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6th order BP kick section

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: Po rn Horns
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Po rn Horns
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=35865
Printed Date: 28 November 2022 at 11:48am
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Topic: 6th order BP kick section
Posted By: lukam
Subject: 6th order BP kick section
Date Posted: 13 February 2010 at 9:18am
Hi!

I have been busy with some sketchup ideas. I'm trying to make a kick sectionin for the porn horn V2 in the box with a 15" 6th order bandpass.
There would be 2 ports one above the HF horn and one under the MF horn. The front and rear chamber would be seperate between the two horns. I was planing to place the tunings around 70 and 130hz the maximal volumes availible are around 25L for the hi tuning and 65L for the low tuning. The exact volumes I don't know because I don't have the porn yet. I'm gonna use drivers from RCF or B&C.  Would port turbolance affect the HF response since the port is above the horn? 
I know  designing a 6th order BP is not gonna be easy I dont have much experiance designing 6th order BP so any help would be appreciated.
I have simulated a bunch of drivers with winisd but I don't know what TS parameters to look for for a good 6th order BP.
The porns would go above LABhorns so a 90hz cut max. I could also built some USBs but I want to have things in one box and as compact as possible.

Here some images for better understanding

http://img200.imageshack.us/i/17228911.jpg/">
http://img709.imageshack.us/i/13086324.jpg/">





Replies:
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 16 February 2010 at 5:24pm
interesting project.

Looks like you know what you're doing. Chances are you'll have to have a play with tuning even if you had exact volumes if your baseing your design purely on WinISD.

Get yourself a suitable mic, RTAnalysis software and some white noise going on.

I would say though that a band pass for kick seems a little odd if you have horn loaded everywhere else. How about a BPH aka HD15 section under the 12" section?


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Posted By: FlipC
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 3:16am
Definitely interesting.

>How about a BPH aka HD15 section under the 12" section?
We assume that he wants to keep the size of the porn horn to its normal size and just use unused space.

I don't see why this couldn't work.
The correct driver is going to be key.  Estimate the amount of space you have and find the highest SPL driver that will work for the space.

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Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 4:14am
Originally posted by tomschute tomschute wrote:

interesting project.Looks like you know what you're doing. Chances are you'll have to have a play with tuning even if you had exact volumes if your baseing your design purely on WinISD.Get yourself a suitable mic, RTAnalysis software and some white noise going on.I would say though that a band pass for kick seems a little odd if you have horn loaded everywhere else. How about a BPH aka HD15 section under the 12" section?
pink, white is for the Taliban

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Posted By: lukam
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 9:21am
Originally posted by FlipC FlipC wrote:


We assume that he wants to keep the size of the porn horn to its normal size and just use unused space.

I don't see why this couldn't work.
The correct driver is going to be key.  Estimate the amount of space you have and find the highest SPL driver that will work for the space.


Exactly!

I'm trying to make the boxes as small as possible and use the unused space. I know that the driver selection is going to be the key.

So what driver do you think would be the best? One with heavier or lighter cones. I'm afraid that the cone will break if its to weak (lighter cones). Maybee a rcf LF15n401 or MB15N351. The MB would be more efficient but dont know what will happen with the cone at higher volumes.

When I get the horns and driver I have some measurement gear and will measure everything.
I have already some P.audio SN-12b lying here.Wink



Posted By: mobiele eenheid
Date Posted: 17 February 2010 at 10:40am
Ultimately you're probably looking for drivers with low Qes/Qts (0,2-0,3), high Fs (45>), lowish Vas (<130 L)and lowish Le (~1,3 mH). High Xmax (7mm >) and 3"VC or bigger are always welcome. 
 
What's the compression ratio on the horn part, what's the crossover part and how much are you going to power these supposebly?
 
Regards Johan


Posted By: lukam
Date Posted: 18 February 2010 at 1:43pm
From what you say the B&C 15NW76 would be nice. FS 42, Qes 0,23, Qts 0,22, Vas 130L, Le 1,25mH and Xmax 8mm.
The simulation also looks good for rear chamber 60L at 70Hz and front chamber 20L at 140Hz. But measurements will tell.

I dont know what compression ratio you mean? For the porn horn I dont know. The porn horn plays down to 130Hz so I would cross over them around 130-160Hz must see. The low cut off for the bandpass would be arround 80Hz. I have 1000W availible to power the kick section.

I dont know how will a BP sound compared to a say USB, what you guys think?

Regards
Luka 


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 12:25pm
I think your biggest problem will be in sensitivity - i think it will be hard for the bp6 section to keep up with the rest of the box
 
but, certainly an interesting idea


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 12:26pm
could another idea be to take the meyer aproach and relex load the rear chamber of the 12" section - they do this on the MSL4 to good effect, that runs down to 65Hz ewith just one 12" and 2" per cab


Posted By: darkmatter
Date Posted: 08 March 2010 at 12:47pm
I was going to say exactly what CSG said, seems a waste to limit yourself to the sensitivity of the single driver kick section when you have such a potent mid-top combo.
 
Not sure a BP6 alignment would have the ideal transient response/group delay for kick, and using such a small bandwidth might be a headache in terms of integrating it with the boxes above/below?


Posted By: PolymorphicMark
Date Posted: 24 December 2010 at 8:11pm
I've found light cones work well in 6BP that need to reach mid kick bass/mid bass frequencies. I used the 18sound 18ND930 in 6bp (light cone for an 18) and measured -3b 47hz - 136hz. Sounded good crossed at about 120hz.

I would probably chose the MB15N351 because of it's very high efficiency (5% i think of the head), plus high fs, and Qts of 0.28 to 0.32 work well in 6bp tuned in the kick bass region.


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Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 28 December 2010 at 10:30pm
I heard lots of BP6, but I never liked any of them above ~80Hz. All kick BP6 have failed to impress me, I wouldn't consider using such a design for kick. This is not a matter of taste, but a matter of how true one wants to stay to the original signal.


Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 9:36pm
I have had some problems in the past with Doppler effect in a design similar to this

I don't say you shouldn't try, just make sure the speed of air in the ports is as low as possible so there won't be a lot of air moving along with the mid and HF, atrough I am still not shure that this is the corect way to cure the problem after some recent tests.

This can also be observed when running stupid amounths of sub right next to midtops

above a certan limit everything starts to sound muddy when you unmute the sub section.



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Posted By: PolymorphicMark
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:58am
Originally posted by JD01 JD01 wrote:

I heard lots of BP6, but I never liked any of them above ~80Hz. All kick BP6 have failed to impress me, I wouldn't consider using such a design for kick. This is not a matter of taste, but a matter of how true one wants to stay to the original signal.

JD01, when you say how close to the original signal do you want to stay, what do you mean? Are you saying that because the sound is coming form a port the phase shift/group delay effects the kick bass. If this is so, then on a standard bass reflex box with say two 12's a large proportion of the sound will still be coming from the port, so there will still e similar phase shift I Think.

I have a 6BP with a group delay of <7ms form about 80Hz - 130


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Free to do what i WANT


Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 12:14am
It's not the group delay as it only displays how long it takes till the signal will be coming out of the system. It can be compensated by delay as long as the group delay over frequency diagram won't be a wild ride around the crossover frequency. It is the decay time of the resonator. A resonator is a very high Q system, that means energy will be stored in and then put out of the resonator, and this won't happen in an instant, especially the "puting the energy out" will take some time AFTER the original signal stopped and even AFTER group delay time has passed. What a resonator does to the original signal is NEVER a good thing, it's always a degradation. Below 60, 70, 80Hz it is acceptable, but still not great. Above 80Hz it's just ugly compared to real "kick bins".

Most double-12 tops are tuned to 80Hz or below, and crossed over around 120Hz. That's ok in my opinion, still there is coming some "noise" coming from the resonator. Stuffing the port for top usage comes to mind. Ported tops tuned to 100Hz or above are just flawed designs, I wouldn't like to use them at all.


Posted By: PolymorphicMark
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 1:26pm
Thank you very much JD01 for taking the time to write such an informative answer. I fully understand what you are saying now, always nice when learn something meaningful.

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Free to do what i WANT


Posted By: fourway hornloaded
Date Posted: 18 March 2014 at 8:26pm
I agree with Mark, the driver should have a Qts around 0,3 and a lowish BL around 23, that makes the response nice and smooth. I think that the 0,2 Qts high-fs drivers that Johan mentions are more for pure horns without a front chamber. They'd make a peaky response in a BPH. I made a pair of 6th order BPH based on L15P200AK, but they were rather aimed at low extention.

As to 'real kick bins': they're all 4th order band pass horns, Turbo TMS, F1, HD15, so if you like that sound, go for it. They all have front chambers, otherways they wouldn't play that low. A straight 15" horn without a front chamber kicks like madness (think Martin MK1) and I can understand that people find that sound way better than a BPH, but then the only thing that makes it play lowish (70 Hz) is horn length.




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