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Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested

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Topic: Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested
Posted By: teslaman
Subject: Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 7:57pm
I thought it was about time to put some figures down on what these budget class-D's can do so they have both had a visit to the test bench....

Since I have quite a bit of data to show I will upload it using several messages over time so please bare with me as I'm not glued to my computer!

So firstly, some pics and a general description.

Pictures

Behringer inuke NU6000:

I'll be amazed if I find anyone who thinks this is attractive? Maybe they let their new graduate designer sculpt these fine lines!


The case is made from folded aluminium (except the front moulding which is plastic fastened to the punched aluminium inside). Despite it being quite thin it doesn't feel too flimsy and given its very light it should be just fine.... The chunky front panel adds a lot of depth to the front of the amp and it ends up with the knobs 42mm from the rack ears so make sure your flight case has enough space!
The non-Neutrik connector worked OK for me but I wasn't keen on the XLRs which have no locking pins!


There is no ducting for the two 80mm fans on this model. All the power devices are clamped to the base plate, which is acting as the heat sink. The fans just push air through the box to take away the heat build-up of the case and the components. The base plate does get warm when delivering a lot of average power. The fans are speed controlled but even at the lowest setting they are quite noisy, when you work it hard it starts to sound like a hair dryer!


The mains input filtering looks chunky enough and the NTC soft-start resistor is bypassed by the relay after start-up. There is a 12A thermal breaker on the back panel which may be there to protect the IEC inlet and power cable as this thing can drink some juice!


The circuit boards all look nicely made with SMD parts used in preference to through-hole. The amp sections are based around the IRS20957S and there are four channels used in permanent bridge mode to give the two outputs.


The Behringer doesn't have any PFC (Power Factor Correction) and would appear to be a fairly standard forward converter. It uses a fairly substantial ferrite transformer with a resonant switching choke (well glued to the PCB). Power rails measure at +/-84V and there is a reasonable amount of energy storage around which is formed of 4 x 2200uF/200V on the primary side and 4 x 3300uF/100V plus 8 x 1000uF/100V on the secondary side. The effective primary capacitance is therefore 2200uF/400V and secondary side is 10,600uF/100V per rail. Total energy storage is therefore approx. 200J at nominal working voltages.


Amp output inductors used a decent gauge of wire and are securely glued to the PCB. Each channel has its own local reservoir caps but they are common to the same power rails.


KAM KXD7200:

The KAM is 1U and thus it has been a lot harder to fit everything in. There are multiple instances of stacked PCBs which appear to be held in place by a posh type of twist tie! Four variable-speed 40mm fans pull air from front to back over the heat sinks and guts. Casework is steel and feels substantial enough.
The KAM has PFC which uses the modest size toroidal choke on the right hand side.


All controls are recessed (to the rack ears anyway) and it looks a lot nicer than the Behringer!


The KXD7200 is a single-ended output type and thus can be bridged if you really want to get some voltage swing! The IEC inlet is fused with an F15A fuse which means it would probably fail before the 13A fuse in the plug, as it should.


The amplifier sections use two boards stacked on top of the main PCB and the top board has been coated in black paint or similar for reasons unknown. Probably to prevent easy copying I guess?
The output inductors here have a much smaller gauge of wire than the Behringer and, as we'll see later, that leads to a lot of heat build-up in these parts.


The power supply in the KAM seems smaller that the Behringer despite its extra complexity. The Ferrite transformer is smaller at just 5cm x 5cm x 3.5cm. Primary side capacitors are 2 x 330uF 400V and secondary side consists of 10 x 1200uF 160V, so 6000uF per rail. DC rails run at +/-145V and seem very stiff even under heavy loading. They could be regulated or perhaps just benefiting from the stable output of the PFC stage. Assuming 380V for the PFC DC bus output (I didn't check it) then total energy storage would be approx. 173J


The secret amp boards complete with what looks like paint brush hairs :)


PFC inductor and part of the input filter. Driver circuit is again painted over to disguise it's secrets!


Certainly an impressive power to weight ratio if it lives up to it's specs....


So in the next section we'll look at power output.....
Stay tuned as I'm off for my dinner :)




Replies:
Posted By: andycw
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:05pm
Will be interesting to see how they perform.

Thanks for sharing..Thumbs Up


-------------
No Bass No Fun


Posted By: nuclearbass
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by andycw andycw wrote:

Will be interesting to see how they perform.

Thanks for sharing..Thumbs Up

+1


-------------
one life - have fun!
Force fusion pro audio


Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 9:23pm
what frequencies do the stages work on?

-------------
K. Edwards Electronics Engineers

North Staffordshire



Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 10:42pm
So, the manufacturers rated power specs are as follows:

NU6000:
The instruction manual for the Behringer actually has rms figures in it as well as their advertised inflated figures. I'm still not sure where they get their multiplier from to convert one to the other but it seems to be x1.36.....

Stereo 8 Ohms per channel: 1500W or 1100Wrms
Stereo 4 Ohms per channel: 3000W or 2200Wrms

KXD7200:
Stereo 8 Ohms per channel: 900Wrms
Stereo 4 Ohms per channel: 1800Wrms

Now if these amps were class-AB/H/G etc. with 50Hz transformer based supplies then measuring power output is normally easy, just use a continuous tone and measure what you get. As we know amps with switching power supplies sometimes restrict the output power under sinusoidal tone conditions as they do not have the thermal capacity or overload capacity to suck it up for a minute or so whilst the engineer measures it. In anticipation of this happening here I choose to make two measurement types. Continuous sinusoidal output for 1 minute (i.e. the traditional way) and output under 33% duty cycle conditions, which is a kind of burst rating but where the burst is repeated so as to deliver 33% maximum output. This is similar to saying that an amplifier must deliver 33% of its power indefinitely so that music signals with a low crest factor can still be reliably produced. 1/8th power is typical used for domestic equipment but 1/3rd seems safer for professional use where those dub bass lines can get quite demanding.
Speaking of bass, we also know that amplifiers cannot always deliver the same power at low frequencies as they do at 1KHz so I also measured both the conditions above at 31Hz and 1KHz. In order for the burst rating not to take a unfair advantage of the energy stored in the capacitors I chose the repetition rates for the burst to be relatively long so that the power output is what the power supply can sustain, not what it can do for 1ms!

So the 33% duty test signal used was as follows:
For the 1KHz measurement the signal is on for 70ms and off for 140ms.
For the 31Hz measurement the signal is on for 450ms and off for 900ms.

Sorry for boring those non-techies of you but there will probably be some debate about what tests are appropriate so I thought I needed to explain where I came from.

So, on to the results, first up, the continuous tone tests.

8 Ohms:
The Behringer was happy to drive 8 Ohm loads at full power (limiter active) for 1 minute without any change in power output. With both channels driven it produced 1.17kW at 1kHz and 1.08kW at 31Hz

The Kam was more interesting, it was happy for 30 seconds at 1kHz but had reduced output slightly by 1 minute. The reduction seemed to steady out after that. With both channels driven it produced 1.05kW at 1kHz at the 30 second mark and then fell to 950W at 1 minute.
Strangely, at 31Hz, the reduction did not happen, possibly because it started at a lower value in the first place. At 31Hz the output was stable at 980W.

4 Ohms:

The Behringer was happy to drive 1 channel at 4 Ohms with no reduction in output at 1 minute. Power output was 2.27kW at 1kHz and 2.12kW at 31Hz. This demonstrates that the amp section should drive high power into 4 Ohms without any short-term limitation. However, when driving two channels simultaneously the amp would trip its protection and shut down, needing a power on/off cycle to reset. Since the power amp part was happy to deliver the power then I conclude there is a total power limit on the supply part and rather than engaging the limiters to reduce output the amp switches off. This seems a strange decision on the part of the designer, better the show go on at reduced level if the amp finds itself producing sine-wave like power outputs. It is only fair to remember however that this is a harsh test and the amplifier was pulling 24Arms from the mains at the point it cut-out! (Note: the 12A breaker on the rear did not operate as it has a time delay, this was an internal electronic limitation).
Whether this ever occurs in a music situation is debatable and the burst tests below will demonstrate its actual ability with more realistic signals. That said it does mean it is possible to trip the amp if you abuse it into 4 Ohms, not ideal.

If the output power was kept below 1.7kW per channel then the amp would not trip. To leave a margin I left the amp running at 1.5kW per channel to see if I could get a 1 minute figure. Unfortunately after 15 seconds the circuit breaker opened, not surprising at it was drawing 22A from the mains at the time. So in the end I didn't get a 1 minute figure for 4 Ohms running but I expect it will be around the 1.2kW per channel mark as that produces a current draw of 15A which would eventually trip the breaker.

The Kam takes a different and far more cautious approach. Regardless of whether you use one or both channels the output power into 4 Ohms is limited on a time delay basis. The limitation here does not appear to be the supply but the amp sections themselves.
Power output at 1 minute was restricted to 650W at 1kHz and 540W at 31Hz. The limitation comes in after around 4 seconds:


Again, this may not affect the operation with music, see the results from the burst testing below.
At least it doesn't trip out leaving you with no sound however it does seem a large restriction when it should do 1.8kW!

33% Duty cycle testing

So now it's onto the more music like signals to hopefully get an idea of what these amps will achieve in practice. First up, the Behringer get the 1kHz test.

Unfortunately I've lost the picture that goes with this measurement but the result was 1.37kW into 8 Ohms with either one or both channels driven. At 4 Ohms the output was 2.05kW both channels driven and 2.45kW one channel driven. For the single channel case the waveform is shown below:


The upper traces are the + and - speaker terminals, measured separately as this was a balanced (bridged) output. The lower trace is the AC mains current draw with a scale of 20A/division. The lack of PFC means the current peaks are already 36A for one channel driven.

Now changing to 31Hz, the NU6000 now manages 1.16kW into 8 Ohms with one or both channels driven. The traces below are for 2 channels driven and the current is now at 50A/division!


At 4 Ohms with 1 channel driven we get 2.05kW:


And at 4 Ohms both channels driven we get 1.80kW:


Peak mains current is now at 80A!

The Kam results are similar but lower. Starting with 1kHz and 8 Ohms it will produce 1.12kW with either 1 or 2 channels driven. Trace shows 2 channels driven:


Notice the mains current is more sinusoidal though not perfectly so (more on that later) and a scale of 20A/division is adequate :)

At 4 Ohms the Kam produces 2.08kW with one channel driven and 1.77kW with both driven. Trace shows both channels driven:


Peak mains current is around 30A.

Changing to 31Hz, at 8 Ohms the KXD7200 produced 1.11kW with one channel driven and 1.02kW with both driven:


At 4 Ohms the output was 1.95kW with one channel and 1.62kW with both channels driven. I appear to have lost the trace for 2 channels so here it is for one channel, 4 Ohms, 31Hz:


Conclusion of power testing

Neither of the amplifiers showed any signs of progressively restricting the output during these tests so I'm inclined believe that they should be good to do this indefinitely. As a caveat though I did not test them in this mode for long as my load box is not capable of these power levels for more than a couple of minutes at a time.

To summarise, for music signals, both channels driven, you can expect an output of:

Behringer:
1.37kW into 8 Ohms, 2.05kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.16kW into 8 Ohms, 1.80kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty

Kam:
1.12kW into 8 Ohms, 1.77kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.02kW into 8 Ohms, 1.62kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty

In the next instalment we will look at the frequency response......




Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by kedwardsleisure kedwardsleisure wrote:

what frequencies do the stages work on?

I didn't check the power supply sections (though I can if needs be) but the output stages were working at 348kHz for the Behringer (both channels virtually the same Confused) and the Kam has one channel at 310kHz and the other at 330kHz.

I believe in both cases that the frequency varies with instantaneous output voltage.

I will be including some traces for the output noise with no signal soon.


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 12:07am
Cheers for taking the time to test these, the Inuke 6000 looks good, shame about the current draw...looks like it would be trouble on generators...
Its interesting that the 6000 will sustain its output without dropping the voltage, the Inuke 3000 drops the level after a few seconds much like the Kam, it also has no breaker on the back.


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: shagnasty
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 12:16am
Nice work, thanks for taking the time to post it...
Big smile
 
S


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 1:01am
i have seen the original manufacturer of those KAM internals somewhere in the china backstage of prolight&sound in frankfurt. It still pulls the hot air to its capacitors quickly dry them out and let you buy another one of this scrap.
About the iNUKE: the whole thing has built around the IRS20957S which barely hits the entry level, it has made for cheapest car radios and does not even have real output feedback. The sample frequency is not 348Khz (or only in low signal or steady-state) because it is free running variable freq. controller with the lack of sync. capability.
As I saw it would make a voltage doubler circuitry by a relay and center tapped primary caps for low line operation. good luck with that! And deal with 200A+ current spikes and heavy AC line distortion :-D


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 1:13am
Does the 2x 2000W@4R with 33% burst ratings mean 2x 700W@4R CONTINUOUS real power?


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 1:46am
David

looking at your results for the iNuke:
"At 4 Ohms both channels driven we get 1.80kW: Peak mains current is now at 80A!"

Then checking the Behringer website info, and your images earlier in this thread, for this Amplifier it appears to be using a single IEC type 10A (rms) power connector.
Now your measurement is peak current, albeit with a reduced duty cycle, but the peak current rating of a 10A IEC connector is still only 14.14 amps.....
When I last looked up CE Compliance Regs, this would be a 'Fail'!
The KAM seems to be substantially better performing in this respect with only a 2:1 overload compared with over 5:1 for the NU6000.

OK, like me you have limited loads in terms of continuous power dissipation measurements, but how long will it take for the IEC connector to heat up to an unacceptable level and fail do you think?

Anyway, an interesting set of test results, but would like to see the sinewave output just into clipping and 33% voltage squarewave responses of both Amplifiers to be able to compare their performance with other Amplifier tests.

Don't know which type of Current probe you have, but the Amplifier output current waveform into a Resistive Load with no signal input can be interesting
Then again, output current measurements into a Load with an Inductive component, just like the Le of a 'Speaker, give some 'spectacular' results with Class D.......
A couple of MilliHenrys and 4 Ohms in series with 50% output Voltage at 1kHz? Wouldn't want to overload the output stages with too much back EMF now would we

Just seen UVictor's posts whilst writing this one - max continuous output without 'tripping' for 5 minutes would be interesting - and the test described above with the Inductive component added can show marked differences in performance where the various clocks aren't properly locked or synchronised respectively in different Class D/SMPSU Designs.

Keep up the good work
Mik


-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 9:57am
The 80A peaky line current draw comes from the AC line current distortion due primary side peak rectification.
This is not a real problem for the IEC connector but could have serious consequences if many of these connected to the power network, It is a PROBLEM for the electrical service provider, circuit breakers and especially risky when diesel generator is the power source!
It has a high probability not only KILLS the amps itself but hurting other sensitive equipments connected to the same network (CD players, mixers, etc..)
It is not a big surprise that most of modern high-power amplifiers have power factor correction (PFC) to eliminate these potentially killer current peaks...


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:



Anyway, an interesting set of test results, but would like to see the sinewave output just into clipping and 33% voltage squarewave responses of both Amplifiers to be able to compare their performance with other Amplifier tests.


Keep up the good work
Mik


+1

A clipping waveform is normally where we separate the men from the boys... Wink  Smile




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 6:22pm
I will address the various questions posed at some point but first I want to get the remaining results out (which may answer one or two anyway Smile).

The frequency response of the Behringer is load dependant because it takes it's feedback before the output filter. You can see the result here:


The flattest response is for 8 Ohm loads where the response is just 0.27dB up at 20kHz and otherwise flat to below 10Hz, -3dB is at 42kHz. 4 Ohm loads over-damp the output filters causing a loss of 2.2dB at 20kHz, -3dB is now at 22.7kHz. Fortunately there are virtually no speakers out there with a 4 Ohm impedance at 20kHz as the voice coil inductance, even for compression drivers and tweeters, has started to push up the impedance.
For open circuit loads you can see the output filter is very under-damped, with only the Zobel network for damping. Probably no importance in practice however as long as you don't drive it with a 38kHz sine wave with no load Tongue

The Kam amplifier uses a different technology and obviously takes it's feedback from after the filter as evidenced by the well-behaved response:


The response is pretty much load independent with a -3dB point at 39kHz. Since a high-pass filter option was included I measured it also and you can see it produces a second-order roll-off with -3dV at 33Hz, handy to protect speakers if you're not using an LMS.

The response variations can also be illustrated with a square-wave measurement and the Behringer shows the expected results:


The low frequency square wave (110Hz) shows gentle sloping due to the high-pass filter at sub 10Hz. You can see a slight transient at the start because this is for an 8 Ohm load. To see more detail we go to a 5kHz square wave:


So the slight under-damping is evident. Changing to a 4 Ohm load:


The over-damping is also apparent as well as the bandwidth limitation giving a nice slope to the edges. With an open circuit:


The excessive ringing can be seen, this is due to the energy content of the square wave exciting the 38kHz resonance. In practice, despite its appearance, this is not really an issue as there is not likely to be any frequency content in the signal to set off this resonance. Remember also that this is with no load......

The Kam, as the frequency response tells us, shows a much less variable output. Firstly the 110Hz square wave:


This does not have the slight overshoot at the start because of the controlled damping but otherwise is the same as the Behringer. The 5kHz response at 8 Ohms:


and 4 Ohms:


and open circuit:


Spot the difference Smile OK, so there isn't any change..

So to summarise, the Behringer has a somewhat load dependant response at the highest frequencies which may mean a little tweaking of the EQ is required for different speaker systems, no big deal. The Kam however has an outstanding performance being essentially tolerant to any load condition with little effect.

Of course there is a secondary result of these two approaches, the output impedance of the amplifier itself (Damping factor). The Kam, with its feedback after the filter, should have a very low output impedance across the band but especially at low frequencies (where open-loop gain is at its highest). The Behringer cannot correct for the impedance of it's output filter so will have a higher output impedance across the board but will get especially bad at the highest frequencies, hence the variability with load. The real significance of this is probably minor for most users but it's useful to know. Incidentally, the damping factor specified by the manufacturers is 120 for the Behringer and 800 for the Kam which ties into the results here.
If I find time i'll measure and plot the output impedance against frequency for interest.

Next up will be THD....


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 6:43pm
Thumbs Up

Nice. Thanks for taking the trouble to do all this. 

-------------
Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 7:59pm
THD

In the absence of an AES17 filter option I used an external 30kHz second-order low-pass filter to reduce the switching frequency content and allow the AP to measure the distortion. Analyser bandwidth was left at 80kHz (In hindsight the 30kHz setting would have been more appropriate but hey-ho, it doesn't make a big difference).

I did some scope traces of the residual so the nature of the distortion could be viewed at specific conditions. Then two measurements were undertaken, THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise) versus frequency at 1/3rd power and THD+N vs output power for 1kHz and 31Hz.

First up, Behringer:

At low powers the Behringer is actually pretty good. At 50W, 8 Ohms, 1kHz the reading was 0.009% Smile


(Note: For those who don't know, the top trace is the amplifier output signal, auto-ranged by the AP. The bottom trace is the distortion residual, i.e. all the parts of the signal that shouldn't be there. They are not to the same scale and the actual scale on the screen is irrelevant due to the auto-ranging of both traces)

The distortion is mainly 3rd harmonic although some noise and higher harmonics are present. This is reassuring as I'd been using the amp in my workshop to provide background music for a couple of days and it was actually fairly sweet sounding through hi-fi speakers Shocked.

At 50W into 4 Ohms the THD+N was 0.017%:


You can start to see the higher harmonics building but 3rd is still dominant.
Pushing up the power soon starts to bring out some more nasties though and at 1/3rd power into 8 Ohms (380W), still 1kHz, the measurement is now 0.0217%:


Plenty of higher harmonics there now so I'd expect the sound to harden up a bit when the amp gets pushed but the total THD level is still reasonable.
At 4 Ohms, 760W, 1kHz the THD+N is 0.08%:


3rd harmonic still a big contributor but plenty of other stuff there still.

Moving to 31Hz, 8 Ohms, 380W, the figure is 0.0616%:


The distortion residual is smoother and so harmonics will be mainly low order, looks like 3rd and 5th mainly. Should make for a reasonable sounding bass amp!

At 4 Ohms, 31Hz, 760W the figure was very similar at 0.0618%:


The residual also looks similar so I have a hunch that this distortion might be caused by something other than the power amp section itself. It kind of reminds me of the distortion you get when using SMD ceramic capacitors as DC blockers for audio signals! I wonder if they have skimped on caps with the design and used SMD for signal coupling Confused This would also explain the fact that the THD is rising as the frequency goes down since the AC component of signal across the caps increases with decreasing frequency.

So, at 1/3rd power the THD+N versus frequency looks like this:


Nothing special about this, in fact it's not great considering a good class-AB amp will do 0.005% at 1kHz and maybe 0.02% at 20kHz. The increase in distortion at low frequencies is interesting and unusual, it would normally plateau out at the noise floor of the measurement but there is clearly another mechanism at work in this design, maybe those ceramic coupling caps at work??.

Finally for the Behringer is the plot of THD+N versus output power:


Because the limiter comes in as clipping starts the THD doesn't actually rise too much, we see the level just stops increasing and the curve fluctuates around a constant power point. The limiter is not defeat-able so I couldn't generate the classic types of curves you normally gets from this measurement with a sharp increase in THD above clipping.

Onto the Kam:

THD was consistent with the Kam pretty much regardless of level, so there was no sweet spot to be obtained at low power outputs.
At 1kHz, 8 ohms, 340W, the THD+N was 0.11%:


Quite a bit of harmonic content and fuzz here so not as impressive as the Behringer.

At 1kHz, 4 Ohms, 640W the figure was 0.126%:


Similar to the above and perhaps looks indicative of some induced distortion from power supply tracks since its asymmetrical and has a large component at the zero cross points.

At 31Hz, 8 Ohms, 340W the THD was 0.115%:


This makes it very clear that the positive half cycle has a much larger interference effect than the negative half despite there similar shapes, re-enforcing the thought of power trace related distortion. Pure speculation based on personal experience but it may be down to circuit layout allowing a node to be disturbed by current in another part of the circuit.

31Hz, 4 Ohms, 640W:


No real change.

Plotting the THD+N vs Frequency we get:


This shows the independence of THD on frequency further suggesting a well defined coupling mechanism of distortion into the signal.

Moving on to the THD+N vs Output power. This caused a headache since, as we have already seen, the amplifier limits power into 4 Ohm loads after 4 seconds. Unfortunately the measurement of THD vs Power output takes longer than that to do so the results are messed up. Still, for the fun of it, here they are:


Both 8 Ohms traces are OK and you can see the power limiting on 1kHz but not on the 31Hz as already noted in the power testing. The 4 Ohm traces get messed up by the power limiting kicking in during the test. At 1kHz it tops out at 650W but it maintains the 31Hz output for long enough to get up to reasonable power but it wasn't stable.
The traces are, in the main, flat again at around 0.13%. It does increase at high frequencies but not until 10kHz so the top end is not bad at least.

You can draw your own conclusions but I think the Behringer has the better chance of sounding nice.



Posted By: snafu
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:46pm
so it doe's roughly what it says on the tin ?.
As expected.
Good on behringer, keep up the good work.



Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 10:38pm
Anything bellow 1% THD is OK.
THD is not the most important thing how well a professional amp would perform.
However the lack of real output feedback in the iNUKE is a serious problem and renders this amp USELESS anywhere above driving sub sections. The undamped/uncontolled output LC filter causes unpredictable signal level variations with different speaker loads probably creates huge spikes in the mids/high freq. range.
I have seen/heard first series PKN amps ~10years before with similar problems so Behringer should have learnt something :-)
That KAM has at least two blatant design mistakes 1. see those electrolyte caps in the HOT airflow(!) 2. see the "PFC inductor" has made from single layer insulated magnet wire (light yellowish). Also the winding technology of that inductor deserves a possible failure due insulation weakness+bad construction.

Those design mistakes will be paid by poor guys without understanding of electronics and believe that a sub ~200EUR amp could be reliably good for their applications. Of course NOT.



Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 11:04pm
To finish up for now there's a few other bits and bobs to mention.

AC Mains draw

As already noted the Kam has PFC which really helps keep the AC input current under control. However, it's not a perfect looking PFC performance so I recorded a couple of shots of AC voltage and current with a 1.05kW output power (single channel).

So, the Kam with output of 1kHz, 8 Ohms, 1 channel driven. The Ac voltage and current waveforms are shown:


The current waveform is hardly a perfect sinusoid but at least it's drawing current for virtually all the cycle. The scale is 5A/division so roughly 10A peak and the rms current draw was 5.85A.

The Behringer uses a simple rectifier/capacitor arrangement and hence draws short bursts of high current. Under the same conditions as above:


Apologies the traces are aligned differently but you get the idea. Peak current for the same power output as the Kam was about 18A (10A per division for this reading) and the rms current was 7.69A. It should be noted that this does not mean the Behringer was using more power than the Kam, in fact both amps were drawing about the same (I forgot to note the reading but it was around 1.2KW), it's just the power factor of the Kam is better due to the PFC.
It does mean that the AC supply cables, connectors etc. get a harder run with the behringer as it is the rms current that causes the heating (power loss, I2R loss) and its also more likely the behringer will trip a circuit breaker or blow a fuse.

People often say how come they can get away with a 10A IEC inlet then? Well thats because the safety regulations require an audio amp to be tested at 1/8th its rated power as this is generally agreed to be representative of normal music played at just clipping levels. Thats why the behringer says "620W" on the back of it: 2 channels of 2.3kW = 4.6kW, divide 8 is 575W and hence with some losses it will draw 620W from the mains.  In theory this should be the "worse case" but as I've already said, used as a bass amplifier and driven into limiting the average power output will be much higher than 575W! It would be interesting to see what power it can be made to pull when used with a system and driven hard, I suspect it will be lower than you think!

EMC

Now I don't have any fancy EMC test equipment but I can connect a scope to the speaker outputs (with no input signal) and see what's leaking out! We expect to see some carrier signal remaining after the output filter but it should close to sinusoidal as any high frequencies are likely to cause common-mode or differential-mode radiation from the speaker leads.

So the behringer was scoped up (one channel on + and one on - speaker terminals due to bridged output arrangement):


The waveforms look nicely smooth and show a 348kHz carrier is used for the power amp stages (at least at idle). Since there are no strong high-frequency elements present I would surmise the Behringer is not going to create much interference, a good result!

Now the Kam:


Hmmmm, not so good. There's a good breakthrough of switching noise and ringing from the output stage suggesting a less than ideal layout and probably a lot of contamination of the internal ground reference. It's possible the Kam could cause issues with some equipment and in fact I did experience this when I did listening tests using this along with a Void QX5 amplifier. The Void amplifier was emitting a quiet but audible tone through the speakers when the Kam was running and this tone varied as the unit warmed up. The effect was just like an intermodulation tone or beat frequency as it started high, reduced right down to DC and then started climbing again, classic symptoms...  The noise ceased if I disconnected the Kam from the LMS and so just a ground connection into the system was enough to cause an issue (the amps were not fed from the same LMS output).

DC Offset

The DC offsets were noted:

Behringer Ch1: +11mV, Ch2: +56mV
Kam Ch1: 6.5mV, Ch2: 2.2mV

Nothing too nasty there then.

Limiter response speed

The Kam limiter was speedy, cutting down a 200Hz signal which was 6dB too hot in two half cycles (~5ms):


Apologies that it was 200Hz, it was supposed to be 1kHz but I messed up!

I then tested the Behringer at the originally planned 1kHz (D'oh!) and it was also fast, taking 2 half cycles to drop the gain:


This speedy response, without overshooting on gain reduction, should help keep signals clean when overdriven.

Thermal issues

I took some thermal images of both amps whilst running a fairly high output level for a minute or so to see if anything was getting worryingly hot!

The Kam had the hottest component, the output inductors were wound with quite thin wire and when driving 4 Ohm loads the wire was very hot and the core not far behind:


118 degrees for the wire itself and the core was getting up to 100 degrees as well. A short time later I stop the test as I was getting worried:


138 degrees!

The power supply heatsink also warmed up nicely but the transformer itself was also hotting up:


Transformer:

Overall view from top:

Otherwise it was OK but those output inductors certainly do get warm! Cramming so much into 1U certainly doesn't help get the heat out but under music conditions I assume it works OK otherwise we would have heard about it wouldn't we?

The Behringer fairs better, no doubt due to the colossal airflow that takes place when you pump the signal up a bit, those fans sure are noisy!!

Transformer:

Bridge rectifier:

Fan control circuit with dropper resistors:

Power amp section top view:

Output inductors:

Close up of FET driver chip:

Nothing too alarming here at least Smile

Well thats about it for what I've done already. I'll re-read the other posts and see if theres any test I can do to answer question. I did do some listening tests but since these things are subjective I haven't decided whether to write about them or not. Better you make your own minds up with these things Big smile



Posted By: spongebob
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 11:32pm
Teslaman - I can't confess to understanding all of the technical details that you have provided in these posts, but I would like to thank you for such an in-depth contribution to this forum. Do you think you will be reviewing other amplifiers in a manner similar to the above?


Posted By: infrasound
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 11:53pm
Thanks as well.

Great writeup, but the current comparison in the PFC section isn't so clear (although I can tell, doesn't make clear which is Berry, and which is Kam)

Feel free to give your opinion on sound quality (perhaps compared to the QX?), complete with disclaimer Smile


Posted By: Muckerbarnes1
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 9:02am
Good work David.
 
Totally agree with the overating IEC connectors and heat on the reservoir caps. Not to mention the temperatures on poor quality inductors.
 
I agree with U Viktor. A crash is inevitable.
 
With such high current variation I would not like such a device in any rack with any brand name. Also miffed at the linearity of the amps. Very poor.
 
The Behringer's storage is somwhat less at operating voltage. 10.6F x 84V = 890.3 Coulombs x 2 (rails) = 1780.8 Coulombs = 74.8 Joules. This is 17.9 calories... They are deffo LOW CALORIE  LOL


-------------
Billy Dawg.


Posted By: nuclearbass
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 10:33am
Originally posted by spongebob spongebob wrote:

Teslaman - I can't confess to understanding all of the technical details that you have provided in these posts, but I would like to thank you for such an in-depth contribution to this forum. Do you think you will be reviewing other amplifiers in a manner similar to the above?

totally agree with this, not seen a post as usfull and as filled with actual facts for a long time on here.... well done Clap


-------------
one life - have fun!
Force fusion pro audio


Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 5:51pm
im confused about the storage figures,surely ripple is a better measure than capacitance?

-------------
K. Edwards Electronics Engineers

North Staffordshire



Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Cheers for taking the time to test these, the Inuke 6000 looks good, shame about the current draw...looks like it would be trouble on generators...
Its interesting that the 6000 will sustain its output without dropping the voltage, the Inuke 3000 drops the level after a few seconds much like the Kam, it also has no breaker on the back.

As far as the current draw goes its not going to be any worse than any other amplifier that doesn't have PFC built in, and that includes virtually all of the heavyweight units and a lot of the switch mode supply ones too. With no PFC they all use rectification into a set of capacitors which will always pull peaky currents. Hence I wouldn't be worried, it's not a case that the Behringer is poor, more that the Kam is Good! For domestic appliances the rules are changing such that anything above a certain power needs PFC but for "professional applications" it's not mandatory, hence multi-kW amplifiers with no PFC.
I have amps from QSC, Void, Matrix and Ohm and none of them have PFC so will all draw peaky current from the mains.......

As for the sustained output, I may re-visit that and see if it does eventually limit the power or not but as I've shown, for music signals it should be just fine.

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

i have seen the original manufacturer of those KAM internals somewhere in the china backstage of prolight&sound in frankfurt. It still pulls the hot air to its capacitors quickly dry them out and let you buy another one of this scrap.
About the iNUKE: the whole thing has built around the IRS20957S which barely hits the entry level, it has made for cheapest car radios and does not even have real output feedback. The sample frequency is not 348Khz (or only in low signal or steady-state) because it is free running variable freq. controller with the lack of sync. capability.
As I saw it would make a voltage doubler circuitry by a relay and center tapped primary caps for low line operation. good luck with that! And deal with 200A+ current spikes and heavy AC line distortion :-D

U.Viktor I've noticed that you have a very black or white view of things! I agree that pulling hot air across the capacitors is a bad idea and they are only 85 degree rated types too. The generally accepted rule of thumb is that if the rated life of the capacitor is, for example, 2000 hours at 85 degrees then the life will double for every 10 degree reduction in temperature. Ultimately it's going to depend on what temperature they run at but thanks to the efficiency of the amp and taking account of the nature of music signals I doubt they will run that hot. I'll take a guess (for the sake of calculating a number) at 65 degrees in which case life might be 8000 hours which is the equivalent of 333 days of continuous running or 1000 days at 8 hours a day. Lets remember this amp is targeted at musicians, DJ's etc. and not touring companies! I suspect their usage might be a few hours a week in which case I don't think they have much to worry about, do you?

With regard to the iNuke, the IRS20957S is hardly entry level, it is used in some reference designs which have extremely good audio performance, I know because I've tested them! Yes, the typical application circuit is a self-oscillating second order delta-sigma type modulator but it happens to work quite well. You can of course use it differently if you wish, it's up to the designer. It can also be synchronised to an external clock if needed but not over it's entire PWM modulation range.
If you wanted you could turn it into a UcD type circuit with feedback from after the output filter, maybe that would appeal more to you?

The voltage doubler arrangement for 115V supplies is, I agree, a bit (no, a LOT) of a tall order! I can only assume they don't use a 10A IEC socket for the US market, otherwise it's going to be very limited in power before that 12A breaker goes! Stick to 230V I think...

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Does the 2x 2000W@4R with 33% burst ratings mean 2x 700W@4R CONTINUOUS real power?

During those particular test yes it is but I'm not saying that's the best the amplifier can do, that's just the result of the 33% test signal I used to represent worse case audio abuse. As I stated I think the Behringer will probably do about 1~1.2kW per channel continuous sine wave, limited by its 12A circuit breaker. For music it will happily produce 2kW into 4 Ohms per channel.  The Kam can only do 650W into 4 Ohms continuous sine wave but its happy to deliver 1.6kW under music conditions. Should be absolutely fine for most people...

Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

David

looking at your results for the iNuke:
"At 4 Ohms both channels driven we get 1.80kW: Peak mains current is now at 80A!"

Then checking the Behringer website info, and your images earlier in this thread, for this Amplifier it appears to be using a single IEC type 10A (rms) power connector.
Now your measurement is peak current, albeit with a reduced duty cycle, but the peak current rating of a 10A IEC connector is still only 14.14 amps.....
When I last looked up CE Compliance Regs, this would be a 'Fail'!
The KAM seems to be substantially better performing in this respect with only a 2:1 overload compared with over 5:1 for the NU6000.

OK, like me you have limited loads in terms of continuous power dissipation measurements, but how long will it take for the IEC connector to heat up to an unacceptable level and fail do you think?

Anyway, an interesting set of test results, but would like to see the sinewave output just into clipping and 33% voltage squarewave responses of both Amplifiers to be able to compare their performance with other Amplifier tests.

Don't know which type of Current probe you have, but the Amplifier output current waveform into a Resistive Load with no signal input can be interesting 
Then again, output current measurements into a Load with an Inductive component, just like the Le of a 'Speaker, give some 'spectacular' results with Class D....... 
A couple of MilliHenrys and 4 Ohms in series with 50% output Voltage at 1kHz? Wouldn't want to overload the output stages with too much back EMF now would we

Just seen UVictor's posts whilst writing this one - max continuous output without 'tripping' for 5 minutes would be interesting - and the test described above with the Inductive component added can show marked differences in performance where the various clocks aren't properly locked or synchronised respectively in different Class D/SMPSU Designs.

Keep up the good work
Mik

Hi Mik, I think the traces I put up for the limiter operation will give you some idea of the output under just clipping conditions since the limiter holds the output at the just clipping point. If you'd like to see some more detail i can use a phosphor scope and zoom in to see it properly Smile

The current probe I use is a Honeywell CSNR161,  DC-150kHz with 0.5% accuracy, it's nice little device Smile

I have a 0.65mH inductor here that will take 50A plus (an air cored beast from an old UPS) so I could use that but I don't have anything around 2mH. I don't suppose it would matter much, I could just change the test frequency to get the phase shift needed. I would expect the class-D to be very good with inductive loads (and capacitive ones) owing to its 4-quadrant operation. If I get the time i'll try something, what conditions would you suggest?


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

The 80A peaky line current draw comes from the AC line current distortion due primary side peak rectification.
This is not a real problem for the IEC connector but could have serious consequences if many of these connected to the power network, It is a PROBLEM for the electrical service provider, circuit breakers and especially risky when diesel generator is the power source!
It has a high probability not only KILLS the amps itself but hurting other sensitive equipments connected to the same network (CD players, mixers, etc..)
It is not a big surprise that most of modern high-power amplifiers have power factor correction (PFC) to eliminate these potentially killer current peaks...

As already mentioned there are a lot of products out there just as bad, why would this one be any worse?
I doubt that a flatted-top sine wave caused by this kind of load would cause any harm to other equipment, why would it?

Originally posted by snafu snafu wrote:

so it doe's roughly what it says on the tin ?.
As expected.
Good on behringer, keep up the good work.


Yes, I think it does and for the "weekend warriors" like myself £270 gets you a powerful, efficient bass amp! Since it's not bad run full range either then it could get you out a tight spot if your mid-top amp went down too but I'd stick with class-AB for that myself I think.

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Anything bellow 1% THD is OK. 
THD is not the most important thing how well a professional amp would perform.
However the lack of real output feedback in the iNUKE is a serious problem and renders this amp USELESS anywhere above driving sub sections. The undamped/uncontolled output LC filter causes unpredictable signal level variations with different speaker loads probably creates huge spikes in the mids/high freq. range.
I have seen/heard first series PKN amps ~10years before with similar problems so Behringer should have learnt something :-)
That KAM has at least two blatant design mistakes 1. see those electrolyte caps in the HOT airflow(!) 2. see the "PFC inductor" has made from single layer insulated magnet wire (light yellowish). Also the winding technology of that inductor deserves a possible failure due insulation weakness+bad construction.

Those design mistakes will be paid by poor guys without understanding of electronics and believe that a sub ~200EUR amp could be reliably good for their applications. Of course NOT.


Whether 1% THD is OK or not depends very much on what the spectrum of it is. 1% of low-order (2nd, 3rd, 5th harmonic) is normally fine but if it was huge amounts of 9th, 11th, 13th, etc. then it would sound horrible, especially as a mid-top amp.

The iNuke does have "real" feedback, its whole topology depends upon it to function, but I guess you mean it's taken before the output L-C filter. I don't agree that's always a big problem, the DCR of the inductor is likely 20-30 mOhms and the output impedance of the closed-loop power stage will be very low, especially at low frequencies. The output impedance of the amp is therefore going to be very low until the highest audio frequencies and so it doesn't matter what the load impedance swings are like they will not significantly affect the response of the amp. To calculate a number let assume the output impedance of the amp is bad, say 100 mOhms. If the load impedance went from 2 Ohm to 1000 Ohms then the output level would vary by just 0.21dB, I wouldn't say that's a disaster! The resistance of the speaker cable is likely to be far more significant so the amp is pretty blame-free all of a sudden....

On the Kam PFC inductor I would entirely agree it looks a bit weedy and badly constructed, I would at least expect it to be dipped in varnish to stop the windings vibrating.

Originally posted by spongebob spongebob wrote:

Teslaman - I can't confess to understanding all of the technical details that you have provided in these posts, but I would like to thank you for such an in-depth contribution to this forum. Do you think you will be reviewing other amplifiers in a manner similar to the above?

If there are any "interesting" amps out there that people want testing then I will consider it. The only problem is time as I don't have much and it takes quite a while to do all this stuff. The reason I was keen with the iNuke and Kam is because they are cheap and yet promise great power, if they lived up to their names then they are game changers for the weekend warrior types like myself. As it is I think they are good for bass, especially at 8 Ohms per channel, and not too bad for full-range or mid-top use though I would still prefer a class-AB in this role.

Originally posted by infrasound infrasound wrote:

Thanks as well.

Great writeup, but the current comparison in the PFC section isn't so clear (although I can tell, doesn't make clear which is Berry, and which is Kam)

Feel free to give your opinion on sound quality (perhaps compared to the QX?), complete with disclaimer Smile

Yes sorry for that, I'll re-read and make it clearer.
My listening tests were a bit flawed due to the venue but I may still give an opinion, maybe Tongue

Originally posted by Muckerbarnes1 Muckerbarnes1 wrote:

Good work David.
 
With such high current variation I would not like such a device in any rack with any brand name. Also miffed at the linearity of the amps. Very poor.
 
The Behringer's storage is somwhat less at operating voltage. 10.6F x 84V = 890.3 Coulombs x 2 (rails) = 1780.8 Coulombs = 74.8 Joules. This is 17.9 calories... They are deffo LOW CALORIE  LOL

Already covered the current thing but can you elaborate on your disappointment with the linearity. I guess you mean the THD? I didn't think it was too bad but certainly no decent class-AB!

The energy figures I used included the primary side capacitor storage as that is very relevant for switch-mode supplies, that energy is just as accessible from the secondary side as from the secondary caps directly. Yes there are some small losses in the transformer and switching devices but that energy is still available to the amp.
How it compares to a 4kW class-AB is a relevant point but I dont really have one I can take figures from. If it were to have say 40,000uF per rail and a rail voltage of 150V then the class-AB would have an energy storage of 900J. From that perspective the Class-D's are a bit lightweight and hence cannot generate the same power at 31Hz as they can at 1kHz. They're not disastrous by any means though.

Originally posted by kedwardsleisure kedwardsleisure wrote:

im confused about the storage figures,surely ripple is a better measure than capacitance?

Ultimately for the period of time between refreshes (100Hz for our 50Hz mains) its the energy stored that will be used to fill the gaps. A smaller stored energy will lead to a faster lowering of voltage, or more ripple, hence the two are related. Its just easier for people to comprehend I thought, ripple is of no concern to the end user, just the available undistorted output power.

EDIT for spelling


Posted By: audiomik
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 9:50pm
David
thanks for your replies

Re: "he current probe I use is a Honeywell CSNR161, DC-150kHz with 0.5% accuracy, it's nice little device

Firstly your current probe may struggle with it's bandwidth limit to really see what's happening to the current output with an Inductive component in the load.

Do you have a differential input Analog 'scope with a 'third' input such as simultaneous trig view or better still 4 Channel?
If so, then use the differential input to look at the current by using a low value non-inductive power resistor (a number of 2 Watt metal film type in parallel for approx 0.1R) and the third/fourth inputs to look at the Amplifier Output Voltage and act as a sync source.

Your 0.65mH should be fine, try 2kHz input signal to start with when you have 4 Ohms resistive in series.... it still gets nearer than purely resistive to simulate a 'real driver'. You won't need high output levels to see what's happening and an FFT/Spectral analysis of the Current waveform at different Amplifier Output Voltages if you can do that will be interesting

keep up the good work!

Mik

-------------
Warning! May contain Nuts
plus springs, washers, screws, etc, etc.


Posted By: simonh
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 10:25pm
Have to agree with spongebob Dave and thank you for taking the time out to carry out such a detailed analysis.  Now I must confess it's way over my head but it's clear to see that's it useful and beneficial to the guy's in the know.  Cheers S.


Posted By: Nick Sasquash
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 10:33pm
Telslaman.... quality work, keep the amp tests coming Clap

-------------
https://operationsoundsystemrecords.bandcamp.com/

https://www.facebook.com/OperationSoundSystem/



Posted By: vibez
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 7:34am
Having read this thread yesterday i decided to try my inuke (that usually run monitors ) on sub just for the fun ofit. I must confess that i was quite suprised by the result. i hung two 1850 loaded scoops off each channel and this little budget amp spanked them pretty well. I must admit that i wouldn't feel absolutely comfortable using this on sub long term but for emergency situations i wouldn't hesitate to use this to get me out of trouble. The only thing i did notice was that when it hit clip level the limiting was very audible but once limiter on dcx was set to prevent this it sounded pretty good and certainly delivered more bang per buck than i have ever heard from an amp in this price range. Haven't tried the dsp yet but will have a play at the weekend when i have more time.

Top review and suprisingly good budget amp


Posted By: MessyM2k8
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 10:18pm
Nice report.
Out of interest, what test gear are you using?


Posted By: VentureSound
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:23am
Teslaman, thanks for all your tests, it was a very interesting read indeed.  I would be keen to see some similar results on a Peavey IPR series, as I guess they are somewhat comparable being class D, 'new generation' and cheap.
I've heard an IPR on subs and was suprised as well, sounded pretty good to me! Cannot remember the model, but it was one of the lower ones like 1-2KW.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 1:22am
i think what you have done is superb.
as suggested a few more "compare-the-power-amp.com"s would be very welcome by one and all.
you are a true soldier to the cause and i wish to thank you for all your hard work and the right up has been a damn good read.... gotta love those thermal pics too!!

keep up the good work and we all thank you for your time.


Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 4:06am
Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

I've heard an IPR on subs and was suprised as well, sounded pretty good to me! Cannot remember the model, but it was one of the lower ones like 1-2KW.
Interestingly I'd read on another forum, a comparison between an iNuke and IPR - all subjective of course - with the user claiming the IPR sounded better on subs than the iNuke... with the IPR DSP about to arrive in Australia I'm keen to see some solid opinions and tests before I decide to buy one (or many)


Posted By: Timebomb
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 2:01pm
Id be interested to read that if you've got a link BitSmasher?

I would be very keen to see measurements of the Peavey IPR and the Crest Prolite,  it seems only the smaller 2 models are available though, the larger ones have been forthcoming for several years now, and in the UK we haven't even got the IPR3000 yet i dont think.  They are defiantly on the short list for budget lightweights though.


-------------
James Secker          facebook.com/soundgearuk
James@soundgear.co.uk               www.soundgear.co.uk


Posted By: MessyM2k8
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

Teslaman, thanks for all your tests, it was a very interesting read indeed.  I would be keen to see some similar results on a Peavey IPR series, as I guess they are somewhat comparable being class D, 'new generation' and cheap.
I've heard an IPR on subs and was suprised as well, sounded pretty good to me! Cannot remember the model, but it was one of the lower ones like 1-2KW.


http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=peavey_IPR-1600" rel="nofollow - Peavey IPR 1600 Tested here




Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by audiomik audiomik wrote:

Firstly your current probe may struggle with it's bandwidth limit to really see what's happening to the current output with an Inductive component in the load.

Do you have a differential input Analog 'scope with a 'third' input such as simultaneous trig view or better still 4 Channel?
If so, then use the differential input to look at the current by using a low value non-inductive power resistor (a number of 2 Watt metal film type in parallel for approx 0.1R) and the third/fourth inputs to look at the Amplifier Output Voltage and act as a sync source.

Your 0.65mH should be fine, try 2kHz input signal to start with when you have 4 Ohms resistive in series.... it still gets nearer than purely resistive to simulate a 'real driver'. You won't need high output levels to see what's happening and an FFT/Spectral analysis of the Current waveform at different Amplifier Output Voltages if you can do that will be interesting
 

Hi Mik, Yes you're right, the current probe is fine for basic AC input current analysis but won't show the harmonics of the typical amp/smps switching frequencies. My scope is 4 channel so i'll definitely be having a go at the inductive load testing to see what's going on.
The scope also does FFT but doesn't have any low-pass filtering so any signals above the Nyquist point (which is timebase dependant) get aliased down into the spectrum and can give false readings. I'll have a look at it though as it could be interesting.

Originally posted by vibez vibez wrote:

Having read this thread yesterday i decided to try my inuke (that usually run monitors ) on sub just for the fun ofit. I must confess that i was quite suprised by the result. i hung two 1850 loaded scoops off each channel and this little budget amp spanked them pretty well. I must admit that i wouldn't feel absolutely comfortable using this on sub long term but for emergency situations i wouldn't hesitate to use this to get me out of trouble. The only thing i did notice was that when it hit clip level the limiting was very audible but once limiter on dcx was set to prevent this it sounded pretty good and certainly delivered more bang per buck than i have ever heard from an amp in this price range. Haven't tried the dsp yet but will have a play at the weekend when i have more time.

Top review and suprisingly good budget amp

Was that an NU6000 DSP then? If so then I'm not surprised it sounded OK. To really give people confidence it needs someone like yourself to actually run it at a gig and spank it into 4 Ohms for a few hours, that's something I can't do. I think it will be a cool running and reliable amp so as long as it sounds good too then we have a winner!

Originally posted by MessyM2k8 MessyM2k8 wrote:

Nice report. 
Out of interest, what test gear are you using?

The audio performance side is done with an Audio Precision "Portable One Plus" which is interfaced to a computer with GPIB. A custom Visual Basic script then runs in excel to allow me to make graphs etc. The Portable One Plus was never intended as an R&D instrument really so its difficult to get data off of it but this little set-up works really well and the analogue performance of the AP is outstanding.
Power metering is courtesy of a Hameg NM8115-2 Programmable Power Meter.
Burst signals were generated on the computer using the MTPM signal generator program, which is brill!
Scope is a Tektronix TDS2024B 4-channel 200MHz

Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

Teslaman, thanks for all your tests, it was a very interesting read indeed.  I would be keen to see some similar results on a Peavey IPR series, as I guess they are somewhat comparable being class D, 'new generation' and cheap. 
I've heard an IPR on subs and was suprised as well, sounded pretty good to me! Cannot remember the model, but it was one of the lower ones like 1-2KW. 

Yes the Peavey class-D's would be more than welcome to visit the bench. I suspect they are the same chip-set as the Behringer but different layouts etc. can make big differences to how things sound. As someone mentioned in this thread Abletronics has already tested the 1600 so you can see the results of that here  http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=peavey_IPR-1600" rel="nofollow - http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptesting.php?z=peavey_IPR-1600

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

Id be interested to read that if you've got a link BitSmasher?

I would be very keen to see measurements of the Peavey IPR and the Crest Prolite,  it seems only the smaller 2 models are available though, the larger ones have been forthcoming for several years now, and in the UK we haven't even got the IPR3000 yet i dont think.  They are defiantly on the short list for budget lightweights though.

I'd be very interested in a link to that comparison too please BitSmasher!

If someone has an IPR3000 or Crest Prolite they want testing then drop me a PM.

Cheers,
Dave.


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 6:20pm
It looks as if the overall conclusion is that the Behringer works pretty well -- it's obviously designed down to a minimum price, but unlike the KAM there don't seem to be any major design weaknesses (e.g. internal temperatures) other than the lack of PFC (in other words, just like most other amps on the market).

Several reasonable-quality kilowatts for £270 and a few kilograms seems a bargain to me...

If you drive continuous sinewaves (not music) into 4 ohm loads on both channels then it'll shut down, so don't do that :-)

If you want to drive paralleled 2 ohms loads to destruction buy several and put them in a rack and don't parallel the speakers up (make up some 8-core leads?), they'll still weigh next to nothing. 4 NU6000 will drive 8 8ohm subs with 1.2kW sinewave each continuously if you want and cost about a grand for 10kW rms, I can't think of anything else close to this.

P.S. The KAM looks the standard Kobble Chinese class-D amp that been around for years under various names (Synq, DAS, Thomann...) which has a reputation for being monumentally unreliable -- and it's more than double the price of the NU6000.






Posted By: cuivenion
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 1:20pm
Was having a read of the specs and didn't see the amps input sensitivity anywhere in the manual. Anyone know what it is? 

-------------
help!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 2:07pm
Gain is 42dB with controls at maximum and therefore for full power you need an input of 0.82V rms for full power into 8 Ohms or 0.71V rms for full power into 4 Ohms assuming music conditions.

These figures also tally with my measurements for output power vs input voltage (which I didn't publish as there not really of interest!)


Posted By: Amplitude-audio
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 11:03am
Hell of a bench test!

Has anybody run any mid-tops off the berry yet. If so how do they sound. I'm sure there will be perceivable differences between this and one of the big boys amps but I mean are they acceptable enough?


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Amplitude-audio Amplitude-audio wrote:

Hell of a bench test!

Has anybody run any mid-tops off the berry yet. If so how do they sound. I'm sure there will be perceivable differences between this and one of the big boys amps but I mean are they acceptable enough?


What would you except from International rectifier IRS20xx free-oscillating driver without *real* output feedback?
It s less than a car stereo quality! Some mid and high speakers are harsh while another sounds like voice of singer got flu :-)
Barely suitable for any of professional works for sure...


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by Amplitude-audio Amplitude-audio wrote:

Hell of a bench test!

Has anybody run any mid-tops off the berry yet. If so how do they sound. I'm sure there will be perceivable differences between this and one of the big boys amps but I mean are they acceptable enough?


What would you except from International rectifier IRS20xx free-oscillating driver without *real* output feedback?
It s less than a car stereo quality! Some mid and high speakers are harsh while another sounds like voice of singer got flu :-)
Barely suitable for any of professional works for sure...

It sounds fine to my ears, not as smooth and seductive as the best class-AB amps but certainly not harsh, better than you would expect for its power and price.

U.Viktor, have you even listened to an NU6000 amplifier? I gather from your posts that you have a certain preference for PKN and little else is any good for you. There is room in the universe for half decent budget amps for those of us who can't afford the likes of PKN etc.

My advice is go listen to one for yourself, just like with any product, and make up your own mind.

Maybe someone would like to offer a PKN amplifier for the test bench! Smile


Posted By: U.Viktor
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 2:34pm
I was invited to see (partly) an in-house test of a pair NU3000 and NU6000 when they become available in Austrian retailer not long time ago. My fiends has quite high level of electronic expertise so I believe everything what they measured/told me and showed me on oscilloscopes and analyizers. These amps was also completely disassembled therefore their circuitry have been understood too.
We did listening on NEXO PS15 as well as middle sized studio monitor boxes. Of course a good quality AB-class analog amplifier is the best for mid/high range however Crown I-Tech (internal DSP bypassed!) and PKN XD/XE series are also very good. The problem is that difficult to get a good and affordable AB class analog amplifier with power level required today and usually these analog amps have really no proper regulated(PFC) power supply...
What I wanted to say is that the iNUKE has a type of circuitry which is not really adequate as serious professional equipment. i do not say that would not sound nicely on your boxes however maybe will not be perfect on MOST type of the boxes.


Posted By: Amplitude-audio
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 3:43pm
Hi Teslaman,
you've experience of running mid-tops with this amp? If so, how were the speakers rated?

For what it's worth, in the setting I'm thinking of using them neither amp nor speaker will be working hard. Even if it's specs have been fluffed up a little the berry seems cheaper and lighter than other amps that'd do the trick.

As informed as I'm sure everyones tech info is I'm more interested in the views of people who've given them real world testing in this instance.


Posted By: J.S.
Date Posted: 08 October 2012 at 9:05pm
Hi everyone,
It was a pleasure to read such nice technical info :) Thank you!

We've been using a pair of iNUKE 6000 (no DSP) by our small company here in Poland. We used very differently: with double 18" Kilomax reflex boxes, single PD1850 BP6th boxes, wedge Ohm monitors, JBL JRX 125, Yamaha S 215 IV and a couple of others for the last 6 months or so.
Every time the amps technically did a good job. The sound was not as nice as from Crown xls 602 (older model) or Crest CPX 1500 or even lightweight Crown xti 1000. The difference was audible, but not in a way we could describe what's really wrong with the sound... So that wasn't a big difference.

Now one of the amps is broken, doesn't start or flash any lights. It did not work with 2 Ohm impedance even once. Maybe it was broken during transportation to a gig, because the amps were traveling loose outside the rack. No visible damage, maybe just because of vibration something got loose. We will see what the warranty claim ends with ;)

John


Posted By: ultimate_fish
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 8:38am
Hi Teslaman,

I wondered if you might be interested in doing some tests on the Thomann d4-500.

Not a massively powerful amp, but very useful for monitors in the weekend warrior market because it offers four channels of 250w in a 1u package.

Got one I could send you in the new year. It would be interesting to know how it performs on the bench.

I've also got a tsa-4700 which is a heavier, more powerful offering with a class h amp and smps.

Let me know if you have the time/inclination.


Posted By: jbinks-v2
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:30am
Originally posted by ultimate_fish ultimate_fish wrote:

Hi Teslaman,

I wondered if you might be interested in doing some tests on the Thomann d4-500.

Not a massively powerful amp, but very useful for monitors in the weekend warrior market because it offers four channels of 250w in a 1u package.

Got one I could send you in the new year. It would be interesting to know how it performs on the bench.

I've also got a tsa-4700 which is a heavier, more powerful offering with a class h amp and smps.

Let me know if you have the time/inclination.

+1

I'd also be interested in knowing how the d4-500 performs. I have been eyeing them up as suitable compact monitor amps and backups for the more meaty amps.
Potential for great value for money!

Cheers,
John



Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:03am
The d4-500 doesn't appear to be available any more?


Posted By: ultimate_fish
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:27pm
I queried this with Thomann and apparently they haven't discontinued it. I got a reply from someone called Markus Bernard telling me:

"it's temporarily unavailable. The delivery date from the manufacturer is the 17.12.2012"


I'm not sure why they took it off the web catalogue altogether, perhaps they don't want it to look like they have stocking problems... Who knows.


Perhaps wait and see if it really does reappear by new year.



Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:47pm
Has anyone blown a Behringer up yet? Just wondered what breaks and if its fixable when it does go bang.

-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: nuclearbass
Date Posted: 16 November 2012 at 6:50pm
2 guys i know run 2 pd loaded 1850 horns a channel, they say there worried that they might blow there drivers cos of the power it has.....

i get the feeling they havent given the 1850s any where near enuff power to hear what they can do!!!


-------------
one life - have fun!
Force fusion pro audio


Posted By: ultimate_fish
Date Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:53am
Any that fail would be doing so under warranty so I doubt you'll get much information yet. 

I'd also suspect that any failures are pretty catastrophic, taking out far more surface mount components than would be practical to consider repairing.


Posted By: J.S.
Date Posted: 29 December 2012 at 1:44am
Hi,
Our second NU6000 is dead! It may be because it was not treated well, outside of rack, vibrations etc. No visible damage inside or outside...

The warranty claim on the first one went out ok. We returned it to the shop where it was bought (hometown, Poznań, Poland). They contacted the polish distributor. We had the amp back fixed with no cost within two weeks time.
Cheers,
John.


Posted By: Chase McKnight
Date Posted: 18 March 2013 at 4:18pm
Dear All,

Here is Mr. Behringer's response on Sound Forums regarding NU6000 issues-
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/1616-behringer-inuke-nu6000-amplifier-4.html#post51896

"We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Unfortunately, these things happen - even with parts from most reputable suppliers such as IR. 

No matter what, we will get this right.

The iNuke amps are some of our most successful products and have proven to be very reliable. We have heavily invested in the design of this technology and are about to release a new 12,000 Watt version.

Like all our products, they are covered by our 3-Year Warranty program.

Warm regards

Uli"

Don't hesitate to contact MUSIC Group at (702) 800-8290 or email care@music-group.com for technical support, parts, or warranty issues! 


Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group




Posted By: Amplitude-audio
Date Posted: 26 April 2013 at 10:02am
Had a good read of the thread that the above post is from, plus some x32 range related and have to say I'm impressed with how pro-active behringer are regarding these products. What I couldn't find anywhere was whether the faulty batch were identifiable and being recalled or is there still the danger of buying a faulty unit.

I for one would be interested in trying out the dsp versions on monitor duties if they fix the issue and turn out to have got this as right, bang for buck wise, as the ep amps.


Posted By: gump
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 11:18pm
Superb write up and review. Good detail, very interesting. Thanks!


Posted By: gump
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 11:18pm
Oops double post. Thanks again though!


Posted By: Scuzzymodo
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 12:03pm
Great read! Cheers for your time and effort


Posted By: Silesia-Art
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 8:13pm
I'm writing to "J.S."

Siemasz!

Na tym forum chyba nie ma możliwości pisania wiadomości wewnętrznych, a mam kilka pytań dotyczących wzmacniacza z tematu.
Mój mail to dj_eliot@o2.pl odezwij się do mnie to pogadamy jeśli można.

Pozdro.


So what do you think about play real music with drums and bass g. at 4 ohm ?

How to compare this NU6000 with analog class H amplifiers (POWER) 1000w real power at 4 ohm or more  ? how to compare in real music ?


Posted By: Silesia-Art
Date Posted: 30 May 2013 at 8:26pm
Somebody asked about D4-500 - it's bad amp!

Bad sound (too much high frequences and not enough mid-low) and bad power (similar to class AB 2x200w@4ohm but in bass freq. similar to 2x100w@4ohm...)


Posted By: Reticuli
Date Posted: 05 October 2013 at 11:00pm
Very simple (I hope) question I have...
 
So what is the real-world peak output of the Behringer?  I realize that might not be a spec that the reviewer here is comfortable necessarily using, but it's one a lot of speaker and sub specs have.  I'm thinking in terms of matching amp to speaker capabilities, or vice versa, and also in terms of voltage limiting to prevent driver damage assuming proper filter and crossover settings are used. 
 
If that's a tough spec to actually quantify for some reason, what's the lowest power handling rating for a properly-rated speaker you would drive each channel of this with to full power, and what's the highest power handling rating speaker you'd want to pair these with but still get the most (in your opinion) out of the speaker?
 


Posted By: Reticuli
Date Posted: 15 October 2013 at 7:46pm
And is 3.3 ohms when bridging a nu3000 or using the nu6000 a definite way to kick the amp into self protect?


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Reticuli Reticuli wrote:

Very simple (I hope) question I have...
 
So what is the real-world peak output of the Behringer?  I realize that might not be a spec that the reviewer here is comfortable necessarily using, but it's one a lot of speaker and sub specs have.  I'm thinking in terms of matching amp to speaker capabilities, or vice versa, and also in terms of voltage limiting to prevent driver damage assuming proper filter and crossover settings are used. 
 
If that's a tough spec to actually quantify for some reason, what's the lowest power handling rating for a properly-rated speaker you would drive each channel of this with to full power, and what's the highest power handling rating speaker you'd want to pair these with but still get the most (in your opinion) out of the speaker?
 

Do you mean peak in the sense of peak voltage or do you mean peak in the sense of power for short bursts like in a music signal? As per my report the music-like output ratings are:
1.37kW into 8 Ohms, 2.05kW into 4 Ohms for full-range or mid-top duty
1.16kW into 8 Ohms, 1.80kW into 4 Ohms for Bass duty

If you wanted peak figures in a "peak voltage" sense then you can double these power figures or convert it to voltage. Peak voltage for full range is 148V/8 Ohms or 128V/4 Ohms, and for bass duties 136V/8 Ohms and 120V/4 Ohms.

In terms of matching an amp to a speaker then I believe conventional wisdom is to have the amplifier rms power equal to double the continuous rms rating of the loudspeaker, or equal to the "Programme power" rating of the speaker. Provided you don't abuse the amplifier (lots of clipping) or use an LMS with the limiters set appropriately then this approach is considered OK. Speakers are damaged through the long-term average input power being too high (overheating) or for mechanical reasons (inappropriate high-pass filter settings or none at all). 

Having an amp capable of double the thermal rating of a loudspeaker sounds dangerous but when you consider the "crest factor" of music it makes perfect sense. You actually need a significantly higher power amp to be able to deliver anything near the thermal ability of the speaker. That gives you extra headroom also allowing a very clean sound even at high levels. Even the most heavily compressed music will have a crest factor of 6dB or more, meaning the average power will be one quarter of the power during the musical peaks, hence, provided you are not clipping, your 2kW amp will deliver an average power of no more than 500W...
I hope my explanation makes sense Smile

Of course if you further compress the music, or drive any stage of your signal chain into distortion (which decreases crest factor) then the safety margin gets eroded and eventually you will burn out the speaker.


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Reticuli Reticuli wrote:

And is 3.3 ohms when bridging a nu3000 or using the nu6000 a definite way to kick the amp into self protect?

Not sure on the nu3000 but it was possible to make the nu6000 shut down when driving two 4 Ohm loads very hard. I'm hoping they've rectified this issue by bringing in the limiter before the power supply locks out, after all you want the show to continue and not lose sound mid-gig!
I think I read that the nu3000 does this correctly, making sure the limiter acts first, so you may get away with 3.3 Ohms on that but I'd be hesitant with the 6000.
Only one way to find out of course Smile I don't think you will damage anything trying...


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Chase McKnight Chase McKnight wrote:

Dear All,

Here is Mr. Behringer's response on Sound Forums regarding NU6000 issues-
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/1616-behringer-inuke-nu6000-amplifier-4.html#post51896

"We have since investigated the problem and found the root cause to be a defective diode in the power supply. We received a defective batch of MBRS1100 Schottky diodes made by International Rectifier (IR) which is one of the largest, US-listed semicon companies.

This particular diode was used in the first amp deliveries and we have since reworked all inventory to make sure new shipments are perfectly fine. We will certainly rework all products in the field to make sure you have a great customer experience.

Unfortunately, these things happen - even with parts from most reputable suppliers such as IR. 

No matter what, we will get this right.

The iNuke amps are some of our most successful products and have proven to be very reliable. We have heavily invested in the design of this technology and are about to release a new 12,000 Watt version.

Like all our products, they are covered by our 3-Year Warranty program.

Warm regards

Uli"

Don't hesitate to contact MUSIC Group at (702) 800-8290 or email care@music-group.com for technical support, parts, or warranty issues! 


Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group



As I reported in another thread the amplifier I used for the test suffered from this exact failure, confirming its credibility somewhat. Said amp was replaced without question and its replacement is still going strong. I'm still of the opinion this is a good value amp and its a shame such an issue spoiled the party.


Posted By: Amplitude-audio
Date Posted: 16 October 2013 at 12:09pm
One of mine drives a drum-fill more than most drummers care for with headroom to spare. The dynamic EQ is great for taming high mids that get aggressive at high levels.

Even if it weren't capable of it's claimed output, it's great value for what it does do.

Seems the 12000 is a step closer to becoming a reality than I'd imagined it could be...

http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Behringer-iNUKE-Power-Amp/PP2?origin=product-ads&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_campaign=PLA+Behringer&utm_content=HgcsCyop|dc_pcrid_32201669359_plid__kword__match__




Posted By: Reticuli
Date Posted: 18 October 2013 at 12:32am
They're Lab Subs.  If the amps start going into protect trying to run them with the Lab 12's wired in parallel, do you think it would be worth it to easily rewire them in a series instead internally?  I thought they were actually biamp-wired to the NL4 male port on the back of the subs, but they are not.  So biamping with a 4 conductor cable would require some major rewiring/regluing inside.  Parallel to series would be pretty easy, though.


Posted By: jesso
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 1:33pm
The Kam is bridgeable right?
I currently have an inuke 6000.  I use it only to run one dynacord dlite sub 115.
It's not as loud or as deep sounding as the internal dynacord amp on my other sub (the matching power sub 115) which is 1000 dynacord watts bridged into the 15 inch sub. 
I'm wondering would the Kam do a better job than the inuke if I bridged it.....
Any thoughts?


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 2:18pm
I don't expect the KAM to do any better. The reason the dynacord sounds better is likely due to the fact it will have EQ and high-pass filtering built in, intended to improve the subs performance.
Try a known-good sounding external amp instead to confirm this point if you can but the inuke 6000 is a good bass amp and has around 1000 "real watts" into an 8 Ohm load per channel.

Bridging an amp always increases the stress on it so its unlikely to sound better unless you really do need more power (unlikely).

If the dynacord has EQ and filtering built in then you could mimic that with an external speaker management system (e.g. ultradrive etc.) or use an inuke 6000 DSP unit and set the filters accordingly.


Posted By: simonp1100
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 6:17pm
Did Behringer have any problems on the power supply PCB with the viper start up ????.


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 6:39pm
In the unit I had the failed diode was in the low-power part of the supply, driven by the Viper IC. The Viper IC itself seemed OK but was overheating and protecting itself due to the diode failure.

No issues with the amp starting up when the diode was OK.


Posted By: simonp1100
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 6:52pm
Just repaired one with the viper chip blown, opto isolator open circuit & a few diodes / resistors also taken out.


Posted By: teslaman
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 7:06pm
Was one of the schottky's rectifiers on the secondary side blown? If so that sounds like a similar problem, was the amp left powered for a while whilst faulty?


Posted By: simonp1100
Date Posted: 11 November 2013 at 7:10pm
Yes one of the schottky's rectifier on the secondary side was shorted & the NTC was blown as well, replaced schottky's on secondary side with slightly higher rated ones and NTC changed.


Posted By: alex2013
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 1:10am
have you come across an inuke 6000 that would keep going into protective mode,or in other words keep resetting itself,looking for some knowledge on this issue


Posted By: Tony Wilkes
Date Posted: 21 November 2013 at 10:43am
I thought all of these had a 3 year warranty, so why are they going to repair houses?

Tony

-------------
www.forteaudio.eu - BMS - db-Mark Processors - Lexon (SAE)


Posted By: seregan1
Date Posted: 29 November 2013 at 12:26pm
I have bought 2 years back six amplifiers PROst T4M. D-class, weight of 8,5 kg, 1000 ватт at 8 ом, 2000 ватт at 4 ом of loading. Work in three bands of amplification – Low. Mid. Hi. Compared with Martin Audio MA2.8s. PROst T4M has shown excellent results of job.

Photo of amplifiers and acoustic systems I shall lay out later.

I think, it is better to create a separate theme about them.



Posted By: tv00
Date Posted: 28 April 2014 at 9:55pm
Which one would you prefer if you had no other choice:
T.amp TSA 4-700 or behrigner inuke 6000?

The TSA Claims 2x1600W@8ohms in bridge mode.


Posted By: velihast
Date Posted: 14 August 2014 at 9:16am
I would like to know also. Is that bridge system good enough to power ?


Posted By: Sabbelbacke
Date Posted: 14 August 2014 at 1:34pm
The TSA is not a typical Bass-Amp, there are others out there which do much more bass with the same wattage power. It´s fine for the money, though. 2 Ohm ist not recommended with this one, we and several customers owned/own quite a number of these Amps - 4 Ohms is ok, 2 Ohms not. The wattage power stated in the user manual also is measured with a 12db Crest signal, so its not 4 x 800 Watt RMS. A german magazin has tested this unit and if I recall correct, its about 500 Watts at 4 Ohm (which - for the price - still is a good value...)


Posted By: JOEDL1509
Date Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:11am

Thank you Dave for the test. I am not too clued up with all the technicality but it was an interesting read. I am planning on purchasing the NU6000 DSP and was wondering if you or anyone for the matter can assist with a question regarding the NU6000 DSP, seeing that yourll have more experience.

With the DSP section of the amp, it has a setting for the peak limiter (in the configuration screen via laptop connectivity).
Does the "W" stand for watts and if so, when one moves the knob to the approximate wattage of the speaker (say 300Wrms), will this feature limit the volume/ output given to the speaker even if the amp gain knobs are turned to maximum.
 
I am wanting to use the NU6000 to power a pair of midtop (300Wrms each) on one channel and a pair of bass bins (700Wrms each) on the other. This will be used for mobile dj application.
 
I do know how to set the cross over points on the unit, just the peak limiter I am a bit puzzled about


Posted By: Swampgas
Date Posted: 01 October 2014 at 11:41pm
I am ignorant when it comes to a lot of the technical stuff discussed in this thread, but I think I get the gist. Here is a "real world" experience I would like to share.  I have owned a 6000DSP for a while now. I purchased it in hopes I could run my modest PA with one amplifier. My system consists of (2) 1x12'' tops rated at 600 watts RMS each, and (2) 18'' subs rated at 800 watts RMS each.
 
The first time I used it was outdoors in very high heat and out in the sun. I ran it agressively without a single hiccup. This was with canned music. The second was with a small band for a wedding under an event tent. Overall volume wasn't super loud and everthing went well. Last Saturday, my band played for a large outdoor gathering. Everything mic'd with an experienced guy running FOH. I couldn't tell from behind the monitors but the sound guy told me the system would periodically "drop out" and immediately come back.
 
One side ran the subs (4ohms) and the other ran the highs (also a 4 ohm load.) This wasn't thermal shutdown and the amp wasn't being abused. The clip light would ocassionally blip, but nothing pegged. During the breaks we played dance stuff with a lot of sub bass, etc. with no problems. With the band it was different.
 
I've been trying to figure out if it's the venue's power that was the problem or the amp just not handling a 4 ohm load well.


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 19 October 2014 at 1:55pm
got a 6000dsp on the way to run my setup for the disco's and will be usin it every week i will try it out on my 18" reflex's and my supers and i will give an honest review on what it can or cant do Smile


-------------
feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: bmholbro
Date Posted: 28 October 2014 at 9:54pm
I purchased one of these "B Stock" off a make an offer deal on Ebay for what I perceived as a good buy.  I actually almost purchased a 2nd but thought I would test it out on my subs before pulling the trigger again.  I have mostly powered gear for my mobile DJ work and underground parties but recently unloaded my rental B rig single subs and invested in some Yamaha CW218V Cabinets... I know not the most beastly dual 18 but they are extremely popular in our scene here for larger underground parties... Behringer actually mispackaged my amp so I received a DSP version instead.  It took a few minutes to understand the screens--basic and the software is PC only--but not a bad add on for the money.  On my last techno night the Inuke6000 pushed both CW218s one per side with ease and we really weren't able to remotely push them in a medium sized club.  Amp seemed happy all night.  I wish I had purchased the 2nd unit now based on performance.  Can't speak for reliability but it more than did the job for me.  


Posted By: app
Date Posted: 24 March 2015 at 6:45pm
Ive used the inuke6000dsp in two sessions which have lasted over 6hours each. No problems with the amp.



 




-------------
"what!?"


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 24 March 2015 at 6:52pm
have used my nuke on over 20 gigs no problems so far Thumbs Up


-------------
feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: app
Date Posted: 24 March 2015 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by jammin75 jammin75 wrote:

have used my nuke on over 20 gigs no problems so far Thumbs Up


I think weve talked about it earlier somewhere but what do you drive with the amp and what kinda limiter settings you use?

Im just checking things in winisd and if I trust the 1550w of the finnish audiosites test and the result here 1800w I could use the amp with limiters set real high.

Maybe I try to give some more juice to the drivers in the session next month...


-------------
"what!?"


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 24 March 2015 at 7:08pm
reflex subs no limiter set Big smile


-------------
feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: bmholbro
Date Posted: 30 March 2015 at 5:59pm
I ended up purchasing a 2nd of these used as a spare but haven't done more than test it.  We have used these to push the two CW218 mildly at our club events a half dozen times ~5 hours duration.  Limiters set at 1900 each time but again not really pushed.  I had the opportunity to setup our rig in a warehouse for halloween... pretty much just pushed the subs hard for 6+ hours without issues with minimal/hard techno/techno all night.  Really, really pleased with the performance of this amp. Snagged a 2nd one used as a backup or for when I have the opportunity to setup another pair of subs for a bigger event.  


Posted By: anulum
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 8:46pm
Hi there.

Need some advice guys, 

Got pair of PD2450 8Ohm and Im considering the option to obtain Nuke 6000 dsp to fuel them and setup it for sub only.

is this combo gonna work well together?

tks


Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 9:15pm
there must be a better option for 2450's surely?

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“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 9:20pm
Not sure if it helps but I had quite a few of the old Kam KXR2000. Great and loud but eventually all needed the boards re-soldering due to bad quality/heat


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: bee
Date Posted: 26 July 2015 at 10:06pm
if you can afford 2 x 2450's surly you can afford a better quality amp. The berrys are ok but as an entry leval amp....

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https://www.elements-audio.com


Posted By: jammin75
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by anulum anulum wrote:

Hi there.

Need some advice guys, 

Got pair of PD2450 8Ohm and Im considering the option to obtain Nuke 6000 dsp to fuel them and setup it for sub only.

is this combo gonna work well together?

tks


they very good for the price but not gonna power a pair of 24" i have powered a pair of 18" off the inuke plenty of spl but they can take more than the inuke can give i got mine for disco duty and its fine for that Smile


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feel the vibes !!!   "Who Feels it Knows it"            Strong like Lion              


Posted By: anulum
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 7:25pm
tks for answers guys, so iNuke is no option for pd2450...so what could be low cost option to power them? The pd's I have are 1000w aes, what kind of amp power is relevant to fuel each one? I would prefer to hang only one speaker per chanel.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 7:34pm
Aim for ABOUT 50% head room. IE 1500w at (im assuming) 8ohms. So 4 ohm a side would be closer to 2500w (ish) meaning you want a pretty heafty amp to get those 24inchers singing.

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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 8:19pm
You could get an NU4-6000 and run pairs of channels bridged, this will give you about 1600W continuous into 8 ohms.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 8:25pm
...that would be a good option! Whats the price difference if we took his inuke 6000 as a ball park?

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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: IanD
Date Posted: 27 July 2015 at 8:30pm
£299 from Studiospares, NU6000 is £285



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