Punisher Horn build
Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: Plans
Forum Name: Punisher and X-tro
Forum Description: Discussion / Questions about the Punisher and X-tro
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=607
Printed Date: 27 March 2026 at 12:39am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Punisher Horn build
Posted By: Contour
Subject: Punisher Horn build
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 1:37pm
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Hello guys, Check the following design: http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?show=tekening&constructieID=21&sel_lang=nl - http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?show=tekening&const ructieID=21&sel_lang=nl You can see pictures of the prototype here: http://www.tweakers.net/gallery/112204/fotoalbum/?MapID=3585 - http://www.tweakers.net/gallery/112204/fotoalbum/?MapID=3585 We played a test cd with some strong bass, one time the whole cabinet moved more than an inch back due to the pressure generated at te front! The Punisher was louder that the BR-118 loaded with 18Sound 18LW-1400. One Punisher could keep up with the two EV tops (Punisher playing 45-80Hz) We used a RAM BUX3.4 on the sub delivering a full 1700W (clip leds on sometimes) at the 12 inch Ciare driver (4 ohm variant) The Ciare did seem to like some more... I take your advise serious Rog, we drive them loud until we smell the coils burning (too bad this didn't happen ;-) Best regards, Walt |
Replies:
Posted By: whitehousejamie
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 2:57pm
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Can you cross it over at more than 80hz? |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 3:35pm
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Yes, this is possible they run up to 150Hz or even higher! We found them best sounding crossing at 80 or 100Hz. They sound very deep for a single compact hornsub they are only 285 litres! Best regards, Walt |
Posted By: Rog
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 6:17pm
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Hi, Pro Audio Parts sells all Ciare drivers including the 12.00SW used in the Punisher Horn. Rog. |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 6:43pm
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An inportant EAW designer gave this comment on the Punisher horn (see EAW forum): The Ciare part is quite good for a horn load - high Bl and strong cone. Would benefit from a triple-roll type surround found on other Ciare designs thouigh. Best regards, Walt |
Posted By: PoteirosCorp
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 8:51pm
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Newbie here. Hey Contour, do you know an alternative driver (on DAS, BEYMA or EMINENCE, it´s not for the price, it´s just I´m from Mexico and this are the easiest to get here) for that punisher Thanks for the input ---------------------- |
Posted By: davey t
Date Posted: 20 September 2004 at 11:42pm
| Looks a hell of a lot like a single driver version of a LAB horn. Why don't you try an Eminence LAB12 in there? seems like an obvious answer. I guess the Ciare driver is stronger tho? |
Posted By: loophole
Date Posted: 21 September 2004 at 1:56am
| or some nice ciare driver in a LAB? |
Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 21 September 2004 at 11:15pm
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The LAB sub won't take speakers with higher BL than the LAB12. In fact, Tom Danley LOWERED the speced BL for the driver after some experiments (The LAB12 drivers was specifically made for that LAB sub and the specs were defined for exactly that horn....). That means the original driver had too much BL and it wasn't even next to 20... The Ciare can be a very good horn driver, as long as the horn is 'optimized' for it. The Punisher would be I guess.... |
Posted By: loophole
Date Posted: 21 September 2004 at 11:55pm
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sorry, yeah i know you can't just whack any old driver in a horn and expect it to work great, was just a bit of excited speculation...
when you say 'not even next to 20' i assume you mean it was higher... interesting that the lab needs a driver of such (relatively) high compliance given the length of the horn. what factor counters this relatively looseness of suspension in the driver? is it that it only produces subbass frequencies and can afford to be a little slower? please explain some more :) |
Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 22 September 2004 at 8:37am
| What many people forget when looking at the BL figure, is to see it in relation to Re. Motor strength is often said to be BL/sqrt(Re), which puts many 4 Ohm drivers in a different light than their 8 Ohm counterparts. Otherwise everybody would be using 16 Ohm drivers. |
Posted By: nightline
Date Posted: 22 September 2004 at 7:07pm
Have a look at the Beyma 12 Xmax speaker, this one maybe usefull.
Kind regards
Jack |
PoteirosCorp wrote:Posted By: loophole
Date Posted: 22 September 2004 at 11:48pm
| ugh (again!) i don't know what i was talking about, i for some reason read BL as Qts - once again my question is no longer relevant. dunno why i keep on doing this these days.... too much beer most likely... |
Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 25 September 2004 at 12:44am
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No, I meant the BL is way below 20.
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Posted By: flashy
Date Posted: 02 October 2004 at 10:08pm
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hi,does anyone have any specs on the punisher horn.How does it compare with other horns interms of efficiency eg the hd15,the 186. The punisher has a fairly long path ,Rog would you use such a horn in long throw application and in situations where high spl is needed eg outdoors. I am very interested in the design and I am just wondering if there is anyone who can offer some critique for or against the design. Thanks. ------------- roger dan |
Posted By: freddyi
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 5:15am
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check out the forum - like to see ground-plane of prototype and find out how that Ciare is holding up "if" typed correct link then will lead to some graphs (assume predictions) http:/www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36 - http:/www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36 |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 7:31am
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freddy it almost worked-when u click the link its wrong tho http://www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36 - http://www.speakerstore.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36 Looks like AJ horn simulation. Note the high cutoff. Efficient High F3 subhorn,as i expected due to HIGH bl 12" ! This isnt a 'single driver labhorn' This is completely different :-) 40hz is ~ -10db at the end,some one asked about the lab12 on it,probably wont work. Lab 12- low Bl,low compression ratio,short horn Ciare- high BL high compression ratio,long horn the 1kw power handling could be handy-aslong as power compression isnt 9db anyway Cheers!
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Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 7:39am
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I dont know about the XMAX beyma 12 but the LX60 looks similar. + they list the power compression figure
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Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 7:43am
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wow check out the driver search utility on that site-you can easily find drivers of similar spec! http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?show=speaker - http://www.speakerstore.nl/index.php?show=speaker Bl Vas Power Cost Qts Diameter Brand!
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Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 7:56am
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My guesstimation. Looks prety good!!! Mouth 2700cm^2 Throat ~ 185cm^2 Length ~2.35metre F3 43 hz Horn loaded at ~50hz.Aslong as the driver is linear,no problems :-) The Small mouth only drops efficiency slightly.The only thing id do,is fold it S style so that the driver is easily accessable eg- Cheers!
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Posted By: JD01
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 2:25pm
| The LAB horn isn't what I would call 'short'. It is rather long.... |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 2:43pm
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Oops i missed the all important shortER part! the labhorns 2.8metres long from memory |
Posted By: freddyi
Date Posted: 03 October 2004 at 2:59pm
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hey mike how come sim for Punisher in McBean showed diff (higher) SPL than one (AJ?) by Frederik? - were both for 2.83vrms? seems lilke prototype used 4 ohm ciare S fold be nice to load driver without screaming! - how would folding change box aspect for ~fixed bulk? - would V-wedge throat in S-fold work better than V ramps at very top of response? best wishes Forum prediction in August http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/PH.jpg - http://home.earthlink.net/~buddhaboy2/PH.jpg |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 04 October 2004 at 1:23am
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Il check up if i used 8ohm or what :-) mine was jsut a guesstimation of it anyway. The bulk wont change-the only issue perhaps-is having a Vrc which is too large-because this driver only watns ~20-40litres,and with a big wide horn i may have too much behind it,so partition required,which means waste-or i could minimise the width more,thereby making the horn taller,but not wasting any space ! Thats why the Jbl 15" etc enjoy the S fold-often times they require the large Vrc 60L + anyway so no volume is wasted. The punisher horn has a V wedge throat-but those partitions minimise the Vtc maximising top end-but by that time the horn width + panel resonance are coming into play anyway |
Posted By: Søren Dyhr
Date Posted: 07 October 2004 at 8:23pm
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I hold no degree in science, but have noticed that the Ciare unit exists in
a twin coil version as well. Could the two be paralleled with a resulting impedance of 2 ohm instead of the 8 ohm when coubled in series? It could be neat, if it works - in a single bin setup.... The benefit I could see was better utilization of amp power. --sd |
Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 07 October 2004 at 8:56pm
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Horns are generally meant to be used in stacks. If you use smaller
stacks than recommended, it is usually a wise idea to also high-pass
them 1/3 an octave or so above fc to prevent the driver from bottoming
out too easily. IIRC the Ciare driver's Xdamage isn't too much beyond
it's x-max, so this might be a dangerous game to play if you intend to
give them a hiding. This is also the reason why a couple of LAB drivers
have been known to tear before emminence re-inforced the driver's
surrounds. Horn's don't distort nearly as much as their direct
radiating counterparts so the limit can come quite unexpectedly quickly. Martin |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 8:50am
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Hi martin- I didnt notice the Xmech figure on this driver. Isnt the Xmech oneway of the lab12 22mm? this is about 2x the xmax,surely thats plenty! But a leaky sealedbox,33hz sine,and 2kw wont help matters |
Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 9:04am
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Yeah I was referring to the Ciare driver. The LAB in the punisher might be an alternative. This looks like a very, very nice and compact horn, but I'd want a stack of 4 to go down to 40Hz and have a flare rate that's sufficiently low enough to allow this thing to go even lower in a stack of 8, so it's S-fold for me. Martin |
Posted By: freddyi
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 3:59pm
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Hi Martin - how much of 40Hz 2pi do your predict will the dubsuction horn wil get as single and in side-by-side pair? wish could get Contour online - think in ways he preferred old Karlson with 18" Craaft (or 15" Beyma) to B36 or maybe SL36 CV horn - but seems like did good compromise overall on Punisher - wonder how Ciare 12SW holds up? - run ~$165US Best, Freddy |
Posted By: Contour
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 4:46pm
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Hello Freddy, I don't answer all the time but I try to read al the topics over here! We had the small CV bin (62x62x92cm) loaded with RCF L18P300 but this was not as good as the K15 loaded with AA-Craaft. Then we build the larger CV bin using 22mm MDF and this sounded a lot better than the smaller version with thin wood. I think a Punisher can cope with a CV bin (although the CV bin is much bigger: 92 x 92 x 62cm vs 82 x 70 x 50cm) A Punisher will throw the sound as a Karlson will not... Best regards, Walt |
Posted By: Timber_MG
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 8:34pm
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My sims were lost on a flash disk (spring music festival, lotsa
alcohol) but what I recall is that that a single was alright to 45 and
then a sharp drop-off. Quater space showed useable response to 40 and a
stack of 4 went a touch under 40. If I were to use it for home use I'd
use a larger rear chamber and an even smaller mouth though. Mike has
right of ownership to the honey I shrunk the horn device though and has
come up with soem very interresting configurations in the past ;-) Martin |
Posted By: freddyi
Date Posted: 12 October 2004 at 9:08pm
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Hello Contour - maybe I 'should' save up for the Ciare :^) do you think the Karlson had about same throw as a bandpass box? - I have Sigma 18 in a K15 variant - four might do a small club - it only weighs about 25-30kg. CV EL36 are inexpensive in US - but don't know quality/flex of their plywood - original B36 had - IIRC, a path so short that I could touch the 18" cone - so cone fired at back of cabinet rather than at bottom . Best Wishes, Freddy Hello Martin/Timber_MG - 45 would be plenty strong for home use, like basshorn to rattle to 500 - be thrilled with 50-55Hz flat in-room bottom - maybe a University Classic? Best, Freddy |