Beyma 12LX60 in Punisher
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=23250
Printed Date: 26 March 2026 at 7:10pm
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Topic: Beyma 12LX60 in Punisher
Posted By: darkmatter
Subject: Beyma 12LX60 in Punisher
Date Posted: 24 January 2009 at 1:16am
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Anyone tried this? Sims slightly better than the Ciare in terms of being more sensitive, flatter freq response and group delay, drops lower with the same input. Downside is higher displacement for the same input power and lower xmax, meaning a possible 3db maximum power disadvantage. Cones seem to be built very differently when I've got the speakers sitting next to each other, but the cooling on the Beyma does seem pretty good, so it's hard to know how much this would affect power compression and long term reliability. I'll give this a try when my punishers arrive and post up some results... |
Replies:
Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 24 January 2009 at 4:21am
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Can't comment on the 12LX's but I've been well happy with my 18LX's. Rich Ind.St will give you some useful stuff about the 12's, I believe all their failures have been heat rather than mechanical breakages ------------- My laser stuff: http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems" rel="nofollow - Frikkin Lasers |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 24 January 2009 at 4:01pm
I tested the 12LX60, 12P1000Nd and the JBL 2206 in a Punishers a while back. I used 8 Punishers and compared 4 by 4 each test with a variety of music. The sensitivity advantage is very noticeable compared to the Ciare 12.00SW. You get about 4-5dB more output from the Beyma's and the JBL's from about 50 Hz and up. Below that the Ciare comes on par with the other three and at about 40 Hz, the Ciare has a slight advantage, but that comes at the expense of using up the X-max of the Ciare and you need A LOT of power in that region. The horn is not long enough to "load" the speaker from about 45-50Hz and down, you are running on the verge of being horn unloaded. If your intention is to use only Punishers and nothing below like reflex subs, longer horns or bandpass subs, than you're better off using the 12.00SW. You'll need more powerfull amps to get the job done and a steep HP filtering at about 45Hz to keep them from burning up and bottoming out. If you intend to use extra subs to cover the lowest octave, than you're far better with 12LX60, 12P1000 or the 2206 and an HP filter at something between 50-55Hz. If used that way, the Punishers are practically unbeatable in terms of size-power-SPL. Another plus for the Beyma 12LX60 is that it sounds nice and smooth way up in the hundred Hz's, something the Ciare won't do due to it's high'ish Le and a thick, heavy cone. The practical upper limit with the Ciare is about 100-110Hz, above they sound horrible. 12P1000 also runs pretty high with good sound, but less than the 12LX60. The weight of the neo speaker might be a plus. The JBL 2206 is almost the same as the 12LX60 in sound, different types of music revealed very little differences between the two or the three if you take the 12P1000 also to compare. I think it boils down to what your intended use will be and/or the style of music you want to use it for. For pure DJ work and dance, trance style music, I would go for Ciare speakers. But if the whole system is intended for live work and must be all-round useable, than I would choose 12LX60 speakers and real (lowest octave) subs with it. The 100Hz+ capability can also be very usefull, depending on what type of mid-top cabinets you have to work with them. |
darkmatter wrote:Posted By: nomis
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:24am
| wow,thanks for the detailed info |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 11:49am
| incredibly useful info, thanks! |
Posted By: massisoda
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 12:32pm
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in other words,Peter Jan you want to say: if you use ONLY the punisher alone make it with the Ciare sw12 else if you use a sub and punisher make it with Beyma 12LX60 correct? ------------- Italian Sound |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 12:57pm
That's correct ! In case of a setup with subs, the choice is not only Beyma 12LX60. I see you are from Italy, so RCF or 18Sound speakers may be easy to get for you. I think like RCF 12N401 or 18Sound 12LW1400 as possible alternatives. Look for high BL factor around 20 or more and an X-max of at least 5mm, combined with a rather low Qts between 0,15 and 0,25. |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 1:28pm
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The B&C 12TBX100 may also be suitable. What subs would you be planning to run underneath them though? Because it may make for an easier setup if the subs are playing a larger bandwidth, say 30 - 90 Hz. A horn sub to sit under the punisher is going to be big, so maybe it's better to make the most of it rather than using it for a very narrow bandwidth? That way you might avoid extra amps, processing channels and time alignment issues. |
Posted By: massisoda
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 4:25pm
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Yeah Peter what do you think about 12TBX100 http://www.bcspeakers.com/product.php?id=0000000046 - http://www.bcspeakers.com/product.php?id=0000000046 ? No problem to find B&C,Rcf or 18sound speaker and probably no problem also for found Beyma speakers. But the problem is: in Italy is impossible to buy Ciare 12.00SW,Ciare don't sell it in Italy!! I talk with a Ciare manager and he tell me that probably Ciare 12.00SW will be commercialised in Italy in a few months. And for sure I want to make some Punisher (for work approx.50-120hz) and subs for lowest octave... ------------- Italian Sound |
Posted By: rich, ind.st
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 5:25pm
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the revised wicked ones i built do seem to hit 40-30 really well with the beymas, sadly in doing that they ceased playing the higher stuff to my liking, could be worth using as a sub under punishers but then again if were going to do that id use a bin that could play a bit higher... the lx series is now discontinued so not sure how the future availability of drivers will be. ciares do work in the wicked ones, just dont sound very musical to me... keyboads been nroken hence me not replying sooner.. ------------- music is god |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 6:16pm
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massisoda look for Ciare PW331 & ciare PW332 as a direct replacement for 12.00SW it has "only" 700W RMS ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: massisoda
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 7:44pm
I want more  ------------- Italian Sound |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 05 February 2009 at 8:16pm
Looks like a good one ! Or the 12NW100 ... |
Posted By: massisoda
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 8:20am
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good notice for Italians after many pression on the Ciare Forum the Ciare 12.00SW will be commericalised with the name PW12.00SW ------------- Italian Sound |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 10:15am
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Beyma 112NdW looked good in horn resp too... http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMA112NDW&product=Beyma_112NdW_12%21dquote%21_700w_AES_8_Ohm&browsemode=manufacturer - http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMA112NDW&product=Beyma_112NdW_12!dquote!_700w_AES_8_Ohm&browsemode=manufacturer ------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 01 June 2010 at 7:34pm
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The LX60 mkII came out recently; out has anybody tried them in puns yet?
------------- Don't test the champignon sound |
Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 01 June 2010 at 8:21pm
Haven't tried them but here's a sim. Black LX60v2, grey LX60v1. In 1pi, single cab 2.83v input. My guess is that as with the v1, an LX60v2 loaded punisher would still not be suitable as a sub and would need something under it. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 7:55pm
Hi Peter, do you still have 12LX60 in your punishers? Did you have any issues with the high loading on the cones? How hard have you been pushing them? I have punishers loaded with Ciare 12SW and i have wanted to try some other drivers in there, i have an 18sound 12LW1400 and a B&C TBX100 and i was considering buying a 12LX60 and doing some testing. Cheers. James ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 8:54pm
Sold them some years ago, but I do get some feedback from the current owner once in a while. He once burned up a few 12LX60 voicecoils (something to do with bridged amps, carnival, etc..  ), but never had problem with the cones.Whether other speakers are a better choice or not, depends on how you use them. The 12.00SW has the edge below 50-55 Hz and if used without true subs, it still is about the only speaker I know (in the Punisher) that can deliver down to 40-45 Hz. It takes big power to get it there and uses up that huge excursion capability, but it does the job, where most other speakers bottom out or burn up if fed the same power that low. As said earlier, if you have dedicated subs to go under the Punisher, other speakers (other than 12.00SW) are a better choice and give you a bit more freedom in the Punisher's high crossover point. When I used them with 12LX60, I let them start at about 50-55 Hz and BR subs overlap up to 60-80 Hz. Depending on what style music the gig was or how much "punch" I wanted to get out of the system, I played around with that overlapping region. 12LX60 is certainly not the only useable 12" for the Punisher. Back than I tested a few candidates that were handy for me to get, but any decent 12" with high(ish) BL, Q's around 0.3 and an Xmax of 7 mm and higher, can do the job. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 11 June 2014 at 9:31pm
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Cheers Peter, TBH im more thinking about designing a 12" FLH running 40Hz-120Hz and i think trying some different drivers in my existing punishers will be a good place to start to see what drivers will play up that high without sacrificeing too much extension, and hopefully find the one that fits the bill, i have a few on hand so i might as well. Did you say on another forum that they could reach 40Hz in multiples with the 12LX60? I think ideally im probably looking for something in between the 2... ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 12 June 2014 at 12:12pm
| what about the faital 12HP1060 ? |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 10:17am
Even in another larger and longer FLH and used in multiples, you'll be hard pressed to find a speaker that does as good a job as the 12.00SW in the lower regions. If you're talking ~50-55 Hz and up, the choice is almost endless and you don't need a larger/longer FLH to make it work good. 12LX60 or similar speakers do reach down to 40 Hz, but not as efficient as the 12.00SW. To match the 12.00SW with any other speakers in the Punisher, you need to EQ several dB and that takes power and more power is something you don't want in such a small rear chamber. No problem with 3-400 Watts or so, but I still have to meet someone who does not feed his/her Punisher(s) with +1000 Watts a piece  . The 12.00SW is not a very efficient speaker by far, but it's set of parameters make it perform better (for the same power) by a few dB in the lower regions, compared to speakers that are more efficient on paper. The problem with speakers efficiency figures is that it's always an average figure, it says nothing about were the most efficiency is situated in combination with a certain style cabinet, tuning, etc.. On the high side, I would say try those speakers you have on hand and compare with the 12.00SW up to 120 Hz and over. For me that was about the highest I would take the 12.00SW in the Punisher, but maybe it might work for you. Other speakers worked better higher up, but not by much. The design of the Punisher with the speaker firing on a 90° angle into the horn is the limiting factor for good high extension, but I think high extension in the hundreds was not a goal when Walt designed it. If you want that, the speaker has to fire straight into the horn and have gentle 90° bends, no 180° folds. |
Posted By: Peter Jan
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 10:30am
Same "problem" going on as I said before :
Another thing to keep in mind is that Xmax figure. Ciare does give the true figure, not so called mathematical calculated figure. Calculated the same way, the 12.00SW would have something close to 15 mm Xmax. Comparing apples with apples... Now if you want to know how good (or bad) any speaker does in the Punisher, first thing to do is at least sim it in Hornresp and weed out those that are not suitable. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 2:00pm
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I dont run my punishers with 1000W+ but i dont like getting close to the edge. Ive tried running the 12SW higher but i think a lowpass at 90Hz is the best way to run them, 120Hz is pushing it a bit too far imo, The TBX100 looks good on paper, ill try it and the 12LW1400 and have a listen and take some measurements. I know what you mean the 12SW has the most displacement, but i would accept a drop in mehanical power handleing if i could run 40-120Hz and sound good doing it. The Fane Colossus 12XB looks worth considering also, only has a 3 inch coil but the 8.5mm overhang is more than the Beyma, 18sound and the B&C, but they would be likely displacement limited running down to 40Hz anyway, Fane has much lower MMS so should be better higher up. I will simulate them all later and weed out the ones that are too far off, i suspect the beyma wont work. Fane looks promising... ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: corell
Date Posted: 13 June 2014 at 2:18pm
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take a look at bms 12s305 aswell |