the italian problem...
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Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=43580
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 12:52am
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Topic: the italian problem...
Posted By: _Natty_
Subject: the italian problem...
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 2:47pm
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I don't know if it's the same in uk, but here many many venue have some serius prob on power supply, maybe just 1 32A plug -when u are lucky- maybe just 16A plugs... -i've just broke an ab class amp this friday for driving it with too less power- so the problem how we can drive a big system with old amps like crest 9001 or crown MA5000 or similar... the only solution is going on expensive D class amp? any opinion is wellcome! |
Replies:
Posted By: Peter Papp [PKN]
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 3:00pm
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Using more efficient amp means more output power from the same line. Probably good old linear amps are the less power efficient from any known technology. Most of the conventional low frequency and switching power supply powered amps(!) have very poor power factor and high line current distortion. If you have a modern and with good power factor (like amps with built-in APFC) you can pull out much higher power from the same socket safely. Some modern amps have pretty high stored energy inside which helps to deliver music peaks and "smoothen" the line current draw. Just for an example with the same 16A/230V (3600W) available power with 50% signal density (pretty high): 1. Linear amp Efficiency=60% PF=0,5 Real Input power:1800W Heat produced: 720W Output average: 1080W Output peak: 2x 1080W 2. Switching amp with PFC: Efficiency=90% PF=0,95 Real Input power: 3420W Heat produced: 342W Output average: 3078W Output peak: 2x 3078W So it is a pretty big difference. In the most number of cases the peak-to-average ratio with music signals rarely closes to 50% anyways. |
Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 3:40pm
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+1 on natty question would soon go from 1 stack(4scoops) to 2 stacks(6 scoops) and would love to have the best amps with the limited power we usually find at venues what are the most efficient amps out there? infinite 8? ------------- http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 29 September 2010 at 4:01pm
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define "best" please. You know a class H, double toroidal sound lush but...eat a lot of current. A part class D, someone have experience with others switching amp? ------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 11:34am
| so it's just an italian problem.... |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 12:09pm
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Try Ireland. Most of the time, we only get a pair of 13amp sockets running from the same ring main. Line voltage drops to around 218 and I have seen it as low as 210. I'm usly running PKN6000/4000/2500 and crown Macro Tech 9000i, All class D. The PKNs have no problem running at these low line voltages, the Crown however is very sensitive to line voltage drop.
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Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 1:26pm
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that's interesting, what kind of power supply have the pkn?
------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: subbass
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 1:35pm
at least you havent got a 250v+ .. got that in my house, causes no end of problems 
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Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 2:00pm
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Re: "at least you havent got a 250v+"
heard somewhere that parts of Brizzle still has DC Supplies..... now I know it may be true! Mik ------------- Warning! May contain Nuts plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc. |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:07pm
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Both the Crown and the PKN have switching supply's. The PKN supply seems very well built, it manages to maintain a very high output regardless of the line voltage. As Line level drops the power supply does start to eat into it's thermal head room, However I regular a hot and sweaty club where I use the PKN XE6000, the line level sits around 218V, I power a pair of Void Stasys X Neo bass speakers, The DJs play Dub Step. Even under these conditions the amp is able to run the subs at optimal level without overheating it's self. The Crown on the over hand seems to run into clipping as soon as voltage drops. I think this is a software thing rather than a power supply thing, I think the amp is clamping down on the current when it sees the voltage dropping, which leads to premature clipping. This is probably a great feature in certain circumstance, however it leads to a lot of problems when your gigging old venues. I am happy, but it is worth noting at this point that I do have a vested interest in PKN. |
Posted By: bitzo
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:30pm
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so interesting and useful...so what about qsc pl series and lab gruppen? ------------- http://www.unitedroots.it - United Roots SoundSystem site |
Posted By: abbotsmike
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:31pm
| If you read around you will find power supply problems are pretty universal, and many guys end up running off nothing more than a couple of ropey 13amp sockets. |
Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:50pm
so spend 5000euro on a powersoft amps it's the only solution?
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Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:52pm
| It's not the only solution. |
Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 5:54pm
| 4999 for another D amp? ;) |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 6:12pm
I think. €4999.99, Will just about buy you 2x 7000W amps from a certain other manufacturer, and leave you with a cool €1000 for something else. 
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Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 7:10pm
| yes but beetween ferrari and perrari i think is better the original one... |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 7:20pm
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I have no idea what you are talking about. |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 01 October 2010 at 7:31pm
| haha |
Posted By: Muckerbarnes1
Date Posted: 02 October 2010 at 8:43am
SRX3801's lasted a very short time there a few years ago. Sadly had to go SMPS. ------------- Billy Dawg. |
subbass wrote:Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 02 October 2010 at 11:01am
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I just don't get it how some people seem to think that PKN is a copy of Powersoft. It's like saying that all Class AB or H 2U amps are copies of the first one. Or is it because many still believe nothing original can come from east Europe? |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 02 October 2010 at 11:09am
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superficially they may look similar, but the pkn is very different inside. one simple difference is the powersoft switches at 128KHz, the PKN a balanced 256KHz
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Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 02 October 2010 at 12:02pm
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It is somewhat frustrating. |
Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 02 October 2010 at 10:18pm
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Both PKN XD and XE are better in *real* higher power listenings test sound quality than any of Powersoft K-series or LabGruppens... May this is not valid with all kind of speakers just 3 or 4 what we tested. Anyways these test were more than suprisingly for us because there were serious differences betwwen amps..- |
Posted By: Speaker Sol
Date Posted: 03 October 2010 at 1:22am
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Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 03 October 2010 at 1:51am
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i need W for bass...so i think that powersoft is the best. It seems to have a big control on bass, and also it's from italy, more easy to get, assistance, parts and thinghs... but anyway i don't think that actually i can't spent this amount of cash. i have some good 9001 that i can take really good price but it's seem that they needs to much power for most of the venue where i play. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 03 October 2010 at 9:44am
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i think you seriously need to re-think if you think powersoft is the only light weight option that can deliver high powers. The PKN amps are actually able to sustain their power rating for longer than the powersoft k series, and sound better to boot. The PKN is also considerably cheaper. Dont be fooled by the fact that they are currently a smaller, less well known brand. In time, this will change. and im speaking as someone who has direct experience, having owned 9001's, powersofts and pkns. can you say that?
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Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 06 October 2010 at 9:43pm
I'm really glad I introduced PKN to the forum some time back, even though I never bought one because the need went away -- lots of people are very happy with them, and they do seem to do just what I predicted from the beginning (and what PKN said they'd do)... ;-) http://forum.speakerplans.com/topic24766.html |
Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 06 October 2010 at 10:27pm
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Going back the original question: Isn't the thing that makes powersoft and PKN able to cope with changes in mains frequency and voltage the power factor correction? Am I correct in saying that the reason why transformer amps may have a bit of an issue in situations where the voltage drops or is too high due to them having set working conditions based on the actual transformer in the supply itself? ------------- Don't test the champignon sound |
Posted By: _Natty_
Date Posted: 08 October 2010 at 9:37am
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OT any one have try the lem powerfacotr 7? i have a good offer for a couple of this.... |