long throw - short throw.  First tiem i've ever seen a confused bass bin.

I must confess I know Andy of PAI quite well, so I know his side of it.

(This is not going to be some Stealth-esque scam, please feel free to check my IP address!! I would just like to offer my opinion, and I will try to give it without an obvious bias, but please bear in mind, it is based on him being a mate, and I feel this is a little one sided against him)

Here goes, prepare the Fire Extinguisher....

Basically he imports Chinese made stuff, like everyone else does at this price-point. He uses drivers from some manufacturer in Malaysia, which, in his more expensive ranges, aren't bad. PD/Beyma/BMS they are not, but compared with soundlab, RCL, etc, they are way better, in my opinion.

If someone from soundlab wants to pay for an independent test house to do an A/B comparison test that proves me wrong, I will take it back. But that is half the problem at this price-point. There is not the money/will to afford for such independent proper testing, or a demand from the customer to have such data, as most buying this level of gear wouldn't know what to do with a polar plot, or what 1W/1M SPL actually means or its relevance. The chinese will have waved a cheap SPL meter in front of it, to give a guideline value, and then the marketing machine rolls in and "clarifies" them. This still happens with the high end stuff for god's sakes!! The high end boys just have a more educated PR dept to massage the figures a bit more convincingly. There are numerous discussions on here about amp output powers and distortion levels that Abeltronics, amongst others, have blown out of the water as BS from some very reputable brands.

Andy could do with a spell checker type thing to look out for the howlers though. I concede that a bass bin going as high as 250KHz is a little far fetched. However it could do, if powered by an FFA or radio frequency amp, and he was listing its -130dB roll off points, rather than -3dB or -10dB points. I note it doesn't clarify to what level of precision the frequency range is reported, which annoys me, but so many manufacturers just say this box does 40Hz-20Khz without clarifying whether that is +/- 3dB, or to its -3dB or -10dB roll off points. He is guilty of poorly reporting specifications, but so is most of the rest of the industry at this price point, and even beyond.

This level of gear is all sold by bling and hype, not by genuine graphs and specifications, think why some of this stuff is rated in PMPO! Or those Soundlab Blue boxes, with the Car style plastic lightning grills on. Even seen some with blue LEDS in the grills, must make them sound sooo much better.....

I don't sell his budget range, and have no experience of it, other than briefly glancing at it, at BPM. However the build quality on his more expensive stuff (still budget prices in the overall scheme of things) seems competent enough, and the drivers do the job. We haven't sold much of this either, perhaps 6 boxes in the last 4 years, but I am tempted to stock it, as there is a demand for it, and i think I could make some money from it. IIRC we have sold a few (less than 10) of his amps over the years with no problems. I can't claim to be statistically able to say they are 100% reliable, but I can say the few we sold didn't come back.

His Bullet tweeters are copies of the pyramid stuff, again built in Malaysia. Once Pyramid USA closed down, there was a demand for a replacement, which Andy found in the far east and brought to market. He sells a lot of them. I haven't heard one, so can't comment on performance or longevity, but can only report that he sells a product because people want to buy it. Punter walks into a shop and asks for a bullet tweeter. Andy goes into shop and says look what I sell, bullet tweeters. Shop buys them, punters buy them, and everyone is happy, and Shop, Andy, HMRC et Al make some money.

It would be wonderful if everyone could afford and appreciate why Void/F1/PurpleDot (just to keep mykey happy) kit is good, but only a few can afford this top end stuff, and, sadly, even fewer actually appreciate the differences!!

On this forum, most people could easily tell the difference between the sound from a RES1 and one of those red soundlab boxes, but, all to often, the wider general public don't appreciate the big differences between a £100 box and a £3000 box. "Its just wood, paper and some magnets isn't it? I'll by the one with the blue led on it, must sound better" (Palm Face type thing). 

Andy is a businessman. His first question is not "does it sound good", that comes down the list, perhaps wrongly. He asks a question like "Can I sell them, and make a good margin". The soundboy mk1 product is a prime example. There was a massive demand for it, so he found a way to make it, at a price that he could sell it at. They were actually quite good, so much so, he has launched a better mark 2 version to satisfy the subsequent re-found extra demand. They will sell like hot cakes to the market he is supplying to, as the Mk1s did.

He is purely fulfilling a market segment. I think he does this better than others for the price-point. That is the thing to remember, the market segment he is trying to sell to.

Feel free to flame me as you see fit, i am fairly thick skinned, but please get the idea I am trying to convey, that bang for buck, they ain't too bad at all. If you spend more, you will get better, but at his prices, there isn't much to touch it. 

I would love to sell Nexo/Martin/EAW/F1/Void/ASS etc, but there are so few people with the budget or inclination to spend that much, that I would be out of business waiting for them to turn up. Leaves me retailing the Chinese imports, and trying to dodge the bullets of finding the good budget stuff from the truly awful. Equally many of the high end brands will sell direct to end users, so us dealers are left to make money out of the rest of the market. I can hear you all weeping in sympathy for us dealers.

One thing in Andy's favour, is his backup and support, certainly to us, is good and helpful, certainly given how little of his gear we actually sell!! We may get a preferential edge in that respect, possibly because he is a friend of ours, but I have no reason to doubt he would do the right thing to his other dealers/customers. At this price-point that is important.

I think that one of the reasons he/the company wont come on here themselves, is fear of you guys going all techy on his arse. Lets be honest, when you lot start quoting HornResp parameters and talking about group delay with a handy graph, or how some obscure driver has the right Qes to fit in that cabinet, it can be a little intimidating. Very few on here would actually know enough to question the "Boffins" that roam around this forum, if we're brutally honest. I certainly don't most of the time, but I am here to learn as best I can, and I've only been doing this for 15 years. It is also way outside his market place, I doubt anyone on here would consider doing a copy of one of his cabs, in the way that people lust after Martin or Nexo plans on here.

I will poke a stick at Mykey (in much the same way as a child at the zoo would to a Lion) and ask how many boxes you sell a year? I would guess in advance that PAI sell more, and may even make more money than you! I am not saying PAI sound better than Purple Dot, I am just saying it is simply more orientated to make money from fair cabs and sundries, rather than be the best sounding cabs in the world.

*runs like stink into concrete bunker and cowers waiting for the bombing to start*

Yeah, I can waffle on.....

Sorry mykey, perhaps I didn't get you were chummy ironical mocking only, it is difficult to get dry satire through a text sentence. Can't hear any inflections in your voice through a keyboard!

I thought you may have known him, but wasn't sure.

He's a nice bloke, and I have seen what this forum has done to FFA and Stealth recently, and felt PAI was in danger of getting the same treatment. Bit harsh, as they are not claiming much, certainly not to the extent of patents, etc. None of there gear is going to compete against the high end stuff, but it is not priced to. Just guilty of poor proof reading and reporting vague Chinese specifications as fact.

We still call him the barra' boy round here, but his heart is in the right place, and he is honest as the day is long. He genuinely believes his gear is the best at the price point he sells them for. Yes, some of his range is more 13yr old Bedroom DJ than Pyramid Stage, but there is only one pyramid stage, and rather more 13yr old bedroom DJs. Simple numbers game, the bigger the market you approach, the less market share you need, to actually generate a revenue.

Heck, I remember being 13ish, and my little brother got a pair of the 90s Jamo 1x12" speakers, I was so jealous......But jamo sold a hell of a lot of those cabs.....and there were a lot of happy teenagers....

Remember these -

Yeah, I'm just conscious of how a flippant, tongue in cheek, comment on a forum, is very findable through an internet search, and how this could appear to someone "researching" an intimidation speaker, looking for reviews. Speakerplans is an increasingly respected forum, and could really have some sway on a punters decision. Look how much brown stuff is being flung about around the Stealth and FFA sagas. Some very annoyed manufacturers, and I suspect some confused/put off end users.

Don't forget, that a lot of speakerplans members will also frequent other forums, and cross link "look at this thread, well funny" and it all goes viral.

I'm not for an instant trying to squish freedom of expression, or your rights to air your opinion, plenty of people have died for our right to be free, but I just got alarmed at how it was starting to look a bit one sided. Not a civilized discussion, more a one sided roasting.

I was just trying to provide a balance, a context if you will, and stick up for a mate of mine. For the money they sell for, I still reckon there good, and probably better than equivalent products at equivalent price points.

amss wrote: I know it must be hard to see your mates company taking a bashing but he has chosen to word the marketing and product spec the way it is. You cant then moan when people who know what they are on about cut straight through it. For instance look at the LD Systems stinger 12" cab. They are a budget cab built a to price but they are well designed, built and loaded with decent drivers and consequently get good reviews.

I agree his wording is "poor", and I doubt he has any valid measurements to give anyone, because the chinese will not have given him any to start with. As mentioned previously there is little want/need to spend a fortune on AMS acoustic's time in there anechoic chamber to produce a valid performance graph, at this price point.

I actually hope he reads this thread, so he understands what he has to do to improve his image a bit. Might turn this into something constructive, rather than a piss take out of a salesman trying to write specifications.

I haven't heard the LDS's wooden stuff, so can't really comment, but have sold a lot of their cheap plastic 1x12". They sounded liked they cost. I would imagine there more expensive range would sound correspondingly "more expensive", especially with the superior drivers.

LD System's marketing is a lot more thorough, with a proper glossy brochure, with professionally shot pictures, with some treacles draped across the gear, in very little clothing.

Andy's don't. They should. All he needs to compete fully is better marketing, better quality pictures, some accurate stats, listed correctly, to actually mean something to those who would like to know them. He has got some good products, I concede there are some that I wouldn't touch, but he has plenty of outlets that do.

Attention to marketing blurb must improve. Other than that, I think he's getting it about right for his market place.

Edited for spelling errors, sorry, I'm as bad as Andy!!