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Heat problems!?

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=44276
Printed Date: 30 June 2022 at 2:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Heat problems!?
Posted By: Crazy Dane
Subject: Heat problems!?
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 4:29pm

I an about to build some punishers.

But the dealer i am about to buy drivers from, says that there has been som reportet problems with heat in the punisher.

If i use the 12.00SW speaker in the Version 2 Punisher, will i get problems with speakers overheating?

Ore was that only a problem in the Version 1?


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Best regards... Frank



Replies:
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 5:17pm
Only the first version cabinet with the second generation drivers suffered from heat issues.
The cause was lack of ventilation to the voice coil because the second generation speaker was deeper.

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general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research
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Ex Nexus_3


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Mircea Bartic Mircea Bartic wrote:

Only the first version cabinet with the second generation drivers suffered from heat issues.The cause was lack of ventilation to the voice coil because the second generation speaker was deeper.


Not 100% correct - the v2 cab with current drivers still gets very hot and I've only seen one dead Punisher that wasn't due to overheating the VC.

They can't take 1000w RMS all night long.


Posted By: Crazy Dane
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 6:09pm

That sucks :(

What about if i use the Neodymium driver instead?


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Best regards... Frank


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 6:22pm
Neo wont make much difference, the problem is the small closed rear chamber, it gets hot over long periods of time at high power,  there is no way for the heat to escape and it gets hotter and hotter and cooks the driver. 

I run mine on about 700W each and ive never had a problem, the drivers can take 700W in the punisher, just dont clip the amp. 

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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by Mircea Bartic Mircea Bartic wrote:

Only the first version cabinet with the second generation drivers suffered from heat issues.The cause was lack of ventilation to the voice coil because the second generation speaker was deeper.


Not 100% correct - the v2 cab with current drivers still gets very hot and I've only seen one dead Punisher that wasn't due to overheating the VC.

They can't take 1000w RMS all night long.


What failed out of interest?  did you get the former to hit the back plate?


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James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: abbotsmike
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 6:46pm
Aluminium access panel with heatpipes onto the magnet an option?


Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:


Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by Mircea Bartic Mircea Bartic wrote:

Only the first version cabinet with the second generation drivers suffered from heat issues.The cause was lack of ventilation to the voice coil because the second generation speaker was deeper.


Not 100% correct - the v2 cab with current drivers still gets very hot and I've only seen one dead Punisher that wasn't due to overheating the VC.

They can't take 1000w RMS all night long.
What failed out of interest?  did you get the former to hit the back plate?


Ten points to that man! Last time I ever ran them below 42Hz 48dB L-R.

Originally posted by abbotsmike abbotsmike wrote:

Aluminium access panel with heatpipes onto the magnet an option?


The access panels sit side by side - even with spacers to ensure a bit of airflow you'll find the top cabinet is a lot hotter than the others.

I believe Timebomb here looked into piping the vent out to the mouth of the horn but I'm not sure why a prototype was never made. Going from 700w to 1000w+ isn't giving you a noticeable difference to my ears anyway, it's all lost in power compression because of the heat.


Posted By: Crazy Dane
Date Posted: 18 October 2010 at 8:02pm
What about a ali heatsink placed in the mouth of the horn folding?

Underneath the driver ore on the panel next to it.
See link...
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/271296 - http://peecee.dk/upload/view/271296

I'm working with CNC milling, and could make some heatsinks that maybe could absorb some heat?

 


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Best regards... Frank


Posted By: vzummer
Date Posted: 20 October 2010 at 10:57pm

Crazy Dane, you're absolutely right, for example have a look at VOID sub (rear):

http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=76 - http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=76

Though, heatsinking is a separate branch of physics and engineering; and demands dedicated calculations and modelling. I'm looking forward to implement similar solution in 15" W-bin. I think the task is not so critical and accurate calculations can be omitted. Just using common sense.

This is how it could be:

http://i51.tinypic.com/24pxlhv.jpg">

Cast or milled aluminium (or its alloys).

Could be aided (even replaced) with two side panels. Speaker access panels could be made from such heat radiator.

For best passive ventilation all fins should be vertical at this point ov view.

Maybe this configuration is even better that 1st, because:

1) increased dissipation surface (two panels instead of one)

2) additional infrared (heat) radiation transfer due to radiators closely placed to magnet

Anyway, who's got money and is someway fanatic can place all three of them.

Sorry for kiddish sketches, don't have forces to draw precise at night =)



Posted By: Nachural
Date Posted: 21 October 2010 at 10:38am
Ideally the heatsink would have to be in thermal contact with the driver.

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it's all just cardboard and magnets really


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 12:08am
I am currently considering the dynamics of this problem and may have a solution


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 9:17am
As long as you can get machining accuracy, contact from the plate to driver wouldn't be such a problem. Aluminium Plates on the cab have been done, and it just leaves the various ways of making contact with the speaker. A bit of Engineering should do it. Efficient heat transfer would also depend on the size of the contact area being used on the speaker. Even an Aluminium disc hovering over the speaker connected to a rod that is connected to the face plate would have an effect, but good contact to the speaker would be the best.
An Aluminium Strap like a giant Jubilee Clip could also be placed around the Magnet and then connected to the plate. These methods are easy to apply with a Ceramic Magnet Speaker, but what about Neo speakers. Some of the larger models have the Magnets enclosed in metal cases, which probably don't touch the case, so heat sinking would be more difficult. Just a few thoughts.


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Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 3:52pm
I intended in thought something a little more active, not passive. ie refrigerated cooling. Which would be far more aggressive type of cooling it would be possible to use the signal to power it. just cooling the chamber negates ant need to have a physical connection.

It does require an exchanger to be designed and incorporated in the cab. I have so far no calcs but there is plenty of room for such a device and this method would be easier to fit  without need to attach to the speaker


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 3:58pm
It may be of some commercial value so shall say no more at this pointTongue


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 7:44pm
The nearest idea I had for cooling was copper pipe around the magnet and then refrigerated  water pumped round. But there was too much against the idea. Going back to the original days of rave, many water cooled Lazers were used and it wasn't unusual to find bucket loads of water back stage, so sooner or later connectors give trouble. Secondly, going back to my Tool making days in the Plastics Industry, we used to make the moulds with water ways to cool them. There was a choice of normal water or refrigerated water depending on the working temperature of the mould. With a largish speaker system it would only be practical to have a continual flow through all the cabs, but although the water might start off cold, it would be getting warmer as it passed through the different cabs. All in all, it wouldn't be practical, so that was the end of that.

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Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 8:18pm
peltier heat pumps would be ideal, being solid state with no liquid parts. having sufficient BTU would be the problem i suspect, but it would make a considerable difference.

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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 8:22pm
wat about a heat exchanger?
...i mean putting a "large" radiator inside the chamber with heat pipe running out side to another radiator with a 140-200mm fan.
a similar effect to how computer heatsinks work but on a larger scale. it could work quite nicely but would need some extensive testing.

im talking about cooling the air inside the chamber not the magnet. i.e lowering the ambient temp inside the chamber by a few degrees....... and the few degrees can be the diff. between a cooked coil and a hot coil.


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 9:56pm
I reckon a throat heatsink is the best bet. Well cooled by airflow and the whole stack can cool as one. Even with no direct thermal contact to the driver it would probably be quite an improvement.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 19 December 2013 at 10:05pm
NOW IV NEVER HAD A DRIVER GET HOT ENUFF TO KNOW.... DOES THE WHOLE DRIVER GET HOT? EVEN THE FRAME?


*poxy caps lock.


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 12:01am
These days, the Frame is the Heat Sink.

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Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 12:21am
Water pathways through a cast aluminium frame would make sense... if necessary
Originally posted by TONY.A.S.S. TONY.A.S.S. wrote:

many water cooled Lazers were used and it wasn't unusual to find bucket loads of water back stage, so sooner or later connectors give trouble
Neutrik to release a line of hydraulic fittings?


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 12:25am
I suppose if there was a leak, those using drain pipes for ports would be catered for.

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Posted By: Tony Wilkes
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 7:00am
But you have to remember that for the heat to get into the magnet assembly first and hence to any connected structure it has to pass over a tiny but very important Air Gap.

Regardless of how many claims are made for advanced cooling of voice coils etc this fundamental weakness in the thermal flow cannot be overcome, at least with traditional methods.

Physically cooling the air in the cabinet to sub zero temperatures would probably make some difference but even then less than you would think.

What probably causes most of the early onset of thermal damage in the Punisher is simply that the movement of the cone is much smaller than normal due to the increased cone loading so that for example cone movement is probably 1/4 (Guess) what it would be in a reflex box.

The fact that it is also working in a tiny chamber acerbates the problem so that the poor air ventilation becomes extremely poor ventilation so the driver fails with seemingly less power than in a traditional box.
That said it is only probably 10-15% difference in the two scenarios.

Answer, simplzz, use two Punishers and only stick 500w up their arse's because you ain't gonna cure it with bits of "tin" no matter how clever you are.

Tony


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www.forteaudio.eu - BMS - db-Mark Processors - Lexon (SAE)


Posted By: SMP
Date Posted: 20 December 2013 at 8:19am
Well said Tony!!! but the "JBL Crew" ( Just Bloody Loud Crew) are are only interested in moving air it seems. They are not goona waste time considering things like Audio quality for the most part just how few cabs they need to do it  sadly


Posted By: To Old Now
Date Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:53am
Has any one thought about the  Volt Driver where the frame is on the outside of the cab and not enclosed as other drivers are? Though that does depend on how much air travels over the frame to allow it to cool.
JUst a thought!!!!


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You want it when?


Posted By: Muckerbarnes1
Date Posted: 22 December 2013 at 11:10am

Agree with Tony. A crazy problem too IMO. By the way here JBL is (junk but loud) seen as the same.

I have used Volt 15's in horn loaded sub many times. They worked for years. A great speaker. Sadly hard to get recone and drivers from David was a problem. They are not for stupid high power levels as some newer drivers. A new build Volt with a better coil assembly may help more.



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Billy Dawg.


Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 22 December 2013 at 11:35am
Dave's always been a hard man to move.

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