18inch vs LAB vs 12pi
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Category: Plans
Forum Name: Other plans
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about all the other plans
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=31084
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 2:16am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 18inch vs LAB vs 12pi
Posted By: airbell
Subject: 18inch vs LAB vs 12pi
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 1:46am
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I know this is an old topic and a lot of people have a lot of different opinions about maybe... and sry i dont have so much experience in practical way yet. but in my case im still considering what is the "best" bass system, when u r looking for a portable pa mainly for rock concerts/bands outdoor... sound pressure IS an important thing for me. -->some 18inch basshorn like mse-118(max. 4 cabs, or 3+usb) -->lab sub with usb(max. 3 cabs+usb) -->or big 12pi sub with usb(max. 2 cabs+usb) ??? i know in stacks of four u got more low extension with the lab or 12pi around 32-33hz but i think its not so necessary for bands to go soooo low... at least the deep "d" on a bass is around 37,xx hz i think. 1850 are not low enough for my taste.and maybe not clean enough(?). Thx! |
Replies:
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 2:51am
| Get the EM MSE-118 Quakes. Four of them. You will not be disappointed. |
Posted By: _djk_
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 8:21am
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Low B on a 5-string is 31hz. ------------- djk |
Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 12:11pm
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and low e is 41/42hz from memory ------------- insert silly sentence here |
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 2:40pm
| what's big 12PI ? |
Posted By: skippyboy
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 3:15pm
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google is your friend http://www.pispeakers.com/Hornsub.html |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 4:44pm
yes maybe low b is 31,5hz but i dont want to make a pa system for korn^^yes it would definitely asks for the 12pi or lab sub to go soo deep. i dont have enough money to buy the original EM MSE-118 Subs. But great to hear they are good cabs! Can u say LAB/12pi is more for electronic stuff and some long 18"horns are better for live/rock and for a great deep bassdrum kick or is it bullsh*t and both will work great? What is about the spl? saw a plot of the LAB and it was quite under 100dB 1w/1m..? MSE-118 has 105dB average |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 9:03pm
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Where did you see a plot for lab showing that under 100db response? It should be around 107db mark. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 12:47am
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http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsp/response1.gif Yes maybe at 90hz...but beyond 50 hz where is the "real" sub bass section it got less than 100dB@1cab 1w/1m.. Simulated other designs which gave quite more output around 40hz ect.. I think LAB is a great cab,in huge stacks its might be awesome, just wondered about the "low" subbass spl from 1 cab in comparison with some other 18inch horns.  i dont have capaticy for 6 or 8 subs per side. |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 12:50am
capacity sry
|
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 9:03am
| The LAB is not designed to be used with a single cabinet, minimum 4 stacked together really. |
Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 9:15am
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The most basshorns are disigned to be used in a stack of 4 cabs....
But the LAB still has this dip @42Hz in a stack of 4!
http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv181/Ibex2912/Audio-Guru%20System/LABvs12Pi.jpg -
- 1.Simulation: single cab
- 2.Simulation: 4 cabs
http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv181/Ibex2912/Audio-Guru%20System/LABvs12Pi.jpg">
 - black: 12Pi
- blue: LAB
|
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 4:13pm
http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=subplans - http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=subplans
here is a simulation between Lab(2x12), 12PI(2X12), wsx(1X18)and Super Bass Horn(1X18).
For all simulation grey is 1 horn, black is 4horn:
12PI:
http://img525.imageshack.us/i/12pi1hornvs4horn.jpg/">
 LAB:
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/lab1hornvs4horn.jpg/">
 WSX:
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/wsx1hornvs4horn.jpg/">
 SBH:
http://img230.imageshack.us/i/sbh1hornvs4horn.jpg/">
 |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 5:02pm
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Hey dj-panoramix! I have capacity for max. 4 horns per side! but not for 4 12pi..they re bigger than labs as u know. But it was in fact the dip @42hz of the lab like ibex posted what i was talking about. Think specially these frequencies are important for a great deep bassdrum ect... but correct me if im wrong!it is just my guess... maybe the 12pi doesnt have it but hes quite bigger with maybe same output as smaller 18inch horns.just wondered if theres maybe sth special on lab or 12pi u cant see in the simulations and if it is good for rock live sound... the simulations u made are with 2,83V i guess. but two eminence 12 labs in parallel have 3ohms! It would be 1,73V i think.. |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 5:09pm
| LABS just about work with four in a stack but you really need 6 to get a flat response. As someone who has owned LABS I would recommend you go for the 18s - they will allow you much more flexibility. Unless you want to look at tapped horns which might give you the SPL and flexibility... |
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 5:35pm
what kind of top(mid high) will you use with your future sub ?
i think peoples will need more info to give you correct answer.
|
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 8:23pm
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yeah okay! I already have two Mt122 tops with rcf l12p110k and 2"BMS horn and want to build two more (so 2 per side). Also have 4 RCF L18S800 Speakers. But i know they re not good for horn use, at least maybe for usb. |
Posted By: audionik
Date Posted: 29 October 2009 at 8:36pm
| Did you ever compare L18s800,/801 to LW 1400 in bass reflex box? |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 30 October 2009 at 11:29am
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great job dj-panoramix, did you put the lab's driver in series?
------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 30 October 2009 at 4:06pm
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unfortunately I have no LW 1400...but L18S800 are good cabs for bass reflex.they have a light
cone so u can play high with them have a good kick too and dont need huge power amplification. but im looking for horn bass speaker cause im sure everbody agrees that its a better choice for outdoor. i know its not the topic but how would the rcfl18s800s make in an usb to play from 70hz and higher? and to come back to the topic, i know a frequency plot shows the spl from a certain single frequenz with a certain power level input. but... music are dynamic signals not just one frequenz at the same time. i could imagine that a lab or 12pi sounds not so clear, fast, precious or whatever in comparison to an fast 18inch horn sub.because of the LAB12 driver and the construction. have somebody made experiences like this? can sb agree? or explain why my idea is rubbish? @bitzo : i guess its parallel
|
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 30 October 2009 at 4:43pm
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what about the meatgrinder ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 30 October 2009 at 4:43pm
this is a pushpull horn so...I guess in series... ------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 12:27am
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parallel, here is parallel vs serie: http://img691.imageshack.us/i/lab12paralelvsserie.jpg/"> @airebll: 18 will not be faster than 12, but if you need fast kick bass don't take a long horn...
here is half usb with rcf S800 vs celestion in 0,5PI(so 2usb in 2PI):
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/usbcelestionvsrcfs800.jpg/">
 |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 8:53am
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so...how is mounted the drivers to get the pushpull effect?
------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 4:46pm
in the labhorn and 12PI the driver are in parallel so i make the sim like that... 
|
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 4:49pm
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thanks dj-panoramix for the usb graph! just thought that the lab or 12pi may is not so fast and has some properties of a bandpass cause the chassis have a soft membran elasticity and a weak motor-system....anyway
@bitzo: u get the push pull effect because there are several chambers were the chassis are mounted and one chassis there is a port at the front chamber of the chassis that turns into the horn, for the other chassis the port is positioned at the back chamber, that turns into the horn. so the distortion of the both membrans is invented and deletes each other while meeting at the beginning of the horn. hope u can imagine cause may my description is not so well  |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 5:45pm
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amazing cab! Now I get the plans from Wayne, kind person. Just study the plan :) thanks to all ------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: dj-panoramix
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 6:30pm
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yes really helpfull guy... ;) i made a mistake on the last post, parallel vs serie sim, i edited my post now and have put the real one.
if you use the input parameter from wayne you have to change the driver parameter(because he allready put like 2 driver in parallel)and then you can look in driver arrangement for serie vs parallel.
|
Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 31 October 2009 at 9:49pm
Siffness of the LAB12 cone is worse? ...says who?
 ...funny enough that they recommend a cut-off @ 100Hz 
...Eminence, Ciare, RCF, 18Sound!? What else? Seems that EAW put in what they can get!
...mine are loaded with Omega Pro-12, Definimax 4012HO would work as well.  sorry airbell to wander from the subject, the LAB12 might not be the one with the highest BxL and might not have the stiffest cone (Ciare SW12.00 would be the answer) although the LAB Sub is designed around the LAB12, or the other way round Would two 12" with a BxL of 17.9 T/m (each) be as fast as one 18" with a BxL of 35.8 T/m? Would this thesis be permissible? |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 02 November 2009 at 8:04pm
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i think u have to consider about the cone and voice coil mass too...its double too. so yeah u have the 35.8 BL i think but also double mms... im not sure if the bl factor contains the mms or not. i think that not. and if its true that would mean that a chassis with a very powerful motorsystem and a very high mms is as well as one with a not to powerful motorsystem and a lower mms... but maybe its wrong...?  u can see that it has a siffness cone at the very high qms! |
Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 02 November 2009 at 8:09pm
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siffness of the cone or of the suspension? I think you are right, that you have to double the Mms as well, seems to be very logical! |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 03 November 2009 at 12:50am
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weak suspension, im sry
|
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 07 January 2010 at 1:22pm
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So, did anybody ever hear both systems, LAB and 18inch Sub Horns like MSE-118 or Bassmaxx B Zero, in comparison to give an opinion about??? And second question, would it be better to go with 3 12pi subs or 4 LABs???
thx
|
Posted By: mykey-
Date Posted: 09 September 2011 at 4:18am
------------- BbbBBRAAAAPppBBBBbgushhhhhhhhssshhhhhGrAbRAAAAAAPPPPPp = Dubstep |
Posted By: remountier
Date Posted: 09 September 2011 at 12:55pm
| [OFF]Hi Ibex! how are you doing overlay graphs in akabak?[OFF] |
Posted By: Ibex
Date Posted: 10 September 2011 at 6:30am
Just fine, thanks! ...simply drag&drop |
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 7:24pm
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Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 7:37pm
 510 wrote:if you want kick and a sub at the same time eawkf940 will do the trick 4u nicely 27hz - 200hz what more could you want the perfect box kf940 Thats the problem with long Z-folded horns, you cant cross them very high... according to hornresp my ciare horns are very smooth up to 120 hz, but over 80hz they dont sound so well anymore. well, i think the idea with the "slow sound" that a lab may has was bullshit.still didnt hear one yet, but the ciare 12sw has a similar qms like the lab 12 and is very "fast and direct" for my taste. |
Posted By: remountier
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 3:51pm
| Ibex! sorry for my English, it is an automatic translation, I have found - Ctrl+c Ctrl+v-)))) very cool.thanks! |