Line array Project
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7099
Printed Date: 24 April 2024 at 3:11am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Line array Project
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Subject: Line array Project
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:07am
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How about we play a little with this new technology... I am surprised that it had not been tackled yet in the DIY zone so, here it is a preliminary line array module designed by me a few days ago  it uses: P-audio P10/100MB for midbass, horn loaded (90Hz - 400Hz) Beyma 5G40ND for Mid , Horn loaded (400Hz - 3000Hz) http://prescomaudio.com/pdf/BEYMAPDF/5G40Nd.pdf - http://prescomaudio.com/pdf/BEYMAPDF/5G40Nd.pdf P-audio WN-D44 on PH14525 Line array horn - for high frequency (3000Hz - 20 000 Hz everything is horn loaded , an everything is in a compact package 700/350/450 mm W/H/D a single unit should be capable of about 126-127 dB continuous from 90-20000 Hz Punishers would take care of the 40-90Hz region what do you guys think ah, and a sim of the midbass section (9 units hung in free space (minimal for line array behavior ) fed with 9x300W RMS )  ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Replies:
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:27am
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Thata looks quite a lot like a project that is in my mind for a longer period. The difference is mine are with 1x15, 2x8 and 2x1 or1,4. Layout is just the same  Regards Marjan |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:41am
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I like to keep things tiny I have started exactly with 15" + 2x8"+2x1" but I came across a problem.. 2x 8" drivers would be too far apart (concerning emmision centers ) to sum corectly until the crossover point to the drivers, which would result in comb filtering => not a line array behavior anyway , by using smaller components I am able to reach higher SPL's/ cubic meter of speakers ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:53am
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I was considering that. However if i use 2x6 section i am affraid that it wont keep up with the 15 section and dont go low enough safely. (300Hz) But for sure is better to have more smaller that fewer bigger cabinets. What do you think, can alfa 6 be used? I have problem in getting other products here but Eminence and 18Sound. |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 9:54am
check out the LA-6 CB MR from eminence
------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: Dr Burnz
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:19am
what dispersion are you aiming to achieve? Would you not get some phasing problems if you were to walk from left to right? I guess which line array would you not get that problem... Looks good though, Very compact!
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Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 11:22am
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I would like to achieve about 90-100 degree horisontal dispersion about the phasing problems:.... well, a perfect loudspeaker is yet to be invented... until then we'll work with the technology we have ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: miniphil
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:18pm
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Sorry to rain on the parade, but this is a bad idea. Line arrays HAVE to be flown, otherwise the sound sh*te.
Designing the flying hardware and making it safe, so that you can adjust it to the nearest degree (at least) is not a trivial job. ------------- GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE!!! |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:25pm
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nobody said anything about them not being flown
------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: miniphil
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:35pm
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Sorry to rain on the parade, but this is a bad idea. Line arrays HAVE to be flown, otherwise the sound sh*te.
Designing the flying hardware and making it safe, so that you can adjust it to the nearest degree (at least) is not a trivial job. ------------- GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE!!! |
Posted By: moray james
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:54pm
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wondered if you had seen the Beyma comp driven line array drivers? WL5, WL4 and WL3. Will run from 800Hz, up to 20KHz. Regards Moray James. ------------- moray james |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 01 November 2006 at 12:58pm
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I've seen them, but they are a bit expensive , and do not offer any benefits when compared to the P-audio combination
------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 04 November 2006 at 10:39am
too much free time 8 units above 6 punishers  2 of theese and you're in business   ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: gingerbiscuit69
Date Posted: 06 November 2006 at 3:35pm
| should i dare to ask how much? |
Posted By: opus jody
Date Posted: 14 November 2006 at 4:58pm
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no
------------- Improvised Hardware Music http://vimeo.com/user9389813/videos |
Posted By: adambomb
Date Posted: 14 November 2006 at 5:20pm
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Its $12,999.00 here http://www.lightsounds.com/ - http://www.lightsounds.com |
Posted By: mrfuzz
Date Posted: 14 November 2006 at 5:42pm
| dont forget aussie dollars are 2.5 to the pound (ish)... |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 3:35am
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they are manufactured in China by soundking www.soundking.com I think they ar cheaper than 12000 Australian dollars dough ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 7:47am
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Hello! I repeat my message posted two days ago in New Projects : Line array: Well, I have already made line array with flyware. And sidefills and stage monitors and stage itself... Look here: http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Picture/Novokuznetsk2.jpg - http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Picture/Novokuznetsk2.jpg http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Image/MiniFoto/smNovokuznetsk2.jpg -
http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Image/FullFoto/FullDSCN9677.jpg - http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Image/FullFoto/FullDSCN9677.jpg http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Image/MiniFoto/smDSCN9677.jpg -
http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Picture/Novokuznetsk3.jpg - http://blackcatacoustics.narod.ru/Picture/Novokuznetsk3.jpg
Someone in the forum don't like this... |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 8:42am
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could you please use some other hosting for the pictures www.tinypic.com for example I was not able to open the the pics when I saw the links in the other thread ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: Charles_V
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 9:51am
| pictures are there - just that site is hosted on the slowest internet connection in the world. |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 10:41am
oh, well, I might as well take out the hacking arsenal... russian server here I come! got to see those pics, badly ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 10:55am
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Done ! here are the pics, for the other people that could not open them (stupid server timeout) http://i15.tinypic.com/2akjv3k.jpg - http://i15.tinypic.com/2akjv3k.jpg http://i15.tinypic.com/2nlz86d.jpg - http://i15.tinypic.com/2nlz86d.jpg http://i15.tinypic.com/2liwmra.jpg - http://i15.tinypic.com/2liwmra.jpg ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: james folkes
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 3:47pm
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i got about 1/3 of the picture most of the time, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less... nice one nexus, and nice one black cat! i'm sure we'd all like to know a little more about your system. those bass horns look even deeper than labs, they are your own design i take it, and i'm interested as to the different profile of the bottom cab in your hang, is this some kind of downfill special?
is it a horn loaded line array? from the way you can see daylight through the handle cutouts in one of the hangs it looks like there is a folded 15" on one side like a martin w8l. what soultions have you chosen to achieving a line source from the hf and mid band? james. ------------- mardy hippy. |
Posted By: Wayne Parham
Date Posted: 15 November 2006 at 5:13pm
ОЧЕНЬ ХОРОШО!
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BlackCat wrote:Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 16 November 2006 at 1:11am
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Hello! Thanks to all for the interest to my post! I'm sorry for problems with my hosting.
Some details around the design:
It is a horn loaded line array. Far field and near field cabinets are different to provide needed splay angles.
Top cabinets are 3-way triamp driven by dbx DriveRack PA.
Drivers: LF 12" B1204MS 96 dB/Wm 450 W RMS, MF 10" S1003 98 dB/Wm 250 W RMS, HF 2xHF2011. LF & MF from ML Sound (St.Petersburg).
Dimensions: W 748 mm D 792 mm H 400 mm
Weight: 80 kg
Far field cabinet
 Near field cabinet
   To aciheve a line source on midband MF horns are designed as an acoustic prizm that fits to all height of the cabinet.
On HF there is not line source unfortunately. Distance between drivers axis in each cabinet is 197 mm so there is not a line source. But placement of all HF drivers at one vertical axis allows to avoid interference in horizontal plane for my mind.
I tried to design something like a line source
  but I realized that the waveguides are too short.
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 16 November 2006 at 2:15am
Basshorns are of my own design too
 Driver 18" B1804M from ML Sound 98,5 dB/Wm 500 W RMS
Dimensions W 696 mm, H 876 mm, D 1218 mm
SPL calculated with AJHorn for 4 horns
 Crossover points are 140Hz and 5kHz.
Now I have FOH system of 16 top cabinets (10 far field, 6 near field) and 8 bass horns.
I used 6xCrown XS900 on LF, 4xCrown CS1000 on MF, 4xAlesis RA500 om HF.
More information?
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Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 16 November 2006 at 2:17am
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nice work the internal layout looks verry familiar... james, remember my 15" folded line array unit? the one that I had made a cardboard model for ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: james folkes
Date Posted: 16 November 2006 at 6:29am
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yup, that's vindication if you ever needed it nexus! that looks so much more tangible in the flesh actually, it really fits the box very well.
black cat, thet's really the stuff of legend, truly awesome project! you cross from the 12" to the mid horn at 140? that's quite low, but i suppose the 10" has a fair bit of mouth area. i like the prism phase plugs, it'd be nice to see a picture of them if you have any with the covers off. again, tremendous project, i'm really impressed! james. ------------- mardy hippy. |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 16 November 2006 at 8:55am
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Thanks to all again who discuss my project
Midband phase plug:
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 26 November 2006 at 11:32pm
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Hello! Here is an example of groundstack use of my rig 19 November 2006(someone will be happy...) Black cat also came on the last picture      Well, siberian winter begins. It's time to work on HF section...
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Posted By: gingerbiscuit69
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 6:03am
| liking the amp housing! lcuky its soooo cold outside, as they would overheat pretty quick otherwise! an awesome rig overall, very well made!! poor car susspension in the rear, hope that isnt your wifes car!! |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 11:03am
| Hmm. Isn't the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car? |
Posted By: specialjustin
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 11:12am
| Why, is it on the outside? |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 11:41am
| No, but as i know they are driving on the right side of the road in the Russian federation. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 11:46am
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And that is the most wrong place to mix from that i have ever seen in my life. You must correct this and park you car some 30 meters in front of the stage. this way you can give light signals to the performers every time they play wrong note.
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Posted By: Phil B
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 3:25pm
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I`m never gonna complain about being cold at FOH ...ever, ever again!
What do the performers do to keep warm...Fire shows.....!!! .p. ------------- Mostly harmless.... except if catering is shut. Solar Sound System Shennanigans.. http://diyhifi.biz/" rel="nofollow - http://diyhifi.biz/ |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2006 at 4:58pm
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Black Cat, are you using the car stereo for monitoring?
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 28 November 2006 at 12:38am
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The stage was placed at the narrow parking nearby the new trade center so 30 m or even 10 m far was grass under the snow. So it was the only place for me. It was good training for the ears to mix from here Using a line array system in such "venue" when listeners stand near the stage is not good idea because of narrow directivity of my array especially on HF and noticeable directivity of LF horns. HK Projector had to be there instead of us but snow and cold hindered.
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. In fact in Siberia and easterrn part of Russia used Japanese cars are very popular, they are 25% or more. I drive them for 10 years. Want to try? Let change...Posted By: phil HP
Date Posted: 03 December 2006 at 10:25am
good work black cat, hardcore indeed! ------------- HIGH-PRESSURE SOUND SYSTEM leeds heavyweight dub reggae crew. check out www.facebook.com/pages/High-Pressure-Sound-System and have a listen @ www.soundcloud.com/ruffaroots |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 9:19am
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Black Cat, where are you located in Siberia? |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 07 December 2006 at 11:25pm
Barnaul, The Altai Territory
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 02 February 2007 at 4:45pm
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Hey BlackCat, what is with that coloured snow fall?
I heard it on the news today, brown, yellow and green snow falled in the Novosibirsk area.
Is everything ok there. No toxic snow i hope.
Regards ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 05 February 2007 at 4:52am
| I heard the coloured show falled in Omsk too... 20 years ago I see coloured icicles at the roof of chemical factory. They looked toxic. Women from one it's department gave birth only boys, and from the other - only girls. Fortunately our chemical factories are not working for many years. But in Novosibirsk and Omsk they are still working... |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 06 February 2007 at 6:50am
I have an idea to re-construct existing bullet tweeters HF 2011 I used in my line array by replacing their horn and bullet to phase plug. Something like this:
 JBL and L-Acoustics use it in HF sections. Have anybody dealt with this construction?
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Posted By: d_20
Date Posted: 07 February 2007 at 9:11pm
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hello backcat I really need the larger speakerplan again because on website is quite small. How can I do with it. Thank you in advance |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 08 February 2007 at 4:56am
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Hello d_20 I can send You plans in AutoCAD 2006 if You tell me your e-mail.
Rewards are welcome but not necessary
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Posted By: d_20
Date Posted: 09 February 2007 at 12:09am
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hello backcat
ok please send it by this email mailto:d_20yong@hotmail.com - d_20yong@hotmail.com
thank you for your kindness
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Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 16 February 2007 at 1:06pm
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Interesting project.
I can't seen locate any info on the S1003 or the HF2011. I'm assuming the MF driver is closed back???
What is the upper freq of the MF? Any phase plug?
I've often wondered about using slot tweeters trimmed down for the HF line to keep the cost down. The available line array waveguides get expensive.
Mids would have to be smaller 4-5" drivers. But they would have limited output...
I keep visualizing slot tweeters coaxially hung in the MF flare. I'm not sure the MF response would be good enough to reach the xover of the slots without a phase plug.
LF could fold around just like in the original post. Sorry, I have no means of scanning a drawing here.
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Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 24 February 2007 at 10:54am
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Black Cat, How well does the upper mids array crossed over that hi?
I don't see how those 10s couple well above 1k or so...
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 27 February 2007 at 6:11am
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2 coyote You cannot find any information on loudspeakers because they are manufactured in St.Petersburg, Russia by Octava, and are custom-made. HF2011 are from Bielorussia.
10" MF loudspeakers have frequency response 80-6000 Hz and horns have phase plug so the distance between centers of horns is 200 mm. If them were a point sources they work as line array up to 1700 Hz. HF and MF may be crossed over at 1,7 k but 1) HF will need more equalisation in this case, 2) HF is not true line array at all. I plan try to convert it into slot tweeters if it is possible (see the previous posts).
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 27 February 2007 at 6:15am
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2 d_20
Did You receive my speakerplans?
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Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 03 March 2007 at 5:17pm
I don't know of many slot loaded HF units that will handle much power at 1,7K.
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Posted By: d_20
Date Posted: 11 March 2007 at 11:13pm
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hello backcat
i did not receive the speakplans yet . please send it to me again.
thank you in advance
from d_20
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 5:22am
But Vent phase plug looks like the conical horn, isn't it? I see no problem to load HF drivers to the conical horn. And most of them can work from 1,7k and even lower.
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 12 March 2007 at 5:23am
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Hello d_20 I just sent it again. |
Posted By: d_20
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 4:31am
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hello backcat i live in changmai
i receive email from you to send me.thank you very much. but i don't down load complease . please send it to me agin . thank you in advance
from d_20
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Posted By: ceharden
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 7:06am
| Doesn't ask for much eh! Only a line array design for free and lots of your time to send it too him repeatedly. |
Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: 13 March 2007 at 9:10pm
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Uh... could you send me a cabinet or two to get me started... |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 14 March 2007 at 1:24am
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Relax, gentlemen! You may copy my design 1000 times and spent lot of money, but you even did not heard how it sounds! What if it is full sh***t?
I invite you in Barnaul when the next gig will take place to help me to fly this monster of 2x800 kg to 7 meters high... Then you'll decide to do or not to do. It's only way...
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Posted By: d_20
Date Posted: 15 March 2007 at 3:31am
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hello backcat
I receive your email . but I con not download. thank you for your speakerplans
from d_20
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Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 15 March 2007 at 4:12am
| Why can't? Files are so small... Anyway you can use pictures posted 16 Nov 2006 to re-construct my design. Overall dimensions are given, loudspeakers are known. |
Posted By: HansA
Date Posted: 27 March 2007 at 6:04am
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Dang! Love your car mixing position. That gave me the idea to do it for real. Rebuild my slightly banged up Opel Combo to get a rear mounted mixing position. I could have a fold out mixer and a minitent, and all the equipment ready, mounted and secured in my mini-mini-van. Hmmm.. Eeeeeeexellent.. And im not joking :D |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 27 March 2007 at 7:14am
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2 HanzA
It was crazy to mix from the back of the rig!!! I had to do this twice this winter. The only you can hear from window is monitor mix + subwoofers. But the most stupid place for mixing was the room under the concert hall with one little speaker for monitoring (in 1985)
 |
Posted By: robertnisbet
Date Posted: 27 March 2007 at 8:32am
One way round this is to mount the MF drivers on the HF hon flare, in a 'V' type configuration. This allows them to be positioned closer together, allowing correct summation. The problem with this is the horn flare is then not smooth, causing disturbances in the HF air flow (not sure how to better describe this). Its a compromise though, and one that is used on some commercial line array designs. R. ------------- Robert Nisbet www.robertnisbet.com Event Production Services |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 27 March 2007 at 11:16pm
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It seems to me that even brands such L-Acoustics and many others feel free with 7" or 8" MF drivers make not smooth flares for HF  L-Acoustics V-DOSCIMO slot loading of 8" or som phase plugs are more correct for arraying of MF:
 Martin Audio W8L Outline Butterfly Nexo Geo HK Cohedra JBL VerTec |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 12:42am
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i'll put some Chinese version's up ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: heinrich
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 12:56am
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hi BlackCat could you post clearly drawings of your basshorn? lower cut-off is very interesting. ------------- .....power is nothing without control.... |
Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 3:18am
The last ~90degree horizontal expansion with the midwoofers will form the lowest octave pattern,there will be some reflections from odd shapes though.Dont really know too much about these line array specific C.drivers. |
Posted By: PoteirosCorp
Date Posted: 28 March 2007 at 1:14pm
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hi you all I ask exactly the same question about crossfiring drivers. The result of the investigation seems to be that, V config allows to have a wider dispersion on MF, but at expenses of some cancelation and comb filtering near the box" Correct me if I'm wrong cheers |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 06 April 2007 at 6:41am
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Of course crossfiring MF drivers will cause destructive interference and HF drivers firing between them to. But it will take place in short distances in front of cabinet. As we had learned at school, waves pass thru the other waves freely and not affect to each other. So at the distance we wouldn't notice interference. But we must choose V-angle so that it will be no gap on the axis of drivers as their directivity is frequency dependent.
A number of LA having 2 LF or 2 MF direct radiating drivers (EV and others) are not line arrays at all IMO because they can't form cylindrical wavefront. Further, horizonal directivity of each cabinet will be narrow but vertical - wide. And we will hear interference due to large distance between left and right speakers. At last, direct radiating LA is waste of power.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
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Posted By: tb_mike
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 1:30am
| Meyersound shows this graphically waves passing through each other since they are ACOUSTICALLY IN PHASE,or that 'thoughts on line arrays' british site. |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 7:10am
| Wave theory tells nothing bad about the phase of waves passing thru each other. Crossfiring MF drivers are in-phase of course. I'll try to simulate their behavior with EASE when I'll solve some problems with my notebook. |
Posted By: norty303
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 7:41am
Those arrays are built so that the LF and MF are within 1/2 wavelength so they act as a coherent source. Whether they can function as a true line source is purely down to the length of the line being used. At 150hz it needs to be in excess of 8m long.
Its questionable whether line arrays actually form true cylindrical wavefronts anyway. Meyer have shown that at very close range they do, but revert to point source physics once you get over 4m away from the source.
An interesting read....
http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm - http://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm ------------- My laser stuff: http://www.facebook.com/SubsonicSystems" rel="nofollow - Frikkin Lasers |
Posted By: turbodeas
Date Posted: 09 April 2007 at 4:27pm
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Hey,
Yeah we had a lecture by a bloke from Meyer about things like this: one of the other factors to consider is how the line is formed - a J hang is only a true line array for the straight section of the J; when the "curve" starts the elements are spaced too broadly for the system to act as a coherant line source (the drivers would be more than half a wavelength away from each other) as the distance between the front of the cabinets is greatened.... Therefore, you're losing the ability to create a true cylindrical wavefront towards the bottom of the array. Ideally, one would want a few seperate hangs, all angled so as not to cross dispersion paths and causing vertical comb filtering....3 hangs (of a straight array) arranged to point at 3 seperate areas of the field, for instance...Obviously this would be far too complex and costly for most hire companies, not to mention awkward to rig! Also, this raises the debate of Line source vs Point source, as using this "ideal" method, one has effectively just created a glorified point source system, just instead of each source being a true point, each is in fact a seperate array.... |------> /----> I can't really illustrate what i mean, if Macs had something similar to Paint on em then i'd draw a more detailed sketch! Blue skies, Chris. EDIT: Just more musings! ------------- http://www.hotmastering.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.hotmastering.com |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 10:37am
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Ok, not to open a new topic since this is already a line array one.
Here is what i have come up with.
6 cabs are ready and already played a gig.
Front grils have to be painted and rigging equipment is on the way along with 6 more cabs. Hopefully everything wil be finished by the and of May so summer season can start.
Here are few pics.
   ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 15 April 2007 at 6:01pm
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looking good, Marjan can we have a closer look at the HF horn? what is the crossover point between the midbass and the drivers? 15" ? ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 3:02am
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Mircea, mid drivers are 12's and it has two HF drivers. 12's are simple reflex loaded but building the HF horn was real PITA. It is a wave guide similar to the one that P-Audio has, but for 1 inch exit drivers. It is actually made from wood and it is a result of a two months testing with different length, with, angle and .... so lots of fire wood is left. That was the first actual use of the boxes and they played better then i have expected since i didnt have time to level them with the rta or any other analyzer. Crossover point is 1600 Hz. That is the lowest HF drivers can go as singles. I know that two will go lower because the power is divided to two drivers so they play only with half power, but i didnt want to take chance on the first event which was for my new client that was very pleased. I will have more time to play and try to eliminate the hi/mid from one of the 12's to see how it will sound. So this is still project in progress. regards. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: Mircea Bartic
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 3:59am
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I see.. I'll tell you a trick (maybe you already know it) put one of the rows of 12" -ers on a different channel of the amplifier and cut them above 500Hz or so (calculator is too far away now..) this way you eliminate some of the comb filtering you get between the midbass driver being so far apart(horizontally) ------------- general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research" rel="nofollow - http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 4:28am
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there is a simple cabinet here thats in most small venues that has 2 x 8'' drivers + a bullet in the middle, they sound pretty average, and are very cheap I went to Singapore recently and visited a record store which had the same cabinets but set up in Line-Array
 my god the sound was spot onI walked every where in the store and it was perfect
 just shows you what you can do with a little know how
I'll take a picture next time ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 5:58am
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Mircea, that is exactly what i had in mind Mykey, line arrays are not rocket science. You just need to understand how they work and it can be done. It is not simple (quite the opposite) and take significant effort to make them right. I am not claiming that i have made the mother of all line arrays but it suits my needs and can be improved in the future. Regards ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: djstefanos
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 8:36am
are they good? |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:05am
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Your LA looks good, Marjan! Want more details: drivers, plans or sketches, weight, dimensions etc. Cabinets are rectangular, not trapeziod? Do you plan to fly LA in J-shape? What's the horizontal dispersion of MF and HF? |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 10:29am
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Zdravstvuj Vladimir, Yes boxes are rectangular for the following reason. Plan is to have 8 per side so 5 will be rectangular and 3 will be trapezoidal. Like EAW KF 760/761 so top 5 will be flat and bottom 3 will make the J form. Horizontal dispersion is 90 degrees but the botom 3 will have 120 degree dispersion. PM me your email for the details. I dont want to reveal details on the forum because my competitors are also reading it. Dimensions are W95,H35,D50 and it wights around 25 - 30 kg. I dindt mesure it. Regards Marjan ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: turbodeas
Date Posted: 16 April 2007 at 5:50pm
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Marjan,
Looks awesome! Not meaning to be rude, but would you be able to PM me the detailed plans as i am very interested - your design is the first i've seen that doesn't look stupidly complicated. Also, if you look one page back, i made a post about the problems with J hanging....do you know anything about this?? Blue skies, Chris. ------------- http://www.hotmastering.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.hotmastering.com |
Posted By: mykey
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 1:50am
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J Hanging? I thought the term was "BOW" shape ------------- ......just all them hanging there like giant bananas. |
Posted By: turbodeas
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 12:22pm
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Hmmh I'd always heard it referred to as 'J' shape, due to the straight section at the top and then curving towards the bottom.
Maybe i'm wrong! Blue skies, Chris. ------------- http://www.hotmastering.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.hotmastering.com |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 17 April 2007 at 11:35pm
But KF760/761 are both trapezoidal: KF760 has 1.6 deg angle per side and KF761 has 6 deg per side. I have made my sabinets with the same angles so I can use KF760 Wizard.
For your design having 8 cabinets per side and venue length 80 m it will be the following:
  For the smaller venues 5 rectangilar cabinets per side may become not usable so i recommend you to build 5 trapeziodal cabinets and 3 rectangular per side if it's not too late.
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Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 2:41am
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Dont worry it wont be unusable. Look at L'Acoustic VDocs. they are rectangular and maybe the sweetest sounding LA. One rectangular and 3 trapezoidal boxes will be just fine in a smaller venues. ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 3:03am
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Black Cat, another thing. You can not use EAW KF760 Wizard to predict how YOUR LA will act. Your boxes may hot have the same angle spray as KF 760. Your HF horn is too short to have small angle of vertical dispersion. Dont worry. You are not claiming that you have build KF760 nor I claim that i have build something with same performance. If i have enough money for R&D i will surely do, but if i have 80% performance (in comparison with mayor LA systems) for 15% of the price, i am satisfied. Regards ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 18 April 2007 at 4:10am
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Of course i CAN predict it with EAW software. And you CAN determine splay angles for your direct radiating LA. As sensitivity of all bands is known we can predict sound levels too. In some cases when you need bigger splay angles the distance beetween the rectangular cabs at front may cause interference at the longer distances instead of coupling. I'd never believe blindly in tech specs of even brand named products, my (and not only my) experience tells me so.
I am satisfied in general with my LA too. It works close as i expected. My first LA was built in 2003 and it is working now. My competitors proudly own L-Acoustics KUDO now but in 2003 they did not unedrstood what is LA at all!
Regards.
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Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 13 May 2007 at 2:48am
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i wonder if these FAME line array cabs are any good: http://www.musicstore.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgSIbWhSR.WbURca0000000000DvrMHrQq?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=iRnVqHzmXF8AAAEQC4FQqhV1&CatalogCategoryID=nZDVqHzmz04AAAER2ZwvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList - Fame LT-10 Line Array 600W/16Ohm, 2x 10" The LT-10 is a high output, mid-sized volume Line-Array system. It allows for high coverage without the need for complex signal processors. Vertical arrays of up to 12 boxes may be formed through the integrated light weight flying hardware. Splay angles can be varied from 0° to 8°. Features: -Frequency response:70-16k -2-way, fullrange -Connections: 2x Neutrik NL8 -Dimensions: Front height: 343mm Rear height : 274mm Width :1084mm Depth : 530mm -Weight 80kg LT-8 Line Array 420Watt/16Ohm The L-8 is a compact Line-Array system, excellently suited to applications in such places as concert halls, houses of worship and theatres. The system can also be combined with larger systems for ideal supplemental coverage. Features: -Frequency response:180-18k -2-way, fullrange -Connections: 2x Neutrik NL8 -Dimensions: Front height: 281mm Rear height : 194mm Width : 718mm Depth : 586mm -Weight 36kg the 2 x 8" one looks interesting.... http://www.musicstore.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgSIbWhSR.WbURca0000000000DvrMHrQq?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=aWvVqHzmUzIAAAEQLaFQqhV1&CatalogCategoryID=nZDVqHzmz04AAAER2ZwvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList - http://www.musicstore.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgSIbWhSR.WbURca0000000000DvrMHrQq?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=aWvVqHzmUzIAAAEQLaFQqhV1&CatalogCategoryID=nZDVqHzmz04AAAER2ZwvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList ------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |
Posted By: everdark
Date Posted: 13 May 2007 at 11:55pm
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what's that crazy cheap offers?
any idea of construction? looks like charity )) |
Posted By: Disco Stu
Date Posted: 14 May 2007 at 10:59pm
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80kg ouch my back! ------------- All you need to know is: Sensitivity + Power Handling - Power Compression = Max Output My acts: www.myspace.com/thebowiexperience www.myspace.com/scheisseelektronisches |
Posted By: DJDNA
Date Posted: 19 May 2007 at 4:08pm
I don't see a true line array cabinet. It could be something, but only in 150 ~ 800Hz range. It is made to look as a cabinet for a line array. |
Posted By: TDA-Audio
Date Posted: 21 May 2007 at 7:40pm
russian brand EuroSound line array inside
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Posted By: heinrich
Date Posted: 01 June 2007 at 2:19am
 ok here guys...
its been long that ive been searching for explainations why those 2 low frequency drivers in line arrays are only seen from slots or meaning party covered and partly exposed?
are there optimum measurements for these? ------------- .....power is nothing without control.... |
Posted By: BlackCat
Date Posted: 03 June 2007 at 9:19am
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The slots are 1) a kind of phase plug 2) the throat of MF horn.
Such slots are often used in mid- and small-sized designs of LA like EAW KF 730, HK Cohedra etc.
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Posted By: heinrich
Date Posted: 03 June 2007 at 2:54pm
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so are there optimum measurements for this?
or do we still use some sort of software to acquire the optimum size ? ------------- .....power is nothing without control.... |
Posted By: login4
Date Posted: 03 June 2007 at 3:03pm
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TDA, they look like the exact same product as that fame sell, what do they sound like?
------------- CELTIC SUBSONIC SOUND SYSTEMS |