Print Page | Close Window

PA Amps/Indoor 240V Mains/Failure types.

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: Amp Forum
Forum Description: The 'Stopping Jake Fielder moaning constantly' forum description...
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=70212
Printed Date: 28 March 2024 at 5:24pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: PA Amps/Indoor 240V Mains/Failure types.
Posted By: levyte357-
Subject: PA Amps/Indoor 240V Mains/Failure types.
Date Posted: 28 August 2012 at 4:41pm
Didn't want to further clog up "the wanted thread" on this.

Seems if certain amps go pop, and take out drivers, some automatically assume mains voltage might be contributing factor, even if indoor on ring main.

Are some amplifiers more prone to catastrophic failure than others, due to mains over voltage?

Over last 5 years, in regards to systems playing doors, typically on ring main/13A sockets, was told of approx 20-30 cases of Sub amplifiers

a) Catching fire,
b) Blowing fuse/components,
c) Blowing and taking out drivers

In all instances,

a) Other amps/hardware in rack/connected to mains still functioning
b) ALL  speaker/power leads tested previous to gig,


Amps which had simply blown a component/transistors/output stages/PSU sections, included EV, MC2, Crest, Crown QSC, Labgruppen, Powersoft, Peavey, Proline, Camco, Ecler, Behringer, Kam, Cmark, China Crest copies, etc.

In all these cases, only two particular brands had repeatedly reported  tendency to catch fire or blow all drivers connected to outputs when blown, or feed DC to drivers, when failure occured.

So for some of us, automatically considering mains voltage as a culprit is a non runner.

Hearing of certain brand blowing and taking out drivers/catching fire, is no surprise, as some amps have more reports of failing like this than others.



-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.



Replies:
Posted By: Dougies Music
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 9:24pm
Not following your point?

Are you asking which amps are prone to catching fire, or suggesting you know which certain particular brands of amps are prone to catching fire?

Or something else completely..?


-------------
http://www.dougiesmusic.com - http://www.dougiesmusic.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by Dougies Music Dougies Music wrote:

Not following your point?

Are you asking which amps are prone to catching fire, or suggesting you know which certain particular brands of amps are prone to catching fire?



Asking the question, why is it, if people report problems with "certain amps" around here, automatic assumption "by some" is user fault or mains issue.

However,  "typically", when other brands such as Crown, QSC, Crest etc are reported blown or with problems, typically normal reasoning/logic is applied/suggested, as opposed to assumptions in the above scenario.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: GAZ.
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 11:38pm
So, was anyone thats had one of these amps fail, actually measuring the voltage at the moment it failed and found it to be too high? or even few minutes after the failure?

I dont see how the over voltage thing can carry any weight otherwise.
And how high was too high?

Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.

-------------
100% Earth Moving Bass


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 30 August 2012 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by GAZ. GAZ. wrote:


Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.


My point exactly.

The other line is, well I have 1E06 of these amps in installs, and none have failed, so user must be doing something wrong.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: GAZ.
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 12:06am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:


Originally posted by GAZ. GAZ. wrote:


Anything can go wrong, just because its the expensive or presigious brand X or whatever, doesn't make it immune to failure.


My point exactly.

The other line is, well I have 1E06 of these amps in installs, and none have failed, so user must be doing something wrong.



Same again, even something that is known to be reliable will wear out or go wrong in some way eventually.

Get the same sort of thing all the time in the TV world.

-------------
100% Earth Moving Bass


Posted By: VentureSound
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 9:08am
I wonder if you put a roots program on telly it would catch fire? Tongue

No, but seriously, everything electronic fails at some point. However, more expensive things tend to use better quality components and/ or have better engineering to reduce this. IMO, things produced 20-30 years ago like the Crown MA and Crest amps were over-engineered and made properly, if you used them on 2 ohms etc, they wouldn't really grumble, and the air blowing out of them was cooler than it is today. 
The trend for everything to go lightweight these days has caused manufacturers to do things like reduce heatsink area so its no wonder stuff runs hotter and in some cases catch fire. 

Now, personally I can accept that an amp might fail at some point because its electronic and that's what happens, especially if I know i'm caning it a bit I kind-of know I had it coming. 
However, what I don't accept is if said amp fails and licks out 4-8 of my expensive drivers at the same time.  To me, that is a shit amp.


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 10:39am
The problem is though when I instal a amp it is only going to be working at around 50% at 4r before it hits a hard limit. When out on a job with a touring style rack I drive them a lot harder, Still try to keep it at 4r though.

A amp at 50% 4r as apposed to 2db before clip at 2r is going to last a lot longer.

If you want complete redundancy and safety from amps catching on fire and failing. Be sensible.





-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 10:56am
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:


If you want complete redundancy and safety from amps catching on fire and failing. Be sensible.


Indeed.

However, seems even if you are being sensible, some amps will still fail, and or catch fire/blow all drivers connected.

And as Venture sound eloquently put it, that is merde.


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 11:16am
Originally posted by VentureSound VentureSound wrote:

However, what I don't accept is if said amp fails and licks out 4-8 of my expensive drivers at the same time.  To me, that is a shit amp.


Next time buy FFA :) well defiantly give them a try! Not cheap but I am 100% sure your problems will be solved with top class British back up service.


-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: JohnnyPyro
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 12:18pm
Lev
 
I think you will find the biggest problem is ignorance and abuse.
I'm a firm believer in preventative maintenaince, esp having worked as a service engineer for a few years now.
The amount of stuff ive seen over the years is mental ," this amps shit, that light dont give out anything" and its always the units fault .. nothing to do with the fans are knackered and its full of crap LOL


-------------
Pyrotechnics... its not rocket science, well.... actually it is !! :o)
Powered by MC2 & XTA


Posted By: taurusty
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 4:33pm
I rem when Micro/Macrotechs were just introduced & they had a high failure rate.
All the old fogey's of the day were grumbling that their DC 300's were much better & Y did Crown change?
 
Same w the IT Series; ppl flashed back to the 'superiority of Macrotechs...
Could it also be the rosy halo of memory too?


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by taurusty taurusty wrote:

Could it also be the rosy halo of memory too?


"Rosey halo of memory", does not explain why some sub amps when blowing, insist on converting the voice-coils of your attached expensive subwoofers into "crispy duck".

Whereas most others don't... Embarrassed


-------------
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: taurusty
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 1:49am
True.
Could be inadequate testing/faulty design/lack of QC...
 


Posted By: djkeet
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 10:13am
There must be 100s of combinations of why things go wrong in Amps many have been mentioned I suppose the Techs are in the best position to answer this if they have the stats to collate.I do find I have to cut through all the crap distributors/retailers don't always provide you with an unbiased opinion,that's why I like these topics/forum they aim to reason around this.I don't like the idea about going on about China because its the west/commercial world wanting things for cheap to do this there is a push to make amps lighter,cheaper components etc thus driving down shipping costs.Before it was cheaper components and application So there is definitely a commercial element to this    

-------------
Soundbite


Posted By: kedwardsleisure
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 12:52pm
Maybe a little bit of modern amp design particularly from the cheaper end of the market is the designer simply milking established designs without fully understanding them. An analogy would be when the russians tried to copy the american B29 bomber during the war and used metric rather than imperial gauge aluminium. The result was a near identical aircraft that was way too heavy to perform properly.

-------------
Kevin

North Staffordshire




Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net