things to do on a sunday
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Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=20007
Printed Date: 26 March 2026 at 11:23pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: things to do on a sunday
Posted By: csg
Subject: things to do on a sunday
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 7:56pm
     build a double punisher! bit of an experiment this - fully dadoed construction makes things a lot easier. Next challenge is to finish bracing off ( replace mdf bits with birch, and add handles - going to spend next sunday on this
sounded good with a community sls920 on top, and a lab4000 driving
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Replies:
Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 8:59pm
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Good stuff! Love them rebates. So, csg, tell us - what's your system going to be? ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 9:23pm
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well, im still weighing up options. I dont need anything big untill easter, my business commitnments untill then are mainly lighting and public address outside
I want a 2 box system which is scalable, and versitile. The twin punisher seems to be a box which has reasonable extention with good speed and punch.
In my brief listening session this afternoon, this box seemed to meet the community sls920 very well.
Im definately going with the sls920 as my mid / high box - the sound quality and projection of this tiny little box is exceptional.
So, by easter very possibly 12 twin punishers with the community's on top
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Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:56pm
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You build is looking good,
Did you seal the gasket?:
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5212 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5212
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 5:46pm
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Unless you've done something since the photos were taken, I doubt there will be a good seal where you've counterbored the holes for the nuts that you've put on the driver side of the baffle. There will be a significant (and possibly damaging) air leak around every one of them. T-nuts probably would've been a better choice... ------------- ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 6:01pm
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well, the drivers were only loaded for a quick low level listen as ive built this out of interest, having hever heard a punisher
I personally can not stand t nuts, and have used this mounting technique many times when building horn loaded enclosures. The studs are threadlocked, and have proven far more relable than t nuts in situations where access is tight and difficult
before the drivers go in properly, both the gasket and baffle rim will be sealed. In addition, i will apply a bead of silicone around the outer rim of the basket / gasket. I am happy sealing the driver in well as im not in the habit of burning out drivers.
out of interest, given the very thick / deep gasket of this driver, how much would you normally compress this down ? to half thickness?
more photos of a more finished item next week
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Posted By: doober
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 8:16pm
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I find the gaskets compress quite easily. You just need to tighten each bolt a couple of turns at a time and keep working your way around them until they fell tight enough to not come undone. The chassis is nearly touching the baffle in my punishers.
Nice looking build, I take it you won't be lifting them alone? ------------- Blahblahblah |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 8:47pm
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cheers for that - i guess as long as the chassis is secure its fine.
on the lifting point, well, yes they aint light, and will be getting heavier - ill be adding some cheeks to the 2 ends to contain handles - 2 layers of 15mm ply which will contain 2 box handles and 2 slit handles without breaking into the volume of the box.
whilst adding weight, they will also improve rigidity, road protection and will also add a little height which is useful when taking just a couple of these out with mid highs as a small hire
the small footprint of these makes them a good van pack, with space on top for smaller bigts and pieces - ive got a lot more work and testing to do before i decide these are the way forward, but early signs are promising!
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Posted By: Marios
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 10:05pm
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Great looking build. We have sls920 for our rig too and they sound great. Amazing with DJs and live bands.
------------- MGS Productions |
Posted By: adambomb
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 10:25pm
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I don't understand building double punishers.. would it not be eaiser to move / stack singles (I thought one of the main benefits of the punisher was it's small size / low weight).
Look good tho.. would like to see plots of a big stack of em.. 12 doubles must get pretty low. ------------- http://www.freespeakerplans.com" rel="nofollow - www.freespeakerplans.com |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 10:44pm
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by building doubles, i can wheel them up my ramp into my van and stand them up - no stacking and lifting. much easier to handle on your own.
On jobs were ive got big stacks, ill always have people around to help, but i usually have to load the van on my own.
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:13pm
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Well, another productive weekend - the bracing is in properly, and ive sorted the handles and speakons.
the handles use a lot of ply, but avoids eating into the cab, and provides a lot of strengh to the cab increasing its "tourability"
this is sounding really good now - the driver has been sealed around its rim with silicone to make sure there are no leaks.
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Posted By: (SoundcreationaudiO)
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 10:47pm
| love the bracing csg, aggresive aesthetics.. suite the punisher nicely. I like the handles also... :) |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:29pm
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cheers - thats 4 sheets of birch sitting there!
i think im going for this bin - seems to be a good 1 box bass solution with the community box on top
so, 11 more to build!
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:52pm
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4 sheets for one double Punisher?!? Seems like a lot. Have you considered alternative drivers? (not sure if I've said this before) I had a play with some simulations when I owned some Punishers which suggested you could change the character of the cab by using some different drivers. eg B&C 18TBX100 would give a flatter response, slightly more efficiency but slightly less output at the bottom end (limited by smaller x-max) |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:57pm
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18tbx100? surely thats a typo???
------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 12:14am
| D'oh! Yeah, I mean 12TBX100. Same motor, smaller cone. |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 12:59am
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Is a lovely build ------------- Gone |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 10:56am
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Cheers Tim, good to see you too. Chris - well, the basic twin plan comes out at exactly 3 sheets, but the end cheeks, and some aditional bracing inside uses another sheet. those end cheeks are 45mm thick!
In addition, this build is fully rebated which means that all the pannels other than the sides are 15mm wider than as shown on the plans. that adds up fast!
well, i know what you are saying regarding the drivers, but im a bit stubborn in this respect. the ciare driver is the only recommended driver in view of the designer, and is exceptionally well built, robust and cost effective.
the bottom end is also very important here as these are going to be used as subs, not with subs. im not prepaired to compromise on extention or low end output, so i think ill stick with the ciare
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 1:28pm
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You are aiming for 12 doubles? Hohoooo i would like to hear that lot. What damage do you think that pile can do? ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:16pm
| Im not aiming, it will happen - just been pricing up birch ply - 50 sheets of 15mm! |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:26pm
Good luck then  We will wait for the bull blast report. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 5:21pm
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Cheers for posting pics, inspiring stuff. Clearly designed after plenty of touring experience which is really useful for me to see having no experience myself :) |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 6:16pm
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yep, i never seem to stop moving kit about, so how things handle and pack are important considerations
this has not turned out that light - approx 105kg, but its a simple and easy 1 man move with a sack truck, as the weight is distributed in a good way. I think ill be able to get all 12 in my iveco, with mid highs, amps, cable and some lighting kit
think it might be slightly over weight though...
Ive had the bin running for a few days now, not at crazy volume, but its certainly bedding in the drivers, and sounding smoother and deeper. It sounds great with all kinds of music crossing at 105hz to the community sls920.
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Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 11:13am
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Nice work,
I like your solution for the handles with the extra thick end panels.
How many watts are you going to feed each Ciare 12.00SW ?
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 2:34pm
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Hello Walt, thanks for your comments - always good to hear from the designer!
Im using one channel of a lab gruppen 4000 or 6400 per twin bin ( same thing, just dependant on stock), so thats 2500w per bin, 1250w per driver
im not a huge fan of running kit too near the edge, so when ive got the time, and have built a few more of these, then im going to spend some time writing dedicated programs for my soundwebs to control the bins when used in different formats / stacks
Im going to incorporate voltage limiters into these programs so that power can be limited to the drivers in a safe way. A little bit of eq and high pass filtering will be incorporated, so once programmed, when ever a rig goes out, the approprate program can be chosen, loaded into the soundweb with all the correct protection, eq, and filtering to ensure the rig is run to its optimum.
just need to find my dummy load now...i seem to remember that people recommend approx 90v per driver - does this ring any bells with anyone?
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Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 3:07pm
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Would equate to 1000w a driver, and the aes test on the 12.00sw spec
sheet says 90V so seems sencible. Possably a bit less as the
driver is in a small closed chamber, aes test was proberbly in a big
vented box wich would alaw higher excursion/better cooling. Can
the soundwebs do RMS voltage limiting or just peak limiters? Sounds like a great idea, would be nice to know excursion vs power level vs frequency for different stack sizes to set limiters / dynamic eqs / HPF, then you could be really safe. Proberbly worth doing if you making 12 boxs, though like you say you dont run close to the edge, it would be nice to know exactly where the edge is. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 9:40pm
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the soundwebs have what i consider the best brick wall limiter ive used - its not designed as a rms voltage limiter, but ive used it as such in the past and it seems to do a reasonable job. The audible action of the limiter is also quite kind if you program a slow release. perhaps not quite as good as an avc, but thats a different animal altogether.
thats a valid point regarding heat, but i suspect that ill end up with a limit of 85v or so. the limiters in my systems are very much last resort, as i have a policy of over specking rig sizes, and all large rigs go out with an engineer who is not afraid of dj's...
Im also interested in using the soundweb programs to deal with coupling effects with different size arrays to ensure a flat response ( in an outside enviroment). nice to stsrt with a fairly flat response
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 3:45am
| Soundweb standalone limiter modules are good, but aren't the ones in the crossover modules completely useless! I've been changing systems over from the crossover limiters to the seperate ones and it makes a huge difference. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 5:20pm
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The crossover limiters dont seem to be as good as the stand alone modules - not sure why, but i use separate limiters, and back the limiters on the crossovers out to +20 dbu. |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 9:36pm
| Exactly what I do nowadays.... |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 8:28am
       next batch in full production now! should have 4 doubles to test next week. Im going to do some proper mesurements of a stack of 2 and 4 doubles, so we should be able to answer questions like " how low do these go" properly
nice to be making proper use of our new unit at last!
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Posted By: eltron
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 8:34am
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It might be hard to tell over the internet and all, but i'm drooling right now. There's something about freshly cut birch ply. Looks awesome, hope they'll sound as nice as they look!  |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 25 November 2008 at 12:45am
coming along very nicely ! 
When is the 12 going to be done... wouldn't mind poping down when 8 are finished
 Be good to hear how low they can really go ------------- Gone |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 6:03pm
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could you tell me what bit your using on that trimmer is it just one of these...  I want a trimmer, gotta make more sense than a massive router... ------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 6:46pm
| yes - on a makita 3703 1/4 inch router. I much prefer small routers in general, and this unit is very well built with a nice small shoe for getting into corners |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 5:48pm
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i know whats on my xmas list :)
------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 9:01am
      
some progress finally - im fitting these in around other projects as im in no rush
Fired up a pair together running from a lab4000 in -5db mls setting, which gives approx 1650w per ch at 2 ohms, which is what the bins are wired as ( 2 4 ohm ciares in parallel)
All i can say is the sound is brutal, drops well and has great speed and punch
the fully rebated construction might be time consuming, but pays dividends in terms of a very tight cab with bery little cab vibration
Im taking these out tonight on a small club hire
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Posted By: WhiteElephantSounds
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 1:01pm
 Build looks amazing!
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Posted By: doober
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 5:51pm
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Nice build!
Do you use/ have you tried wadding in the rear chamber? ------------- Blahblahblah |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 6:38pm
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cheers guys - they are a lot of work but worth it i think
the rear chambers are unwadded - i did briefly try wadding, but the only difference i could hear was a very slight loss of punch. I think walt recomends no wadding - but i might be wrong...
just back from putting them in the club - approx 200 capacity. they sound as good as i hoped they would when i fired them up - tried a bit of electro house, psy, and a little dubstep.
Im currently giving them approx 800w per driver - and despite people recommending 1200 - 1500w per driver, im convinced they will cook with that power. what do people recommend ? Im not a fan of cooking drivers, but the lab gruppen im running them off is on its lowest output setting ( -5db max voltage).
so what do you guys think ? how far do i push them? ( everything is well limited and all the power to the drivers is nice and clean)
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Posted By: Charles_V
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 7:32pm
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You can certainly push them a little more than 800w each. The first 4 that I had where 4ohm bins, and I drove them with a martin audio 4.2. one cabinet on each channel, so 2100w / driver. High pass at 40hz, and ramp it up. (24 db/octave hpf). Have you got the older version 12.00sw in there? The basket looks somewhat shorter.
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 December 2008 at 8:11pm
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Yes, these are the 2004 model - I picked up a batch at a good price.
Ill try pushing a bit harder then - martin 4.2 is a lab4000. Ive got a 24db oct l/r high pass on them at 40hz
All i can say is they are running scary loud already, but ill wheel a pair out into the carpark outside my unit one sunday, and give them a proper bashing. All i can say is that im impressed!
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Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 4:07pm
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Yes indeed 800W is a bit shy.
1200-1500W should be no problem as long as you watch your levels closely and not drive the amplifier into clipping.
They need the big power to make optimal use of the very big x-max of the Ciare 12.00SW driver.
Please note Ciare had some problems with the older series 12.00SW drivers. They did use wrong glue on the magnet, so when the magnet get hot, they shift and trap the coil.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 6:15pm
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well, im going to wheel these out into the car park tomorrow and give them a darn good thrashing...
Interesting about the older drivers Walt - magnet slip can be a bugger. Is it a major problem or an occasional one. If it is a design fault will ciare replace?
Ive got the option on another pile of the older drivers so i will email ciare about this problem and see what they think
I have to hand it to you Walt - these subs are dangerous!
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 6:28pm
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Wonder if it would be interesting to attach a thermocouple probe to the magnet of the Ciare and run the cable out through the hatch. See what temperature the magnet assembly actually gets up to during a long test. Would indicate if it's going to get hot enough to affect the glue at least. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 6:46pm
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Its worth a thought - ive got a decent thermocouple probe around somewhere.
After my first test, at approx 800w per driver platying dubstep for 30 mins, i took a hatch off to see how hot the drivers had got
the magnets were tepid / slightly warm so the coils would have got reasonably warm
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 6:53pm
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Shame there isn't an easy way to measure voice coil temperature. In theory it could be done by measuring any increase in the DC resistance of the coil, knowing the temperature coefficient of the wire etc. I guess you could attach a thermocouple to a voice coil outside of the magnet and make some measurements while applying a signal. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 18 January 2009 at 10:27pm
 
comming on slowly but surely - sounding very solid indeed
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Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 18 January 2009 at 11:10pm
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Maybe install digital thermometer's sensor somewhere into the driver and maybe put some kind of connector next to the speakon connectors in the back, so you could plug in the meter anytime you want? Then sacrifice driver or two to find the temperature where they start frying. |
Posted By: el chupacabra
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 9:10am
| they look brilliant. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 7:59pm
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Hello csg,
They look nice, very nice!
With 4 double bins I expect you already get quite some bass. What are the bass bins to the right of the Punishers? They look like EM Quake??
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 8:18pm
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They are EM Quakes & from what i heard CSG's bins gave them a very good run for there money ------------- Gone |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 8:31pm
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4x Double Punisher about 8 x 50 x 70 x 81.5 = 2282 litres
4x Quake 4 x 120 x 57.4 x 95 = 2617 litres
So the EM Quakes would be a bit bigger in volume but of course its is 8x12" against 4x18".
I would expect about the same performance, the quakes going somewhat lower, the Punishers somewhat louder.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 8:41pm
Sounds about right 
------------- Gone |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 9:05pm
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spot on Walt - the quakes certainly went lower, as you would expect, but i would say the punishers had it on outright spl and punch
Im certainly very pleased with them - im ordering wood tomorrow for the next 8, and the 6 mid highs im building
so thats 32 sheets of 15mm bb birch, and 8 12mm sheets of bb birch. Im glad its got cheaper recently!
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Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 9:30pm
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Your mid highs sound interesting... an original design by any chance? ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 10:28pm
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Yes, and no - i cant take full credit as i have taken ideas from tms2 and res2 type boxes
briefly, it is a box comprising a 15" BPH very similaqr to the tse115, but with a 2 piece flare section, and a mid section using mikey's XT 8 flare. A 1" on a 60 by 40 deg. flare will be hung in the mouth of the 15" section, undeneath the 8".
Drive will be 3 way active, with eq, time alignment and voltage limiting via programs on a soundweb 9088ii.
Using very well braced 12mm birch only, and mostly neo motors, i can get the estimated weight down to 32kg
construction to begin soon, and pics will follow
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Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 10:38pm
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Sounds cool, I wish you luck. If you get the time, I'm sure other members will ask you to post the plans, just a note of caution  ------------- Away on extended leave. |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 11:00pm
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Hi Chris, I'm very interested in your mid-top plans. Mainly because I've been thinking along the same lines for some time and have had the components to built a prototype for about six months or more! However lack of time has gone in the way. I shall be watching with interest and maybe it'll give me a kick up the arse to give my ideas a try. I was thinking about doing a ported horn with minimal front chamber rather than a BPH..... |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 11:10pm
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With the subs underneath, im not sure of the benifit of the ported horn - unless you are going to use the reflex section to control excursion, and therefore distortion, which could make it very interesting
these boxes will be full range, but not bass heavy. Im predicting that they will have usefull output from 60hz - 18KHz.
In conjunction with the subs, they will most likely cross over at around 90 - 100 hz.
the main reason of the project is to produce a box that complements the punisher, but is a 1 man lift for when im putting in smaller systems as dry hires on my own. I have a number of community sls920's and rs220's which are great little boxes, but sound somewhat dry in conjunction with the punnisher, due to their falling output below 200hz.
whilst i could merely build an upper bass enclosure, i feel that a 3 box system is neither desirable, or indeed acceptable in most profesional applications outside club and dance systems.
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 19 January 2009 at 11:42pm
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I was actually considering a 12" on a ported horn.... but then again I was also looking at twin direct radiating 12" or 15" drivers. In terms of the porting, my investigations so far suggest that tuning the port about half an octave below the flare cut-off gives good results so for a mid-top this might be in the 60-70Hz range. I'm actually looking to build a one box mid-top solution for the live gigs I do. I very much like my twin 12"+1.4" direct radiating cabs but I'm finding that the area I'm lacking headroom is in the upper midrange (1-3kHz) for things like snare drums and toms. Hence I would like to insert a dedicated midrange to cover 500-3kHz or so. I would stick with a 1.4" compression driver on top because I need the headroom and want to cross over lower than Turbo/F1 tend to. I'm sure for dance music a 1" is fine though. |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 12:53am
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Horn loaded 8PE21 sounds absolutely ace on midrange. I bought a horn and moulds from Tony.A.S.S., made a second horn and I run them from 400-2100Hz with a direct radiating 15" below and DE250 above. I'd imagine Mykey's horns, especially with the phase plug, will do the job too. If I had the storage space, I'd build some horn loaded 15s to go from 120-380ish, as this is the weak point in the system - shown up by the fact that the low mid limits before anything else. Then again, I might just build them anyway :) Probably should finish the rest of the system first though - still all bare ply :( ------------- ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 5:53am
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Hello csg,
Nice to hear you still like the Punisher design after comparing them with the EM Quake. One should not forget the EM Quake to be one of the most efficient 18" horn in the world. They have a longer horn and therefore go deeper, but when both designs are driven at maximum power I would expect a double Punisher to be about 3-4dB louder between 50-100Hz.
When you have finished you next batch of double bins, how many doubles do you have?
Also did you tray stacking them on the long sides? I feel like that is a more natural way of stacking these bins. Then could put 3 tops on them. So 4 subs to 3 tops should be good for bass heavey music.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 8:15am
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Hello Walt
The next build batch wil be 8 doubles, so in total the system will comprise of 2 stacks of 6 double punishers with 3 mid highs on top, with 4 flown comunity sls920's as delays
the system will be used for a number of 2500 people dance music events i have booked in this year in a 40m diameter circus tent
In time, if the mid highs work out well, i may well replace the sls920's with more of my own boxes
cheers
chris
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Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 9:09am
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Chris how you thought about the load in your van ? ? I've been pulled twice now and been checked for ''over loading''
A double cabinet must weigh 100kg ? ........... ?
( Still begging her for the BSS  )------------- Gone |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 6:03pm
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Hello csg,
I think I would stack 4 double punishers each side (long side to the ground) with three tops on it. And then a center cluster of 4 double bins.
I think that way you get a more even bass on the dance floor. Also your tops are then 200cm of the ground so sound will travel over the people instead of being absorbed by people standing before the tops.
Best regards,
Walt
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 20 January 2009 at 6:19pm
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Hello Walt
Unfortunately it is not possible to use a centre cluster for these jobs as there is only a 1200mm security corridor between the crowd barrier and the stage. I would prefer a central cluster to reduce the power alley effect, but its not possible on these jobs
The main stacks will be 6 subs stacked on their sides to give 3m hight, with a splay / angle board to carry the 3 mid / highs on the top
In these tents, you need as much hight as possible so you can angle the mid highs down to reduce slap and reflections from the roof skin as much as possible
these pics show last years system so you can see what i mean regarding angling down. The difference it makes is considerable
cheers
chris
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Posted By: tommysb
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 11:00pm
| Could you stack the centre cluster under the stage? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 11:07pm
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Unfortunately not - the stage used is a fold down trailer unit, and even if it was possible, rumble issues when doing live acts would certainly be a problem ( although i guess they could be run from an aux, and therefore turned down)
the only possibility might be puting a stack of 4 at the back of the stage near the dj platform - might keep the dj's quiet as well
picked up the mid horns a few days ago from Robbo - Mikey's xt8 units. superb qualiry fibreglass - my only complaint is that they are really heavy!
better than nasty resonances i guess
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Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 23 January 2009 at 11:49pm
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Chris idea .... Are we able to fly the mid-tops @ the front as well ?
I guess what i'am asking is ... does the tuss end flush with the stage ( front ) ------------- Gone |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 24 January 2009 at 9:50am
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Not really - there will be a truss at the front, but not at a suitable position for the stacks
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 9:44pm
time for some new mid highs to go with the punishers....
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Posted By: nomis
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 10:12pm
| nice!how high do you hope to take the bph? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 10:34pm
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At the moment, the testing unit is playing 91 - 247hz on the 15, 264 - 3750 on the 8, and 4k up on the 1
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 12:01am
| So they're an Xtro-mini? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 12:29am
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If you like - i can lift this on my own onto a twin punisher, but it still has output to keep up wiht 1-2 twin punishers depending on music type
bit of work to do yet - lining rear chamber + sections of the bph flare with eggcrate foam to improve low mid reponse etc
3 way active drive with full time alignment of all components
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Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 2:03am
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Looking good CSG, is that an eminence kappalite? Whats the mid horn, one of mikeys? Or your own design? Good idea cable tieing the cab to the chassis, think i will be doing it in the future, better than messing about with a hammer and cable clips in a tight gap like i normally do. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 8:53am
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the horn is mikey's xt8 - from Robbo. the only adaptation i made is to add 4mm between the driver and phase plug ( the plug was just fouling the cone of the b&c pe21) and sealing the whole thing up with high modulus silicone.
very well made horns, my only complaint is the weight!
the 15 is a kappalite 3015 lf. 3 inch coil and a very light cone so plays a little higher like the older turbo drivers used in the tms 2/3 which played to around 350hz
more bracing to add today - the downside of using 12mm birch ( for lightness), but its getting very rigid and resonance free now.
the 1" is a rcf neo line array driver with a non metallic diaphram. very sensitive, very nice sounding unit, weiging 800 grams!
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Posted By: 4D
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 9:54am
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top turn......  ------------- DMZ. "The bass was intense. Girls were literally running up to stand next to the subs" |
Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 10:12am
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Great build there CSG love to see a fully loaded pic |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 10:17am
| Cheers - more pics up later |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 February 2009 at 7:07pm
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getting there slowly - sounding pretty good now, ive sorted time domain issues and the voicing of the vocal band. just a few bracing issues to deal with in the back of the bph section, other than that its pretty dead
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Posted By: Heathrow_B_line
Date Posted: 01 February 2009 at 7:25pm
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i cant see that 15" sounding nice playing upto 250hz
how does it sound? ------------- Produce a killer sound. Take no prisoners. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 February 2009 at 7:27pm
| turbo / fk1 do it dont they... |
Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 01 February 2009 at 9:14pm
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Me likes, me likes! Would love to have a listen. How do you find the XT8 behaves at the top end? I've said it before but I should really have a go myself, the bits are all sitting around staring at me! |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 01 February 2009 at 9:33pm
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the xt8 does fine at the top end - currently its comming out at 3.3khz, with the 1" comming in at 3.5hz, both 24db/oct. L.R.
the little 1" rcf im using is stunning. I may well look at fitting them to my older community rs220 that dont have the newer vhf100 drivers - those old eminence 2002's are not good!
not finished yet by any means, but they will work, and work well. i spent this afternoon comparing them to some large celestion cxi tops which are 15" reflex, horn loaded 6.5 and 1", and ive already got the xt8 and 1" sounding cleaner and smoother
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Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 7:34am
| Being lazy and not wanting to search - whats the HF horn? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 8:40am
| eminenence lt250 with a rcf nd1411-m on the back |
Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 9:13am
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Ta !
Looking good - have you given any thought to flying the cabs yet?
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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 9:40am
| ill get to that soon - ive got some aeroquip tracks and internal brackets in the lockup, and loads of flying rings for them. Due to the design of the cab they would be easy to retrofit |
Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 10:08am
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Also a pair of big T-nuts in the side would allow you do do a 'yoke' same style as a Res2 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 1:48pm
will be nice in a black spatter?
  how low are you running them? that should have plenty of clearance, I don't understand? on the phase 'ring' you can see a raised piece, is this where you are talking about, or the rear of plug?if you have added 4mm this won't help matters
you can slowly/carefully take that lip down on the phase ring with sandpaper for a clearance ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
csg wrote:Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 1:53pm
 ?------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 10:03pm
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Hello Mikey
The fouling issue seems to be contact between the inner part of the cone near the dustcap
it is really just mighty close - the cone is not pushed back from its resting position, but can not move forwards either. The driver is running from approx 250hz - 3.3k.
By adding 4mm, i meant that i have added a 4mm spacer inbetween the cone and plug, which has sorted the problem. The space between the cone and plug is still minimal
compared with other similar horns, and does not seem to affect the sound.
Very interesting time today running comparrisons between celestion cxi series cabs ( 3 way, 15/6/1") and Bespokes new 15" / 2" cab ( thanks for bringing that Tim, very nice little cab)
Got this sounding very tidy now, and so far by carefull gain adjustments between the drivers, correct delays and crossover points, i have not needed to apply any eq at all
so, full steam ahead with building the rest of the cabs!
The em quakes seem to be very depenant on position / performance. in their first position against a wall and on the floor, they sounded like a bag of nails.
when we moved them to the position in the pic, they were much happier. they drop lower than the punnishers, but the puns make a far better 1 box bass solutuon with greater output, punch and speed. for my purposes, i dont need to go below 40. as far as most people are concerned, 40 is really low, and far lower than most pa systems reach effectively
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Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 10:34pm
| Very nice build Chris---Told you the horns were good, but like Mykey I am a bit suprised about the cone slightly fouling the phase bung as we tried a pair with the same drivers and never had a problem--very close but not touching at all---I will have to come and have a listen when you have the rig completely finished---cheers--John. |
Posted By: Bespoke
Date Posted: 02 February 2009 at 10:45pm
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Chris thanks again for today ( dinner,soundweb demo,cabinet testing etc )
Firstly what a lovely build again and 2nd I WANT YOUR TOP END
 I loved the high-mid and hf which blow me away ....... Your punnishers are very fast and drop quite low but would really like to hear them outside with 4 a side then i think they could really come alive.
Now back to the tops.... I like a lot and if it wasnt for the fact that i have had all mine made we would be talking
 I think the low mid sounded a bit better on our cabinets but then again they are reflex so you would get this anyway but after 250/350k yours REALLY come alive and again THAT TOPEND COMES IN WOW
 Dont go giving these plans away Chris you have an A++++ cabinet there and is way up there with the Res2 ( i would buy yours over a Res2 anyday )
------------- Gone |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 03 February 2009 at 2:29am
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I don't understand this, I'll take some pictures
there should be plenty clear even if you are crossing @ 250
I'm just woundering if you have 2 that my guys could have put deeper rear phase plugs?
this will do my head in now ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 03 February 2009 at 4:12pm
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Different gaskets on the pe21 mabie? Just an idea.
------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 03 February 2009 at 4:31pm
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The gasket on the 8PE21s which I've got are all the same and when rear mounted, they will compress until the chassis comes into contact with the baffle. On that basis, they should be pretty consistent, as the chassis are made with a reasonable degree of accuracy.
------------- ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US. |