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WHY NOT REFLEX?

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: MT122
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the MT122
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=58350
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 5:42am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: WHY NOT REFLEX?
Posted By: airbell
Subject: WHY NOT REFLEX?
Date Posted: 20 October 2011 at 10:01pm
Well i considered this to put it in advanced discussions, but well,
can someone explain why all front loaded mid horn tops are not also reflex loaded?

i mean to put a port from the rearchamber to the front of the box, like a hybrid.....

what are the disadvantages?

phase stuff, delay...?
or is it just simply that most efficient mitrange driver have not enough xmax
to do enough bass for the reflex part?

thx



Replies:
Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 22 October 2011 at 11:24am
There are many aspect to it i would say.
Whether it is an advantage or not to port the rear chamber depends on what one want to achieve.
If the drivers parameters is suited for the use in a ported horn then the result will typically be that the system can go lower when the rear chamber is big and ported but the efficiency up higher will be a little less than the horn with a small closed rear chamber. The response will also typically be a little more uneven. (How much depends on how well the driver is suited and how well the system i tuned.)

An example could be my 2 x 12 exponential horns.



They have a big rear chamber with ports in the front (next to the hf horn). But they also have a kind of a hatch in the back, making i possible to change to a small closed rear chamber. When used in port mode the system is tuned to 70Hz, making it useful as a standalone system in a small indoor environment. But when used outside in 2 or 4 Pi environment, the response gets quite peaky. Then the system can be changed to closed rear chamber giving a much flatter response and about 2db more sensitivity. In this case the horn is only useful to around 100Hz. I usually cross them at 112Hz when used with a closed rear chamber.


Posted By: djeddie
Date Posted: 22 October 2011 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Dref Dref wrote:

...But they also have a kind of a hatch in the back, making it possible to change to a small closed rear chamber...

Clever idea.Clap


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Chas n Dave : it's like Drum and Bass but with beards.             E=mc² ±3dB


Posted By: CCAV
Date Posted: 22 October 2011 at 8:42pm
Nice Cabinets Like the top box. Are these something you want to share?

Will



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In my early years my favorite phrase was "If it's too loud your too old" Now I'm just too old


Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 12:24pm
I am sorry but the only plan i ever made for these where a hand drawing Tongue

I could scan it in for you one day if you like, but that should be in another treadWink


Posted By: CCAV
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 4:09pm
I'm trying to decide on building an MT 122 or MT 130 type of box this would give me another option for either type I'm presently using 6 CBe-18 Cyclops in the sub area. So if you get time please scan It would be very helpful While I'm not great at design I do like to build  But I'm always trying to learn and sooner or later I'll get the design thing down

William




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In my early years my favorite phrase was "If it's too loud your too old" Now I'm just too old


Posted By: CCAV
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 4:13pm
I was always wondering about what to do with all the wasted space around the hi Driver in these designs And this could be a great option



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In my early years my favorite phrase was "If it's too loud your too old" Now I'm just too old


Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 5:48pm
Okay i think i will just post it here. Its still sort of related to the thread.

I changed a few thing on the final design, but here is original drawing:


And then a slightly modified drawing with some measures:
 

They are made with 20mm panels. But if i had to build them again i would use 18mm ply.

The 12" speakers is mounted on a separate detachable baffle with round holes. Originally i would have made them with phaseplugs, but i tried one baffle with phaseplugs and one without and found that the drivers i used didn't go above 1000 Hz that well either way. Therefore i made the the baffles without phaseplugs and used a big 2" driver for the highs. Another reason for using a crossover frequency as low as possible is to keep the dispersion at a acceptable width. These long exponential horns has a very narrow dispersion if crossed over at high frequencies.

I know this drawing isn't enough to build an exact copy of the horns i build, but i wouldn't recommend doing that any way. You should tweak the design to suit your needs. Considering how low they need to go, what dispersion you need, what size you can live with and what drivers you will use.


Posted By: CCAV
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:29pm
Thanks  

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In my early years my favorite phrase was "If it's too loud your too old" Now I'm just too old


Posted By: AndyWave
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 6:32pm
Hi Dref

What drivers you use in your design?

I've done something similar to go with my miss piggy subs. (other 12"in its own cabinet, other 12" with big 1,5" "tweeter" in other cab)

I tried reflex rear chamber, ports on back wall, but didn't like the sound when tuning was high enough to give acceptable level rise in 90-150hz area. Teunos was trying something similar at the same time and he got the sound he liked.

I think that reflex tuning frequency cannot be very near of the tuning of the horn part. Phase response sounded screwed in my experiment, lacking clarity and punch.

To airbell

About the driver parameters, when the horn is bit longer than in MT122, the driver can have more Xmax (2mm vs 6mm) and maybe bit heavier cone (35g vs 50g), more suitable for additional reflex rear chamber. Midrange (<1kHz) sensitivity still keeps up.

These are for example only values in brackets. Look something like 18sound 12ND930, B&C 12NDL76.

Andy


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torturing electrons since ......


Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 23 October 2011 at 7:07pm
Hi Andy

At the moment they are loaded with Kenford PA 12" DYD300B-4-67. It was the driver the horns where design to initially. I have also got some B&C 12PE32, but i have choose to let the kenfords stay because they actually works unbelievably well. One should never trust the specs given for these cheep drivers.Tongue I think they are actually very similar to Eminence kappa 12A.

Actually i haven't tried to tune the ports high because my sims showed that it would give me a big peak in group delay around the all important kick frequencies. I have tuned mine to 70 hz and then i only use them in port mode when i can find some nice corners to place them in.  (this removes most of the dip)

About drivers for this type of ported mid horns. I would recommend not using hardcore horn drivers with very high Bl, because then the dip between the port and horn tuning will get to big. Again, something like Eminence kappa 12A would work well in these designs.


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 25 October 2011 at 7:14pm
Hey Dref,

have to agree its a very nice idea with your tops !
something similar like this i was thinkin about :)

i know hornresp is not good for mid cabs, but do you know what the hell
happens to the phase response if you put a port in it??Confused
i surely dont think its reality what it predicts, but it looks strange....

For the rest it looks exactly what was described here;
little bit more honky ect...

what do you think how many 12" well loaded reflex tops (lets say 1x12") would be necessary
to keep up with a single usb in reality???

and.....are you serious?SmileKenford PA 12" DYD300B-4-67???
Its around ~30€.
Would you really recommend a try for professional usage?

Fritz








Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 25 October 2011 at 8:55pm
Hi Fritz

Do you mean if you put the port output directly in the horn or like I have done?

Problem is I have never heard a usb. But if you mean standard reflexes(no horn) then 3 times as many as a well design hornWink 
If you have usb's then why would you want to extent the response of the 12" horn down low?

About the kenford. I would not recommend it without further testing. I don't trust any of the specs given for itTongue
But I would certainly recommend that one bought a single one and tested it and saw how much abuse it could take. And how well it performed in the intended design. Problem is that I have never had mine out with a bottom end that have had any chance of keeping up with them, so I don't know how they perform under high power conditions.

One thing I can say for sure, which could be an important issue in PA, they will not work forever in high humid conditions, because the cone is not coated.


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 26 October 2011 at 8:17pm
good question,
i always thought if you put your horn parameters in and add ap and lpt (for example 150cm² and 15cm length) it means the port goes outside the horn along the horn to the hornmouth, so the same as your tops in the pictures.
but if it means that the port is at the area where the chassis is placed and aims into the hornthroat
somebody should tell me!!

"But if you mean standard reflexes(no horn) then 3 times as many as a well design hornWink"

what do you mean with that?
that you would need 3x12" horn/hybrid/reflex tops to have the same output than 1xa good 18" only reflex base, or the inverse?Confused

for my calculations you'd need 2 good 12" with good excursion at least 5mm to keep up with a half usb.
and a half usb is around 4-6db louder than a single 18" reflex box between 70 and 200hz...
just wondered if its the same in real life with the 12"reflex horn tops vs usb.

is about i want to make my system bigger, have already 4 mt121 tops and was considering to save  space and money to make them reflex and let the usbs..
subs are good up to 80hz.


ahh sounds really interesting with the kenfords and maybe i ll order one  too in the future, made me curiousSmile,
but not now...

cheers



Posted By: Dref
Date Posted: 26 October 2011 at 9:07pm
"i always thought if you put your horn parameters in and add ap and lpt (for example 150cm² and 15cm length) it means the port goes outside the horn along the horn to the hornmouth, so the same as your tops in the pictures."

You are exactly right.Smile

But when it comes to phase issues one has to consider the distance from port output to the horn output. (~0 in this case) Path difference can be adjusted in Hornresp under combined response.

One thing that is also very important is the lenght of the rear chamber. (Quite long in my case, and that gives rise to some cancellation. Which is less dominant when used in a corner.)



"But if you mean standard reflexes(no horn) then 3 times as many as a well design hornWink"

- That was because I was not sure what you where asking. But I think that I understand now.

Making your mt121 ported will not be able to replace your usb's. My horns is a double 12" and longer than the mt121. And they can't do kick in reflex mode anywhere near as good as proper kickbins.

The only time I use mine in port mode is for small things indoor, where they are used as standalone for non bass heavy music. Or with a single dedicated sub for other music styles.




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