Punisher driver! Catastrophic mistake?
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=50050
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 7:16am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Punisher driver! Catastrophic mistake?
Posted By: Bitkrusha
Subject: Punisher driver! Catastrophic mistake?
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 8:31pm
|
Can anyone help? I think I may have bought the wrong drivers. Is there a difference in output between the Ciare 12.00 SW and the 12.00 SWDCNDW? Just taken the drivers out of my old Punishers and the magnets are massive compared to the new ones. It's been so long I'd forgotten what they look like!!! Same basket from what I can tell and they say 1000watts. Really? I'm worried I've just blown 340 quid!! ------------- 11 is one louder!! |
Replies:
Posted By: rich_gale
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 8:34pm
|
uh oh! i got excited when i saw the new model number... looking like a neo version of the 12.00sw. however, very different on paper! ------------- REFLEX ALL THE WAY.... (however, im playing with horns again...) That ok Mister Valiant? :) |
Posted By: Bitkrusha
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 8:58pm
|
Yeah! I've got a horrible feeling I've fucked up. But they're still called Punishers which is what confused me! I'll give em go anyway.....see what happens! ------------- 11 is one louder!! |
Posted By: thoams87
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 4:37am
|
Similar driver to the heavy version just with a neo magnet, the only place i ever see it for sale is at thomann and there is no sign of its existence on the ciare website either. PDF:
http://www.seeburg.net/1200SWdcNdW_dt.pdf - http://www.seeburg.net/1200SWdcNdW_dt.pdf |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 5:31am
| Considering that almost every problem I ever had with Punishers was due to the heat in the rear chamber, I don't think sticking a neo magnet in that enclosed space is going to help... |
Posted By: Bitkrusha
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 7:12pm
|
Hmm! I find it amazing that they both have a similar performance and yet the neodymium one is less than half the weight. I thought the neodymium speakers ran cooler than the ferite ones! That not the case then? Gonna use them anyway.......mainly cos I can't afford to buy another lot! Thanks for all your advice! ------------- 11 is one louder!! |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 19 March 2011 at 4:33pm
|
It's not that they run cooler - it's that the threshold of magnet performance affected by heat is lower. They are much better these days so you can easily have as 'powerful' a driver for half the weight. So long as the cooling is sufficient. Which is also much improved in modern designs over early neo drivers. Your problem with the pun is that it has such a small sealed rear chamber heat does tent to build up. How much this will effect the performance - you're about to find out! Personally I think many of the problems with blowing drivers in the pun is over powering them. ------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 19 March 2011 at 6:09pm
According to Ciare when I spoke to them, the drivers are acoustically identical, but the neo driver is rated at 800W contnuous compared to 1000W for the ferrite -- the reason is mainly the much lower thermal mass of the magnet assembly (heats and cools more quickly), not demagnetisation. Where did you get 2 for £340? I'm about to get 2 from Thomann and they're £205 each... |
Bitkrusha wrote:Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 19 March 2011 at 9:53pm
Agreed, but that's because you just can't put 1000w into them on anything bass heavy without the drivers cooking. Timebomb from Rebel Bass in Lancaster runs his at about 700w max I think and has had no problems. Pretty sure he has aluminium access panels though. |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 19 March 2011 at 10:08pm
|
I kinda doubt the ali access panels are making that much difference, they get warm by the end of the night so there doing something... still need to build that VC temp circuit and find out for sure. If you get a driver that is rated in free air, or in a large ported box, and put it into a small sealed box where the heat cant escape you are going to reduce thermal power handleing. Ive been running them on about 700W and they sit on the limiter for long periods some times but ive not had any burnt out, they can take more mechanically and its a shame not to use it but without knowing how hot there getting i dont want to pus it. That blown one we got off your mate toasty was burnt up at eather end of the the coil, so neather end was getting cooling from the top plate, half the overhang wasent being used. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 11:53am
One of the hazards of running drivers which rely on cone movement to pump lots of air in an enclosure that reduces cone travel (like a horn) and is small and enclosed (like the Punisher). I cooked a McCauley 6174 exactly the same way (burned both ends) driving it with repetitive 25Hz bass in a reflex tuned to 25Hz. All the driver power ratings are tested driven by pink noise in a (relatively) large sealed or vented box, usually 50-100l depending on the driver. In this case the cone moves a lot and pumps loads of cooling air past the coil, hence all the work on coil and spider venting systems. |
Posted By: Bitkrusha
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 12:13pm
|
Wow! It never ceases to amaze me how little I know until i put a post up on here. The upside is, I know considerably more than I ever knew.........if that makes sense. Ian, re the Punishers for £340.00. I don't know why but while I was putting together an order with Thomann the 12.00's were at £205.00, I went and made a coffee, when I came back the price had dropped to £163.00. Needless to say, I jumped on them. The next day they were back up to £205.00. I don't know if it was an input error or something, either way they honoured it! I've had nothing but good experiences with Thomann. Great prices and bloody fast delivery. Due to the fact I've already got the two 12.00SW's I might sell the 12.00SWDCNDW's (brand new, still in box) and buy two more 12.00SW's. If anyone's interested? ------------- 11 is one louder!! |
Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 12:31pm
I'm interested in the DCNDWs -- PM me with price inc. postage and your location, maybe I can collect them. |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 8:48am
1000 watts AES, plus once loaded up the amp is probably seeing a lower than assumed resistance bringing power up even more. I bet on sub heavy music people are really ragging them thinking they are well within limits. The cabs I built for Fred, x8 had no ali panels, 8x had ali panels. I beleave he was running two stacks - powered identically. One side ali panels one side not. He over did it I assume on one occation and lost all the drivers with no ali panels... ali ones survived. Tom ------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 2:11pm
I think Marios still has some Punishers in a venue in Manchester - it might be about hooking them up to a Powersoft amp and seeing what the actual Z value is for the cabinet. |
Posted By: Strange Daze
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 3:08pm
| Sounds after just reading up a fair bit on the Puns, that if I had them, i'd go for a metal access panel (possibly with a foook off heat sink on it) haha |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 3:42pm
|
put one in the mouth, rather than on the side!
------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 8:25pm
|
The problem with putting them in the mouth is the brace is in the way, i did double braces so i could put an ali panel in between them, right behind the pole peice vent, its only a small surface area though so i doubt its doing all that much, was going to have a play about with some heatsinks. The increaseed loading of a cab can only rase impedance not lower it, it would be interesing to measure real impedance but the problem with that is it will change depending on how many you stack, how close to walls you are, if someones stood in front of it etc. so its not all that usefull to have a number that dosent really tally to the real world, i think the best way to know how much power you can give them is to measure VC temp in real time, not sure if the powersofts can do that?... it can be done though..., ill get arround to it one day. ------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 21 March 2011 at 8:31pm
|
You'd probably be able to get a good estimate using real-time measurement of Re and the known ohmic heating constants for copper.
------------- Don't test the champignon sound |
Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 1:37am
|
Thats what im intending to do, run into a data logger so we can plot it over time.
------------- James Secker facebook.com/soundgearuk James@soundgear.co.uk www.soundgear.co.uk |
Posted By: Bitkrusha
Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 8:48am
|
What's the best materialfor the side panels. Ally? Would welding cooling vanes directly to the plate make a difference? As opposed to bolting on pre fab heatsinks! Asuming that's what you mean, of course! ------------- 11 is one louder!! |
Posted By: tomschute
Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 9:11am
would be the ultimate baby sitter for your system ------------- Out to lunch... stableaudio@hotmail.co.uk www.stableaudio.co.uk Speaker Building Services |