AES vs RMS
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Category: General
Forum Name: Newbie Discussion
Forum Description: Newbie Discussion/Questions. Look less stupid here...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=45227
Printed Date: 19 April 2024 at 4:24pm
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Topic: AES vs RMS
Posted By: simonh
Subject: AES vs RMS
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 6:49pm
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Hi Guy's Sorry, newbie question, what's the difference between AES & RMS? Regards Si.
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Replies:
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 7:10pm
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about 20-30% 800W RMS = about 1000-1100W AES ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: GEB
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 7:15pm
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AES power handling is perhaps one of the best defined ratings for loudspeakers. It is simply http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Pink+Noise - pink noise filtered between 125Hz and 8kHz with a peak to average ratio of 6dB and applied over a period of two hours. It is one of the better indicators of both the thermal and mechanical aspects of power handling. ^ Found this on another website, hope its helpfull. |
Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 7:52pm
| so if i have a bass bin at 1600w aes then an amp of about 1200w rms would be about right for it? |
Posted By: daywalk3r
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:30pm
Therefor the recommended ratio is usually 1.5 to 2 times amp power to speaker power. Nevertheless, it would be ok to use a 1200W amp on a 1600W bin, but you would probably be far from getting the most out of your speakers. Just don't let the amp clip too much (or at all), because you could easily fry the drivers like that (yes even if the drivers are 1600 and the amp "only" 1200W). Hope it helps, cheers.. |
markjameslong wrote:Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:34pm
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ok, i see, so what would u recomend? thanks |
Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:37pm
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what about brickwalled dubstep? playing out of a laptop with a hacked copy of ableton? there aint any peaks there, its just one squashed, badly mixed peak. 1200w rms will over heat just about any woofer over a 2hr period in situations like this. ------------- REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :) |
Posted By: daywalk3r
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:49pm
 As I meantioned above, a 1.5 ratio between amps/speakers is a good starting point. But you don't really have to approach it in such a detail as the marketing departments of many of the amp brands/manufacturers sometimes go pretty delusional when it comes to printing numbers on the spec sheets of their products. - eg. the RMS/AES difference will be relatively negligible in comparison. |
Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:50pm
| so how would you get around that in a practile way rich? |
Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:53pm
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day walker: ha ha, shame there isnt one tryed and tested means of it all really. but makes it all the more intresting i guess... onwards and up... |
Posted By: daywalk3r
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 8:58pm
and that's a pretty simmilar case to the amp-clip scenario, just that the source of the problem is not the amp.A clipped signal is bad, regardless of wether it's origin is at the end or beggining of the signal chain.. |
Posted By: daywalk3r
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:05pm
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Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:10pm
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yes i see what your saying, thanks for that. im now on the hunt for a 2.2 to 3.6k a side amp now :S think thats going to be wayyyyyy out my budget. cheers mate |
Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:19pm
you cant. the program material is now regarded as sounding good if there are no quiet parts of the track.. you'll need to teach the kids that less is more, but in our ipod world, it wont be easy ------------- REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :) |
Posted By: daywalk3r
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:32pm
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Posted By: markjameslong
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:37pm
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rich: bloody kids then, lol, so no limmeters or stuff like that can help you out? daywalker: sorry the bass cabs i have are 4ohm, im guessing two 800w drivers to make them 1600w @ 4ohm. so in that case would i be best looking at 2 amps that can do about 2k-3k in 4ohm bridged? |
Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 11 November 2010 at 10:16pm
limiting is the main reason the program material is at -0.1db throughout most dubstep records. the points where the track is using everything up to -0.1db are a lot longer than the periods where a techno record peaks at -0.1db. with techno you get a bit of a breather due to the space between kickdrum hits. just means a dubstep rig needs more LF capabilities. limiting will prevent speakers getting a sudden peak with things like dropped needles and dropped mic's, but is actually allowing the user a greater risk of thermal damage over a longer period. ------------- REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :) |
Posted By: simonh
Date Posted: 12 November 2010 at 9:04am
Cheers guy's for your responses, even though dubstep was mentioned. Reminds me of speed garage that was round in the mid 90's. That didn't last too long, hopefully dubstep will go the same way....
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 12 November 2010 at 9:31am
So then this is totally wrong for subs power measurement. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: windowgobo
Date Posted: 13 November 2010 at 10:34am
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proline3000 or an ep 4000 would are the cheapest amps with the right amount of power,dont know how well a 4Ohm bridged EP would perform tho. ------------- In lab and mouse studies, the compound, known as THC, cut lung tumor growth in half and helped prevent the cancer from spreading, says Anju Preet, PhD, a Harvard University researcher in Boston |
Posted By: LionsPaw
Date Posted: 13 November 2010 at 11:13am
| We use a proline3000 to run 2 8ohm 800aes drivers per side and, while you do have to be careful not to clip it, it does a good job. If multiple amps is out of your budget i wouldn't worry about using one for now, some people could say we aren't getting the very most out of the cabs but really it goes as loud as we could want it to. |
Posted By: Grumpy
Date Posted: 14 November 2010 at 8:27pm
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JBL's advice here: http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=290&doctype=3 - http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=290&doctype=3 |
Posted By: simonh
Date Posted: 15 November 2010 at 12:58pm
| Thanks Grumpy, I'll take a read JBL document. |
Posted By: malc01m
Date Posted: 28 February 2012 at 4:00pm
Really? I thought limiters work by attenuating the dB level on the input signal, keeping the original dynamic at the same time... Not by clipping the sound....The only change in dynamic occurs because limiters may start working on different channels at different times.... Thus thermal damage is reduced.. |
Posted By: zatzen
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 4:00am
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Clipping of an Amp ist not critical for Woofers. I don't go with the argument that you should use an Amp twice The Power of The Speakers. Because then you realy CAN destroy them. At least if you don't use very Good Limiting, but this will also bringt Transients down, and short Term Power Handling less a problem for Speakers. So you could nontheless simply use Amps Matching the Power Handling of the Speakers, or even just a bit below. So, Think big, use Speaker with e.g. 1500 Watts and an Amp with just exactly that much. Protect Speakers by NOT using Amps that could turn them into smoke. You can not predict for an event, if there's Music played with Short but big Bassdrums, or if you're Making a Gabber Party where Bassdrums are more like Sinewaves (in the Bass Region) pretty without any Dynamics, demanding nonstop full-power handling from the Speakers. |
Posted By: TONY.A.S.S.
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 8:36am
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I think, given the choice, most people would go for bigger amps to give them headroom. Control over your equipment is the key. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/tony.rossell.3 |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 10:28am
+1 Always knew AES ratings for 18" sub-woofers was pile of crap, from experience of certain driver behavior, driven 40-120hz, between 500-800W. AES power rating (for Sub drivers), about as useful as power amplifier ratings @ 1khz, for large amps intended for sub. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 10:59am
a comparison of the different speaker measuring methods: ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: azlan
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 11:06am
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as a general rule, the AES rating will be around half the RMS, which is in turn half the program rating, which could well be half the peak rating, depending on how the company in question measures it. The reason for this is a 3db increase in level equates to a doubling of output power from an amp, the average signal for AES is 6db below the peak, but only 3db for RMS (usually), Programe is a term usually used to describe a speakers performance with real world audio (usually with a dynamic range of anywhere from 3-10db!) Remember though, if you cant afford an amp that can deliver buckets of headroom, so long as you don't clip the amp you should be fine, and on paper, even if the amp can only supply half the rated peak output, you should only lose about 3db from the maximum volume (not all that much really!) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/azlan121/?chartstyle=basicrt10" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 11:55am
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In terms of 18" drivers, might be simpler to say, ignore AES ratings, and consider accuracy of RMS ratings, to be linked with driver manufacturer reputation. Have seen some 18" drivers rated @ 2400W AES, luckily I know many of them wouldn't survive 900W in correctly tuned reflex, but many don't. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 2:08pm
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4.5 Power handling 4.5.1 Test conditions and equipment The lf driver shall be mounted in free air so that the direction of motion of diaphragm is in horizontal plane and so that there is no appreciable air loading from adjacent structures. The driver shall be excited with a band of pink noise extending one decade upward from the manufacturer's stated lf limit of the device. The noise shall be bandpass filtered at 12dB per octave with Butterworth filter response characteristic, and the peak-to-rms ratio of the noise supplied to the lf driver shall be 2:1 (6 dB). Refer to Appendix C for the recommended method. The manufacturer shall state the upper and lower cutoff frequencies (-3dB) of the noise signal. 5. Low frequency enclosures 5.2.4 Additional power handling information. If the rated power for given lf driver/enclosure combination is different from that observed when the driver is mounted on the standard baffle to radiate into 2pi steradians, the manufacturer shall so state. |
Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 2:26pm
Yeah right... Good luck waiting for that..  Final comment, AES ratings aren't worth anything "IMHO", except selling drivers to the un-informed. ------------- Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing. |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 2:48pm
No need to wait. Measurement documents are available from all manufacturers at least to designers. I have piles and piles of those documents and they specify clearly what was done and how it was done. But to you for example Xmax is just one number. To me there is 4 different Xmax limitations... |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 3:50pm
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As an addition to what Pasi said you can always do your own torture tests and see what it can do. But hat does not include +10db at 40Hz :-) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: pfly
Date Posted: 30 June 2013 at 8:34pm
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I suspect that 1500 watts or so at 500hz could actually be more punishing to modern sub driver than at 1500 watts at 60hz, given that the driver excursion stays within xmax. This is because at 500hz the driver won't be moving that much and is not moving any air inside the motor structure. RMS / AES / whatever power rating is mostly heat related power rating anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 3:50am
I believe common sense is in order. If you know you are not going offer a –3 dB point at 60 Hz as the AES graph shows on your LMS, it does not make logical sense to use AES stated wattage as if it is some type rule embedded in stone. The majority of AES papers were written decades ago. It does not take into consideration the evolution of music and how frequencies that were considered very low 30-40 years ago are not good enough in this day and age. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 7:24am
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Except like i posted, that standard has been updated and that graph is incorrect. |
Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 July 2013 at 10:04am
You still need to take into consideration where you are rolling off the bass frequencies in your LMS. Following any type of standard made by someone other than yourself which, may not be how you are actually using the product in question, is bound to have detrimental affects in the long run. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |