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measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000

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Topic: measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000
Posted By: airbell
Subject: measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000
Date Posted: 29 December 2011 at 7:58pm
Hello,

i wanted to share some interesting measurements
a colleague and me did yesterday.
we used a konstantan-wire to simulate 2x4ohm resistors.
it keeps pretty well its resistance constant even at high temperatures,
and we cooled it with oil.
we measured only sinus, coz we are sure the lab does its 13000watt burst,
also the pc the oscilloscope was connected with was too slow to follow.

we measured 30hz, 50hz, 1khz and 16khz.
results for 50hz were

proline:          2x1850watt sinus @ 4ohm
lab gruppen:  2x1764watt sinus @ 4ohm (after ~1second)


now the interesting part:
power consumption:

proline 3000: 5000watt, 6500VA

lab gruppen 13000: 4000watt, 6000VA

peaks of power consumption were higher, but we measured just before clipping.
at the end the fuse of the proline came and the power switch at the front panel
has broken.
even if both amps had limiters, it was possible to get a very unnice looking
curve without hitting the input level too high.

this measurements are no 100%precise laboratory results,
but we tried hard to get as good results as possible.


now i was wondering a lot about the power consumption...
if you caltulate with the effective power (watts)
it all makes sense, the proline has a good efficience of
2x1850watt / 5000watt =0,74 =74%
and the lab gruppen
2x1764watt / 4000watt =0,882 = 88,2%.

but actually, if you consider how much you can get out of
an 16a fuse or a generator, you have always
to calculate with the appearing power (VA).

VA of both amps was almost the same.
and thats what suprised me a lot.

no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,
more peak power, so will do actually in any case louder than
the proline, but if its about powerconsumption in VA
they are almost the same for the same output,
and i would have never expect that.

best regards



Replies:
Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 29 December 2011 at 8:33pm
how did you test the power consumption?

-------------
a wise man changes his mind a fool does not.
http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 29 December 2011 at 8:54pm
the guy i did the test with had a device for it.
we put it directly before 230V ac input of the amps.
if you want to know which exactly i
have to ask him for the brand and type again, but it is a pretty good one!

only thing i may add is that the voltage dropped down to 217V during the test.



Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:19am
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:


no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,


Why do you say that?

The LabG spec says 4400wpc @ 4 ohm stereo. Confused

I'd be pretty p*ssed off if my sub amp on bench could only muster approx 1800W per channel, as opposed to published spec of approx 4kwpc @ 4 ohms. Dead

But then, I suppose many "lie weight" manufacturers are doing this very thing... LOL


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:34am
How did you measured the output? Did you just took the output voltage and then used the 4 ohm load to calculate it?

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:36am
With respect, this is starting to sound like a stuck record.

As everybody knows, the lab gruppen is designed to deliver high dynamic peaks of power, as is required for any music programme containing any kind of dynamic range

even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs

I realise that your requirements for power are somewhat more demanding than is the norm, however you must realise that large manufacturers like lab have to build amps designed to work optimally in their target market - in this case the pro end of the touring and installation market. Unfortunately, the roots / sound system sector is not where they are aiming this kind of amplifier.


with the aim of "putting my money where my mouth is" however, being a  long term lab user myself, and quite happy in my belief that labs can play bass as well as anything else i have ever used, im happy to offer a fully lab loaded drive rack to any sound system who wants to try it out, we me in attendance of course.


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

With respect, this is starting to sound like a stuck record.

As everybody knows, the lab gruppen is designed to deliver high dynamic peaks of power, as is required for any music programme containing any kind of dynamic range

even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs

I realise that your requirements for power are somewhat more demanding than is the norm, however you must realise that large manufacturers like lab have to build amps designed to work optimally in their target market - in this case the pro end of the touring and installation market. Unfortunately, the roots / sound system sector is not where they are aiming this kind of amplifier.



I was really talking in comparison to something like QSC PL9, or PL6.0. Embarrassed

Both rapidly gaining reputation for doing what they say on the tin, even with 3-4 PD1850s per channel.

The old stigma about lightweights not being able to do roots sub, is now more about needing lighweight rated approx 1.5x -2x equivalent torroidial for 4 ohm load.



-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:32pm
Never heard the real lab,but the.copy 13000 I heard had 3 x fane 1500s a side and delivered without clipping and is 750 delivered
Inc shipping and import.duty!!!!yes it may pop but may be worth the risk!!

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by paulus paulus wrote:

Never heard the real lab,but the.copy 13000 I heard had 3 x fane 1500s a side and delivered without clipping and is 750 delivered
Inc shipping and import.duty!!!!yes it may pop but may be worth the risk!!


<Off Topic>, I'm sure Fane 1500s would also sound nice in my protos.. LOL


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: paulus
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:53pm
Any pics of these beauts lev,?'

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TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

How did you measured the output? Did you just took the output voltage and then used the 4 ohm load to calculate it?


yes thats what we did.

we took the rms voltage ² divided by the resistance.

we also checked the resistance directly after measuring to check if the heat doesnt affect
it.

"even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs"

sorry but that is not true.

you are right that even heavy drum and bass has a little dynamic range, but for some tracks its almost nothing.the difference between a sine and some drum n bass tracks is almost nothing.

i wrote that the lab is better because its obviously.thats why a second hand lab is still
several times more expensive than a brand new tamp 3000.
i think for 95%of the applications the high peak power of the lab gruppen makes really sense.
i tested only 1 lab gruppen for my 16x ciare 12sw horn loaded subs (which are similar to a half eaw bh760) and it was unbelievable how much the amp pushed the speakers while playing some nice rock and pop tracks.

but as soon as i played some nice drum n bass tracks the PAL turned it down, was still pretty nice but i noticed that the speakers could have take a lot more.

even with electro in generell or every track where you have a "longer" bassdrum the amp couldnt deliver its rated output, but something in between.

i think the measurements were correct, as its written on lab specs that the PAL limits the output power down not to hit the 16a circuit breaker.

actually its all about what you want to do, if you do touring with rock and pop bands, or techno, i think the lab gruppen is perfect. if you have 16speakers like me you take 2 of them, each on an own 16a circuit, and on the third you put your mid/high amps and maybe the mixing pult.

if you do often drum and bass and dubstep, or want to build a big soundystem for a huge cinema,
i would take several tamp3000s coz actually this amp is really underrated.
dont forget that the peak power of the tamp is also higher than the sine,
no question its not as much as the lab gruppenSmile




























Posted By: Smiter
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 2:16pm
I'd say for the cost of one of those labs, you could buy quite a few of the prolines!


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Smiter Smiter wrote:

I'd say for the cost of one of those labs, you could buy quite a few of the prolines!


Thumbs Up




Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 4:02pm
few years back , when I said Labs were great amp , some said they were shit, i got some Matrix from Andy Great amps too , some peeps said they couldn´t do nothing , i think it´s also back in 2006 or something I asked about Ram amps , no one was using them really , most talked about the Tubby amps which are really not Uk amps , any that doesn´t matter ,I don´t know what you measured  Pinch but there´s something wrong with it , you can´t compare these 2 amp power-wise, weight-wise yes the proline weighs a ton , price-wise Labs cost more , and have 6years warranty , what do the proline give you for the cheap price , after sells  , no matter where you are Lab will get you your spares just like Andy and David with the Asian amp Confused I don´t know don´t think so. forgot to add Void who I know go far to get you spares on time ,A warranty/A guarantee given to the purchaser by a company stating that a product is reliable and free from known defects and that the seller will, without charge, repair or replace defective parts within a given time limit and under certain conditions. Thats why we buy Labs
Check your results again please


-------------
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk


Posted By: king david
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 4:43pm
did proline survive the test? looks like it didnt or am i wrong? maybe its just the fuse but what if it happens in the middle of a concert?
lab is very expensive, very reliable, people who spend money on labs have rental companies, PAs or fancy clubs, they would not buy the proline amps for big concerts or dances, and i can understand why,lab has a lot of burst power, its reliable, it sounds good and its rider friendly.
if they do a lot of dance/dub/dubstep/d&b events and 1 lab on sub isnt enough they would get 2. if you're doing just a few gigs, or mostly smaller parties, then labs can be too expensive and a cheaper amp can do the job easily...


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http://www.warriorcharge.noblogs.org


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 5:30pm
david, thats what im thinkin tooSmile

proline survived.
its what you said it was the fuse.
but!the power switch at the front panel has broken.

i put a new one in and everything works fine.






Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

fe ,I don´t know what you measured  Pinch but there´s something wrong with it , you can´t compare these 2 amp power-wise,


Why not ? Forget paper specs.. sine wave signal & bench test doesn't lie... LOL

I've seen Matrix, PKN,  clip into 4 ohm stereo load, even though both rated at approx 3-4kwpc * 4 ohms, where as the Inf8MK2 was able to bash the same load without getting out of bed, despite being rated at only 2.5kwpc @ 4 ohms. LOL

Yes, LabG are reliable, great sounding amps. But they don't do their specified power. Big deal, lightweights not performing to spec on the bench, when fed 40-50hz sine wave, what else is new ?

When funds allow, "a certain lightweight" will be replacing my big iron amp..
One which can play "certain music material",  at 2ohm stereo, across big man drivers, without sounding weaker than torroidial amps.

IMHO, only 2x lightweight amps on that list, and I can afford 1x of them.Embarrassed





-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 7:53pm
What lightweight amps do when "tested"on a bench,Wink

http://forum.speakerplans.com/a-decent-lightweight-amp-at-last_topic24766_page3.html" rel="nofollow - http://forum.speakerplans.com/a-decent-lightweight-amp-at-last_topic24766_page3.html

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:


As you can see, there is no escaping the Ohms Law.

230 Volts, 16.8 A = 3864 watts or, 1932 watts per channel under long-term conditions @ 2 ohms.

 

http://dedics.co.uk/temp/class_D_sustained_power.jpg" rel="nofollow">






levyte357

Do you remember when I told you nothing beats a high current amplifier when driving low impedance loads?

If you read the chart Powersoft claims 1500 watts per channel in a 2-ohm load (3000 total) under long-term conditions. Both measurements match perfectly. However for the person who thinks this amplifier will put out 12,000 watts continuous the laws of physics says no.

Best Regards,



-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

david, thats what im thinkin tooSmile

proline survived.
its what you said it was the fuse.
but!the power switch at the front panel has broken.

i put a new one in and everything works fine.








wasn't there another thread this week where someone said the switches on 3 of his proline amps had failed? what's up with that?


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by levyte357 levyte357 wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

fe ,I don´t know what you measured  but there´s something wrong with it , you can´t compare these 2 amp power-wise,


Why not ? Forget paper specs.. sine wave signal & bench test doesn't lie...

I've seen Matrix, PKN,  clip into 4 ohm stereo load, even though both rated at approx 3-4kwpc * 4 ohms, where as the Inf8MK2 was able to bash the same load without getting out of bed, despite being rated at only 2.5kwpc @ 4 ohms.

Yes, LabG are reliable, great sounding amps. But they don't do their specified power. Big deal, lightweights not performing to spec on the bench, when fed 40-50hz sine wave, what else is new ?

When funds allow, "a certain lightweight" will be replacing my big iron amp..
One which can play "certain music material",  at 2ohm stereo, across big man drivers, without sounding weaker than torroidial amps.

IMHO, only 2x lightweight amps on that list, and I can afford 1x of them.





I have not measured less than 2 * 2650Watts/4R on 30Hz CONTINUOUS SINE from my PKN XD6000s

and these Pkn ams NEVER CLIP just reduce the gain factor, probabily this is what you saw.


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:



I have not measured less than 2 * 2650Watts/4R on 30Hz CONTINUOUS SINE from my PKN XD6000s

and these Pkn ams NEVER CLIP just reduce the gain factor, probabily this is what you saw.


Pure impedance on a bench, is easier to drive, than 2x 18" speakers per channel, with impedance curves, and reactive impedance.

IIRC, the ITECH 8 and PL380 were all also clipping whilst driving the 2x 1850s per channel.

Only amps not clipping were the K10, & Inf8Mk2.

Current draw was not a problem, as the Inf8Mk2 was able to draw 19A at one point, whilst driving Turbomax drivers.


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 12:47am
Your comments make no sense whatsoever.

Just because an amp could be made to clip / nto clip means what exactly? 

Every amp can be made to clip, if you push it hard enough. 

"I've seen XXXX brand clip into 4R" ...  so what? ... how much was it putting out when it began to clip, thats whjat matters, oh wait ... you didn't actually measure that? uh huh ... means nothing then.


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My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker.
Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ...


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:34am
Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:


Just because an amp could be made to clip / nto clip means what exactly? 

Every amp can be made to clip, if you push it hard enough. 


I see. Thanks for that.

So please explain, if amp A is rated at substantially higher power output at 4 ohms than amp B, why would amp A clip or thermal, before driving the speaker load, anywhere near as hard as amp B?


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 3:20am
How do you know Amp A was driving the speakers less hard than Amp B?  Please explain exactly how you made the measurements.


-------------
My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker.
Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ...


Posted By: Tony Wilkes
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 9:30am
Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

How do you know Amp A was driving the speakers less hard than Amp B?  Please explain exactly how you made the measurements.


That's simple because it sounds louder!!! The fact that this could be because of distortion anomalies or plain driver noise does not seem to bother anyone.

I have said many many times if the sound of a clipped Proline (or anything similar) driving an 1850 well outside its linear region* floats yer boat then that's fine with me but please do not try to tell me that this is audio nirvana.

* the much remarked growling noise

Tony



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www.forteaudio.eu - BMS - db-Mark Processors - Lexon (SAE)


Posted By: The Builder
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:13am
Hold on folks, one amp is 450 quid, has a three year colect & return. The other amp is the price of a car and has six years better warranty.
 One is Chinese, that makes it possible to be that cheap.
We really should support the Euro amp(s), but we have small pockets.
Back in the day there were import laws and duties to stop this happening.
Now we have free trade.
Both amps have a place in todays world, the touring company and the skint sound guy.
Why even bother measuring?
They both make loud noise, to suggest that there is a comparison is like comparing a Lotus 7 to a Lambo. Both do 60 in 4 secs, which would you rather have if you had the money?
 
IMHO
Happy New YearYing Yang
 


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It just is.


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:19am
Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

How do you know Amp A was driving the speakers less hard than Amp B?  Please explain exactly how you made the measurements.


Was audibly more SPL,  air movement, and room vibration from the subs when Amp B was powering it.

Person also operating the system also said out of all the amps tested, amp B  amp C could easily have blown the entire sub stack, with the headroom remaining, where as the other amps were out of headroom, all hitting clip lights and thermalled, or were about to thermal.

The PD1850s were the "easy" part of the test, everyone who knows about Turbomax drivers, will tell you, only a handful of amps can power 2x Turbomax 1500s per channel properly, without "losing" their lunch.


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: andyamp
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:29am
Now we have free trade.


-------------
a wise man changes his mind a fool does not.
http://www.matrixamplification.com/ - http://www.matrixamplification.com/


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:30am
Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

How do you know Amp A was driving the speakers less hard than Amp B?  Please explain exactly how you made the measurements.


That's simple because it sounds louder!!! The fact that this could be because of distortion anomalies or plain driver noise does not seem to bother anyone.

I have said many many times if the sound of a clipped Proline (or anything similar) driving an 1850 well outside its linear region* floats yer boat then that's fine with me but please do not try to tell me that this is audio nirvana.

* the much remarked growling noise

Tony



The above reference to 1850s is regarding the Southall amp test. No Prolines were present there, just a number of lightweights and the Inf8MK2.

The 1850s were not pushed outside their linear region or to "growling" point, as Ren never pushes his sytem that far. Was quite obvious, only the Inf8MK2 and K10 were able to push the 4x subs to a certain SPL level, without clipping/thermalling.

Relevance of this in this thread is, as stated previously, Inf8MK2 costs less, and output power rating was lower than ALL  the  lightweight amps present at the test, however with the exception of the K10, NONE of the lightweight amps present were able to power the subs as well as the Void.


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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:32am
Has anyone done a set of tests to see what the VI and phase angles are for the PD1850 and Turbomax drivers loaded into their cabs?

The reason I ask is that in a couple of threads earlier this year, I investigated both different Amplifier types for their ability to handle adverse power factors presented by loads and in another thread the measurement of some drivers to assess what they present to Amplifiers in terms of Power Factor.
Power Factor is a measurement of how much extra power is dissipated by the Amplifier and doesn't get to actually powering the 'Speaker... in simple terms.
VI phase differences can cause other issues with Amplifiers as well.

I suspect that the same sort of differences will go a long way to answering the point about only some Amplifiers being able to drive certain 'Speaker loads.....
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:34am
right - i need to hear / see what i am doing wrong, as i use 1 lab plm14,000 to drive 4 b&c 21" 150's to within a mm of their lives on a regular basis. Without constant monitoring or careful use of voltage limiters it is easy for the amp to pole pate the drivers.

If the amp can do this to 2Kw, 6 inch coil drivers with heavy 21"cones, i would like to see what it could do with the same number of 18" turbomax units a side. Obviously the drivers are loaded in a different way, and the variables are considerable, but i still want to see the difference.

Lev - get it organised!


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:38am
Originally posted by The Builder The Builder wrote:

Both amps have a place in todays world, the touring company and the skint sound guy.


+1

Originally posted by The Builder The Builder wrote:


Why even bother measuring?


Because some believe the "figures" some lightweight amp manufacturers publish, and refuse to accept they are not actually defying the laws of physics, by outputting more power than is input, and not actually placing approx 3-4K per channel, into each pair of 800w drivers. LOL

It also illustrates that not all Chinese torroidial amplifiers are crap, or lie about their specs. As a wise man on here once said.Wink


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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 10:54am
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

right - i need to hear / see what i am doing wrong, as i use 1 lab plm14,000 to drive 4 b&c 21" 150's to within a mm of their lives on a regular basis. Without constant monitoring or careful use of voltage limiters it is easy for the amp to pole pate the drivers.

If the amp can do this to 2Kw, 6 inch coil drivers with heavy 21"cones, i would like to see what it could do with the same number of 18" turbomax units a side. Obviously the drivers are loaded in a different way, and the variables are considerable, but i still want to see the difference.

Lev - get it organised!


Obviously, not all lightweight amps are made equal. Wink

The LabG FP "copies", are a testimony to the power and low frequency performance of the authentic LabG FP series..

Maybe possible for Ren/Tweeter Box to arrange another Southall "Roots system lightweight amp test", but only if this time, MC2, FFA, LabG, and Matrix amp with model no are present.




-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:05am
Re: "Without constant monitoring or careful use of voltage limiters it is easy for the amp to pole pate the drivers."

Am of the opinion that voltage limiting isn't the answer since the current can be doing some 'nasty' things long before any voltage limiting occurs.

A pic of a 'scope image showing a nice clean output voltage from an amplifier with a very distorted current waveform at the same time (Center trace) when driving a 'Speaker:


Now with a good set of results for the real load the 'Speaker presents to an Amplifier; then this sort of thing can be predicted.

A bit divergent from the OP for this thread but nevertheless relevent to where the discussion has moved to.
Mik



-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:15am
i only know through practical experience that the maximum peak voltage limiters are the most effective form of safety limiting when systems ae being pushed hard. Whether or not it it is technically correct, in practice it is the best option on these units

It is only a last stage resort, used in situations where sound quality is not of prime importance, where sheer output is what is demanded. In quality lead situations, where i or one of my engineers is in control, i tend not to set any kind of limiting at all, even, as we do, when driving small fills like void mycro 6's from plm14,000 channels.

its a good 10 years at least since i have burnt a driver of any sort, so im obviously doing something right.


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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:19am
for your tests, please dont forget it depends a lot about the music you are playing!!
as i wrote at the beginning, on the picture you can see i powered 16 12" ciare horn speakers with 1 lab gruppen 13000 for real world testing, what is far too less actually, but when i played some rock tracks with a real short and punchy bassdrum it was unbelievable how much it kicked and hard to get the power average limiter on. electro/techno music and some other stuff, even rock tracks with a slower deeper bassdrum were the "medium" where you could notice the amp doesnt get enough current.the "lowest" output i had with drum n bass.seems logical, that was what i expected, experienced and measured after.on the one hand it seems ridiculous to have an amp good only for a certain kind of music style, on the other side i would have need almost 4 prolines for the same output at rock music, because they dont do this huge peak power.actually im considering to buy another lab 13000 or to sell mine and buy 4 prolines.no hard decision you will say, but unfortunately money for me is a big issue...and yes, i did the measurements to prove the limited long therm output and i think they are quite realistic if you think about the 230v x 16a. Smile
Happy new year!


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:47am
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

for your tests, please dont forget it depends a lot about the music you are playing!!


Oh yeah... LOL


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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 11:57am
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Re: "Without constant monitoring or careful use of voltage limiters it is easy for the amp to pole pate the drivers."

Am of the opinion that voltage limiting isn't the answer since the current can be doing some 'nasty' things long before any voltage limiting occurs.

A pic of a 'scope image showing a nice clean output voltage from an amplifier with a very distorted current waveform at the same time (Center trace) when driving a 'Speaker:


Now with a good set of results for the real load the 'Speaker presents to an Amplifier; then this sort of thing can be predicted.

A bit divergent from the OP for this thread but nevertheless relevant to where the discussion has moved to.
Mik



think it might be good if I better explain what is happening in the test above.

The Current waveform is not limited in any way by the Amplifier since this would also appear on the Voltage waveform.

The Current distortion is a direct result of the non-linear impedance of the test 'Speaker's voice coil as it moves within the magnet gap.

Now with these effects happening and being different for each 'Speaker/Cab combination; then they will occur at different Voltage drive levels and in different forms and thus be 'handled' differently by different Amplifiers.

Amplifier Power Supplies: so long as they 'hold up' to provide the Output Voltage and Current demanded by the load aren't the main issue here - the ability of the Amplifier design itself to well manage these non-linear loads is more the issue!

So having a good set of parameters for what load is being presented to the Amplifier is very useful in designing the Amplifier in the first place
Otherwise it is to a certain extent guesswork and why some Amplifiers of similar specifications perform differently to others under the same conditions......

As to Voltage limiting - OK as a device of 'last resort' when set sensibly - but a good pair of ears are definitely best!

Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

for your tests, please dont forget it depends a lot about the music you are playing!!
as i wrote at the beginning, on the picture you can see i powered 16 12" ciare horn speakers with 1 lab gruppen 13000 for real world testing, what is far too less actually, but when i played some rock tracks with a real short and punchy bassdrum it was unbelievable how much it kicked and hard to get the power average limiter on.

This is what many always seem to overlook. “Punch” notes are pulses which equate to bursts. Given the Lab Gruppen (among other modern day amplifiers) are designed to offer more power under burst conditions than continuous average, tracks that are dominant with short attacks is what the amplifier will shine on. This is the reason why the performance under sinusoidal waves is always mediocre. It is a steady state.

 

Another thing that is always overlooked is the Impedance versus Frequency curve of the loudspeaker/enclosure correlation at the given frequency. It really doesn’t matter how many loudspeakers, brand and/or size of the driver used. What matters is where the loudspeaker stands from an impedance standpoint, in the enclosure at the given frequency when, driven using music material. 

 

The Powersoft K Series, Crown I Tech Series and even the old Macrotech 5000/02 vz offers some type of impedance status indicators to inform the user where the loudspeaker(s) impedance lies under the given conditions.

 

Best Regards,




-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:37pm
All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: The Builder
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by andyamp andyamp wrote:

Now we have free trade.
Yes Andy, I can see how thats a bit one sided.
Perhaps my terminology was a litle wrong.
"One sided trade biased towards a communist dictatorship that pays its workers low wages and constantly downgrades its own worth to keep its self in the position of manufacturing might"
 
Happy new yearBig smile


-------------
It just is.


Posted By: cilla.scope
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 1:56pm
Heh :)

It will be very interesting to see how the whole China situation plays out.  They had been under pressure to let the value of the currency rise, but mainly from America .. and I don think the US has much influence over China as they need loans ...

What people need to remember is this:  China does not buy from Europe, but Europe buys from China.  Every time you buy Chinese made kit, a small part of the UK now bleongs to China, inch by inch ( or even cm by cm ;) ) It may not be obvious, and the financial routes may be complex, but without bilateral trade,  we are simply swapping the country out, but by bit.

What we need is relatively balanced trade, as a net importer we are simply selling the country off in exchange for short-lived goods. The Chinese will own that bit of land forever, long after the plastic tat has gone to the dump.

Even if they don't directly purchase land, but instead make loans back to us, that too has its price.

You just watch what happens when China makes a move on Taiwan ... I'll put money that a small note about loan repayments is made to Obama .. and the US will "decide not to get involved".   With presedential elections in Taiwan withing two weeks and the DPP candidate (Tsai Ing-wen) looking strong .. it could be sooner than you think.




-------------
My girlfriend thinks I'm a stalker.
Well, she's not exactly my girlfriend yet ...


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:00pm
Just to add that the UK and Eurozone also have very little influence on China's Government set Exchange rates for the same reasons.....
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: Nitz V1505
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:41pm
Thats because they have been buying British and US goverments bonds for age's and now essentially own them. Funny how world power goes round in cycles over many millennia. On that note Id like to wish everyone a happy new year!!!!!!!

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LET THE BASS ROLL LIKE THUNDER
& THE TOPS LIKE LIGHTNING.....


Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

Heh :)

It will be very interesting to see how the whole China situation plays out.  They had been under pressure to let the value of the currency rise, but mainly from America .. and I don think the US has much influence over China as they need loans ...

What people need to remember is this:  China does not buy from Europe, but Europe buys from China.  Every time you buy Chinese made kit, a small part of the UK now bleongs to China, inch by inch ( or even cm by cm ;) ) It may not be obvious, and the financial routes may be complex, but without bilateral trade,  we are simply swapping the country out, but by bit.

What we need is relatively balanced trade, as a net importer we are simply selling the country off in exchange for short-lived goods. The Chinese will own that bit of land forever, long after the plastic tat has gone to the dump.

Even if they don't directly purchase land, but instead make loans back to us, that too has its price.

You just watch what happens when China makes a move on Taiwan ... I'll put money that a small note about loan repayments is made to Obama .. and the US will "decide not to get involved".   With presedential elections in Taiwan withing two weeks and the DPP candidate (Tsai Ing-wen) looking strong .. it could be sooner than you think.



http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/uk-flag-05.gif%5b/img%5d%5b/url%5d" rel="nofollow - http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/uk-flag-05.gif[/img][/url] http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/suede-flag-77.gif%5b/img%5d%5b/url%5d" rel="nofollow - http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/suede-flag-77.gif[/img][/url] That´s the way to go Cilla , buying cheap stuff and then in the end you don´t have nobody to play cause peeps are out of jobs, the only thing China buys is pig feet and ears and lots of  black market horns from africa , support your local dealer ,


-------------
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk


Posted By: Pasi
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Nitz V1505 Nitz V1505 wrote:

Thats because they have been buying British and US goverments bonds for age's and now essentially own them. Funny how world power goes round in cycles over many millennia. On that note Id like to wish everyone a happy new year!!!!!!!


http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7#china-15" rel="nofollow - http://www.businessinsider.com/who-owns-us-debt-2011-7#china-15
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gigantic-chinese-trade-deficit-which-nobody-knows-exists-2011-6" rel="nofollow - http://www.businessinsider.com/the-gigantic-chinese-trade-deficit-which-nobody-knows-exists-2011-6



Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 31 December 2011 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


What amplifier are you using that offers 147 volts @ 4 ohms?


Best Regards,



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 8:47am
OK,i have cleaned this thread up a bit.

Now i want to make this clear...Stick to the facts.

Choose your words respectfully and carefully Gentlemen.

The first person,(and i dont care who it is,even if you are using a pseudonym) who makes any personal remarks about another member is going to get barred.




-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 10:18am
thank you Ian

Now back to things Technical

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


What amplifier are you using that offers 147 volts @ 4 ohms?


Best Regards,



Well let's have a think as to which Amplifier(s) can deliver 75 Volts per channel into a 2 Ohm load and bridge it!

Now from my experiments so far, the actual load seen by the Amplifier is likely to be higher than the nominal 4 Ohms impedance, plus there will be a significant Power Factor which means not all of the Power the Amplifier is delivering will actually get into the 'Speaker. The reflected power caused by the Power Factor is dissipated by the Amplifier as extra heat.

MarjanM, are you able to repeat the test and measure the Current of your 70Hz amplifier Output as well as the Phase Angle between the Current and Voltage to see best how much actual Power is getting to the 'Speaker Load itself?
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: Peter Papp [PKN]
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


What amplifier are you using that offers 147 volts @ 4 ohms?


Best Regards,


Depends on peak or RMS 147V, If it is peak our PKN XD6000 easily deliver it or even more on 4R :-)

However if it is RMS at least a 3PHASE-20K need.



Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:09am
Hello audiomik & Peter Papp [PKN]
 
Happy New Year!
 
I was under the impression MarjanM was using an amplifier capable delivering 147 volts @ four ohms per channel (stereo mode) continuous average. Personally, I don’t like to operate my amplifiers with so much stress which is common with 4-ohm Bridged Mono/2-ohm Stereo Mode.
 
The PKN XD 6000 is in a class of its own and I would happily invest in such a product, if 3-Phase Power was easily attainable in the States. It is the primary reason the old Macrotech 10,000 never became popular when it was introduced 30+ years ago. Even my method (240-V single phase) is only common with a small amount of sound providers who reside in the States. 
 
 
 
Best Regards,  
 



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:10am
Peter
in round figures for RMS:
An Amplifier that can deliver 2800 watts per channel into 2 Ohm loads (75 Volts) will give the 147 Volts bridged into 4 Ohms.

Let's assume a worst case Class AB design, so 66% efficiency for a sinewave means 5600 + 2800 watts power input which is an 8400 watts supply demand or less for Class D....
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 11:22am
Elliot
happy new year to you

take your point about about not liking to stress Amplifiers with low load impedances - I'm still of the opinion that the best way to use them is 'one channel for one 'Speaker' which may be old fashioned but is ultimately much more reliable and has the built in system redundancy we all need at times
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Peter Papp [PKN Peter Papp [PKN wrote:

]
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

All this got me thinking so i took a volt meter and measured the voltage of our biggest amp.
So connected to a double 18 sub playing 70Hz right to the point of clip lights tinkering. Measured 147V :-)


What amplifier are you using that offers 147 volts @ 4 ohms?


Best Regards,

h


Depends on peak or RMS 147V, If it is peak our PKN XD6000 easily deliver it or even more on 4R :-)

However if it is RMS at least a 3PHASE-20K need.


It is a Bold Audio BAP20. It is a Class I smps amp. Measurement was very simple. 70Hz sine wave to the mixer/amp/speaker. I just hooked up the volt meter and increased the volume to the clip light.
Not very scientific. I was just curious.
As for the measuring the phase and all that stuff, i dont think i can do it. 

I will measure both channels driven this days to see what the voltage drop will be.




-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

It is a Bold Audio BAP20. It is a Class I smps amp. Measurement was very simple. 70Hz sine wave to the mixer/amp/speaker. I just hooked up the volt meter and increased the volume to the clip light.
Not very scientific. I was just curious.
As for the measuring the phase and all that stuff, i dont think i can do it. 

I will measure both channels driven this days to see what the voltage drop will be.


Could you repeat the test @ 45hz? Embarrassed




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"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:21pm
Yes i will when i can go and test out. Having that power inside the shop with 40Hz will devastate the ceiling :-) That was actually my idea but i soon realized that i can not do it. Things were falling off the shelves.
And this was one channel drive. Not bridged. Now doing that with both channel on and 40Hz will definitely make structural damage at the shop :-)


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Yes i will when i can go and test out. Having that power inside the shop with 40Hz will devastate the ceiling :-) That was actually my idea but i soon realized that i can not do it. Things were falling off the shelves.
And this was one channel drive. Not bridged. Now doing that with both channel on and 40Hz will definitely make structural damage at the shop :-)


Clap

Which drivers are your cabs loaded with?

Would be interesting comparing voltage measured, with driver impedance curve graph.





-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:34pm
A customized version of 18Sound  18NLW9600. And i really dont have time for more critical testing right now. Nor the needed equipment.

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

A customized version of 18Sound  18NLW9600. And i really dont have time for more critical testing right now. Nor the needed equipment.


Sure..

I meant comparing measurements with driver manufacturer's impedance curve graph. LOL


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:00pm
Ah.. lol. Well stock 18NLW9600 should not be far from ours.

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=288" rel="nofollow - http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=288

So it seems that impedance starts rising at around 55Hz and it is in the 8 ohm region at 70Hz. 


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:04pm
Marjan

I think that the more information we can gather about what 'Speakers actually present to Amplifiers as loads in 'real life' then the more likely we should be able to predict Amplifier performance.

if you don't have a current probe, a simple means of measuring the current into the 'Speaker is to use a low value power resistor in series and then measure the voltage across it.

Here I use 0.05 Ohms made up of 10 0.51 ohm 2.5watt resistors wired in parallel (with another resistor paralleled to get to the 0.05 ohms) but a single metal-clad of known small resistance will work just as well; just a different set of numbers to insert into 'Ohm's Law' formulas.
From the V and I measurements we have the 'speaker's impedance at a given test frequency plus the VA value.


For much more detail on test methods and some results,
http://forum.speakerplans.com/power-factors-for-speakers_topic52128_page1.html" rel="nofollow - this thread .

OK, the specialist test instruments I've been using for Phase measurement aren't necessarily required to obtain valid results and there is a description of how to measure phase differences using a 2 channel oscilloscope plug-in from tektronix - with the same methods able to be used for any 2 channel 'Scope - on page 2-6 of this manual:
http://bama.edebris.com/download/tek/7a18/Tektronix_7A18_Service_June1974.pdf" rel="nofollow - TEK 7A18

hope this assists and look forward to some results
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Marjan

I think that the more information we can gather about what 'Speakers actually present to Amplifiers as loads in 'real life' then the more likely we should be able to predict Amplifier performance.


The advantage of "voltage/current" measurements using Marjan's scheme, is the reactive component in the impedance. Embarrassed

EDIT:Purely resistive load, doesn't  reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting. LOL


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:08pm
i dont have an oscilloscope :-(.

Ill try the impedance measurement when i have more time.

Thing is that i am getting results using a specific amp/driver/box combo. But i dont think that results will be much more different with using a different box/speaker combo.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:47pm
Lev
Re: "Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting."

well this is the core of what I'm trying to get to!
To try and resolve this better then we need to know the extents of the 'battlefield'

here are some test results for a Phonics MAR6 Amplifier (about half way down the linked page below) which 'failed miserably' compared with a C-Audio RA series Amp (and others) when presented with the same reactive load:
http://forum.speakerplans.com/amplifier-damping-factor-dynamic-testing_topic41777_page3.html" rel="nofollow - Amplifier Damping Factor Thread - page 3

Now a bit of an extreeem test, but it still shows up very well what different Amplifiers are capable of compared with others.

Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?

Marjan
OK, the impedance values will be interesting in themselves, the part we won't know is the 'real' power going to the 'Speaker.
Changing the Box and or Tuning will directly affect the impedance curve as the cone is then loaded differently

Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:


Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?


Would expect the Proline 3000 to perform admirably, in a 4 ohm bridge, reactive load, 40hz bench test.

I have the circuit diagrams, so we can safely identify, the inrush circuitry. Wink

DJ Leco, has already posted regarding uprating inrush handling components, to avoid common issues in this area.


-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Lev
Re: "Purely resistive load, doesn't reflect real life battle, between good and evil, the amplifier is constantly fighting."

well this is the core of what I'm trying to get to!
To try and resolve this better then we need to know the extents of the 'battlefield'

here are some test results for a Phonics MAR6 Amplifier (about half way down the linked page below) which 'failed miserably' compared with a C-Audio RA series Amp (and others) when presented with the same reactive load:
http://forum.speakerplans.com/amplifier-damping-factor-dynamic-testing_topic41777_page3.html" rel="nofollow - Amplifier Damping Factor Thread - page 3

Now a bit of an extreeem test, but it still shows up very well what different Amplifiers are capable of compared with others.

Anyway, so we don't leave the OP's report completely behind it would be interesting to see the same tests for those 2 Amplifiers when they are presented with an Inductive Load?

Marjan
OK, the impedance values will be interesting in themselves, the part we won't know is the 'real' power going to the 'Speaker.
Changing the Box and or Tuning will directly affect the impedance curve as the cone is then loaded differently


Mik

I wasnt talking about changing the box or driver. More that in a way that any amp will behave a bit differently with some other box, now that wont be too much. At the end, a 2KW amp is a 2KW amp. Impedance variation will be different on other boxes but still at average not too much difference.

As for the real power going to the speakers, that i would like to find out somehow too. Any suggestions on not too complicated way? Like measuring the amps and voltage at the same time maybe?

A NOTE: This amps are just developed for us, i have manufacturers data but i would like to know for real what is going on before we release them to the public. The last 2 months they survived all torture test i have thrown to them, i was more worried about the drivers then the amps.
I wasnt doing any silly 1 ohm loading or such unreasonable things if one wanders.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Ah.. lol. Well stock 18NLW9600 should not be far from ours.

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=288" rel="nofollow - http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=288

So it seems that impedance starts rising at around 55Hz and it is in the 8 ohm region at 70Hz. 


Hi.


Bear in mind how the speaker reacts in free air and in an enclosure are two different things. 

It appears the amplifier you are using is fairly new for the website does not offer any information other than "coming soon."

Best Regards, 



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:04pm



Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Elliot

happy new year to you

take your point about about not liking to stress Amplifiers with low load impedances - I'm still of the opinion that the best way to use them is 'one channel for one 'Speaker' which may be old fashioned but is ultimately much more reliable and has the built in system redundancy we all need at times

Mik


Two speakers per channel with an impedance dip of both speakers that does not sway below 3.4 ohms is my preference. 

I've conducted many tests throughout the years and, I cannot find any benefits putting an amplifier in such a position (2 ohms per channel) other than budget constraints. Even that can be over-ridden if one would have more patience and save. That too is an old fashioned method that is clearly forgotten these days.

 

Best Regards,


 



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:05pm
Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer.
I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do.
They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. 
The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: levyte357
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Two speakers per channel with an impedance dip of both speakers that does not sway below 3.4 ohms is my preference.

Clap

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

I've conducted many tests throughout the years and, I cannot find any benefits putting an amplifier in such a position (2 ohms per channel) other than budget constraints. Even that can be over-ridden if one would have more patience and save. That too is an old fashioned method that is clearly forgotten these days.

+1

Loved the sound of my 2x proto cabs on Christmas eve, running power amp at 8 ohm per channel, each cab fed via individual 4mm2 cable pairs.Embarrassed




-------------
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".


Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

Hello,

i wanted to share some interesting measurements
a colleague and me did yesterday.
we used a konstantan-wire to simulate 2x4ohm resistors.
it keeps pretty well its resistance constant even at high temperatures,
and we cooled it with oil.
we measured only sinus, coz we are sure the lab does its 13000watt burst,
also the pc the oscilloscope was connected with was too slow to follow.

we measured 30hz, 50hz, 1khz and 16khz.
results for 50hz were

proline:          2x1850watt sinus @ 4ohm
lab gruppen:  2x1764watt sinus @ 4ohm (after ~1second)


now the interesting part:
power consumption:

proline 3000: 5000watt, 6500VA

lab gruppen 13000: 4000watt, 6000VA

peaks of power consumption were higher, but we measured just before clipping.
at the end the fuse of the proline came and the power switch at the front panel
has broken.
even if both amps had limiters, it was possible to get a very unnice looking
curve without hitting the input level too high.

this measurements are no 100%precise laboratory results,
but we tried hard to get as good results as possible.


now i was wondering a lot about the power consumption...
if you caltulate with the effective power (watts)
it all makes sense, the proline has a good efficience of
2x1850watt / 5000watt =0,74 =74%
and the lab gruppen
2x1764watt / 4000watt =0,882 = 88,2%.

but actually, if you consider how much you can get out of
an 16a fuse or a generator, you have always
to calculate with the appearing power (VA).

VA of both amps was almost the same.
and thats what suprised me a lot.

no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,
more peak power, so will do actually in any case louder than
the proline, but if its about powerconsumption in VA
they are almost the same for the same output,
and i would have never expect that.

best regards


ClapClap

but what about the price comparison? Embarrassed

Clap

-------------
PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM.

Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music.

Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day.


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer.
I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do.
They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. 
The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.

Due to the GPS 3400 operating at its limits (4-ohm Bridged Mono), it no longer has any headroom. If the Bold Audio BAP20 is two ohms stable in stereo mode, the amplifier will still have headroom for it is driving a four ohm load not, two.

The 104 volt rating may be due to the fluctuations of the impedance of the loudspeakers so, the amplifier is limiting itself due to the power supply.

One thing I might add is the Bode Audio BAP 20 may have offered the 147-volt rating due to “one channel driven.” if it does not offer discrete circuitry. The Lab Gruppen FP 14000 specifications sheet states in can/will deliver more wattage if a single channel is driven. From what I gathered the Bode Audio BAP 20 is an 8000-watt amplifier so, anything is possible.

Best Regards,



-------------
Elliot Thompson


Posted By: tweeter box
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Tony Wilkes Tony Wilkes wrote:

Originally posted by cilla.scope cilla.scope wrote:

How do you know Amp A was driving the speakers less hard than Amp B?  Please explain exactly how you made the measurements.


That's simple because it sounds louder!!!



LOLClap
Clap

-------------
PRECISION SOUND SYSTEM.

Feeding the peoples needs for Roots Music.

Strictly premium grade reggae and dub steppers from the early 70's to present day.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Elliot, amps are new yes and just getting out of production. No official data yet because we are waiting for some more testings of the reliability. Thus the torture period on them right now.
What i am founding is that they are quite conservatively rated (was quite surprised by the 147 to be honest) so need to confirm now all that with the OEM manufacturer.
I will try to do some more testings on my own, but i am not really in to amp design and have to find a way to determine what they can really do.
They are rated at 3400W per channel at 4 ohms. How ever, when A/B testing against my GPS3400 that is also rated 3400W bridged at 4 ohms, the new amp is quite louder. 
The GPS is getting me a 104V at 4 ohms bridged just at clipp.

Due to the GPS 3400 operating at its limits (4-ohm Bridged Mono), it no longer has any headroom. If the Bold Audio BAP20 is two ohms stable in stereo mode, the amplifier will still have headroom for it is driving a four ohm load not, two.

The 104 volt rating may be due to the fluctuations of the impedance of the loudspeakers so, the amplifier is limiting itself due to the power supply.

One thing I might add is the Bode Audio BAP 20 may have offered the 147-volt rating due to “one channel driven.” if it does not offer discrete circuitry. The Lab Gruppen FP 14000 specifications sheet states in can/will deliver more wattage if a single channel is driven. From what I gathered the Bode Audio BAP 20 is an 8000-watt amplifier so, anything is possible.

Best Regards,


Exactly, and it has 11KW power supply unit.


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 5:25pm
Marjan
Re: "As for the real power going to the speakers, that i would like to find out somehow too. Any suggestions on not too complicated way? Like measuring the amps and voltage at the same time maybe?"

having a 'think' and so far various ideas - will get back on this later....

Are you also wanting to be able to bench test your Amplifiers?
Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 January 2012 at 5:38pm
Mik, at some point yes, why not. At least to have data for internal use if amps fail miserably :-). Which i dont think it will be the case.



-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: ennayess
Date Posted: 11 January 2012 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:

david, thats what im thinkin tooSmile

proline survived.
its what you said it was the fuse.
but!the power switch at the front panel has broken.

i put a new one in and everything works fine.





Where'd you buy the switch? can you send me a link.



Posted By: airbell
Date Posted: 13 January 2012 at 12:04pm
sorry to be more precise i put the switch of an old damaged TA3200 in it to replace it :)

but i ll ask thomann if they can send me one with the next order, or may you have a look here
 
http://www.reichelt.de/Wippschalter/0/16/index.html?;ACTION=2;LA=2;GROUPID=3285;SID=10ThGWUH8AAAIAAFlWjQs85ed6952f146d88caf496242cccd583b" rel="nofollow - http://www.reichelt.de/Wippschalter/0/16/index.html?;ACTION=2;LA=2;GROUPID=3285;SID=10ThGWUH8AAAIAAFlWjQs85ed6952f146d88caf496242cccd583b
 
didnt check yet whats the right one, im busy, but i think it should be found there.



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