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My BassHorn VS Martin WSX

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=20222
Printed Date: 29 March 2024 at 6:02am
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Topic: My BassHorn VS Martin WSX
Posted By: Amano
Subject: My BassHorn VS Martin WSX
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 5:34am
Hello! I'm from Russia.
I designed own basshorn 2х15" on EighteenSound 15lw1401 drivers.
I conceived to perfect 40hz basshorn WSX with more compact size and bigger length of horn to get more SPL in 40Hz with smaller displacement of diaphragm.
I think i got it... Wink

My plans and graphs:
http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Amano_BassHorn_VS_dual_WSX.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Amano_BassHorn_VS_dual_WSX.htm

While this construction is not made.
I have not so much time yet to build it. And i'd want to see your comments or your built.
Wink





Replies:
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 6:41am
at last! someone who's done it hmself and not copiedHug

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 6:51am
you need to set ANG in 2.0 x pi

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 8:24am
also that looks like an old version of HR?

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: biotec
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:05am
794mm wide is too much in my opinion. You will not get this cab through many single doors.

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me so horny, me love you long throw.


Posted By: davey t
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:29am
Good work! the plans and models look good.

but i agree with the above comments..

1) you should always model in 2pi
2) Your box is shape isn't practical. One of the dimensions needs to be <70cm.


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Minirig portable soundsystem movement


Posted By: davey t
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:31am
oh, and check the warnings in hornresp. Your atc is too low and wont model correctly. 

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Minirig portable soundsystem movement


Posted By: boycey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 10:17am
looks cool, why not singles?

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the only thing more dangerous than a person who doesn't give a f**k is a person who gives a sh*t.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:20pm
Ok... I see my troubles..
My new version of basshorn will be 1x15 with 2.8m horn and 5000cm of mouth..
Graphs looks much better..
See you tomorrow... ;)


Posted By: tommysb
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 1:29pm
How practical is a small throat on something like that? Will the compression ratio be too high?
 
 


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Amano Amano wrote:

Ok... I see my troubles..
My new version of basshorn will be 1x15 with 2.8m horn and 5000cm of mouth..
 
Not many 15" drivers have the Xmax, BL, or Cone properties to handle 2.8m horn, from 40-80, at > 500W input.
 
What did you intend to use ? 


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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: biotec
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:28pm
How about the RCF LF15N401?
 
THIELE - SMALL PARAMETERS
Resonance frequency Fs 34 Hz
DC resistance Re 5.1 Ohm
Mechanical factor Qms 5.8    
Electrical factor Qes 0.23    
Total factor Qts 0.22    
BL factor BL 27.8 T - m
Effective Moving Mass Mms 158 gr
Equivalent Cas air load Vas 160 liters
Effective piston area Sd 0.091 m2
Max. linear excursion (mathematical) Xmax 8.8 mm
Voice - coil inductance @ 1kHz Le1k 2.5 mH
Half-space efficiency Eff 2.64 %


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me so horny, me love you long throw.


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:33pm
Man says he's designed it around an 18sound.

Am interested to see a redesign - as it is there's a number of problems with the simulation as has been pointed out. Looks like an old version of hornresp as well.

Where did you find that WSX sim?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 3:14pm
And why he must calculate in 2pi?

As i understand calculating in 0,5pi is like getting a freq response for corner loading one box or for a cluster of 4 boxes. By my understanding one should always use at least 4 horns in a cluster to gain the full potential of the horn box (ie making a big enough mouth).


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by biotec biotec wrote:

How about the RCF LF15N401?
 
Yes that does look like a "horny driver"...
 
Looks like it would stay in control, even if in fairly large chamber as well.
 
Seems a bit stiff though...


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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

And why he must calculate in 2pi?

As i understand calculating in 0,5pi is like getting a freq response for corner loading one box or for a cluster of 4 boxes. By my understanding one should always use at least 4 horns in a cluster to gain the full potential of the horn box (ie making a big enough mouth).
because you'd be dissapointed
 
and people build one prototype and not 4
 
 
imagine testing 1 cab and not seeing the result you wanted to see or have seen on your 0.5 x pi graph
 
atleast in 2.0 x pi you can see the exact result and know that 4 will be even better
 


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:23pm
Mykey,

Anyone designing a horn box should be aware of that at the first place :-)


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:29pm
then i don't understand your question?

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

And why he must calculate in 2pi?

As i understand calculating in 0,5pi is like getting a freq response for corner loading one box or for a cluster of 4 boxes. By my understanding one should always use at least 4 horns in a cluster to gain the full potential of the horn box (ie making a big enough mouth).


0.5 pi is radiating out of an infinite granite corner basically.
1pi is radiating out of a wall-floor transition.
2pi is radiating out of an infinite baffle.

In a big enough stack (not 4 bins), the middle ones will be sort of radiating into 1pi.

It really depends on the scale - if you zoom out and out and out that same stack would really be simply radiating into an infinite baffle of the world. If you zoom out so the earth is tiny, the speaker would be in full space.

But you already knew all of that.

Hornresp has the ability to model multiple cabinets, the universal standard for modeling sub for pro sound is 2pi as you rarely get a place that allows you to radiate out of a corner. do remember that lots of material is basically invisible at the operating range.

The question of how many horn boxes to use is down to the design. The 1850 was designed to be used in stacks of 4 - if it was on hornresp I would design it looking at plots for 4 cabinets. PA is all about compromise with bass horns. Horn length and mouth area increases as you stack cabinets - but this is no substitution for radiation out of a corner - while they have similar effects of lowering apparent f3 etc, they aren't the same thing and shouldn't be confused. The 186 on the other hand was optimized for two bins.


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 4:04am
RCF LF15N401 is very good driver for it! Thumbs Up

I redesigned new versions of my basshorn. Look at the page:
http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc2.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc2.htm

Theese versions much bigger.. Ouch


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 4:34am
my friend you really must upgrade your Hornresponse, you may also find that your charts may change
 
looking at the new drawing......you have a letter box throat right? letter box throat is fine if you have plenty of space in front of it, you don't have enough space
 
the strain on your driver would be immense, this gap is too small, the cone would be fighting against its self, instead of pushing air down the horn, I reckon, that the driver at full power, would destroy itself in less than 10 mins
 
you aslo need to put a piece of wood (stopper) at the front edge of the throat when using a letterbox design, to stop the sound from going the opposite way
 
Tommysb was bang on, look what he said last post 1st page
 
http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/ - http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dmcbean/
http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20240 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20240


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:15am
Is meant that in throat for diffuser necessary to do deepenning..

http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc3.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc3.htm

The version 19.40 of Hornresp looks wrong.. It Calculates wrong SPL - Sound pressure does not correspond to power..


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:22am
For example... Calculating in Hornresp 19.40 of my basshorn with 2.83volts and 0.5xPI ANG:
http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc3.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc4.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc4.htm

I don't believe that it can give 113db 1w/1m from 50-300Hz! Confused

But displacement is the same as in older version of Hornresp..


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:58am
the area in red is to small, this needs to be deeper, the blue marking should be a solid piece across the width of the cabinet
 
http://imageshack.us">
[URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img410/easycapture1dj4.png/1/][IMG]


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 8:48am
Model it using offset driver if you're doing it this way. Try to keep compression low as mykey has said when doing this sort of thing. Otherwise you may be victim to flapping cone disease.

I have the latest version of hornresp and have none of the problems you have - will have a go later - newer versions of hornresp have corrected bass response as you may find. It's not wrong, just more accurate - remember what 0.5 is?

And why are you still calculating in 0.5pi?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 8:50am
http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc5.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/Doc5.htm

What do you think about that? Wink

2 Deadbeat, I calculated only for comparison..
I understand, that 2xPI is normal conditions to play, but i'm trying to test a configuration with different ANG to get optimal parameters. Smile


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 1:23pm
That is exactly the horn i am going to build Smile
Mine is with a 18" driver.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 2:15pm
its like a stretched out 186 horn



Posted By: tommysb
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

the area in red is to small, this needs to be deeper, the blue marking should be a solid piece across the width of the cabinet
 


SO mykey, are you saying that a throat like this will put too much stress on the driver?




Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 6:51pm
I would guess with this plan one side of the driver is always gonna tear as the driver isn't loaded evenly


Posted By: mstep77
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 7:22pm
Amano - Nice design mate.  Always good to see people trying different things Smile
My ideas - If you intend to use it in a stack of four then model in 0.5 pi if on its own then 2 pi.
I would say that a single version would be more manageable and more importantly, it will fit through doors!

I would tend to agree with other people that the throat is too small.  The start of the horn is the throat area which is the SMALLEST point after the throat chamber.  I.e. the right hand edge of mykey's diagram above (if its a letterbox design).

Anyways, nice work, get a prototype built!

Matt


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by mstep77 mstep77 wrote:

Amano - Nice design mate.  Always good to see people trying different things Smile
My ideas - If you intend to use it in a stack of four then model in 0.5 pi if on its own then 2 pi.
I would say that a single version would be more manageable and more importantly, it will fit through doors!

I would tend to agree with other people that the throat is too small.  The start of the horn is the throat area which is the SMALLEST point after the throat chamber.  I.e. the right hand edge of mykey's diagram above (if its a letterbox design).

Anyways, nice work, get a prototype built!

Matt


Where is your reasoning for this?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: doober
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 9:38pm
Quote from mr McBean:

Imagine a loudspeaker positioned in a corner, but not touching the floor or either of the two walls. Now assume that the floor and the walls are three mirrors. Looking into the mirrors you will see seven images of the actual loudspeaker. One loudspeaker has been turned into eight, hence the use of the term "eighth-space" or Pi/2 steradians to describe a corner location. Acoustically, provided that the dimensions of the radiator and the distance from the walls are small compared to the wavelength, then one speaker radiating into eighth-space is the same as eight speakers radiating into free space. Once again, this can be confirmed using Hornresp.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

David

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11032&PN=12 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11032&PN=12

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Blahblahblah


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by doober doober wrote:

Quote from mr McBean:

Imagine a loudspeaker positioned in a corner, but not touching the floor or either of the two walls. Now assume that the floor and the walls are three mirrors. Looking into the mirrors you will see seven images of the actual loudspeaker. One loudspeaker has been turned into eight, hence the use of the term "eighth-space" or Pi/2 steradians to describe a corner location. Acoustically, provided that the dimensions of the radiator and the distance from the walls are small compared to the wavelength, then one speaker radiating into eighth-space is the same as eight speakers radiating into free space. Once again, this can be confirmed using Hornresp.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

David

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11032&PN=12 - http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11032&PN=12


Exactly what i've been saying - it seems that there is mass confusion regarding the difference between this and a stack of 4 bins.


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: everdark
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 6:45pm

great development, comrade.

but i'm afraid it's too big bitch to carry. 

i'm selling out my wsx's crap to build a compact rig as my backbone demands!



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music is the only language I really know


Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 8:10pm

what are you going to replace them with Everdark??

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CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS


Posted By: everdark
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 9:01pm

first i  want to build 3-4 singles of different designs including selenium double 18 horn (divided) and something like hog but 15 inches maximum.

i like how thiis design sounds also but you need at least 16 to make sense

of course it would be hard to outperform wsx which i adore for excellent depth and pressure...



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music is the only language I really know


Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 9:07pm
no dont lose the wsx!!! not till youve tried her with the old xtro lol

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me so horny me love you long throw
horn loaded for her pleasure


Posted By: everdark
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 9:38pm
xtro is also in my plans for autumn

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music is the only language I really know


Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 9:44pm
those little bins look interesting what are they 12"....?

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CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 10:26pm
ты опять дома собрался пилить такой громоздкий ящик???

p.s. - upper photo - projekt Maks Peshkov and Frends (Jms)....


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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: everdark
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 10:45pm
12LW1400 based horn made by moscow guys. i love how they fit my trunk and their pressure))))

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music is the only language I really know


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 3:42am
Originally posted by H... H... wrote:

I would guess with this plan one side of the driver is always gonna tear as the driver isn't loaded evenly
no, the driver is loaded evenly because it's a letter box throat, I'm talking about little volume there is in front of the throat
 
Look at the problems people have with the punisher, the 'round' opening in front of the driver is too close to the facing pannel, they tear if over pushed
 
this design is a letter box throat and the volume in front looks even less than the punisher
the pressure would be too much
 
if you like throwing money away on drivers then bulid it
 
the graph looks very good, but will the drivers last
 
back to the drawing board I would say  


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 4:00am
Originally posted by tommysb tommysb wrote:

Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

the area in red is to small, this needs to be deeper, the blue marking should be a solid piece across the width of the cabinet
 


SO mykey, are you saying that a throat like this will put too much stress on the driver?


a letter box throat is fine, read above

 

all though Amano's is a little small (don't ask me , ask his wife), that wasn't my concern, it was the area in front of the throat 

 



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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: H...
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 6:52am

Opps sorry Mykey didn't read through the post - yeah ze letterbox would load the cone evenly - But your right on the thoat, it may as well have teeth on it 'cause its gonna EAT drivers!



Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 10 October 2008 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by everdark everdark wrote:

first i  want to build 3-4 singles of different designs including selenium double 18 horn..

 
i seperated a selenium double 18" horn into a single.  an easy build and good quality sound. i used one in a small pa. high passed it at 45hz and it hit very hard indeed.   i always wanted to build 3 more and see what happened.  with one it would tickle your nostrils at 10 meters outside. 


Posted By: nineleaves
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 11:09am
respect..
i like to see people having a proper crack at designing their own cabs (with afew goals in mind at that) :)

haven't had time to read all of this post to see whats happened since page 1..

tho yes, definitely give dimensions a little consideration.. as you may not find double fire doors everywhere you go; even if the organizers adamant they have them ;) ..also watch out for weight; upto 80kg in one cab is manageable between two people safely ..100kg+ gets f*cking stupid ;) :)


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

ты опять дома собрался пилить такой громоздкий ящик???

p.s. - upper photo - projekt Maks Peshkov and Frends (Jms)....

нет... есть цех...

Задача - создать уличный Саб, играющий ниже 40 Гц., с давлением не ниже, чем WSX.

Конфигурация Джефа Робинсона,- сомнительна, в своей эффективности, так как ход диффузора, на частотах ниже 35 и 50 Гц. - слишком высок, что значительно сократит список динамиков, подходящих для данного оформления.

Ciare достать, как я понимаю, довольно сложно.

Еще вопрос назрел, как моделировать скуперы в Hornresp!? Понравилась конфигурация by Maks Peshkov and Frends. Tongue

 

How to model something like SCOOPERs in HORNRESP? exist examples?



Posted By: mstep77
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 11:53am
check out the scoop forum, it has threads on scoop design and hornresp inputs


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Amano Amano wrote:

Originally posted by TDA-Audio TDA-Audio wrote:

ты опять дома собрался пилить такой громоздкий ящик???

p.s. - upper photo - projekt Maks Peshkov and Frends (Jms)....

нет... есть цех...

Задача - создать уличный Саб, играющий ниже 40 Гц., с давлением не ниже, чем WSX.

Конфигурация Джефа Робинсона,- сомнительна, в своей эффективности, так как ход диффузора, на частотах ниже 35 и 50 Гц. - слишком высок, что значительно сократит список динамиков, подходящих для данного оформления.

Ciare достать, как я понимаю, довольно сложно.

Еще вопрос назрел, как моделировать скуперы в Hornresp!? Понравилась конфигурация by Maks Peshkov and Frends. Tongue

 

How to model something like SCOOPERs in HORNRESP? exist examples?



Basically, all you do is omit the rear chamber (leave the values as zero) and use combined response. It is in the hornresp help file.

Also see: http://freespeakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=548 - http://freespeakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=548
It links to links to links.


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 8:33am
2 mykey
How to find out an optimal compression ratio at the throat for 15lw1401?
Maybe.. experimental ways?.. :?


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 8:35am
exists formula?


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 9:50am
Like i said, it wasn't so much the throat, it was the area in front of it

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Amano Amano wrote:

2 mykey
How to find out an optimal compression ratio at the throat for 15lw1401?
Maybe.. experimental ways?.. :?


Try the classic Leach horn math (see AES papers linked elsewhere on the site - will find the link).

EDIT:

Are you talking about RLHs or FLHs?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 9:32am
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\Задача - создать уличный Саб, играющий ниже 40 Гц., с давлением не ниже, чем WSX.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

только при этом ты хочишь получить ящик размером с тумбочку...
ты посмотри какие габариты у подобных кабинетов...

да и еще - такие сабы как правило не для улицы делают - небьтся конструктора в туровых апаратах за эти частоты... т.к. знают их цену  а самое главное что неэтот диапазон самый важный (информативный) в басовом звене....

а вот в клубных системах (стационар) - есть такие решения но их габариты в несколько раз больше твоего плана.... (а самое главное какой там размер рта!)


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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 3:54pm
ok?


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 3:57pm
LOL

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 7:31pm
TDA.
How did they sound compared to the WSX?


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 7:46pm
What babelfish spews out LOLLOLConfused

\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ the task - of creating street [Sab], which plays is below 40 Hz., with the pressure not are lower than WSX. \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ only in this case you [khochish] to obtain box by size utility cabinet… you look what overall sizes in similar offices… yes even still - such [saby] as a rule not for the street make - [nebtsya] of designer in Turov apparatuses for these frequencies… t [k] know their price and most main that [neetot] range very important (informative) in the bass component…. and it is here in the club systems (hospital) - are such solutions but their overall sizes several times of more than your plan…. (but most important what there size of mouth!)


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 8:49pm
Exactly what i had in mind Thumbs Up

LOL


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 3:22am

http://photofile.ru/photo/amanosempai/135165722/xlarge/138250109.jpg - http://photofile.ru/photo/amanosempai/135165722/xlarge/138250109.jpg

http://speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20222&PN=7 -

Size like WSX, but it is more simple to make..


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:01am

Hi Amano!

 

Is that driver offset to the throat?

 

Try to imagine a very small gap, and a coil/capton has to fit snug in that gap, now it has to move backwards and forwards at a very fast pace, any non-linear action will burn out the coils fast

 

Efficient drivers have even smaller gaps like the PD1850, this is why the PD1850 has a monster double spider, to keep the "PISTON ACTION" linear

 

There has to be even pressure on the cone face for perfect linear motion

 

You might be lucky and find its ok, but do you really want to take that chance? 

 

The chamber is also small; this will have a very good ‘SPRING EFFECT’ on the cone. This may not help matters with an offset throat

 

Do you have a print of the SPL Graph for this box?

 



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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:22am
If you can improve on that throat area.....
 
I think this could be a very good "TURBO" sounding box, as in fast and punchy, quite efficient
 
EDIT:Confused  just noticed something, what have you taken as your throat area?
 
If its the point were it says 75mm, this will be the throat @ 403.5 cm2, if you have taken the throat area as 228 x 228, if its square?  this will be 519.84 cm2 and is larger than the 403.5cm2
 
the thing is, it looks like you have 2 throats? have you taken this into accountConfused
 
you have the volume in front of the cone, plus the cone area, to have a throat it needs to be smaller than the cone size, for instance an average cone size for a 18'' is roughly 1200cm2,  unless you are using the circular cuttout as the throat! and in this case you're not.
 
so lets look at this.........
 
cone area = 1200cm2 + an average 4.5 litres of volume in the cone
then we have a smaller area of half the size?   519.84 cm2
then we have some more volume in front of the 519.84cm2, then an even smaller area that I think you have used as the throat area = 403.5cm2 ?
 
1200cm2  -   519.84cm2  -  403.5cm2
 
how much have you calculated as throat chamber? you have 2 chambers in front of the cone/driverConfused
 
just call me eagle eye from now on!
 


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 8:04am
.... or you could call me "Mr Twothroats"
 
Hello! my name is Mr Twothroats...
 
and have you got two throats Mr?
 
....NO!... thats just my name


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Robbo
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:51am
The 2x15" cabinet shown on page one of this post is basically a shrunk down Martin Audio S bin---and you have exactly the same problems with it as the original Martin design---IT WILL NOT GO THROUGH MOST DOORWAYS so it is not a practical design as you would never be able to get it into most venues---the single 15 version should be quite nice though.
In the single 18" horn shown above, it needs loading to fire through a slot in the baffle board the same as Martin design and the slot must be centred on the cone dia as the off centre loading as shown will cause cones to disintegrate in that cabinet design/ 


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 9:28pm


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:24am


Posted By: wafflesomd
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:41am
Well at least the chamber got bigger.

Horn looks smaller though.


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:07am
Amano, can you give us 1w1m please

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:38am
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

Amano, can you give us 1w1m please

1w1m 2pi:



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:47am
Not bad, from memory it looks better than the WSX

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:52am

Amano! your throat would be 597cm2 not 420cm2

so this would aslo shorten the length of the horn



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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 7:56am
......will also give you a bigger throat chamber

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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 9:06am
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

Amano! your throat would be 597cm2 not 420cm2

so this would aslo shorten the length of the horn



I don't understand! Confused Why? explain me please!
Lets try to imagine horn like this:

...and where is the point of throat? X1 or maybe X2? Shocked
My horn is the same....


Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:15pm

where it says 111mm and not 78mm

lets imagine your lungs are the rear chamber and the throat is your throat

your lungs are have a 'large' volume of air, and the air from them has to get sqeezed through your 'small' throat

The area that is the large hole in front of the driver (baffle cut out) is 1250 cm2 or there abouts? which is larger than 111 x 538 =  597cm2, so this becomes your throat
not the area that says 78 x 538 = 420
 
you also have 4.5 litres of volume in the cone it self, plus the area in front of the driver (throat chamber) before it gets to the throat, this all becomes the throat chamber, so you also have to take that into account
 
I'll check if you have added this on
 
I said the point that says 111 because your sketch of the X1 and X2 is a bit extreme, but it would be X2, if your drawing wasn't so wide at that point


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:27pm
just checked and I don't know how you have come to 11 litres for throat chamber
 
This is what you have to put in now for throat chamber
 
4.5 litres for inside cone and baffle (rough estimate) then you have to put in 19.28 litres for the area in front of the driver, these both being the throat chamber
 
111mm x 538mm x 646mm = 38.57 litres the divide by 2 = 19.28 + 4.5 = 23.78 litres
  
you have 11 litresErmm
 
atleast  alzheimer's won't kick in early for meSmile


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Centauri
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by mykey mykey wrote:

where it says 111mm and not 78mm


And how do you arrive at that conclusion?  The throat would be the smallest point between the driver and mouth where there is positive expansion towards the mouth, which would be the 78mm point (or arguably even further towards the pointy end from this).  As the driver is loaded into the side of the horn and is a small distance from the end in relation to the wavelengths involved, the effective length of the horn would also be right up into the top corner.

@Amano : how is any of these designs easier to build than the WSX?


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:03pm
I can't see any designs. photofile.ru ain't working either. Could someone put these on mediafire or something, I'd like to have a look.

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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 23 October 2008 at 4:01am
Originally posted by Deadbeat Deadbeat wrote:

I can't see any designs. photofile.ru ain't working either. Could someone put these on mediafire or something, I'd like to have a look.


2 designs:
http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/like_wsx.htm - http://amanosempai.narod.ru/web/like_wsx.htm




Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 4:58am
Look at new version of my horn...Wink






Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 7:03am
very nice amono
throats small?


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......just all them hanging there like giant bananas.



Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 9:25am
Yes. It's 414 sq cm... and TC volume is ~19 litres. Length of horn ~2m. It's longer than an original WSX horn length.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:20pm


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:28pm
Clap Congratulations.

Real nice double 18 push-push.

One thing you might want to do is consider the angle on the drivers.

No rear chamber?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: mstep77
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:31pm
nice design mate, that is gonna be seriously loud.
One thing to note with designs with two drivers in (assuming they are wired in parallel and are 8R) is that the box will have an overall impedance of 4R (as I'm sure you know) so in hornresp you should set the input voltage to 2V instead of 2.83V to give the true 1w/1m reading.  obviously the box will have twice the power handling though Smile

Best regards,

Matt


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Deadbeat Deadbeat wrote:

Clap Congratulations.

Real nice double 18 push-push.

One thing you might want to do is consider the angle on the drivers.

No rear chamber?

Yes. There is no rear chamber.. Drivers are in open air... Wink



Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:44pm

I think, it can be a good change of LABs... Much lower bass...

It looks like dual inverted scoops whith a small throat chamber...



Posted By: wafflesomd
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:47pm
Doesn't look like the lower driver would come out after its put in.


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 6:57pm
In december i'll try to build this one....  and i'll compare it with WSX, dual WSX at same power lever... Tongue


Posted By: tommysb
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:01pm
What happens to the excursion at higher powers?


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:18pm
At power level of 650Watt per driver excursion at 40Hz is +-6,2mm, at 62hz is +-6,8mm..

It's possible to change the driver.... putting RCF LF18N401 Wink



Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Amano Amano wrote:

I think, it can be a good change of LABs... Much lower bass...

It looks like dual inverted scoops whith a small throat chamber...



This box can not go as low as a lab sub. It is short for about 1,2m of horn length.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:56pm
~2.1 meters! ...


Posted By: Deadbeat
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 7:59pm
Lab? You will have to beat this in 2pi Wink.

And they're using 2xLAB12s.


Your horn is a nice design. However, keep this in mind: Stacking the horns side by side so a tunnel is formed with the open back may change quite a bit in terms of acoustic impedance on the other side of the cone, and delay of the 'back wave' by differing amounts.

Now, what settings are you using for combined response?


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Away on extended leave.


Posted By: tommysb
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 8:07pm
What software is that Deadbeat?

Tom


Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 9:36pm

based old project

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8740



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horns plans http://photofile.ru/users/tda-audio/


Posted By: nineleaves
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 1:47am
could be an interesting experiment.. - however watch out on the bulkyness, it could be hard to handle.. espcially considering im sure itll come out well over the 100kg mark.
build them and see of course :)


Posted By: Hugo Biermann
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 11:37pm
WSX Has been proving itself for how many years? Not even to mention the 'DIY' old faithful 1850. And the WSX is smaller and more manageable. I would still go for say 6 of them a side if you want proper bass that you can carry out when you are done. Or 8 1850's.
Not being negative, but basshorns are to big for me if they are any bigger than a WSX. You will end up using 4 or more a side and then you will not really have any problems? 1.2 x 1.2 m is a bit too  uncomfertable.


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www.aggressiveaudio.co.za


Posted By: Amano
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:06am
new one! 3.2 meters...
 


Posted By: nineleaves
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:14am
:) ..some years ago i made a design 'exactly' like that.
will see if i can find pic :)

worked ok, but was quite heavy



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