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New 12" + 1" Design

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: X10, X12, X15 and XM15
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the X10, X12, X15 and XM15
Printed Date: 19 May 2022 at 4:07am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 -

Topic: New 12" + 1" Design
Posted By: ceharden
Subject: New 12" + 1" Design
Date Posted: 11 June 2005 at 7:27am
I'm just playing about at the moment building my first mid-tops and so far all is going well.  Here is the spec if anyone has any comments or wants to go down the same route:

B&C 12NDL76 100dB/W, 400W AES <4kg!!!
B&C DE250 Polyimide 1" exit 108.5dB/W 60W AES
ME10 90x60 ABS Horn

Fired one set of drivers up last night in a test box tuned to about 90Hz with active crossover at 1k6 and CD Horn EQ.  Apart from an annoying cabinet resonance sounds pretty damn good. Both the 12" and the 1" have almost ruler flat responses within the range I'm using.  My aim was to design some lightweight yet pokey boxes which seems to have happened.

Only problem now is my 15" reflex subs just can't keep up!

Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 14 June 2005 at 1:14am

Very nice! Pictures??

Active xover

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 7:18am
Hopefully the proper cabinets will be built over the next day or so ready for some gigs at the weekend.  Will try to take some photo's when they're finished.  Active crossover is the way to go, no messing around with fixed passive networks and L-pads

Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 15 June 2005 at 9:01am
Passives can give very good results and the upside is flexibility in not needing a controller. However for the casual DIYer one can get very good results with active crossovers, though the cost is very high.

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 9:11am

Boxes are built, took a bit longer as I decided to use a router on all the joints.  Much stronger tho. Unfortunately haven't managed to test them anywhere I could get a good listen yet. Heavy rock night in a highly reverberant room wasn't a good test.  Also tried them on monitors but lack of low-end and problems with getting them at the right angle meant they struggled to keep up with a full band including brass.  Alternatively the lead singer is deaf and used to the ridiculously harsh monitors I'm refurbing (see eminence topic).

Pics to follow once I've taken them apart (again...) to carpet.

Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 10:46am
The lack of bottom end is easily explained by the MID-Bass speaker employed. It is generally not too much of a good idea to flood the stage with LF anyways and that just muddies up the stage sound.

Artist uhm I mean musician deafness (drummers and guitarists especially) is a huge problem and IEM is imo the best option to enable them to loose their hearing without ruining your mix.

By router do you mean you went for a dado/tongue and groove type joint? I've got to figure out how to make good jigs for these purposes.

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 3:16pm
The boxes were made as small as possible and tuned to about 90Hz, I was never expecting/hadn't designed them to do any real low end. Rather they were designed to partner my 15" subs for small venues.

Routering wise, all I did was to recess the baffle into the sides by 5 mm, the sides and the baffle into the top and bottom etc.  Meant that it would almost stay together without any fixings and there were no issues lining the joints up.  I glued it in one hit with 5min curing wood glue (turned out to be very strong glue but 5mins just isn't long enough!)

IEM would be very nice, but out of range of a lot of the bands I work with.

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 6:09pm
Well, after being unloaded and reloaded a few times between gigs for painting and carpeting they're finally about finished.  Still haven't run them up to what they're capable of where I can get a good listen tho.  Isn't carpetting of trapezoids fun!

Seem to have a bit of a peak at 100Hz or so but that won't be too much of an issue with an x-over at 120-140Hz.  Other issue seems to be port noise.  Got 2x50mm dia ports 18mm long with no real smoothing of the edges. Thought they'd be ok but we live and learn, think I'll be going back to shelf ports.

As soon as I locate my housemates digital camera will post some pics.

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 31 August 2005 at 4:52pm
Finally got camera, so here's a pic of the boxes...

Nice tidy desk as you can see!

Posted By: Jay Lawless
Date Posted: 01 September 2005 at 11:41pm
lol Nice!, i thought of useing those drivers once, I thought the NW76s did a bit better but its nice!

One thing though..., I'm a complete computer geek, mainly with hardware. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, BUT, even with the monitor turned off, the magnets will still kill it. And the hole thing with magnets and computers, only your normal magnet with speakers and such will distroy you'r monitor. It will take something near a 1kw electro magnet to do the smallest amount of damage to you'r computer harddrive and circuitery.

I still like you'r mid/tops though!

I'm designing a good mid/top. tuned at 85hz and uses a 18 sound 12MB700 (101.5db) 450watt RMS. I'm having the same peak problem at about 95hz, but same thing, a good x-over can fix that. My design uses a shelf port instead of the ones you used.

Previously known as NeverWinter

Background: Automotive, Live and Home Custom Design. mid/high level based design and feild experience. Bass specialist

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 7:32am
The 12NDL76's are heading towards horn material (reckon they're worth a go on the porn horns) but from memory the NW76 is actually recommended by B&C for horns rather than reflex boxes.  The interesting thing about the NDL76 is that although they don't really want to go much below 80Hz or so, they have a 6mm Xmax or something silly, better than some of the 15" sub drivers I have!

My main mistake with these boxes was using too small a horn on them, just doesn't do the DE250 justice.  My new plan is to buy two more 12NDL76's and some big horns and build 2x12"+1" boxes, I think the DE250 can keep up with two 12's.

Regarding the monitor, it's old and crap and is only used for occaisional viewing of my linux server (has the images I post on here etc).  I've had plenty of experience with magnets, monitors and all the pretty colours!  The other end of the desk has my 19" TFT and decent PC.

I'm going to be setting up the boxes with subs later for a house party, will take photo's of the whole rig in action.

Posted By: Jay Lawless
Date Posted: 02 September 2005 at 8:04pm
HAHA Nice . I need to get me a nice 19" LCD flat monitor, high magnetic color distortion resistance. I love LCD monitors .

I noticed your horns were a tad small. I'm stuck on buget builds so Madison horns are perfectly fine for me. I'll be using some 7"x14" 1"exit horns on mine. I've heard some of thier horns before and they'r not too bad, its they'r tweeter drivers mounted on them that I have a problem with.

Previously known as NeverWinter

Background: Automotive, Live and Home Custom Design. mid/high level based design and feild experience. Bass specialist

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 7:27am
I bought this LCD in a hurry cos my 19" Iiyama CRT suddenly stopped working while I was doing the largest project in the final year of my degree!  It's an AG Neovo F419, excellent value for money.  Other advantage is you don't need a desk half a mile deep!

Originally the boxes were designed to be as small and light as possible, hence the small ABS horns (designed for a smaller B&C comp driver).  I'm running them too close to cut-off cos they're not designed for a comp driver which goes below 2k or so.  It's summed up by the fact that the magnet doesn't fit through the cut-out for the horn!!!

Might just to to the other extreme and get one bigger than the 12's! PH3220 I think it is?  Gonna load these cabs with cheap drivers and a passive X-over for house parties and DJ monitors when I build the big ones.

Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 11:41am
For a complete classic, you cannot go wrong with the RCF H100 (of which the PH220 is a copy). I have not woked with the PH3220 but it is known to laod the driver quite deep (probably becasue the horn is deep as is evident in teh ripple below 2kHz)

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 11:53am
That is the other option, might be a more sensible size.  I'm going to stick with the recommended X-over for the DE250 of 1k6 so I don't need to go that low.

Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 7:18pm
I cross a H100 around 1k5-1k8 and that B&C is one fine driver. The horn doesn't load much below that though, even though it is specced as an 800Hz horn. Many people see fc x 2 as the minimum crossover frequency.

Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 03 September 2005 at 8:22pm
You're right, I can't believe how much you get out of that DE250 for such little power in even with the ME10 horn. 

At this very moment I've got my whole rig running for a house party: tops plus my 15" B&C subs.  Crest CA9 running sub and mids (big improvement on previous amps), crappy Citronic PSX4 running DE250's.  Unfortunately, being in a residential area, can't run the system to the max .  Sounds pretty good, first time I've had a chance to play with the tops properly. Pics to follow tomorrow...

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