| I agree with you there Jhodas, FLAC is good aswell, i reckon that when the time comes to upgrade to laptop based mixing, i'd prefer to use FLAC as it's small, and lossless. And MP3's, even if they are 320kbps, still have been compressed no matter what and so there will be a loss of some data. Like with everything quality is the key, put sh*t in, you get sh*t out. |
Posted By: jonaglon
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 12:47pm
| phattomherby - if you've just finished your exams you should go straight to the pub and not go home to play with your new cd decks, no matter how good they sound... |
Posted By: phattomherby
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 12:59pm
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A level exams, so not 18, i know that's not an excuse, BUT in my defence, i'm saving myself for next saturday which is the philosphers fair. |
Posted By: sKs01
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 1:08pm
its easy to get carried away with oversampling of bitrates for cd's though in fairness using too low a sample rate makes the sound horrendous to my ears, with everything its a compromise, but if your using cdj's and standard audio cds not mp3 disk  theirs plenty of space on a standard cd for top notch quality and then just buy yourself an external hard drive for all your music, job done especialy with how cheap some of them are theese days.------------- You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With me it's a full time job. Now behave yourself. |