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ciare 12sw horn

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=40106
Printed Date: 05 March 2024 at 10:19am
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Topic: ciare 12sw horn
Posted By: airbell
Subject: ciare 12sw horn
Date Posted: 13 June 2010 at 6:18pm
Considering that the punisher horn goes not low enough for some applications,
i wanted to create a new horn with ciare 12.00sw that goes lower.
box size is about ~80x35x100cm with each 1 ciare.
minimum configuration is 2 horns per side i would say.
i set it as an offset horn and got the best results with s1=s2=s3 as you can see in the pictures below.
any opinions about that?are there any reasons why it could get problems?
simulation is 2 horns in 0,5pi so 8 horns total

btw can anybody explain how to calculate the missing parts that i coloured lilac in the last picture?
if you dont mention them with hornresp and do it over the whole distance with "con"
as in my example they have to be round or am i wrong?
sry for difficulties in expressing what i want to say hope you understandDead











Replies:
Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 14 June 2010 at 4:50pm
okay to ask maybe more direct, is the simulation correct as an offset horn with these parameters according to my sketch?and will it work with this narrow angles inside the box?
thx


Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 14 June 2010 at 7:19pm
How did you come by the value of 100 for Eg?

-------------
Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 14 June 2010 at 9:44pm
oh it was just to calculate with a little bit extra power than aes standard.
i think its not important.1000w would have been 89,44V/8Ohm.
i m wondering more about the construction and if it will work as in my simulation?!!


Posted By: Centauri
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 2:10am
With the section in front of the driver not expanding, it would not be part of the horn, but would be included as front chamber volume (in addition to the volume inside the cone).  The horn starts where expansion starts, so is not an offset driver horn.


Posted By: FlipC
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 6:01am
Take a look at this.

http://worldconspiracy.org/speakers/dualciar.text - http://worldconspiracy.org/speakers/dualciar.text

Note - the output will be smoother than the graph shows. Wont explain it here. You want to read up on why. Go over to DiyAudio.com and also read Danleys white papers on TH'.

This will probably be pretty flat to 150 Hz
Good down to 32 hz And notice it is a single cab in half space.


Posted By: Centauri
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 8:07am
Also note that with a combined Sd of 980cm^2 from two drivers, a throat of 200cm^2 represents a compression ratio of nearly 5:1, which will most likely cause damage to the drivers...


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 15 June 2010 at 3:22pm
yes i was worrying about comp ratio too...know usually its lower.

@FlipC
Sry i did research the whole afternoon but didnt find anything about an offset horn
(or not offset horn) like this.maybe you could give some advice?
So you think this simulation is correct and will give an even flatter response than in
this graph?or was your statement related to tapped horns?

thanks to all!




Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:02am
Dont know if i ve posted it already..was in november 2011 :)





Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:22am
above you have 2x mt121, 1 with experimental phaseplug, one without, in the middle some experimental linearray waveguides with bms4550 (worked very well but later more if i have more time...), each side 2 half usbs, right side 2 kme coax tops (loud, but not good at hf and heavy as hell!).
the car isnt mine ;)


Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:41am
These look wicked. Where do you crossover and do you use a HPF? And what amps do you drive them off?

Don't know why there aren't more designs like these?

S


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:38pm
Looks great Airbell, like the simple layout, box is about the same size as a punisher so getting them to go lower with the same size box is a good achievement.   How do they sound?  Have you compared them to punishers? 


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 4:52pm
Thanks for the compliments!
Despite the simple layout it was a lot of work, i ve cutted and made everything on my own.
For this first test as seen in the pics above we had only one 9kw generator and only 1 LAB Gruppen 13000! So no need to put a highpassfilter. For subs the 1 labgruppen was too little, but anyway it was still very very impressive how much power can give only 1 amp to these horns. the kick was just amazing, especially kickdrum of some classic rock songs sounded so directly and strong even at great distance.

In 2012 I used them on a festival but with 4 prolines 3000 (so 4 horns per proline) and two 9kw generators.
The sub was amazing, stomach shaking, low, smooth and no joke i needed no eq (other as with labgruppen where i had to push the bottom end a bit).
hpf was at 30hz/24db linkwitz riley.

but....i dont know if it was because of the power generators or sth else but with the prolines i really missed the upper bass - kick definition that was so much better with only 1 labgruppen fp13000!!!

Unfortunately i dont have the punisher for comparison. im sure the punisher will go higher, the max. for my layout is 80hz i would say. you can cross higher but then you definitely need some eqing and resonances start to appear quickly.

I would say these speakers go down to 35hz but to be fair i think the excursion goes to its limit that low, or maybe the high compression affects the output here a little bit.

all in all they have a nice smooth voluminous sound as long as you dont cross them too high.
the highest efficience is at about 50hz. it was insane with some tracks and the 4 prolines.
and even deep low drum n bass is just fine for these horns.

If you just want a lot sub beyond 40hz, you might be better with a lot of double 18s reflex or bandpass,
but almost none of these constructions will have a so direct kick response like FLHs like these AND will do lots of sub Smile

nothing bad about the prolines, they are solid amps that deliver lots of current, but in the future i will try to afford 2 LABs for my horns. Im sure some other amps would do the job very well too. its just the way i want to go.









Posted By: PavelP
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:23pm
airbell, look it's not an offset horn because s1-s3 is a throat chamber 6500cm3+6000cm3=12,4L so you can make a hole for the driver as big as you want (try to simulate). By the way it's no rational to load 12" on 35Hz, you can get a better performance and surge capability from 18" in the same volume.


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:36pm
pavelp,  WHAT please???Stern Smile
to the 18", please check some good sub 12" horn designs before you say something like this.
I think EAW Bh760 and KF940 are the most similar and if you ever heard them you d know that they are with the right setting very good speakers and a lot of sub.


Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 8:28am
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

pavelp,  WHAT please???Stern Smile
to the 18", please check some good sub 12" horn designs before you say something like this.
I think EAW Bh760 and KF940 are the most similar and if you ever heard them you d know that they are with the right setting very good speakers and a lot of sub.


+1. What does that mean PavelP?


Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 15 January 2013 at 10:51am
OD driver in my book. great work there! oh how i hate punishers!

Tom

-------------
Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk
www.stableaudio.co.uk
Speaker Building Services


Posted By: PavelP
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 5:59pm
Ok. First of all place your sub on a floor 2,0xPi. Using 0,5xPi in any calculations of professional equipment isn't correct because 0,5xPi means that your loudspeaker is placed in a room corner. Have you seen loudspeakers in a corner?
Of course it's not an offset horn and s1-s3 will act like throat chamber 6,4L+your primary chamber 6L=12,4L.
Now see your response graph. 40Hz in 383L and 98db? It's not bad, but group delay is up to 27,5ms... It's a very big delay.
Then export your project in Akabak and check xmax with passive filter -- it will be very big, so maximum spl will be slightly lower. About 128db i think.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1350233/the-othorn-tapped-horn



Posted By: Mark James
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 8:47pm
he probably simmed in 0.5pi  because hes likely to use 4 or more cabs per stack 4 cabs in 2pi sims very similar to 1 cab  in  0.5pi i usualy sim both ways just  to check when I use horn response.....

-------------
me so horny me love you long throw
horn loaded for her pleasure


Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 17 January 2013 at 9:45pm
ok you got me on OD arrangement. But it sims even better in Nd arrangement!

But yes you'd be mad to base a design like this on 2pi sims... who'd run one in open space???

Group delay isn't great around tuning frequency - big deal...? If your going with this kind of design you arn't in it for Hi-Fi bass. And Will you even notice poor group delay that low anyhow?

Tom

edit: Xmax looks great to 800watts if HP at 35Hz. ANd you'd be mad to put more in than that unless you like reconeing.


-------------
Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk
www.stableaudio.co.uk
Speaker Building Services


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 1:13am
So, first of all the sim at page 1 is for 8 horns standing on the floor (2pi).
in the end some parameters changed a little bit but not too much.
You can use even just 1 horn per side, but indeed, you d be better off with other designs size/output wise and would need some eq. 
as you know horns are ment to be used in groups. in the pic you can see a total 16 of my ciare horns and if you simulate 16horn in 2pi you get an almost flat curve. it was no joke that i didnt need to boost the low end so needed no eq and had a lot of sub.also efficience is rising as for any design if used in groups.
these horns are no subbass monsters, despite you get a serious amount of low bass, surely more than with punishers, especially if you use 16 of them and power them well. 
but they also have a lot of overall output, are very efficient and to the group delay,
there are other designs, especially bandpass, where the group delay is a loooot bigger and you have a good sound.
important is that there is no big jump/difference in group delay at the higher bass frequencies where the time response is much more important.

tomschute, thats exact what my experience is.Smile 1000watt continuous is the very max for long term use.
a friend of mine burned his ciare 15ndh-4s horns with 1000watt, and he even has some large cooling metal sheets at the rear chamber of his horns.

i considered to put 2 ciare 12sw in one of each horn to get even more low end, but i would have to change the whole design/enclosure, also one box would get too heavy for me then.

one horn as it is now is actually pretty compact and i can carry and put it somewhere easily alone. thats an inportant point for me cause i dont always have some helping hands by my side.





Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 1:28am



if used in 16 xmax for 1000watt @ 36hz is 10,6mm. the ciare 12sw has 11,5mm linear xmax.

..sorry for the bad resolution!


Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 18 January 2013 at 5:37pm
I've read all this discussion on sims and it occurred to me that simulation is probably more useful before build 16 and sit in front of them. I can't see how 16 12 sw horns would not sound good so I'll ignore the data and trust your hands on experience.

Well done on making a portable horn from a fairly awesome driver! I love this project.

S



Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 20 January 2013 at 9:15pm
well simulation is good, and of course you need a starting poing also the programms today are pretty good and close to reality, but finally i did 4 prototypes and also a lot of measuring..

thanks Sheggy! always nice to hear some motivating words SmileBeer



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