Ecler PAM DOA (with pics!)
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Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=51799
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Topic: Ecler PAM DOA (with pics!)
Posted By: soulray2
Subject: Ecler PAM DOA (with pics!)
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 3:48pm
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Despite my best efforts, I have been unable to coax so much as a flicker of life from this amp, yet the guy I bought it from swears it was working just fine before the courier uplifted it! Have changed the fuses and looked for any obvious signs of impact damage or anything loose, but to no avail thus far... Can anyone even suggest where to look next?
All out of ideas here.
   ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Replies:
Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 4:25pm
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To be honest if you have to ask you should really be dropping it in to someone more qualified, you can get quite a nasty shock poking about inside amplifiers even when not connected to the mains if you don't know what your doing (as well as causing more damage).
Is power getting to the front panel Ie does it light up at all? ------------- Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes! |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 4:43pm
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Ditto what Colin has just said,dont fiddle if you dont know what you are doing,it could be fatal.
Is there power going to the on-off switch? is there power coming from the on/off switch to what looks like a board just to the right of it? is there power on that board? is there power going into the transformer? is there power coming out the transformer? etc etc.You will need a tester/meter to check,or someone who knows what he is doing. ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 5:44pm
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Colint & JBLman,
No and No. The front power on/off switch won't light up, and I had thought that a faulty power switch might be the most obvious fault.
I'm not poking around with the power on, and I do have a Fluke multi-meter and power testing screwdrivers to check for current, so i'm just on the right side of total idiot!
 Nonetheless, I appreciate your concern, and think I will take it to someone much more experienced for appraisal/repair.
If you can understand, that I just wanted to eliminate the most basic or elementary of faults, (like blown fuses or a loose connector), before handing it over to an expert.
I have read on here, that these Ecler PAM amps are supposedly a doddle to work on for those in the know, and that they are known to be reliable workhorses. So maybe worth repairing? ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:11pm
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These PAM1400s are easy to work on, the output modules come out on plugs. However that won't be your problem, it will be something simple. If the neon inside the green mains switch isn't on, it will be a very simple fault like blown fuse or wire off. They are built like tanks and very reliable. Yours has obviouly done some work judging by the battle scars! I assume you've checked the obvious like the fuse & connections inside the mains plug? The mains power comes down those blue & brown cables to the front soft start board, out of that onto the mains rocker, and back in, then onto the mains toroidal. The lack of neon light on the switch speaks volumes. ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:19pm
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A common fault on these amps is that the mains switch burns out, check if there is mains on the incoming connections, if not is there any mains getting to the circuit board on the back of the front panel? if there is no mains on that board then you have no fuse in the plug!! DO NOT HURT YOURSELF ------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 7:30pm
 ------------- a wise man changes his mind a fool does not. http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/ |
Posted By: richardhx
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 10:08pm
 worried Current is not what you should be trying to measure at all for these basic check. This could be quite a bad thing to attempt here. Please ensure you are using the voltage range on the multimeter suitable for 240v. Follow instructions as per others. Sorry if you know how to use a MM but getting this wrong is not healthy for you or Amp or MM. ------------- making the word clear |
soulray2 wrote:Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 04 May 2011 at 10:38pm
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You should be able to trace the fault without plugging it in. Do check the bus caps are drained, some can stay up weeks ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 12:20pm
Many thanks for all your suggestions good people.
Looks like you were on the money Steve: there's no power beyond the on/off switch, so that at least, will need to be replaced.
Does anyone on here deal for /with Ecler parts?
Also, can anyone recommend someone in Central Scotland for a proper amp service? Think it's worth having this and another thoroughly serviced/ overhauled. (I was never trying to do someone on here out of Professional business, just wanted to investigate for myself 1st & maybe learn a little.) ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 12:41pm
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Just looking at the photos,that on-off switch doesnt appear anything special,if you can remove and take a photo of it,im sure some one on here will know a stockist of a replacement. ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:37pm
------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:47pm
| get a switch man... |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:48pm
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I think it was just a standard small format rocker switch with a green indicator in it, not an odd size at all. If you are happy to forgo the indicator there should be a pretty wide selection.
------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:28pm
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Have tried taking a pic of the switch, when removed, but it's not that clear.
These are sealed units these switches, so there seems no way to open them up short of smashing them up.
Here's what it reads on the side because it's difficult to make out in the picture:
T85 R19,
6A250VAC RUSSENBERGER Light Country
If anyone can point me to where i may obtain a suitable replacement, I'll be much obliged!
http://imgur.com/6nN6j">  ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 2:22pm
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what size is the panel cutout it fits into? Mik ------------- Warning! May contain Nuts plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc. |
Posted By: Pinyorouk
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 5:07pm
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Did the switch measure open circuit with your multi meter when closed? Just a thought. I was always told to check the obvious |
. I'm sure you'd have checked this by now.Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 5:25pm
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farnell do them and in assorted neon colours! You need the DPST version and of course 240V not 12V ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: M4trix
Date Posted: 07 May 2011 at 7:37pm
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Hi, if my memory serves me right, I think the cutout hole for this switch is 19mm x 13mm. I recommend this switch from Farnell. The contact ratings are 4 Amps but that doesn't matter since the Ecler's soft start unit draws only, approx. 20mA. It's just a simple circuit with 2 relays. http://uk.farnell.com/marquardt/1855-1108-00/switch-dpst-4a-green-illumination/dp/1839495 - http://uk.farnell.com/marquardt/1855-1108-00/switch-dpst-4a-green-illumination/dp/1839495 Datasheet, http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/624892.pdf - http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/624892.pdf |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 08 May 2011 at 1:12pm
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Mik,
The cutout in the front panel is indeed 13 x 19mm, (some memory you have there M4trix!). And thanks to all of you for your suggestions: I'll get myself onto Farnell and order a replacement or 2! ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 08 May 2011 at 1:14pm
Thanks for that too Kedwardsleisure, but since you have piqued my curiosity, what does DPST stand for? ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 08 May 2011 at 1:18pm
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DPST = Double Pole Single Throw 2 single, mechanically linked make/break switched contacts Mik ------------- Warning! May contain Nuts plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc. |
Posted By: Steptone PA
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 12:42pm
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am selling another 2 of these for £120 http://forum.speakerplans.com/2-x-ecler-pam-1400-amplifiers-for-120_topic41855.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/2-x-ecler-pam-1400-amplifiers-for-120_topic41855.html one fully working and one with a board down... u could always use the partially workin one as a spares... ------------- Cloud, Scoop n JBL nut. |
Posted By: M4trix
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 6:58pm
Hm, I presume, shipping to Croatia would be quite expensive?
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Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 17 May 2011 at 3:44pm
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Update: Having replaced the switch, I seem to have tracked the problem down to this:-
http://imgur.com/OTvIW" rel="nofollow">
 I can trace power into the Soft-start, (if that's what it is?), board but not much leaving it into the torus/transformer.
After removing & cleaning the board then reconnecting, it did manage a flicker of a start-up; 1 of the red Protect LEDs came on briefly and and the fan started, but it faded away quickly, and nowt much more heard but a whirr & click from the Relay switches. At least I think that's what the 2 large black components are!
What should be my next step do you think folk? ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 17 May 2011 at 5:58pm
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The problem with my pam 960 was in the softstart/protect board before I sent it to Steve I did change the 2 relays and the amp worked until clipped then it shut down? I found out about the relays by bypassing the speaker wires on the board, when bypassed the amp worked perfectly (but with no protection of course) so I reconnected it all and sent it off to Steve as my knowledge of electronics is limited and I didn't want to electrocute myself  ------------- Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes! |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 17 May 2011 at 7:08pm
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There isnt alot on there is there; check for cracked tracks and joints around the power resistors first (particularly if the seller of the amp told you it worked ok when he sent it..I'm thinking it's been brought on by a rough journey) and then check the components themselves starting with the resistors, capacitors then the diodes. ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 17 May 2011 at 7:10pm
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PS if that's a thermal fuse strapped to the inrush resistors, check that as well. PPS just checked the diagram it is ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 2:47pm
I can't "see" any cracks and the plastic board seems all intact, but truth be told, it would have to be pretty obvious for me to spot the problem(s).
Question: Kedwardsleisure, do you do a postal service? I'm stubbornly determined to get this old girl working again, and since I've already gotten this board out, what say you I post this to you for your expert & professional appraisal? (When all else fails, try flattery!)  ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 2:58pm
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You might like to just post the circuit board to one of us for checking, there are a good few service guys on this forum, save a lot on post. I would be happy to look at it if kedwardsleisure doesn't fancy it.
------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 3:23pm
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And I'd be happy to do so Steve. Thanks for your offer. Like you suggest, we'll give Kedwardsleisure 1st refusal, because I asked him first.
Just to confirm, you do mean the Soft-start circuit board that I already took out to photograph?
If nothing else, I'm learning the basic layout/structure of these old school amps is fairly clear & logical. They're a good place to learn the basics, how the various elements of a power amp work, or should work together. Doesn't mean I can fix it, but at least I've got a better idea of the "alchemy & voodoo" that goes on inside the case!  ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 3:32pm
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Voodoo is about right with a Spanish amplifier! If I were you I would just sent the soft start board with switch as photographed, once that checks out (or otherwise) then you may need to send someone the whole amp, but at least if you have a known good soft start board, at the moment that is the number one suspect and the post will only be a couple of quid, so that is potentially 30 quid or more saved on postage if the fault is at that board. Did you make careful note of all the connections to the transformer etc? ------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 3:54pm
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Took a photo Steve before unplugging it, but it also has the colour code written under each tab connector, for each voltage: 110v thru' 240v. Quite a thoughtful touch really! ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 5:24pm
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Before you post it off, If you have a meter you might want to check the thermal trip, see the 3 green resistors have some white gear on them? In that white stuff is a small component that shuts the amp down if those 3 resistors get too hot. It should look like a silver tube. trace the wires back to the circuit board for measuring, If you have a meter set to ohms range it should show a low value.
------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 18 May 2011 at 7:30pm
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By all means send the board off! If it goes in a jiffy bag, pack it in a way that can withstand a foot. I've had a few jiffy bags with boot prints on them! ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 20 May 2011 at 9:34pm
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I've packed the board inside a box and in a Jiffy bag that could withstand my dainty 15 stone frame, so it should reach you intact!
Posted 1st class today, so should be with you Monday good sir, for you to do your magic!
 Even if I can spot the faults, I have, I must concede, soldering skill worthy a welder on a Clyde shipyard! ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 07 July 2011 at 12:47pm
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The end is within sight I hope ! Having had the soft-start pcb repaired by kedwardsleisure, I've almost got this old girl singing again. There is power going to the channels, but it does show a fault on Channel 2: It goes immediately into Protect at start up and stays there. Further investigation to Channel 2 power module reveals this: http://imgur.com/tOkZp" rel="nofollow">  If you look at the bottom left of the screen, just below the black screwhead, (c122 it says on the board), you can see a component has been snapped off. On the working Channel 1, it is another of the little square blue components you can see elsewhere on the board. Anyone know what they are and where I could get some? ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 07 July 2011 at 12:56pm
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The amp should start without that capacitor connected, you need to be looking elsewhere too I'm afraid as it looks like you have more than one fault. You should be able to find that missing part in the bottom of the box, but it will be the same value as the one in the bottom right ------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 07 July 2011 at 1:19pm
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Sorry Steve, I musn't have been very clear. The amp does start, it's just the red Protect light on channel 2 that stays on after start-up. It's no longer DOA. I did look for the part, in the bottom of the amp case, but I think it may have escaped thru' the front vents, it's very small. ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: M4trix
Date Posted: 07 July 2011 at 3:38pm
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Speaking of which, what was faulty on the soft start pcb? Relay? Regarding the protection mode, can you check is there any high DC on the amplifier output? Edit: How did you manage to snap of that cap? Did you accidentally hit it with something? It can't just snap out by it self.  |
Posted By: soulray2
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 8:59am
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It was the relays that had failed. Well, one failed then quickly caused the other to fail I guess. I believe the cap must have been broken off either during a rough journey enroute to me, or by the previous owner, though he swears it was working fine until the couriers collected it. Wouldn't be the 1st time that's happened! ------------- "Moderation in all things, particularly moderation!" |
Posted By: service dept Steve
Date Posted: 08 July 2011 at 9:33am
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As I was trying to say, that capacitor may have gone missing months or even years ago, it is for power supply decoupling and so it's absence will not prevent the amp from starting and working correctly you will need to look elsewhere for the fault. The trick with fault finding is to gather all the clues, the vendor said it was working, that may or may not be true. If true and the fact that there is certainly one part off the board the next thing to do would be to check all the other parts to make sure they are there, they connected both ends and are not loose (dry joints), if you can't find anything then it looks like you will be sending the module to Kevin for some luvin' ------------- We are not "They", We are "The others" http://www.servicedept.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.servicedept.co.uk - |
Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 09 July 2011 at 9:28pm
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Did you check what I suggested in my email? The driver transistors are the two TO220 transistors at the top of your picture, one on the left and one on the right just ABOVE the fuses, bolted to the main heatsink with phillips screws through a square aperture in the pcb. Your pic clearly shows them. Bizarre as it sounds, the plated-through holes for these can fail meaning the amp module enters protect because the through-hole connections are broken. It is not an easy fault to find unless you have been there, done that before. This is because the leads for the transistors are laid flat and solder just blobbed over them, meaning the plated-through holes are stressed and indeed are left to carry the current alone. They fail if the amp is dropped or roughly handled. As Steve has already said, (I'll repeat it here!!!) the blue cap snapped off shouldn't affect it really and has probably been lost a while. You can look at the one opposite for the type, it will be polyester and the capacitance & voltage will be marked on the top. FOr anyone interested, the softstart board had failed because of the bizarre way it works. The relays on there had open circuit coils. They are 60V DC coils that get their power off the mains via one common dropper resistor and diodes and capacitors. The capacitors had failed open, one coil had gone open meaning the other 60V coil got 110V or so across it, so that failed too. They do it this way to give the relays a delayed action giving the precharge resistors time to do their stuff before being shorted out. It is a cheapskate way to do it but it works..on a good one!! ------------- Kevin North Staffordshire |